[Closed] I just dont get Enduro

Martha Gill started as an XC rider.

Are there events out there where XC riders can compete with downhillers?

XC races.

Im a fairly alround type of rider, but i feel that no matter how fit I got, I could never compete at Enduro as my DH skills will never be good enough ( ie my bravery 🙂 )

Work on your DH skills, rather than hitting the gym?

Enduro is always going to be for the downhillers who like a bit of peddling as its the descents that are timed. If you timed the ups as well then you are back with an xc race (maybe this is what you are looking for). Or just enjoy doing the races and don't worry about your position. I wouldn't come close no matter what the format!

To clarify, your gripe is that faster people would beat you in a race because there are faster people than you?

‘Traditional XC’ has come a long way too, some of it can be pretty hairy now too.

The ‘Everyman’ aspect of Enduro is that (in theory) it’s not as limited by specific kit etc and you can turn up on your Trail bike and have a go.

How successful this is depends on the level of the event you try your hand at I think and it might not be obvious without research what level you’re letting yourself in for. Apart from the strict training regimes, the top end of the field do very definitely approach the thing just like any other serious pro/semipro with all the kit advantages they can get etc.

I’ve accepted I’m not an Enduro racer. I can clear the terrain but not at anything like the speed to be competitive. Mostly because I’m trying not to get injured cos I’ve got responsibilities that landing myself in hospital would mess up, so I’m never fully committed and beyond a point that becomes dangerous in itself.

Katy Winton - started life as an XC racer then decided it was shit* and turned to Enduro.

*paraphrasing but she wasn't enjoying it according to her interviews etc

To me it seems that you have to be a downhiller to be in with a chance of winning

They're not winning cos they're downhillers, they're winning cos they are blimmin good bike riders.

I always thought pro enduro was for retried downhill riders

Try a gravelduro event. not technical but fitness matter... a lot.

It’s one thing riding a 5 min DH after being lifted... quite another riding 15+ min stage after climbing
GMBN did a video where Nino pasted Neil on a descent after XC 2 laps...
As I found out its not so easy to ride DH when your so exhausted and your heart rate is well into the red before you start!

Obvious XC racer is Ravenel... but Jolanda took the gold in DH at Windrock... she’d absolutely paste most people (including many of the blokes) if she ever does an Enduro!

Some good , solid STW replies to the OP. No one mentioned 'marketing' yet.

I get what he's saying...so what's the point of the climbs if they're not timed, why dont they just uplift instead and save some time & effort? I sort of enjoy the uphills on my 'Enduro' rides coz it helps with my fitness and I get to talk nonsense to my mates, but Sam Hill probably doesnt need to climb for no reason.

I've not noticed much TV coverage of the fireroad stuff on Pinkbike.

Having said that, Katy Winton did say on the Downtime podcast that she enjoyed the climbs as it gave her a chance to enjoy the scenery and chill out a bit (but that still doesnt mean it should be the majority part of a race).

Geologist - take a look at the Redbull coverage of the Czech round of the xc, parts are pretty full on and it looked like a course most of us would be challenged to ride uphill and down.

I’m struggling to make sense of your post (I don’t mean that in a bad way btw) but isn’t the whole point of enduro racing being a test of endurance, with a mixture of XC riding and DH, so ideally you’d need to be good at both to really to come anywhere? the DH riders that dominate the enduro scene are super fit because they have to be, so they're going to be strong riders in both disciplines, no doubt if they wanted to race XC more completely, they’d probably do equally as well in those races too, least you'd think so.

I think the thing for most people is to be "racing" against a group of mates who are at a similar level. Even though I only do a few Enduro races and a few XC races each year it's all about seeing how you compare to people you deem to be of a similar lever. I'd never threaten the podium in any category of any discipline but enjoy competing in races for a bit of fun (took me a bit longer to appreciate the "fun" part of XC racing 🙂 ) .

They could reduce the times available for the transitions, to since the best DHers as super fit it would just penalise normal folk more, or if the time resides too far they’d essentially become timed section too, which is a rather different sport!

I get what he’s saying…so what’s the point of the climbs if they’re not timed, why dont they just uplift instead and save some time & effort? I sort of enjoy the uphills on my ‘Enduro’ rides coz it helps with my fitness and I get to talk nonsense to my mates, but Sam Hill probably doesnt need to climb for no reason.

They are timed. You (usually) have a set start time for each stage, and if you are late, you get a time penalty. Or get canned. Some races are fairly relaxed and you have a reasonable amount of time, others I have done have been savage and even on 1h30m transitions I have only just made it in time.

The smaller stuff, doesn't tend to have timed transitions, or set stage start times because it's more 'grass roots' and trying to appeal to a wider audience (i.e. attracting the weekend warrior). If you start making it tough, you lose that customer base.

no doubt if they wanted to race XC more completely, they’d probably do equally as well in those races too, least you’d think so.

Case in point, Jared Graves raced, podiumed and won a few national XC races early in his 'enduro career'. Around the same time he also came 3rd in the DH world champs. Good, fir riders are good, regardless of discipline. I'm sure if he wanted to Nino could be a very good enduro racer too 🙂

Go and watch one of the World Enduro races online. They are not at all like DH races or XC races.

They are downhill, but with lots of pedaly bits, some of which go uphill and way more tech than normal riders can handle.

One of the Enduro chaps, Martin Maes, recently won the French DH race in La Bresse, he normally wins the Enduro races. He said the reason he won it was because the first section needed a lot of pedaling. I was there and watched it, the top bit needed skill and power through the pedals which was much more like an enduro. The DH chaps train for 10 second sprints, the enduro chaps train for sevearal minutes of sprinting.

I would have thought that DH riding and XC riding is very different with different riders being good at different things. I do not think a good rider can do it all.

geologist

Member

But what I dont get is how its aimed at being a race anyone can win.

It isn't. It's a race hardly anyone can win, because the quality of the top end of the field is phenomenal, and the range of abilities you need are arguably higher than any other bike sport. Not the sheer level of any one skill, but you've got to be good at more things. As a lot of DH pros found out- Rachel Atherton got her arse kicked in a couple of local races then decided it wasn't proper racing, Minaar got overtaken in almost every stage in his first EWS.

The reason it's so succesful with us knobbers is that it's a race that can still be great fun and be a pretty comparable experience even if you're 150th, whereas in XC and to a lesser extent DH, at that point you're basically there to make the race financially viable so the top guys can do their thing. Which is why so many race organisers do it wrong- UKGE was totally obsessed with the top 10%, when actually they're the riders the series could most easily have done without.

The lack of practice of each stage or balancing practice against running out of legs makes a big difference to me, a different skill to racing/practicing one track in my opinion.

But what I dont get is how its aimed at being a race anyone can win.

It isn’t. It’s a race hardly anyone can win, because the quality of the top end of the field is phenomenal, and the range of abilities you need are arguably higher than any other bike sport.

Yeah, its a race anyone can enter and finish, not win.
Take someone that's never mountain biked, give them a trail bike of some sort and half a year of riding once a week in the same sort of geographical location as the race, and they'll probably not die and enjoy it.

That one bike you own is probably the right one too (in the UK with travel increasing the further north you live), rather than having to pay another 4 figure sum for a vaguely competitive second hand race bike.

They’re not winning cos they’re downhillers, they’re winning cos they are blimmin good bike riders

At going down hill .

What happens when Pro DH racers do Enduro? Look at Ard Rock podiums last year. Pro DH racers are as not far off XC fit but generally don’t race Enduro because they are Pro DH racers – there isn’t the same money racing Enduro. A prestigious Enduro like Ard Rock will attract a few anyway.

Flip side is DH racing isn’t actually appealing to the average rider. Spending hours waiting on the side of a cold wet mountain for 5 minutes of racing or just trying to hang on… Enduro is more of a day out on a bike with a bit of racing thrown in, so really even at the back of the pack you can have a fun day out.

Some generalisations above I know, but I think it largely why Enduro is gaining traction that DH is not. XC is a different kettle of fish for sure, but to be at the top these days you have to be good at everything not just fit. Can XC be fun for the average rider? Depends how much you like being at the red line for an hour, I try to treat them as an offroad TT rather than pushing to race other riders.

Are there events out there where XC riders can compete with downhillers?

Yep... Enduro.

I think what you're really asking is:

"Are there events out there where XC riders can beat downhillers?"

And TBH here are lots of cycling sub-disciplines and niches, including Enduro, where an XC racer could win, but it's probably only Enduro that currently has the broad base appeal to attract both serious XC and DH riders as well as the more casual MTBerist...

The fact that being an "Enduro Racer/rider" is now a thing where it wasn't a decade or so ago says everything about where MTBing is headed... Overall I see it as a positive.

To clarify, your gripe is that faster people would beat you in a race because there are faster people than you?

Nail on head.

Enduro is indeed a great addition to the mtb scene. Shame it isn't streamed like dh is.

DH coverage is poor tbh, enduro would require a ridiculous amount of cameras, and even at that, as it's not just one run, wouldn't have the direct comparison from rider to rider that dh does.

the xc coverage is good though.

I always thought pro enduro was for retried downhill riders

Yeah, other than the fact Maes is faster than pretty much the entire UCI DH roster, wins enduros and DH events for fun.

Thanks for your thoughts all.

Nobeerinthefridge/thisisnotaspoon - you have either completely misunderstood my post or you're looking for an argument.
I have no gripe - I'm old enough, and long enough in the tooth to be comfortable with the fact that I would be/have been beaten by pretty much anyone. I'm simply voicing something that I've been pondering for a while and interested in peoples thoughts.

It seems to me that a downhill specialist arriving at the start of a timed DH stage , lets say 80% knackered would still ride a DH stage quicker than an XC specialist arriving at that DH stage 60% knackered, and also vice versa.

I think that a format where the timed stages include uphill sections, undulating sections and DH sections would be a better/more inclusive format. Or maybe have small parts of the linking sections as timed. Are there races like this ?

the xc coverage is good though.

we still never saw what happened to the Dutch lady that was battling Courtney... until suddenly she just wasn't

At going down hill

I’d say ‘At riding offroad’ - I’d bet my arse enduro race winners are incredibly talented at more than just going downhill.

take the uphills at a leisurely pace

Under current EWS rules you'd get a minute time penalty if you miss you start time by under 5 mins, if you miss your start time by more than 5 mins you get a 5 minutes penalty. Given how close the racing is now,  that would mean the difference between winning for Meas, at Madeira or dropping him down to 80th if he missed by over 5 mins.

That's why they rush to do repairs, or help each other out in transitions.  (like Meas has done, helping Sam with a puncture, or Ravenel pushing Katy Winton along)

I think you have be pretty competent all round to win

geologist

Member

I think that a format where the timed stages include uphill sections, undulating sections and DH sections would be a better/more inclusive format.

That's pretty common. TBH it's massively down to the area and the organisers- some places lack the vertical to go for all-out descending even if they want to. Sometimes an organiser will go to real efforts to add in or avoid pedals

If anything, this is a problem with the format- you never really know what you're going to get. But it's certainly not often all short downhill race style stages, if nothing else hardly any venues can do that. And "downhill" means different things, like, the grey mare's trail at Kinlochleven is 100% downhill and has some pretty full on committed sections (being essentially a walker's trail with a river running down it rather than a bike trail) , but it's also massively physical.

I mean this in the nicest possible way, but I think you just don't really have much knowledge of what it actually is, and you've made some wrong assumptions.

No offence taken, you’re right actually.
I’ve only ever seen a couple of enduros, all the EWS stuff , which I know isn’t typical of most UK stuff.

As soon as you start timing the bigger ups (not just having a time limit) that MASSIVELY favours the fitter riders who might not be as skilled on the downs.

If a rider is 10% faster on a 20 min climb, he’s 2 mins up. You try making up 2 mins on a 5min descent at that level...

I’d rather see someone chill on the climbs then attack the downs, rather than zip up a climb and mince down.

EWS stages can have uphill sections too. I know that the organisers at Olargues intentionally put pedally bits into specials on both days to spice things up a little and if I'm not mistaken Ainsa had one with a tough climb straight out of the start gate.
You just don't see these parts of the race stages because they aren't worth the effort of trying to shoehorn into a 20 minute show which only has room for the best bits.

I’m sure if he wanted to Nino could be a very good enduro racer too 🙂

Nino did an EWS race in it's first year IIRC and don't think he did that well.

(*looks at Roots and Rain...167th of 293, his worst race result of his career!).

I'm sure he'd do better if he tried again though.

geologist

Member

No offence taken, you’re right actually.
I’ve only ever seen a couple of enduros, all the EWS stuff , which I know isn’t typical of most UK stuff.

I think even then, you might be surprised. Like, the 2 EWS rounds I did were pretty varied terrain- but of course all the pics and videos and that were of the Peril, very little about the fire road sprints or the short horrible climb followed by the long pedally traverse. Plenty of people on here that have done more of the continental events that can tell more..

And also, even if it were 100% downhill, they're still pedalling like mofos and stages can run 10 minutes plus. I've never raced at La Thuile but I rode some of the stages and racing those would break me like a twig. 11 minutes flat out for Sam Hill, we stopped halfway down for a picnic.

The original argument walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

When you turn up the stage start of an enduro stage you aren't an xc rider or dh rider. You're a competitor. Simples.

I'm a fifty year old. 27 years ago I was a half decent roadie who bought a mountain bike. I committed every single BITD sin. 150mm Atac stem. Suspension boing bits made of rubber. Saddle at optimum height for pedalling. A complete dirt roadie who entered the dh stage at one BITD event (as you did) on the bike I had because it was my mountain bike.

Didn't clear a simple titchy gap jump for 15 years. Took me until 2007 to try full suss.

These days I have some skills downhill. Came to it late in things but love the process. Race enduros.

Practice makes a difference. If I have a sense of the terrain and I've got my confidence in a good spot I can turn a good result. If there are much more skilled /practiced riders they will always beat me. So what? Until you're between the tapes you have no sense for how much it is a race of not screwing up. The satisfaction /frustration quotient is almost always in my own head. It is cool. I find ways to ride at my best. By racing I've got better which is amazingly rewarding in itself.

Give it a go. Let it change you. Enduro is a journey.

I kinda get what you mean geologist. I think the reason it's come about is that xc, dh and dirt jumping were very defined disciplines with high competitions and lower level to enter.

Where as most of us were doing trail riding in its various guises from people blasting around Cannock to the more gravity alpine stuff. So they made a sport out of it, without the UCI who at the time would have not understood it.

As the riders at the sharp end are very quick and hard on their kit, enduro trail bikes have become popular which are much more burly and have more travel than I'll ever need. I'm not sure where that leaves trail riders like myself who only need 130mm trail bikes. I guess we've become another genre. I often think I'm an xc rider without the skills or fitness so I don't buy an xc bike.

I suspect that in percentage points, the average MTBer would be closer to the winning time in an enduro than they would be in a National grade XC race! The gals and guys who ride XC at that level are FIT, i mean properly fit, even those who look to be making up the numbers!

At the recent Cannock round, which isn't very hilly in the grand scheme of things, the climb back up to the start at the end of the lap was a good distance (i'd estimate probably 1.5km) of continuous uphil grdade, and the top riders where still standing up and mashing the pedals in a big gear when they got to the top! I'm a "typical" hobby MTBer, and i think i'd manage about 100 yards before i had to sit down and change down.......

Been said up there but thetransition times on ews are really challenging, eventhe pmba grizedale I did was 38km of riding (38km round grizedale is a long way) you need to be fit as a fiddle to get through that and then blast it on the descents. I wasn't.

I did the Boltby Bash this year. It was my first race since the POC King and Queen in '13. I would have preferred to enter the Enduro category but it sold out and therefore I entered the Sportive. I loved it and I'll look to enter other races, hopefully this year, if not definitely next.

I rode the Sportive in the same fashion as I would have rode the Enduro e.g. took the route as a whole and transitions steady with time to chill and chat and focussed on being as quick as possible on the descents. Then comparing Strava times with mates after the race to see how we did.

The Sportive format, certainly at Boltby, is the same route/course as the Enduro but is timed from start to finish. So if I'm unlucky and I only have the option to race this again next year I'll opt to get round as quickly as possible.

So maybe if other events use this Sportive format then this might be the option for you OP?

It seems to me that a downhill specialist arriving at the start of a timed DH stage , lets say 80% knackered would still ride a DH stage quicker than an XC specialist arriving at that DH stage 60% knackered, and also vice versa.

You're assuming they're all just DH stages though, which isn't quite right. And no, I'm not just looking for an argument, merely pointing out the saying enduro is just staged downhill races is off the mark. There's so much more to it than that, some of the EWS stages are absolute monsters.

I think it's brilliant, it's the most accessible form of racing to yer average Josephine, way easier to start off than both XC or DH.

Give it a go.

Thanks for the replies.
Well I’m willing to give it a go.

Can anyone recommend any good events more suited to a first timer?

The PMBA R1 at Gisburn is good for first timers (no time limits, trail centre trail stages), and get more gnarly as the series goes on.

Have a look at the PMBA events. Get sold out quickly but they are set up for most abilities and ages. It's well organised and very welcoming. Next round is at Lee Quarry.

Whereabouts are you based Geologist? Sounds to me like you need to have a go at MTB orienteering in one of the more hilly parts of the country. Fair bit of XC riding and if you are fast on the rough descents you can certainly make up some time too. But it all comes down to route choice and navigation in the end, making it as much about planning on the hoof as it is about out and out fitness. Don't get me wrong, the boys consistently doing well are bloody fit and fast, but given a combination of terrain and difficult route choices, it is amazing how level the field becomes.

This all presupposes you can read a map of course 🙂

Thanks Welshfarmer, I’m in Ludlow, so not a million miles away. I’ll have a look at those.

Current masters xco world champion won the masters ews emerald enduro.

@geologist

I can highly recommend this one (my local event and not too far for you). Plenty of proper off road riding and some pretty gnarly options available if you care to include them in your route choice.

https://www.bmbo.org.uk/calendar/details.php?event_id=1080

Where are you based geologist?

Swinduro is a good shout & definitely favours the xc whippet!

motorbike enduro had similar debates. some events the time limits on the liaison sections were so easy that every one made them without penalties, so a 4 or 5 hour event was decided over a few minutes of special test, which could be won by a fast motocross style rider over a pure enduro rider who could ride fast all day. Some events the time limits were so tight that half the field could be eliminated as over 60 minutes behind schedule. (houring out)

As someone who isn't XC fit, but likes a good technical climb, I have always thought there was something missing from the available races. I think the Singletrack Weekender races tried to address it by including lots of skills tests (mini trials, hill climb, downhill and xc) all in one weekend.

There was also a great event ages ago in Kielder that featured a 25mile loop with all sorts of tests (a few trials sections, a fire road dh, road/gate ettiquette, a hillclimb, etc thrown in (it was my best ever placing so I like to cling on to it 🙂 ).

I wonder if Malverns had anything similar last year?

So I tend to make my own up - for example Ard Rock - the climb out of stage 4. I try and clear that and then look on Strava for the day and mentally adjust my overall result to include that 🙂

In essence, I agree that there isn't a good all-round technical test of rider ability, but Enduros are still really good fun.

I wouldn't mind and undero timed climbs and you just have to survive the untimed descents.

it’s the most accessible form of racing to yer average Josephine, way easier to start off than both XC

I wouldn't say that, the Manchester Mid-Week Madness XC series is open to all, simple categories of Racer (you hold a BC licence) and Enthusiast (you don't) and they're £15 OTD entry, can be ridden on anything from a CX bike to an Enduro Sled and they are really sociable, laid back affairs - obviously at the sharp end they're very quick, think National Elite Level kind of quick, but for the rest of us.

I think that Enduro is just more fashionable in regards to accessibility, it's certainly not cheaper once you factor in the entry costs, the inevitable Enduro / LT trail bike, the pads etc, which not everyone has.

As someone who raced XC once, on my only mountain bike, a 15kg 140mm full sus, I can concur it is open to all.....as long as you don't mind being lapped by whippets on their 9kg mega expensive bikes. I have no problem with this or with the difference in bikes between front runners and rear end party goers. I race road and do OK, but the XC race I did was none technical, less technical than CX races I've done. It was more about going fast on multiple uphill sections, the downhills were very easy with no skills required. I do completely agree that UCI XC is now much more technical. (The XC race I did a number of the front runners had carbon 29er bikes with rigid carbon forks and very narrow 29er tyre)
I wouldn't even dream of racing Enduro, would love to have the skills to do so - but would more than likely be getting in everyone's way!

If you included steep technical climb special tests in an enduro event then they’d have to be observed, with penalties added for dabbing/failure, as otherwise people would just get off and run if it was faster - like in a XC race.
Ultimately, in an event against the clock, there are no bonus points for style.

I don't race because I don't see the point. I have no chance of getting a decent result at XC, Enduro or DH, unless maybe there are multiple categories and I put myself in the "easiest" one such as the "Midweek Madness" "Enthusiasts" category

steve_b77

Member

I think that Enduro is just more fashionable in regards to accessibility, it’s certainly not cheaper once you factor in the entry costs, the inevitable Enduro / LT trail bike, the pads etc, which not everyone has.

I think that out of the people that are likely to want to do a race, probably more have a longish travel these days than anything that looks like an XC bike. I reckon that's borne out when you look at, say, the glentress seven- a first race for a load of people and probably half the field are on trailbikes.

It's not something I've ever quite got either. I've done a few - Innerleithen MTB Racing's ones mostly, and two by No Fuss- the first Kinlochleven one and one at Nevis Range. In theory it should work nicely for me - I ride stuff like the Inners and Kinlochleven trails all the time on a big full suspension bike and enjoy them. But the racing never comes together for me - all these races were purely downhill timed stages, my fitness, which is my strength, didn't come into it. At the Kinlochleven one, if two of the stages (a big long one and a shorter one linked by a little climb) had been joined together it would have immediately removed the bias towards DH riders playing on a trail bike and made it a bit more of an all round event. A few more climbs in stages would really sort things out I think.

I should add that I also do a bit of XC racing and enjoy it and do pretty well at it - mostly endurance stuff. I think the Muckmedden 6 hour race format in Fife was good - there was one lap that you raced over 6 hours, but three times the course split with a much more technical "enduro" line and an easier "XC" line. The Enduro line was always quicker but you had to be a good technical rider to survive them. That then levelled the playing field between XC riders (although the front end of the field took the enduro line anyway - you'd be amazed what a decent bike handler can do on an XC bike) and the people going round on big 150mm trail bikes.

It's fun, it's sociable, you don't have to train for it per se, it's a chance to ride some of the best trails around, see a new area, you can race your mates and meet them at the end of each stage and have a bit of craic, it certainly sharpens yer skills, and did I mention it's fun?...

Na, I don't get it either. 😊

I think my problem with that is, I can do that on a normal ride. Why pay what now seems to be the thick end of £100 to do it to bimble around in the middle of the pack?

munrobiker

Member

all these races were purely downhill timed stages, my fitness, which is my strength, didn’t come into it.

I think you might be underselling yourself, the grey mare's trail's a killer for anyone that's not properly fit. Not from pedalling (though, to do it quick you do a fair amount of pedalling to keep the speed up) but from the length and general high physicality of it, I'm always dying by the time it gets off the moor and into the flume.