[Closed] Hydraulic Road Disc Brakes - confirmed

This is good news!

For you and a few other biffer mountain bikers to whom road biking is a sideline. Here's some news for you - you're not the majority of road bike riders. Most roadies have never used a disc brake, and aren't so in love with the spurious advantages.

The only *possible* arguments against road bikes with discs is that the chassis has to be stronger and therefore heavier in some areas (some of which can be recovered with disc specific bikes) and a slight aero dis-advantage.

You seem to have forgotten wheel changes and neutral service, cost, lack of compatibility... apart from that the issues you mention are nowhere near as trivial as you imply - do I need to go on proving you've not actually thought it through properly?

There's no reason for wheel changes to be an issue IMO, if mfrs sort that out.

Roadies are happy as mtbers to spaff £££ on the latest kit..I don't think that would be an issue.

Given you can get disc compatible mtb forks @ 500gm no problem I don't think frame/fork weight/strength is an issue.

BUT...the main benefits of disc brakes are in crap weather, so I don't yet see the benefits for (most roadies) racing,, until the weight comes down, and the pros use them, in which case it will be business as usual.

My dad loves to remind me how Mr Campagnolo once said

I make my bikes to go, not to stop

Wether or not it was Mr Campag that said it, I get where he's coming from. Road bikes are built for pure, unadulterated speed. Making them heavier/more complicated/draggier/noisier/more expensive for the few extra nanoseconds you might gain by braking slightly later into a corner just seems utterly pointless.

Re: experience. I'm a podgy amateur who seeks out the nicest/nastiest hills in Scotland and rides them massively cack-handedly, so technically in the demographic that would benefit from/desire hydraulic discs the most, in fact, I even ride Sportives on a team edition bike WITH MATCHING TEAM TOP! And yet I'd still fit electric gears before I fitted discs...

Great thread....ha ha.

compatability has to be a major issue as aracer and Mrmo say.

i have a number of road bikes and swap wheels between them all the time. imagine the hassle of having to shim up all teh different hubs etc (compared to a 10 second wheel change and a quick tweak of the brake)

The hassle that this would cause on the pro circuit isnt even worth thinking about.

Main advantage for pro's (which almost doesnt apply to all the chippers on here) is that the rims dont heat on long descents and therefore no rolled tubs.

Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.

You dont need massive stopping power on road bikes (frankly I find clean pads, clean rims, set up properly are more than adequate for road races / crits)

I make my bikes to go, not to stop

Hmmm...that logic must be right, I mean the fastest cars, like in F1, have rubbish brakes, don't they?

Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.

Cos no one is manufacturing them, so no on can make money out of them.

Roadies are happy as mtbers to spaff £££ on the latest kit..I don't think that would be an issue.

roadies spend money to go faster, not to go slower. Have a look at a lot of roadies brake pads and ask how many years they have got out of them? I remember one rider complaining their rims wore out after 8 years, felt they had been short changed.

the way i see it a nice set of carbon 50mm rims or a set of disc brakes, guess where my money is going.

If a buy a new bike and it has discs on it so be it, but i am not going out to buy a set.

Miguel Indurain raced with hope disks about 10/12 years ago to test them out. Why has no one bothered since. Why have they not been used at Paris - Roubaix, why havent people raced them in non UCI events.

Cos no one is manufacturing them, so no on can make money out of them.

my point being that if the best cyclist of the time tries them out and jizzes himself because they are sooooo much better than rim brakes then why the dead air.

A good idea is a good idea is it not ...or another view was that he just didnt see the benefits (if at all)

mrmo I agree road discs probably hahve little advantage for a clubman's summer/race bike (you did read my post?)

MW Indurain "best cyclist of all time" ❓ even if he was (that's a whole other thread or probably forum) he probably said "yes they work better but they're way too heavy"...shimano et all will get the weight down, now there's the UCI weight limit on bikes that's not even relevant.

It's not about what any "best cyclist of all time" says, it's what will sell, what the market is ready for etc.

i have a number of road bikes and swap wheels between them all the time. imagine the hassle of having to shim up all teh different hubs etc (compared to a 10 second wheel change and a quick tweak of the brake)

Accurately made this should not be an issue at all. I have run two sets of wheels in an MTB without having to reset the brakes, they don't reset the brakes for wheel changes on racing motorcycles. Just needs the hubs and forks machined accurately in the first place instead of using the slotted mounts to take up manufacturing innacuracies

mrmo I agree road discs probably hahve little advantage for a clubman's summer/race bike (you did read my post?)

I read your post, the way i look at it, summer bikes you spend the money on fancy wheels, winter bikes, you look in the parts bin and use whatever crap you having kicking about.

Neither is a very good starting point for upgrading to discs. Note upgrading, new bikes will come with discs i suspect within a few years, but it is going to take a long time for them to become normal, simply because road upgrade scales are a lot longer than mtb ones.

mrmo - Member
, winter bikes, you look in the parts bin and use whatever crap you having kicking about.

I guess I am an anomally - I like to have working brakes, and not to have to replace rims every year. I spend more time on it than my summer bike so I'm happy for it not to be shit.

I get your point re. upgrade cycles being slower for road and specifically winter bikes tho.

My money is on discs being commonplace on road bikes in 5 years.

TJ, not as simple, you have one mtb with two sets of wheels,

Roadie senario, two or three bikes and a similar number of wheel sets, a nice set of carbon race wheels, some alloy training wheels, maybe a set of light climbing wheels, maybe a rear disc for the tt bike.

Your summer race bike and winter training bike will probably have the calliper in slightly different places which means having to play around with shimming the frame and or disc.

If they are all made accurately to the same spec there should be no issue - get the calliper in the sameplace relative to the dropout and the disc relative to the axle - bingo.

It does mean they would not be able to get away with the level of manufacturing accuracy tht especially post mount discs do now.

I guess I am an anomally - I like to have working brakes, and not to have to replace rims every year. I spend more time on it than my summer bike so I'm happy for it not to be shit.

I just bought old stock campag centaur callipers for circa £30, they offer me enough power and control , the rims are currently 4 years old, something i can live with. For comparison i wore out a set of sunset 2(3?)17's in 9 months on an mtb, then went to ceramic rims.

Discs make sense on a mtb simply because rims get trashed so quickly, not so much on the road bike.

cynic-al - Member
mrmo I agree road discs probably hahve little advantage for a clubman's summer/race bike (you did read my post?)

MW Indurain "best cyclist of all time" even if he was (that's a whole other thread or probably forum) he probably said "yes they work better but they're way too heavy"...shimano et all will get the weight down, now there's the UCI weight limit on bikes that's not even relevant.

It's not about what any "best cyclist of all time" says, it's what will sell, what the market is ready for etc.

read the post

best cyclist of THE time......not All. (Clearly he isnt because thats Sean Kelly :-))

TJ - different wheels/hubs on different bikes and you expect them all to just drop in and not rub. It doesnt happen in practice. My point being that you can drop any wheel into any frame currently (hence Mavic neutral service)with no problem other than to possibly move the QR on the road brake.

It does mean they would not be able to get away with the level of manufacturing accuracy tht especially post mount discs do now.

Ah, so now we're into "that's not an issue - they just need to solve this little problem"

I don't see the point. I have three MTB's, one with Hope hydralyics absolutly fab, one with V's absolutly fab also and one with canti's, these are cheap and nasty and not fab.

My point is there is nothing worng with rim brakes with the right pads. If I rode a tandam then I can see the point but on a road bike I cannot see the how this would help me at all. I have no trouble stopping even with the cheap pads in my Miche brakes.

There is no technical reason why the location of the components cannot be done accurately enough to get everything interchangeable. Its commonplace in the motorcycle world - no shimming required.

almost all my mtbs are IS mount witout adaptors and every combination I have tried ( between half a dozen bikes) just drops in with no rub.

If you don't want discs fine - but the interchangeability while needing accurate machining is not a dealbreaker.

Interesting thread. I'm not a roadie, but in my years in a bike shop I observed the following hundreds of times....

Roadies are generally massive bling whores, and fickle with. Far more so than mtb'ers. Many roadies will "need" a new bike if they change clubs, so it matches their kit. Or vice versa. Or they "need" shoes to match their bike. Or a bottle to match their bike. Or glasses to match their shoes. Or their helmet must match their bike, or their kit, or both. If their bike came with dura ace then any replacement parts [i]must[/i] be dura ace etc, nothing less will work.

There aren't anything like as many mtb'ers running around in assos or rapha esque clothing, and most of us would balk at the idea of spending several thousand pounds on wheels, whilst many roadies consider this expenditure fairly normal.

If a pro wears, rides, eats, embrocates with whatever, they must have it. On the whole if it's shiny and expensive and used by pros they need it.

To say roadies are resistant to change is daft, dramatic technological change just doesnt happen to them that often. Disc brakes will be sold on the basis of braking later and braking less, therefore making you faster and they'll eat it up. Because they have f*ck all clue about bikes other than the colour, the price and the brand name.

Surely one of the reasons for multiple/training/Winter wheels is so that you don't grind away the rims on the good set? Remove rim wear from the equation and it alters the dynamics.

The cable routings on some of the latest TT bikes with concealed brakes can be a bit convoluted, making it difficult to get good brake performance. Concealed hydraulic lines running through the bars and frame eliminate this problem, which is one of the reasons the big manufacturers are interested for top end TT bikes.

For road-racing bikes, I don't think there is such an obvious case for rim or disc hydraulics at the moment. Good quality cable operated rim brakes are very effective, and I think there is still an overall weight penalty for disks and disk forks.

Great option for utility road bikes, however. I have been running Avid road disks on my commuting/touring road bike for around 9 years now, but I would be very interested in switching to a hydraulic option if it was available.

muddyfunster - Member
Interesting thread. I'm not a roadie, but in my years in a bike shop I observed the following hundreds of times....

Because they have f*ck all clue about bikes other than the colour, the price and the brand name.

what a knob 🙄

Margin Walker

what a knob

I'm a knob am I? well you're and unimaginative knob. If I was a zoo keeper and I'd observed that most chimps like to fling poo, and I said " The majority of chimps like to fling poo" it might not be a popular opinion with chimps, or chimp lovers, but it would be an opinion backed up by experience.

Hmmm...that logic must be right, I mean the fastest cars, like in F1, have rubbish brakes, don't they?

Roadies are generally massive bling whores, and fickle with.

Buy a road bike, make it fit. Done. Spend the rest of your time and money trying to look good.

Buy an MTB, change any crappy stock parts that will just break/require endless looking after, then spend the rest of your time upgrading/replacing as stuff wears out or proves itself inadequate. Be thankful if you ever have the time to splash money on sexy kit that looks good.

I'm with muddyfunster, having worked in LBS also - the majority of roadies are not at all technical in the way mtbers are. Margin Walker appears to be the rare exception!

13FM - I too have said the advantages are marginal for pros (bar bad weather riding), it was your implication that crap brakes make you go faster that I was "pointing out".

BUT...the main benefits of disc brakes are in crap weather, so I don't yet see the benefits for (most roadies) racing,, until the weight comes down, and the pros use them, in which case it will be business as usual.

Or the main benefit are going down cols at around 60km/k as well (I know it's irrelevant on an UK based forum).

As per weight. There is two issues about it, pros and joe average rider. Pros... Well contrary to popular belief pros aren't as obsessed as your average racer wannabe with weight. The would happily gain a couple a hundreds of grams for something they perceive of being beneficial (good example is dropper seat post in enduro racing). Plus as Al said, all bike are now under the minimum weight limit. So it will be some disks rather than some lead.
Your joe average roadie, more than happy to flash cash on something that will help him and his beer belly stop more efficiently. Which obviously leaves us with the remaining of the neighbourhood champion. Maybe disk brakes should be sold with a bottle of MTFU and some humility potion.
Second. I am not quite sure disk will be heavier. Most of the braking system is made of rather heavy iron/carbon alloy. Back in the days, the formula B4 in 160/140 was as light as a pair of XTR V-brakes.

And third the wheel change. Well maybe you should start buy putting some disks on your MTB and see how easy it is to swap wheel...
I Have yet to come with a problem when the disks are of the same diameter.

And yet, the cycling equivalent of F1 cars, i.e. TdF bikes, have managed fine on cable actuated callipers for years etc. etc.

And F1 cars have manage fien for years on brakes that would be put to shame by those in a modern twingo... your point being ?

13thfloormonk

You know why? Probably because you can assume road bikes will just work, instead of having to labour over which component will actually suffice for you riding style/conditions.

No, nope. That's not it. It's a completely different sport, and attracts different personalities. I don't believe roadies are obsessed with how they look, how their bike looks and how everyone else looks because their bikes work well, I think it's part of the culture of that sport.

The average mtb enthusiast might struggle to name ten pro riders whereas your average roadie is much more acutely aware of goings on at the cutting edge of their sport and can spend hours debating who's doping, who's not doping, who's in shape, who's moving where etc etc. That's probably indicative of a bigger and more mature sport, and a more mainstream and readily available media feeding it, but it still results in enthusiasts who follow their teams in much the same way a soccer fan does and is capable of gossiping endlessly much like women reading hello or ok. I think the upshot of this is a stronger aspirational urge to look like "that guy" who ever that might be.

Which is why I believe if pro tour riders used disc brakes they would soon become a must have.

13thfloormonk

Buy an MTB, change any crappy stock parts that will just break/require endless looking after, then spend the rest of your time upgrading/replacing as stuff wears out or proves itself inadequate.

Not if you spend 4-5k on a custom build and you know what you're doing. And anyway, mtb is a much more dynamic sport, we ride in all weather, on all surfaces, and ot's much more abusive. It's the nature of it. And the people it attracts tend to like the outdoors, not be afraid to get their hands dirty and enjoy messing with bikes and the associated gadgetry.

I'd imagine that the buying public will actually be the guinea pigs who will help the manufacturers develop road disc brakes until they get to a point where any bugs have been ironed out ,then the Pro's may start using them IF the Uci allow it.

Pro roadies get massively pee'd off if they have a wheel change and the replacement has the wrong section rim or incorrect cassette ratio so I would imagine issues with discs rubbing,problems with braking would compound this.

However I do think it will come ,personally did not see the point of elec shifting when it was first mentioned,having since read numerous reviews seems like the positives outweigh the negatives.

Magura did a road hydraulic brake years ago

Not integrated with the shifters though was it so irrelevant to this mass debate.

Brakes don't need to be the best they just need to be good enough. Dual pivot caliper brakes on a racing bike are (subjectively [b]and[/b] objectively) "good enough" once you get to Ultegra level, so discs are overkill. Mind you I haven't raced a road bike for over 20 years now so WTF do I know.

Disclaimer: I lust after Campagnolo Deltas because they look "the shit". They work like shit too, but hey, performance isn't everything.

unovolo - Member
I'd imagine that the buying public will actually be the guinea pigs who will help the manufacturers develop road disc brakes until they get to a point where any bugs have been ironed out

Nope - no way for brakes - imagine the potential for claims, esp in the US.

i don't think he means 'untested prototypes'.

maybe just a little 'under-developed'...

off-the-shelf mtb brake pads, non-aero disc bolts, that sort of thing.

Brakes don't need to be the best they just need to be good enough. Dual pivot caliper brakes on a racing bike are "good enough" once you get to Ultegra level...

i disagree; dual pivot caliper brakes are good enough even at cheap-even-for-tektro level.

i don't want road-discs for more powerful braking, i want road-discs for more consistent braking (in the wet), and so that i'm not wearing away my lovely rims.

I'd imagine that the buying public will actually be the guinea pigs who will help the manufacturers develop road disc brakes until they get to a point where any bugs have been ironed out ,then the Pro's may start using them IF the Uci allow it.

But even the fans are now saying:

Which is why I believe if pro tour riders used disc brakes they would soon become a must have.

Is it chicken or egg?

want road-discs for more consistent braking (in the wet),

Your mistake there is riding a road bike in the rain.

Apart from on my CX bike, which is never raced but used for "rough stuff" and thus suits a disc brake, another potential useful place for discs is touring.
A disc is much less likely to be damaged than a rim. I can't claim to be a long term disc user, first disc braked bike wan't until about '98 I think but I have never damaged a disc. Worn out eventually but bent, no. I have straightend those belonging to other. Easier than truing wheels. With discs being so common now it isn't hard to find bits if an emergency fix is needed. The lack of effort needed when stopping a fully laden bike down a long hill would be nice.
There is nowt wrong with what we have but I reckon disc offer other features and in time we will accept them. I mean who nowadays has exposed cables on road bikes. (retro types excluded.)

Eh?
Every road bike on the shops has exposed cables.

Here's some news for you - you're not the majority of road bike riders. Most roadies have never used a disc brake, and aren't so in love with the spurious advantages.

That's not news to me, you can make your point without the personal touch. Once, road cyclists were not familiar with 7 speeds and brake levers being integrated with gear shifters, or carbon fiber, or integrated bearings. I'm sure rod brakes and narrower spacing than the current 130mm were once accepted as being good enough. The use of discs will be driven by demand, just like 29ers.

You seem to have forgotten wheel changes and neutral service, cost, lack of compatibility... apart from that the issues you mention are nowhere near as trivial as you imply - do I need to go on proving you've not actually thought it through properly?

Wheel changes are not any harder with discs, just different. Compatibility will be irrelevant if discs become commonplace, as when discs and suspension came to mountain bikes. They are not reasons to halt progress, people can continue to use their current equipment and make the change if/when they come to replacement. I'm still riding my 2001 GT, and will do for a long time. That doesn't mean I think the 2012 full suspension bike with oversized everything, dropper post and tubeless tyres should not be offered.

Please do go on trying to prove I haven't thought this through properly, I'd be happy to accept it if you can. Although, [i]perhaps [/i] [b]you[/b] could be wrong? Only time will tell!

This is good news!
For you and a few other biffer mountain bikers to whom road biking is a sideline.

I'm not familiar with this term, but thanks? 😀 I ride road just as much as mountain; it's inadvisable to make assumptions based on the limited information you have about me.

One thing to bear in mind when arguing about components on a bicycle - it's the rider who is fast, not the bike. I suspect many of the shiny lycra laddies don't realise this.

Put the likes of Armstrong on one of my monstrosities and he'd still smoke 98% of cyclists out there.

Anyhow, drum brakes are the real go. 🙂

Haha well discs on road bikes, thankfully I can avoid all the marketing crap that will be bandied about on how great road discs are, Steel and Titanium frames here, so won't even have to consider downgrading to discs for a good 25 years or so!

is the first technology that has gone from mtb> road rather than the other way? that is interesting in itself.

thom - no - threadless steerers, cartridge BBs, tubeless, and something else I've forgotten, for starters.

TheDoctor - Member
Haha well discs on road bikes, thankfully I can avoid all the marketing crap that will be bandied about on how great road discs are, Steel and Titanium frames here, so won't even have to consider downgrading to discs for a good 25 years or so!

But you sucked up all the marketing crap about steel and ti frames lasting 25 years ❓

Great

Now rather than the subjective measures of 'being a biffer' and 'sloth' there will be a clear visual indicator of an MTBer out a road bike.

Sorry if 105 don't stop you quick enough you lack skill and need to MTFU

Road bikes with them on will look rubbish as well. Zero panache. That is far more important than bling - but then you all knew that...

winterfold - Member
Sorry if 105 don't stop you quick enough you lack skill and need to MTFU

You'd have said similar to Ayrton Senna when they upgraded his brakes? You run cantis on your mtb? 🙄

Now rather than the subjective measures of 'being a biffer' and 'sloth' there will be a clear visual indicator of an MTBer out a road bike.

There are already some clues

[img] [/img]

That sure did fall out the ugly tree and hit every branch on the way down.

But you sucked up all the marketing crap about steel and ti frames lasting 25 years

All three come with a [i]real[/i] lifetime warranty, and my fourth, well that was built in 1991, resprayed last year it's like new again.

SO what marketing crap are you referring to?! (i would finish that sentence with retard but thought that was a bit harsh on you, but Meh the truth hurts 😀

There are already some clues

TheDoctor - Member
But you sucked up all the marketing crap about steel and ti frames lasting 25 years
All three come with a real lifetime warranty, and my fourth, well that was built in 1991, resprayed last year it's like new again.

SO what marketing crap are you referring to?! (i would finish that sentence with retard but thought that was a bit harsh on you, but Meh the truth hurts

What's a "real" lifetime warranty? Are the others fakes?

You implied that steel and ti frames last 25 years. That's guff, and I reckoned you must have been sucked in my some marketing, which appears to be true.

No need for personal insults either, unless you know you've been called up on talking shite, of course.