[Closed] Hydraulic Road Disc Brakes - confirmed

Yessssssssssssssss.........bring it on 8)

Rim brake? Why? Dont they already have problems with heat build up in the rim?

Rim brake? Why? Dont they already have problems with heat build up in the rim?

Would it actually make that much difference to heat build up? You're still only slowing down from speed a to speed b you'd just be able to do it a little more quickly and I don't think heat build up is an issue in a fast stop. If your dragging the brakes on a long downhill then your only going to build up the same heat as a conventional brake slowing you at the same rate. It does still seem a bit odd though as Magura have been making them for years and they have never been a big seller.

It does still seem a bit odd though as Magura have been making them for years and they have never been a big seller.

HS33's used to be VERY big sellers, when I was in the bike shop world we'd sell more sets of HS33's a week than any of the V's. Not sure how that transfers to road bikes though.

From the launch of the Cervélo P5 and Magura RT8 brakes;

Why Hydraulic?

Any disadvantages over cable rim brakes? In terms of performance, it’s difficult to see a downside. I used these brakes on a P5 at the Cervélo bike launch earlier this week and they are fabulous. They’re brakes… but more so. You get enough well modulated power that you can leave braking that little bit longer and save precious seconds over the opposition.

As for just-in-case braking, well, there’s far less of that. You know you can stop on a sixpence (not sure where I dragged that phrase up from) if you need to so you don’t need to approach corners as tentatively as usual. Sling yourself into the bends at full speed and you can still slow down in time if need be.

“With this brake you can stay faster for a longer time,” said Magura’s Product Manager Stefan Pahl. “You can brake at the last second.”

Why not disc?

•Less weight due to [the fact that there’s no need for] stiffened frames and forks and special hubs with unsychronized forces.
• Better aerodynamics – disc/rotor and calliper create a lot of drag.
• Rim brakes are UCI approved, disc brakes are not.
• Braking power. The biggest friction diameter on a wheel is the rim.
• Easy wheel change.

[url= http://road.cc/content/news/50761-magura-launch-fastest-brake-market ]from road.cc[/url]

Magura make a road rim brake for the new P5 and are planning to bring out a version for normal road setups. info [url= http://triathlete-europe.competitor.com/2012/01/18/first-look-cervelo-p5/ ]here[/url]
EDIT: beaten to it.

Rim brakes will allow a certain amount of compatability with the millions of existing frames on the market. They will limit the amount they sell if they go with discs at present because there are few disc frames on the market.

It will be astronomically expensive though, like Di2 so it'll be a few years before it makes its way on to the cheaper group sets that I can afford.

road cc clearly know next-to-sod-all about disc brakes...

EDIT: beaten to it.

EDIT -

road cc clearly know next-to-sod-all about disc brakes...

Rim brakes will allow a certain amount of compatability with the millions of existing frames on the market. They will limit the amount they sell if they go with discs at present because there are few disc frames on the market.

That's what I was just thinking, spread the 'cost' of hydraulic levers over road and CX and the price/ROI might be more paletable.

go on...

HS33's used to be VERY big sellers, when I was in the bike shop world we'd sell more sets of HS33's a week than any of the V's.

I guess that was individuals replacing v brakes on their bikes as they wanted something with more stopping power. V brakes for all there faults do last well and don't often need replacing due to wearing out so I wouldn't expect that many people to be buying them. How many bike manufacturers though were buying the Magura's, that's the real measure of sales.

ahwiles - Member

road cc clearly know next-to-sod-all about disc brakes...

You do realise that road cc and singletrack are pretty much the same people?

EDIT: To say some of the same people are involved in both sites.

Magura did a road hydraulic brake years ago, they occasionally pop up on ebay and sell for very good money.

For discs on road bikes, one of the problems listed above is the weight penalty associated with asymetric forces - primarily the brake twisting the fork. Would a solution not be to run a pair of 80-100mm discs rather than one larger disc? You would run the piping inside the forks and have the calipers take their fluid from the fork mounts and then plumb the front brake hose from the lever into the stem cap or similar. Using the smaller discs would largely solve the aerodynamic 'problem' as the calipers would tuck in behind the forks fairly well.

At the rear you already have asymetric forces due to the drive, so I wouldn't expect the weight penalty to be an issue there.

All sounds interesting.

You do realise that road cc and singletrack are pretty much the same people?

when they say that disc brakes make changing wheels harder it shows they've never really used disc brakes*.

'undo QR lever - remove wheel'

vs

'undo QR lever - try to remove wheel - remember that you haven't flipped the caliper cable thingy - flip the caliper cable thingy - remove wheel'

(*yes, they're repeating what they were told by 'the horse' - but doesn't say who the horse is)

errrm ahwiles, but if you have a neutral service vehicle with spare wheels during a race what size disks do they carry, what happens if there's a slight difference in hub dimensions between the neutral cars wheels and the bike the wheels going on so there's excessive pad rub?

ahwiles - you seen those uberfast puncture wheelchanges on the TDF? they're going to be more time-consuming, getting disc lined up between pads. at least that would be my guess based on my experience of fitting disced front wheels.

What wwaswas said.

that's worrying, when they say that disc brakes make changing wheels harder it shows they've never really used disc brakes

1-they're not Road.cc are based in Bath or somewhere like that.
2-I think the point being made there is more to do with racing wheel changes and disc alignment, but I could be wrong.

but that's only relevant to pro tour riders, i'm sure they'll find a way.

why not say that discs offer the potential for [u]faster[/u] wheel changes?

(no need to faff around with the cable-cam-flipper)

Hydraulic rim brakes equals fancy time trial frames and hidden often tight cable runs that are perfect for an oil filled hose rather than a brake cable.

but that's only relevant to pro tour riders, i'm sure they'll find a way.

Until the pro riders start using them, the majority of roadies won't either.

Yes, and what if the cyclist accidentally pulls the brake on while the wheel's out (come on we've all done it 🙂 )
Plus, if something does need adjusting (or even if it doesn't), it's pretty hard to do the 'magic spanner' down that low.

1-they're not Road.cc are based in Bath or somewhere like that.

As I stated in my edit, some of the same people are involved (IIRC) not based in the same office.

the pro's will use them - they'll be paid to.

so that we want them.

so that 'crampano'* can sell them.

(*see what i did there?)

Hydraulic rim brakes equals fancy time trial frames and hidden often tight cable runs that are perfect for an oil filled hose rather than a brake cable.

Will that offset the extra drag from the rotor and caliper though?

hydraulic rim brakes don't need rotors.

Will that offset the extra drag form the rotor and caliper though?

ahwiles - Member
road cc clearly know next-to-sod-all about disc brakes...

well as they were quoting Cervelo/Magura, maybe it's them that knows "next-to-sod-all about disc brakes...", the brakes that you have to fiddle between the calipers and hope that the wheel you've just grabbed off neutral service has the same disc spacing as the one on your bike...

but that's only relevant to pro tour riders

Well they're the ones likely to be concerned about how long a wheel change takes - if you don't have support vehicles with spare wheels it's not really that relevant.

Well they're the ones likely to be concerned about how long a wheel change takes - if you don't have support vehicles with spare wheels it's not really that relevant.

not so. Most races in the UK are 3/4 circuit races and crits where laps out for wheel changes are allowed. Discs would make it take much longer if not impossible to borrow a spectators wheel which happens a lot.

discs will eventually happen on the road though

Until the pro riders start using them, the majority of roadies won't either.

Wrong, this is one area where the majority will be using them way before the UCI have got round to thinking about it.
This one will be driven by the mass market in much the same way as suspension and disc brakes on MTBs.

Seems a sensible decision to me to make a rim brake version, after all you're going to the R&D + tooling hassle to stick a master cylinder in the lever so you may as well do a rim brake to make it usable on all current road bikes, it will also likely be the preference for TT bikes (and all pro bikes until the UCI ratifies discs on the road).
The future is definitely discs though, wheel changes won't be much more hassle and how often is neutral service used anyway? Would be easy enough for them to have a standard size disc and the teams can choose whether or not to go with that and the accept the risk of not using it.

FuzzyWuzzy it's not just disc size, it's the .1 mm you have to be perfect laterally with a disk hub to match the fixed pads on the frame when putting a different wheel in.

You coudl get aroudn it by having adjusters on the caliper or reservoir that allows pads to be 'wound' in or out to make allowances but it'll only have a small effect and winding them out woudl reduce brakign efficieincy.

+1

who cares what the pros do...... I'll be on discs on my 'best' roadie as sson as the tech catches up. I'm already disc'd up on the commuter.

theflatboy - Member

ahwiles - you seen those uberfast puncture wheelchanges on the TDF? they're going to be more time-consuming, getting disc lined up between pads. at least that would be my guess based on my experience of fitting disced front wheels.

Simple solution - Dual-ply road tyres run tubeless.

Most races in the UK are 3/4 circuit races and crits where laps out for wheel changes are allowed.

I think you have some punctuation missing there. Most races might be circuit races and crits. Crits might allow laps out for wheel changes. I don't think most races allow laps out for wheel changes though.

Wrong, this is one area where the majority will be using them way before the UCI have got round to thinking about it.

Except that most roadies aren't MTBers who occasionally ride a road bike and want discs because clearly anything else is rubbish. For most roadies there is almost zero advantage to discs.

For most roadies there is almost zero advantage to discs.

For most roadies, there's almost zero advantage to carbon wheels, aero frames, electronic gears and the latest high tech lycra but you only need to look at the average turn-out at a Sportive to see that the market is there for it and even if the market isn't there, one can be created with some judicious marketing of the Shiny New Thing.

😉

I'd say the modulation that disk brakes give would be an absolute revalation for most UK road riders on wet roads.

Wet roads, narrow slick tyres, rim brakes, wet rims and cable operated calipers always made me very nervous.

For most roadies, there's almost zero advantage to carbon wheels, aero frames, electronic gears and the latest high tech lycra but you only need to look at the average turn-out at a Sportive to see that the market is there for it and even if the market isn't there, one can be created with some judicious marketing of the Shiny New Thing.

...at which point we come back to the issue of whether pro roadies will be using them!

yes - they'll be paid to.

yes - they'll be paid to.

You seem to be missing a couple of issues (just the most obvious ones) UCI legality, and aero disadvantage.

Oh, and we've already done the one about wheel changes and neutral support.

yes - they'll be paid to.

To be honest... the 105 brakes on my winter bike make me think discs would be beneficial. Particularly in the wet, it's genuinely pretty scary in traffic.

Then I ride my Madone with Dura Ace, and really can't see the point.

Lighter rims maybe... we're already seeing 250g tub rims for not a lot of money, perhaps we'll see lighter clinchers.

Maybe SRAM stopped paying them and Shimano were smart enough to know they didn't have to?

weight is mute as it is currently perfectly possible to build a bike below the legal limits.

Now wheel changes, discs are a right faff, the front is fine but the back, fighting chain tension and at the same time trying to get the disc in the caliper. You are not going to make the wheel changes as quick as with current rim brakes.

Even the brake QRs are redundant on many road bikes as 23mm tyres fit through the gap when the QR is closed, the use of wider aero profile rims will make wheel changes even easier.

the only real advantage for disc brakes is that you don't have to wear the rims, which makes alot of sense where carbon is involved.

Simple solution - Dual-ply road tyres run tubeless.

I don't know you but I already like you

I think you have some punctuation missing there.

I did mean that wheel changes are allowed at most races, ie circuits up to 2 miles (crazy-legs will have to confirm the distance.)

the only real advantage for disc brakes is that you don't have to wear the rims, which makes alot of sense where carbon is involved.

Great now it's going to be even easier to lock out and skid on skinny slick road tyres! 😕

it's about modulation grum, not outright grunt 😉

Most of the folk I race and ride with seem pretty indifferent to the idea of disks, some for, some against. It's not really been a hot topic of conversation. I have 105 brakes on my winter bike/ commuter and come rain or shine, traffic or hills they perform fine, i'm never been worried or scared because of the brakes. I've got sram red on the race bikes and these are even better. But when disks come in as the norm, I won't be sat grumbling into my beer, I'll give them crack, hell, I've bought enough other shine :-)y stuff for the sake of progress. Have these things made me betterer, hmmm, it still seems to be about legs, lungs and commitment to me; but none of them have stopped me having fun, so why not 🙂

I'm not really worried one way or the other for the road bike, but my CX bike would really benefit from a set of good disc's. The inconsistencies of the rim brakes drives me up the wall, in bone dry conditions they're not too bad (apart from the judder/squeal) but in the wet/mud I'm often not sure if I'm ever going to stop.

You seem to be missing a couple of issues (just the most obvious ones) UCI legality, and aero disadvantage.

the uci will allow them sooner or later (that is, if they're not actually banned now).

and yes, i am ignoring the aero-disadvantage - even though i bet it's MASSIVE, probably a bit like trying to pedal a garden shed.

so can you explain why Cervelo went from being paid to use SRAM components to paying to use Shimano? Seems to me that pro road teams are willing to choose performance over money.

no idea, here's a guess though:

they wanted to?

here's another:

they were paid to?

here's another:

they fell out with their SRAM contact - so did it out of spite?

it almost certainly wasn't because road-discs are on their way to a very expensive shiny bike on display in a bike shop near you soonish.

I did mean that wheel changes are allowed at most races, ie circuits up to 2 miles

You mean laps out? I've done races with neutral support on much longer circuits than that. I'm unconvinced about that being most races though - I've certainly never done a race on a circuit that short, and I don't think there are any round here. Maybe you mean most races near you? (Hillingdon?)

and yes, i am ignoring the aero-disadvantage - even though i bet it's MASSIVE, probably a bit like trying to pedal a garden shed.

A straw garden shed? I suspect the difference is at least as big as all sorts of things they spend lots of money on now - for example between an aero and non-aero frame.

I have discs on my Vaya which I ride on the road and trails. It has 40c slicks on it and even with those tyres pulling the front brake going round a bend is scary - the brake is so powerful the wheel can lock without warning. Compared to calliper brakes they have advantages - they don't wear out my rims for example - but I think they need to be made a lot less grabby for use on the road. Great when I take the bike off road though - much better than canti brakes. So discs are good for cross but, from my experience, just unnecessary on the road.

For most roadies, there's almost zero advantage to ... and the latest high tech lycra

That is nonsense. I'm off home in my Pearl Izumi Softshell AmFib tights. It's -2C outside and I know that the windproofing will keep me warm. A significant advance on roubaix tights. I agree with the rest, mind.

Mmmmmm. Wheels. Shiny. Light... must resist 😳

FFS!!!
I started this thread as it's good news.
Mountain biking has in the past been lead by road bikes standards now it's broken free. So why cant we pass a bit back. Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!

ahwiles - Member
so can you explain why Cervelo went from being paid to use SRAM components to paying to use Shimano? Seems to me that pro road teams are willing to choose performance over money.

no idea, here's a guess though:

they wanted to?

here's another:

they were paid to?

Yes,they wanted to. You nailed that one on the head.

I had a laugh once when i heard that someone from Shimano queried the shimano chain and cassettes on some pro`s bikes at a big race when they should have been running spam.. only to be either blanked or ushered away with no reply. Cant remember which.

FFS!!!
I started this thread as it's good news.
Mountain biking has in the past been lead by road bikes standards now it's broken free. So why cant we pass a bit back. Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!

I can understand your feelings about discs being better, but bigger picture discs aren't without drawbacks. They do have advantages but they are not perfect. No brake is perfect just about where you compromise.

part of the cervelo test team ethos was to buy kit, it gave them more flexibility, hence Sastre using Rotor cranks. The Sram agreement might have been more flexible than shimano were

I can understand your feelings about discs being better, but bigger picture discs aren't without drawbacks. They do have advantages but they are not perfect. No brake is perfect just about where you compromise.
[/quote

Please name them for the average rider.

 

Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!

because the (few) disadvantages of standard road brakes aren't surpassed by your (perceived) advantages of disc brakes?

pro roadies, with a few exceptions, weight about 35 kilos*
stopping isn't a big deal, I suspect

Tubby biffers bimbling around and trying to descend too fast against oncoming traffic, on the other hand, ...

*per pair

(yes, I'm a biffer 😳 )

because the (few) disadvantages of standard road brakes aren't surpassed by your (perceived) advantages of disc brakes?

Why do you think it is 'perceived', do you know me! I've been riding and racing road bikes since I was 12 years old, I'm now 31 so that's quite a bit of experience......

Rik - Member
because the (few) disadvantages of standard road brakes aren't surpassed by your (perceived) advantages of disc brakes?
Why do you think it is 'perceived', do you know me! I've been riding and racing road bikes since I was 12 years old, I'm now 31 so that's quite a bit of experience......

you don't know me either, i've been riding and racing road bikes for about 10 years longer than you, what's your point?
🙂

This is good news! The only *possible* arguments against road bikes with discs is that the chassis has to be stronger and therefore heavier in some areas (some of which can be recovered with disc specific bikes) and a slight aero dis-advantage. The weight can be removed from the rim, which is more beneficial, and the aero will not make any significant difference. Being able to shape the seat stays and forks for more aero advantage/comfort, and removing the hasstle of making carbon rims withstand head on big descents, more than makes up for these tiny cons! TT bikes can use rim brakes though, I'll let them.

you don't know me either, i've been riding and racing road bikes for about 10 years longer than you, what's your point?

game,set and match to the fella that draws sheepsies

Come on Jo, that smiley is like proper pulling your counter-punch there… 😉

Please name them for the average rider.

a new bike for a start, remember roadies aren't exactly known for being faddy.
a pain when dealing with punctures.
having to ensure all your wheels are shimmed correctly, and if sharing wheels between a road and tt bike that is going to be a pain.
extra weight, twisting forces on front forks.
a lot of the time, why? yes they offer more power, but more isn't needed most of the time. Road bikes don't need stopping, just slowing down.

then in race situations neutral service becomes impossible. at the moment there are two basic setups, campag 11 and shimano/sram, hubs are 130mm. throw in disc/caliper and unless you get a universal agreement on rotor size and position and caliper position how do ou do it?
aerodynamics are minor but the faster you go the more it matters, read Magura's points on this.

aerodynamics are minor but the faster you go the more it matters, read Magura's points on this.

If it mattered I'm sure it can be factored into a good frame design, i.e. the caliper could shielded from the wind a bit, but I suspect that without the need to have part of the frame close to the tyre, the frame and forks could be more slippery - one of the new aero bikes has seat stays that bulge out from the wheel to smooth the airflow... just a possibility.

The pros outweigh the cons IMO

The pros outweigh the cons IMO

IYO, others might disagree, in the end most people will end up with discs, not because people want it but because it is what will be available

if it makes my bike brake better - bring it on.

I agree that neutral services might be troublesome but fitting other wheels at home?? Why. Am I the only MTBer that has several pairs of wheels that get slung in as the whim/going/puncture takes me. Never bother with any fuss.
I would love a pair on my Cotic X but wil have to make do with some Hope V twins

Only a fool, and I mean a fool (stw has far too many niche hoars) would not have hydraulic disc brakes on their bikes why the he'll not should road bikes have all those advantages and NO disadvantages!!

Absolute pish.

One thing I love about the road bike is how smooth, silent and maintainance free it is. Not an experience I've EVER enjoyed with disc brakes, even when running well there's always some rub or drag or squeek or something.

Cue all the usual accusations of not looking after them or being a hamfisted buffoon. So what, I don't need to maintain my Ultegra callipers and they're smooth silent and hassle free. If they're underpowered I've never noticed, and trueing a wobbly wheel is easier than bending a buckled rotor back into shape.

Maybe I'm just getting old, discs on road bikes is just the next marketing ploy after electric gears...

Maybe on a cross bike or a winter/training bike...

So discs on your best road bike that only gets taken out in the dry and cosseted with love, pointless really.

Weight is the other big issue even with a conservative road wheel build being 1500g and calipers at 300g a pair for cheap calipers then to get to a nice light weight there'll need to be some serious weight loss for it to be taken seriously.

For wet weather and loaded use I can se the point for my light best bike er no.

Rik, he's got 10 years on you, andhe's an stw stooge and jewellry cowboy,so he wins.

Anyway, hopefully this will make bake manufacturers make wheel changes easier.

Oh and did anyone else's LOLLERCOPTER take off when they saw this?

• Better aerodynamics – disc/rotor and calliper create a lot of drag.
• Braking power. The biggest friction diameter on a wheel is the rim.

I'm not Biting, I have plenty of experience to know I'm not talking shit. Plus nobody has given a decent response against.

.............