[Closed] I don't like how my bike handles (Following).

Not all bikes suit all riders... that's just entirely possible.

Angle the saddle nose down and reduce the bar height would help with the climbing and encourage a more centred approach for corners.

My pikes tucked under me a few times when I was going quickly. Things that stopped it were bringing my weight forward and fiddling with the compression and rebound. I think speeded the rebound up and increased the low speed compression. Although this was a few years ago and they weren’t massive changes.

What about trying a more adjustable shock like a cane creek? If it’s hanging on rocks you could reduce the compression in the shock? Not cheap but cheaper than a new bike.

I fixed the climbing issues by moving to longer bikes. From a 2005 giant reign to a geometron.

Have you tried shifting your seat back and forwards? I had all of my saddles right forward as my seat posts are so high. My hardtail is steep enough that it’s saddle is in the middle

Issue 1 : What fork are you using? What changes have you made to low speed compression. (needs more by the sounds of it)

Edit. What adjustment is available on both fork and shock, what have you done, and where are the settings at now?

sounds like your front suspension could be too soft and the rear is too high.

I thought the following was a 29" wheel bike? Are you running 27.5+?

Issue 2, assuming you mean rapid repeated chunky hits, I have found in the past was due to rebound not being fast enough, so the rear shock was packing down.

Issue 1 : sounds like not enough weight over the front wheel , but not sure why that would be, there's nothing especially extreme about that followings geometry. Is the bike too small for you?

I cant believe that your suspension is so far away from the optimal settings that it would cause this behaviour, especially as you haven't had similar problems with other bikes.

Have you checked all the important areas for unwanted play, eg worn bearings? check headset, wheels, suspension bearings.

EDIT : I presume this is a new to you frame (but second hand)? If so, is the frame all straight? nothing bent/cracked?

Issue 2 : SOunds like rebound on the rear is either too fast or too slow, or could be too much compression damping.

Issue 3 : Is the bike just too small for you?

I'm 5'11, so a large is a fine size, if not completely on trend.

The pikes are A1 RC's with a debonair spring from the B models. Not a lot of compressionn damping can actually be effectively dialled in; like most reviews, this gen of pike has nothing until about 8 clicks, when it comes on too hard. This is the same fork I had on the spider, so little has changed there save the length, spring and HA.

All stems have been tried raised and lowered, mainly as low as they will go.

The rear shock can't be changed - it's a unique size. I could change volume bands.

The frame is a brand new warranty replacement, which the owner sold to me. The suspension feels good with no binding, and I have fitted a RWC needle kit (with the correct size without any binding). The headset is brand new and all bearings are torqued properly with a wrench.

Joefm, I mean 27mm wide rims.

How any tokens are you running in the fork?

Sounds like you just don't get on with it.youve done alright with other bikes

I am 80kg plus riding gear, and I am running 3 tokens in the pike and enough psi to give me about 25 percent sag. I found with 30 percent sag I would dive loads. This hasn't changed between the Spider and Following.

The only time the following feels better is wide open rough tracks at high speed - e.g. a loose, rubble doubletrack.

Frustratingly, any change of bike would likely be expensive - my carbon wheels and pike are non-boost, can't be adapted and there really are very few non boost frames of this size and geometry left.

Surely you can pick up something used that will fit your bits

Have you considered shortening the fork? That would make the geometry more like your Spider.

Issue 2: could just be single pivot versus VPP/Maestro type setup

If I've picked the right models / configurations, Geometry Geeks seems to suggest that the Following has over 20mm higher stack height which could be affecting your ability to get over / weight the front end. You said you've tried setting the stem as low as possible - could you try some flat bars too (if you have risers)?

when you say its tucking the front do you mean your going otb?

Bars have a 20mm rise, so I could find a pair of flat bars. Good idea. I could also swap out a 120mm debonair spring into the fork which would steepen the head angle to about 68.9deg, and get more weight forwards.

By tucking under, I mean the sensation that the wheel is overturning - the bars suddenly rotating into the turn, wheel 'tucking under' and therefore one of two things happens - a front wheel washout (if low amounts of front grip) or the bike suddenly uprighting and wanting to push you over the bars (if you have a good amount of grip).

The rear suspension is a lot of fun when jumping or flowing around flatter trails - providing a springy and poppy platform to push off of - but when the trail gets difficult and technical the rear wheel feels like it's 'catching'. I will try less rebound damping, though I worry this will worsen the front wheel issue.

“By tucking under, I mean the sensation that the wheel is overturning – the bars suddenly rotating into the turn, wheel ‘tucking under’ and therefore one of two things happens – a front wheel washout (if low amounts of front grip) or the bike suddenly uprighting and wanting to push you over the bars (if you have a good amount of grip).”

I’ve been puzzling about this but I think I may have found the problem! The Following’s higher front and longer front centre and shorter rear centre means the front wheel is lighter when turning. If you steer more by turning the bars than by leaning the bike then the reduced front grip means you could turn the wheel too far, hence either understeer (low grip) or high-aiding (high grip).

Lower bars will help. Shorter fork may help too. This should also help with the rear wheel catching on things - at the moment I think you’ve got too much weight on it. And with the wandering front wheel when climbing.

If you look at the front centre to rear centre ratios for all your past bikes you’ll find the Evil biases the most weight rearwards and the high stack height further exacerbates that.

I have a V1 following that I bought second hand from a friend and I love it, quickest bike I've ridden for general trail riding. I don't suffer any of the problems you encounter and am on a large (I'm 6 foot, 75kg). The guy I bought it off got the fork and shock tuned and he said that made a big difference.

I'm running 120mm Fox 34 forks and the stock rear shock. Only 5mm rise on the bars with 10mm spacer (from memory). Suspension is always in the low position. The bike instantly made me quicker and massively improved my cornering.

Either:

Stop changing bikes so much.

Or

Get a new bike.

HTH.

Chiefgrooveguru - that's helpful. I think you may be correct. Another way to describe the unnerving sensation is that the wheel suddenly, and without much input will turn itself into the corner more than expected.

I will try and drop the front another 20mm with flat bars, and will try a 120mm spring in the pike before I abandon it.

Should my riding technique have noticably changed from a Spider to a Following? The Spider just felt telepathic, like I could point my hips where I wanted to go and it would go. The following feels like it has a mind of its own.

its sounding to me like its a body position issue.

Hi
I would echo MRanger.
I’m the same body type as him and ride the same bike and have none of the issues you describe.
FYI the shock can be changed-mine came with the same as yours and I’ve fitted a Fox Kashima DPS which is much more tuneable.
My fork is a Fox 36TALAS which I run at 135mm normally and extend to 150occasionally for proper steep lakes descents.
It’s an awesome bike so I think as others have said this is a set up problem
Cheers
Steve

Bars have a 20mm rise, so I could find a pair of flat bars. Good idea. I could also swap out a 120mm debonair spring into the fork which would steepen the head angle to about 68.9deg, and get more weight forwards.

By tucking under, I mean the sensation that the wheel is overturning – the bars suddenly rotating into the turn, wheel ‘tucking under’ and therefore one of two things happens – a front wheel washout (if low amounts of front grip) or the bike suddenly uprighting and wanting to push you over the bars (if you have a good amount of grip).

I don't think shortening the fork would make this any better it's not a particularly slack bike by modern standards, and modern stuff seems to descend more predicatably, so wouldn't mess about with that. If you can lower the bars, though, that might. Steepening the head angle would make this sensation worse if you are talking slow techy stuff. I kind of assume this would translate to higher speeds too.

Are the forks working properly? If you're anything like me, the damper will have been serviced zero times.

I think it your body position. I learnt that with short chainstays you need to weight the front more otherwise it just washes out.
It takes time to adjust to a slack ha and short stays

What pressure are you running in the shock?
I found the bike rides best with 130mm fork, 50mm stem with bars set quite low - it sounds like you aren't weighting the front end enough and the front wheel is losing traction.
The bike really rides best if ridden aggressively with weighting the front end.
I preferred it in LOW position although this required even more aggressive riding style so it's interesting that you noticed switching to the LOW position made the issue worse as to me this would indicate a lack of weight over the bars when turning.
Is the rear end feeling harsh when you are using the rear brake downhill over rough ground?

I had a following for a few years. For me, It always handled better with the forks at 120.

As people have said, consciously weighting the front will also help.  This was something that I had to adapt to.

I never enjoyed steep climbing on the following and experienced what you describe when I had the fork set to 130mm. Sliding the saddle forward in the seat post will help with that, but lowering the fork to 120 will help more.

if you measure the axle to crown of the pike then look at the geometry chart for the following you’ll see that the A/C that evil quote for a 130 fork is actually the A/C for a 120 pike.

In my experience 120 is as long a a fork as you’d want on a v1 following.

edit: which is the opposite of what was said above and to add to that, I preferred the high position.

Of my two MTBs, both have the same reach, one is a bit longer in front centre but much longer in rear centre, whilst the other is almost as long up front but really short out back. And with that bike there are two ways to ride it - you can either go with high bars and move plenty when you ride, so you physically push the front in when you corner, or with low bars so you’re always weighting the front.

Strangely it doesn’t work so well to go about halfway - it’s like you can’t dynamically weight the bars as aggressively when your posture is always weighing them somewhat.

I imagine the Following is similar - either treat it more like an XC bike and go for a low front and minimal movement or treat it more like a DH bike with a high front and be very active.

I had a V1 Following for a while. Superb bike! Loved it to pieces... It definitely benefits from a fork that doesn't readily give up too much of its travel. The original Pike isn't best suited I find, I ran an MRP Stage on mine and it was much better. I preferred mine in the low position, and also ran the fork @140mm too... Yes, the climbing was slightly compromised, but I just shoved the saddle all the way forward on the rails and kept my weight forward as best as possible.

Funnily enough, I experienced the "tucking under" sensation you describe on a couple of bikes since the Following, and have actually attributed it to the increased 51mm offset forks. I've found that on longer front centre bikes, especially with slack(ish) head angles, it's more difficult to weight the front tyre than on bikes of old, and the increased offset doesn't help here and though it sharpens up the steering, often this isn't actually a benefit anyway... Running 44mm offset forks on my current Evil Offering, and it's sooooooo much better for it! A mate fixed the same sensation he was experiencing on his Whyte G-160 by fitting a 15mm longer stem than stock, which brought his weight forward and calmed the steering down too, but has made the saddle to bar reach a little uncomfortable!

Personally, for now, I'd shove the saddle forward on the rails, take a volume spacer or two out of the forks (and run the pressure harder to compensate), and ride it like you stole it!

What front tyre pressure are you running incidentally?

“A mate fixed the same sensation he was experiencing on his Whyte G-160 by fitting a 15mm longer stem than stock, which brought his weight forward and calmed the steering down too”

I swapped from a 50 to 35mm stem and then back again. Going back to the 50mm made it easier to weight the bars and really weirdly made the bike feel smaller than the 35 (it felt too big with the 35). All I can guess is that the more nervy steering with the shorter stem made me keep my weight further back, being less confident to lean on the bars, so I was having to stretch my arms more to reach them.

I usually run somewhere around 20psi in the front, and about 22 in the rear.

Yes, the stiffening is often with some brake applied - perhaps this is just single pivot brake jack.

I can understand a front wheel washout being caused by a lack of weight on the front end, but how does that cause the wheel suddenly to turn in more than the bike is leaned?

I've experienced the front wheel tucking in on other bikes but not on The Following. If you aren't noticing it being caused by an initial loss of front wheel traction and subsequent sudden hook-up of the front tyre then it could be caused by an imbalance between your fork and shock. If your fork is lacking support it may be diving too much in the corner with the end result being your wheel suddenly tucking in as your weight is pitched forward. Try increasing LSC or fork pressure and see if that helps.

Yes I also noticed brake jack with this bike - if you can stay off the rear brake over the rough stuff the suspension is very good.

Thanks neiladams, that all makes sense. I will have a chat with someone local about perhaps having a play with my charger 1 damper to see if I can actually get some effective compression damping.

I don't notice much in the way of pedal kickback, but now you mention it brake jack is noticable by comparison to dual short link bikes. Do you have any advice on tokens for the rear shock on the following? My sense is that it is a very progressive frame already - but I am probably 85kg with riding gear and the frame has a large volume air can.

The rear suspension is a lot of fun when jumping or flowing around flatter trails – providing a springy and poppy platform to push off of – but when the trail gets difficult and technical the rear wheel feels like it’s ‘catching’.

That sounds like single pivot behaviour - pop in some brake jack and a rear weight bias and you'll feel it through your feet. My old Sub5, an old 5 and old Patriots I've ridden felt similar to that - they had pivot just about big chainring, so similar to your bike.
Personally I found it a characteristic I could work with. Hover bike when sat pedaling, something to push against and 'pop' when descending. It made you work for speed, rather than steamroller and let the suspension do it's thing unaided.

They shipped from Evil with 0 volume reduction bands in the Monarch. I settled on just the one extra band - I found any more and it just felt too progressive. I'm 95kg ready to ride and was running 285psi for around 28% sag - the shock does need relatively high pressure.

“now you mention it brake jack is noticable by comparison to dual short link bikes”

That’s mostly placebo effect. The difference in anti rise (brake squat) for single pivots vs all but Horst link style four bar bikes is very small.

To calculate it you just draw a diagonal line from the rear tyre contact patch through the pivot point and another line vertically from front tyre contact patch to the height of the systems centre of mass. If the diagonal line crosses the vertical line at the centre of mass height you have 100% anti rise, if it hits halfway up you have 50% anti rise.

It’s only four bar bikes with common rotating links (not ones where the top link hangs from above like on a Bird) that have their effective pivot point way out forwards. For pretty much everything else the pivot point hovers close to the top of the chain ring.

On single pivot bikes without a linkage (and thus with pretty linear kinematics) the lack of progression makes the early part of the travel stiffer and that can sometimes feel like brake jack when it isn’t.