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Ok, this is bugging me! Can anyone explain how it's become acceptable for rear mechs to be so damn HUGE? Mostly the cage and jockey wheels looking like some Shimano Acera X junk from the 90s!
We've been banging on about gearboxes for ages now, mostly due to the vulnerability of rear mechs, but all that's happened is they've become more vulerable!
I have a Sram AXS setup on my bike (didn't choose it, I chose the bike) and every single time I go for a ride some crap gets caught up in the lower jockey. Last time it was actually some wire that started scraping horrendously against the rear wheel.
I've got this lovely looking XO derailleur on my hardtail, which is small, tucked away and actually a very nice piece of design. I wish I could swap it over but the internal routing, without something already in there to replace, is too big a deal to tackle. (And apparently some manufacturers are doing away with cable routing?)
Am I the only one hating this new development? Does the new Shimano electronic gear suffer from the same design?
It’s possible to fit smaller cages, I put an XO DH cage on an eagle GX AXS mech, and shorter cages are soon to be available for transmission. Not cheap though.
What's that? Not sure I like the look of it, but I'm sure it will pick up less grass and debris!
I do much prefer a short cage mech (as I'm eyeing up my 94 XT short cage rear mech that I now have as a paperweight!)...suspect the longer cages are to do with 1x and making sure the mech has enough capacity to keep the chain tensioned throughout the full range.
If a smaller cage can be had that allows smooth operation of 1x then I think I might be very keen...but I also suspect it isn't quite so easy.
you are aware that the size of the cage is required to cover the difference in chain length across the cassette right?
you can run smaller cages with smaller changes in cassette, ie the new shimano stuff offers a smaller cassette over 12 speed, or you could use a tiny cassette with something like a classified rear hub
you are aware that the size of the cage is required to cover the difference in chain length across the cassette right?
I guess not. But then again:
Eagle cassette with the XO non-huge mech... works fine
perhaps it also has to consider chain stretch over suspension compression also? although i would imagine the chain will get tighter as the suspension moves up, and in theory the chain would also be on a smaller cog?
or the cage allows the mech upper pulley to run closer to the cassette cogs? ie similar distance at bottom and top?
What's that? Not sure I like the look of it, but I'm sure it will pick up less grass and debris!
Fraezen DH cage, due for release in the next few weeks. Also available in black. Don’t expect much change from £400. Link to std sized cages here https://fraezen.de/en/pages/schaltwerkkafig
or, give eagle AXS a go with an XO DH cage. Not sure how well it will work with full sized cassettes, mind
Certainly bigger, but my mech smashing rate hasn't gone up since I started using Eagle in 2017.
Another one - non huge XT mech with 1X and wide range cassette.
Maybe no-one else rides places with grass or debris around!
£400 for an ugly cage knows where it can go 😀
Am I the only one hating this new development?
I just hate the whole dinner plate rear cassette and tiny chainring look. Ruins the aesthetics of modern bikes.
I just hate the whole dinner plate rear cassette and tiny chainring look. Ruins the aesthetics of modern bikes.
On the upside, it makes going back to the SS or gravel* bikes even more of a fun surprise when the rear wheel isn't slamming into everything with the momentum of a 500g cassette behind it.
*I'm a luddite, it still runs on 11-28!
Thing is, when you’re going a reasonable speed in the higher gears where mech damage is likely, it’s tucked up out of the way.
I do agree to some extent and may switch back from SRAM GX 12 to Shimano XT 11 with a smaller chainring.
More due to cassette price and finicky setup.
It’s one of the downsides of 29ers. I didn’t need the range on the 27.5 or 26.
it’s tucked up out of the way.
AXS isn't. That thing can't tuck itself anywhere. Also it's better with a 29 wheel cos its almost scraping the ground with 27.5!
Am I the only one hating this new development? Does the new Shimano electronic gear suffer from the same design?
Anything that has to accommodate a bigger Cassette has obviously got to grow in the Rear mech area, If you don't want a big rear mech, what you really want is 2x... Which neither of the Big 'S's seem particularly keen to offer on an MTB, unless you opt for CUES, which funnily enough has replaced Acera (amongst other lower tier groups), So I guess the only way to avoid the Aesthetics of "Acera X Junk" is to buy some new Acera X level junk...
You mention Gearboxes, you do know they are available now right? 5 mins on Google could have saved you from this trauma...
Yep I've deliberately chosen recently to go with smaller chainrings (28 or 30) with an 11-40 or 11-42 cassette & medium cage XT Mech rather than a 32/34 plus 11-46/50 etc.
I'd rather have a smaller chainring & cassette and less weight/cage length on the rear of the bike than go the other way. Only sacrifice is top speed but I can still pedal ~20mph on the flat and that's plenty!
5 mins on Google could have saved you from this trauma...
rEading the rest of the thread could've saved you this "Anything that has to accommodate a bigger Cassette has obviously got to grow in the Rear mech area", plus I clearly wasn't saying I WANT a gearbox, just... oh forget it 😐
I know this is frequently raised as an issue (and I realise posting this next bit will lead to inevitable mech destruction imminently), but the last time I damaged a mech through some kind of trail mishap was 1999.
I remember the date because I was living in Germany at the time. It was in the middle of some woods where I wasn't sure if I was allowed or not (probably not). A thick twig/thin branch got flicked up into the mech and bent it out of shape.
Most of my riding is described as mincecore-lite though, so probably a factor?
Anything that has to accommodate a bigger Cassette has obviously got to grow in the Rear mech area, If you don't want a big rear mech, what you really want is 2x
I can't be arsed to do the maths, but surely there's not much difference in the amount of chain slack you need to take up on a 10-51, compared to the days of triples when you went from 44 front-34 rear to 22 front-11 rear?
Even then you could run a medium cage mech because you knew you'd never run big:big or small:small gear combos.
I'd add that obviously gear capacity is a large part of it, but it's also gear capacity concentrated in one spot. 41T difference; but the actual size difference between a 52T and an 11T sprocket is immense, and the mech has to cover that, right?
But yeah, I've gone XT 11-speed 11-42 with a 32T so I can use a medium cage mech
but the last time I damaged a mech through some kind of trail mishap was 1999
You know what.. I've NEVER damaged a mech when riding, I've been out with people who have, but this one collects more grass and shit than any other I've had, so seems to be willing itself to be the first.
You know what.. I've NEVER damaged a mech when riding
I said that on this forum a few years back. Then, within a month, I smashed two on the exact same corner when sticks jammed in the spokes.
I can't be arsed to do the maths, but surely there's not much difference in the amount of chain slack you need to take up on a 10-51, compared to the days of triples when you went from 44 front-34 rear to 22 front-11 rear?
It's not so much taking up the chain slack or even suspension growth (both factors though) but the simple radial difference between 10 and 51 teeth sprockets...
You have the same basic design of mechanism that has to span a bigger distance than it did previously and still curl up to cover the same dinky sprocket at the other end. it's basically impossible to do it without increasing the size of the thing...
To put it in context covering that 51t sprocket requires at least 1.5 inches (38mm) more movement that it would have on the ~11-32 cassettes we were using on MTBs at the turn of the century.
oh forget it
OK.
I worried about it when 11 and then 12 speed came along but it turned out at about the same time that 9/10 mech problems were just caused by older mechs being a bit crap and old mech hangers being excessively weak, to the point that rather than being useful sacrificial protection, they were breaking and bending often when nothing had to break at all, and throwing your mech in the wheel and making everything worse.
I definitely wrecked more mechs in the years before this on 9 speed, than I ever had on 11 and 12, despite riding harder stuff.
My Dura Ace 7402 mech is tiny. The bike is a bugger up steep hills though. I saw a picture of a vintage XT (8 speed) vs a 12 speed XT, almost twice the size !
On the upside, it makes going back to the SS or gravel* bikes even more of a fun surprise when the rear wheel isn't slamming into everything with the momentum of a 500g cassette behind it.
On a rigid bike the change in centre of gravity from the cassette weighing 200g more must be negligible so i can’t see how this works
I think I’ve destroyed 3 rear mechs on my 2x10 gravel bike. I’ve not destroyed either of the 12 speed mechs on my mtb and Stooge. The gravel bike has been ridden further though
My ebike is full sus so the rear wheel doesn't "slam" anywhere. I was running a teeny DuraAce on my gravel bike for 10 years, until it started to seize up through lack of maintenance (daily commuter for many of those years too). Now have a GRX on it, which is pretty massive in comparison, but at least it hasn't got the giant grass collecting jockeys.
You know what.. I've NEVER damaged a mech when riding
I said that on this forum a few years back. Then, within a month, I smashed two on the exact same corner when sticks jammed in the spokes.
I find this so unbelievable. I'm not saying you haven't, but just so far from my own experience. Yes, it depends where you ride - rocky riding in Spain the other year I destroyed 2 mechs in 2 days, the second while being super careful. This year neither of us actually broke one but they still ended up with rock scrapes and it seems even a minor knock is enough to ensure 12s Shimano never shifts properly again. My current XT mech has no signs of damage/impact at all and it seems impossible to tune out a slight catch on the 51 sprocket when riding one down.
Riding in Surrey you're unlikely to smash on a rock, but saw a mate completely destroy an AXS mech on an e-bike with a small stick.
Back when I started riding the issue used to be pivots going sloppy once they'd had a few years use. None of my mechs get anything like that old any more.
As someone who also likes small svelte componentry - I've also noted that the new generation of wireless mechs from Shimano in particular are frippin heavy compared to the good old cabled version. Never had much of an issue with well setup cables on any type of bike - soon the only cable mechs available on a modern group will be low end Cues etc... a mistake.
My next rear mech will be a Madrone Jab.
Cheap compared to wireless, fully serviceable/rebuildable, and can swap the cam to work on any system.
https://madronecycles.com/pages/madrone-jab-derailleur
Cheap compared to wireless, fully serviceable/rebuildable, and can swap the cam to work on any system.
€450 for that mech, while the GX transmission costs €325 - it's a lovely thing, but it is not by any means cheaper than wireless
I looked at the Madrone cage replacement when someone posted about it the other day. Cage and jockeys look just as huge and vulnerable as the stock AXS. That saved me some money anyway 🙂
Plus the AXS cage is under £30 to replace when the inevitable happens.
Call me old fashioned but I'd rather pay that for a Madrone or Ingrid style mechanical mech which might just last a few decades of riding vs some cheaply made plasticky thing which might be bricked within five years when they decide to discontinue the firmware support if it hasn't already long since worn out. There is a huge gap opening in the market for 'non-race xc' and gravel groupsets that are mechanical and well made... and yet aren't the boutique prices of current offerings. There's more of this sort of thing popping up but its surprisingly expensive to design and make the sort of thing we had nailed with XTR/ Duraace from 20 years ago...
soon the only cable mechs available on a modern group will be low end Cues etc... a mistake.
As above, there a few companies now making after market, premium, cable mechs.
Plus the AXS cage is under £30 to replace when the inevitable happens.
the supposedly easy rebuildabilty and availability of parts is the one thing that keeps me coming back to the idea of AXS over manual Shimano.
Cheap compared to wireless, fully serviceable/rebuildable, and can swap the cam to work on any system.
€450 for that mech, while the GX transmission costs €325 - it's a lovely thing, but it is not by any means cheaper than wireless
It’s £275 for the Madrone, £300 for GX AXS, £399 for GX T type
£400 for a rear mech!?
I'm out of touch with groupsets, but where does this sit in groupset hierachy? Even top-end it's crazy money.
...and they wonder why less people are mountain biking. 🤦♂️
where does this sit in groupset hierachy? Even top-end it's crazy money.
GX is Sram's entry level MTB leccy groupset, I believe.
I smashed two on the exact same corner when sticks jammed in the spokes.
I find this so unbelievable.
I have ruined two mechs on the exact same rock at Grizedale, just dropping in from the top of Carron Crag off-piste, if anyone remembers that gem.
Not been so hard on mechs the last couple of years, touch wood. Even my £20 Deore bargains are holding up well enough that electric gears seem a ridiculous idea.
I don't mind a Deore/XT 11-12s on an MTB but the Transmission stuff is too much. But it's an MTB, I don't need it to look great I just want it to work.
So none of it bugs me as much as the uglification of road kit. Campy kit now genuinely makes me a bit sad. It's been over a decade since they made anything that looks elegant, now it all looks like something found on the alien ship among the facehuggers. I build a bike with some 9s Ultegra recently and it's lovely - works so well too. Yeah, I got old .. haha.
I find this so unbelievable.
Yet I was there and I find it believable.
Key thing here is that it was the same place and same time, late autumn. Lots of dead branches covered by dead leaves on that section of trail. Fairly fast section on a narrow trail leading to a sharp turn, you can't see the dead branches until too late and you're going too fast to avoid them.
I had the same thing driving to work. Never seen a serious crash for years. But then, two days in a row, there was a truck rolled on its side at the same spot. It was a bumpy corner leading onto an arched bridge, the first freeze of winter. Bridges have airflow under them so they will ice up before normal roads do. A bumpy corner leading onto a bridge in icy weather is deadly for trucks.
The statistical trick here is that the incidents weren't independent, they happened at times and places that made it much more likely for problems to happen.
It’s £275 for the Madrone, £300 for GX AXS, £399 for GX T type
Add the Madrone to the cart, the UK VAT gets added, and the UDH mount version costs extra. . £399 is full retail for the GX Tranmission, it's widely available much cheaper, as I linked.
Add the Madrone to the cart, the UK VAT gets added
It clearly states "Tax included and shipping and discounts calculated at checkout".
I smashed the rear mech off my ebike recently - partly my fault for forgetting I had one but by 'eck its a vulnerable bit of what is otherwise a robust machine. Nothing else would have broken so easily.
Cheapest Madrone I could get at checkout shipped to the UK was £312 including an eye water £30 in shipping and a mysterious £10 for duties.
Cheapest UK t-type I could fine was £350 and still needs batteries etc. I like axs for the ability to have wired shifter and consistent performance in grim conditions. However, if I didn't, I'd struggle to justify the madrone over a £50 deore which shifts perfectly provided the cable is good (which sadly isn't long on my current frames).
Embrace the Singularity, ditch the dangly expensive bits, go singlespeed. I think there's a chap called Sam somewhere on here who may be able to help you...
I was watching YouTube last night about some new version of Cues with particularly wide range gearing. As the fellah was running through the ratios I did notice that the bottom jockey wheel looked to be about 3 inches from the ground when in the lower gears. That was a 700c wheel too. Looked pretty stupid, though of course form should come after function.
While larger rear mechs can be more vulnerable I'd take that every time over double and triple front mechs with the inherent problems of chainsuck, having to back off the power to make a clean front shift or risk ripping the rear mech off, with the potential for it to go into the rear wheel or even snap the frame