[Closed] How to start a new bike company?

I reckon you would make a small fortune...................as long as you started with a large fortune 😕

obviously we'll be happy to help by testing any new frames you build 😉

There are already too many on the market

I'm out

can i be the first voice of doom.
not been involved with that exact model but i have worked in the import and distribution side of the bike trade (10 years)and came to the conclusion that starting something from scratch would be near impossible.
best of luck though 😀

oh look im not the first.

No doubt 🙂

Nah, I reckon that there's some money to be made - I'm not expecting to become a millionaire from it, mind.

I agree that starting from scratch is always going to be tricky but then I'm realistic enough to see that it may well be that it needs to be built very slowly to start to a point where you have enough awareness of the brand to get sales in on a consistent basis - that's why I said that I'd be keeping a full time job rather than going full into it from the start.

to be fair clubber its obviosley not impossible cos there are those who are doing it.

In terms of useful feedback.

I would try to do something different and cool with my frames, seat stay configurations are something a lot of people play with, On One have their fortress stays or cotic's neat wish bone. So you may need to think about that.

I would say there is a market spot for a nice but not too expensive 853 or Tange Prestige steel frame with a cool image that is sold (I know it costs more but that is your problem) through dealers. So people can get the custom builds they need and the lazy boy back up they yearn but without the hassle that is currently necessary.

You could probably set it up really cheaply too. Let me know on here if you are serious about doing it. I may have some useful ideas.

SC

I guess realistically if it works out the best you could hope for for a while is a shed/garage/lockup with a handful of prototypes and for frames you sell to subsidise your ragtag fleet. Not a bad situation at all but guess you will only get past there if you have a product that really hits the spot, preferably in a unique way.
At least you are in the right place to find willing testers, many of whom are willing to speak their minds 🙂

First, pick a good name... maybe something like... Off-Two... Apple... just thinking out loud...

it needs to be built very slowly

I guess that the key questions are how are you going to build a better bike than the Inbred and sell it for less than £135 without being accused of [url= http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4374 ]dumping[/url] (Australian but I believe that smiler rules apply in the UK)

A friend of mine did this a few years ago, when long travel single crown forks came about (around 2002, forks of around 150mm+) He went to Canada, saw people doing crazy drops etc on hardtail bikes that we Brits wouldnt do on proper DH bikes. So to cut a long story short he thought he would be at the front of the trend when the 'Freeride' arena hit the UK. He went to HK and had various meetings with factories and came up with a alloy frame design, quite different from most brands but still had the popular 'Rad' tubing. He re-mortgaged his house and had a few frame made (well quite a few)... He finally got them over here and they looked fantastic, really burly and different (lots of machining on the headtube and chainstay yolk etc) really nice. Then we built one...Oh dear, this is where it went wrong! The geometry was aweful, the head angle on some was so steep it was like you had the seatpost 4' up (when it was actually as low as possible) others had super slack head angles. Needless to say, he sold a few (the decent ones) and has a good load left in the loft/garage/shed.

I guess the moral is, really go through the Geometry with a fine tooth combe, ensure its either gonna work for the masses or be custom for each order. Oh and most of all, ensure the manufacturer is up to the job!

Quality standards are a must!

Good luck!

I'm sure that there is a wheel size that has not been exploited by the bike industry. Build frames for that and aim it at a mainstream group who like to think of themselves as being somehow different.

Pick a niche - Islabikes for example

Oh yes - know what you're doing too - Isla Rowntree for example

and another thing your fantastic new idea runs a good chance of showing up on ebay with no decals and an odd name if you have it made in the far east.

Running a bike business and working full-time sucks, ben there done that and got out and feel happier for it.
Also a word of warning about setting up a bike company - [url= http://www.pastey.com/ ]Pastey[/url]

Clubber, starting a bike company/brand is relatively easy, and whether it's a success or not depends on what the objective of your company/brand is. I guess it also depends on how you define "success".

Financially, Dialled Bikes isn't a success. But from a personal satisfaction perspective, it's exceeded what I expected when first starting the company in 2003.

If you've got any specific questions, feel free to e-mail me and I'll try to answer them. But I'm no expert by any means, just a bloke that likes/rides bikes and runs a bike brand in his spare time. Cy and Brant would probably be better advisors as they're more into the industry side of things than me.

I suppose what you need to learn from YETIboyJAY's example is to get prototypes made up here in the UK first before entering a full production run. I've never done it so i cant comment but it something ive always thought about and i suppose the hardest thing will be defining yourself from the other niche frame companies.

Get a marketing head on. Who is your target market, and what is your offering?

The Marketing mix: What is your [b]Product[/b], and how does it compare to competitors? What [b]price [/b]will you sell it at, what message does your price convey, and is your product worth it? [b]Promotion[/b], how will your market get to know about it? [b]Distribution[/b], how you get it to your market?

Make some decisions about what you are offering under each of these. Preferably try to find a unique mix compared to competitors.

Prototypes aren't just important - they're essential! Though not necessarily made in the UK. Dialled Bikes first proto was UK made and it wasn't right, that's what led me to Taiwan.

As Clubber is thinking of Chinese production, it would make sense to take a trip to China and visit the factories of potential suitors. Don't just go with the first factory who agrees to build them.

I would tend to agree with feenster - what will you be doing that is different from On one / dialed bikes / a n other small frame manufacturer?

You need a unique selling point in a crowded marketplace. You need a pile of money to burn before you start to get any income.

Without trying to sound hugely arrogant, if you're asking really basic questions like "how much time and money it'd take at the start, how you actually go about starting to get frames made, what sort of numbers you need to get in order to be able to price reasonably and so on." then you probably aren't going to do very well at it.

Plus, to make a proper go of it, it's much more than one frame in three sizes and one colour. You need all the other stuff as well.

Richard Sachs (google him) says that as a smaller builder, if he didn't do complete bikes, then he'd have closed a long time ago. And he's ace!

But as I am waiting for my lovely wife to finish making my breakfast, here's a quicky:-

how much time and money it'd take at the start - [url= http://www.hotlines-uk.com/Brands.aspx?BrandID=891 ]This[/url] was a blank sheet of paper on the 1st February. It's been very hard. It'll be 12 months before I think we'll have what I consider to be a "range" in place. Money? Lots.

how you actually go about starting to get frames made - you need to find an agent, rather than a factory in my experience. Agents charge a fee, but this is usually offset by the fact they'll get better prices than you will get from a factory. Finding a good agent who understand what you want is the trick. I spend 1-2hrs a day on skype talking to my agent.

what sort of numbers you need to get in order to be able to price reasonably and so on - min 10pc per size, 30pc per colour, min order 100-150pc total. usually.

Thanks all - some really good replies.

I'm fairly well clued up business-wise so I'm fully aware of the need for an image/niche/USP/etc as well as having a pretty good idea about PR/marketing/etc. I've actually already got a pretty clear idea in my mind of the market that I'm looking at though I think I'll keep that to myself for now.

I guess that what I really am unsure about is how feasible it is to actually do while working full time and not having thousands in cash that I want to put up right from the start.

I guess that my ideas have been along the lines of starting out slowly now - designing things - and building up gradually (prototypes, starting to sort out production contracts, etc) with a view to being ready to ramp up numbers (eg actually getting things made in economic qtys) as we hopefully start to come out of recession in a couple of years and people start spending again.

PS to the guy who emailed me about graphics/web design/etc - thanks for the email and it's exactly what I'll be after when it comes to it but I think it's too early just yet. If things do happen, I'd probably be looking for someone from here to provide all that so keep an eye out!

EDIT: Thanks brant too (posted before I saw your post). I guess that my 'fairly basic questions' are just because I don't know yet - It's not the sort of thing that I find out in my normal job - rather than because I don't have the ability to find out or understand. I'm just getting info together for now to see if it's feasible within the limitations I have (eg full time job, etc) so once I have some clearer understanding it may well be that I do decide that it's a non-goer but I guess that if I do go ahead, that we'll see whether I can do well at it or not 😉

I'm a bit sceptical about a model "just like" on-one/cotic/dialled etc

What I might be interested in is somebody with access to a quality far-east (or wherever, but at least cheapish) frame builder who can be a sensible middle-man between me & them in making me a frame to my requirements (so you'd be commissioning a stream of prototypes I guess - and stopping people from making awful mistakes along the way)
(bit like SSP did using a UK builder I think - though he's stopped now hasn't he - wonder why ?)

Say I'd fancy a hardtail with a 150mm (& sliding or something) rear end & wide BB shell (or big diameter BB shell to allow eccentric bb or bb30etc or a hammerthingy, so would want chainguide mounts too). Maybe I want specific cable mounts, or none, or rack mounts etc, or a 1.5 headtube

You could offer them shipped over bare/waxed or something so buyers can get their own paint/powder etc done.

I know I could do this for myself as a one-off from china, but I can't be arsed with all(?) the setting up

I've actually already got a pretty clear idea in my mind of the market that I'm looking at

Old mincers who think 130mm forks are strictly for those freeride chappies? 😉

The Major problem with borrowing the on one business model is that you already have a group of established brands (On one, Dialled, DMR, etc) operating a similar model in the same market segment.

You’re talking about trying to sub-divide an already small market segment yet again and establish yet another niche brand to compete with all the others, to be honest the “British Designed, Far eastern Built” frame market is stuffed choc full you’ll be the new boy trying to compete on price with established brands who already have a following, basically you’re a few years too late to the market…

Perhaps look at other components on the bike, everyone seems to default to thinking about the frame but there are a fair few other parts on a bike, you’re really after an area where you can differentiate your own product from others already on the market, either on function, Value for money or pure bling.
Truly innovative new products are a great place to start from but I doubt you’ll magically just hit on that one brilliant idea (If you do, keep it to yourself, as son as you blab you’ve knackered your IP)…
It may seem like lowering your sights but it’s better to think of it as broadening your horizons….

Good Luck…

Old mincers who think 130mm forks are strictly for those freeride chappies?

Got anyone in mind? All my bikes have 130mm forks and I'm no freeride chappie.

I guess that what I really am unsure about is how feasible it is to actually do while working full time and not having thousands in cash that I want to put up right from the start.

Clubber, if you have any doubt/aversion to risk at all, and don't have £x0,000 cash to put into it as start up capital, then it's probably not a good business venture for you.

As for the build up slowly approach, that's not really viable as the Far East bike industry is pretty fast moving and they don't like people who d1ck them about ordering prototypes that take ages to go into production or never go into production (I know, as I have done this in the past and pissed a few factory owners off). Look how quickly Brant/Hotlines have moved with Ragley since Feb.

Brant... 😀 😉

Clubber:Of course a credibility to push and market the brand is crucial as this will save you time... and money..

Grass routes cred and industry knowledge.. a solid foundation in these helps! and even then it can go tit's up.
You can possibly have the best frame in the world... but if you can't get it to market 😥

And don't think it will happen in 1 year... you could be looking at 2 or 3... while living on bread and marmite in your mates flat..

If your loaded ... that helps too 😀

Does any body know how [url= http://www.pastey.com/index.html ]Pastey [/url]are doing? I remember that they were popular a few year ago but haven't heard much about them for a while.

Just what we need more cheap far eastern junk frames...

My suggestion learn how to build frames yourself, although unless your going to back it up with a lifetime warranty and give me the geometry I want than my money will still probably go into curtis' pocket.

But it would appear plenty of people seem to buy these cheap frames with questionable warranties, just look at the amount of cotics and on-ones about. Wether or not that business model is sustainable in the long term only time will tell.

I've read this thread and I can see you have a good idea of the business process, the potential pitfalls, and the possibilities. But where is your passion for bikes? Why do bikes, why not any other industry?

It just doesn't sound like you have any specific ideas for improving bicycles.

get a few or one design together and patent it
Then find a frame maker to make one.

Build it up then go and see if anyone will take it on
and also try and get the Mags to test them as free publicity
is pricless

will the first Clubber frame be called "seal"?

Maybe 😉

as for passion for bikes - lol. You really don't know me. Similarly I've deliberately kept my specific ideas to myself. How am I going to make millions if someone else nicks my ideas 🙂

i like the sound of "clubber" bikes though

I've got another name in mind but Clubber bikes has been considered.

[url= http://www.xacd.com.cn/index1.htm ]here you go , speak to these chaps , some of the builders on here may know them[/url]

You dont give out names just ask ?
Someone can copy right it.

Clubber Lang

Ideas! Good. We always need more. Just test em first before you pour in the cash.

I remember popping into Cotic HQ a couple of years ago to look at/pick up a Soul frame I'd bought as I couldn't decide on colour/wrap. Walked through the reception area, into the despatch area and Cy got a couple of frames from the warehouse. Or as we know them... lounge, kitchen and hall way 😀

An old maxim is "you either have to be first or be the best". First in a new / niche area and people will buy and you might build up a large enough business to continue. Be the best and people will buy off you.

Good luck.

I guess that what I really am unsure about is how feasible it is to actually do while working full time and not having thousands in cash that I want to put up right from the start.

First off, you need money from somewhere. I put in my own cash to get started and have continued to top it up rather than take money out. I am getting there though. The more cash you can get your hands on the better. I think to do it 'properly' you need a sizeable investment, and a good idea of the product, promotion and distribution. Very hard to do strictly by yourself part time while working a full time job. I'm not trying to be discouraging, but don't expect much of a social (or even personal) life.

here you go , speak to these chaps , some of the builders on here may know them

xacd are absolute lunatics who I had the utmost difficulty even getting past drawing stage.

patent it

patenting is quite hard work.

ps: been doing sums in my head all day. I think in terms of capital to drop on stuff, in order to support yourself properly within a year of startup, you'd need £20-£50K to invest, plus whatever salary you'd want to draw.

Thanks brant. V useful to have some approx numbers.

20-50k, there goes my plans 😡

buy into a small or dormant brand and build up from there - a lot cheaper, and you might not repeat their mistakes.

clubber , is it your passion for bikes that make you want to start a company up OR do you ride and think "its getting bigger, i can make a kill here" ?

I have a mate here (oz) who has a really good job but is basically obsessed with riding and bikes , he has the strongest passion i have ever seen , hes no weight weenie or elite rider , he just loves the sport and everything to do with riding.

Basically he has provided a service to an out of city bike shop of servicing bikes for them , he has a website and does a bit of servicing from that too . He has just got a dealership for a brand of bike and is in the process of trying to "get it out there" , really nice frames too .

In this day and age the idea of "support your local bike shop" is dead in the water , places like wiggle and CR have cornered that so getting rich owning a bike shop is pretty rare now.

Saying that i know a small bike shop here and the guy has owned it for 45 years , he can build a sturmy archer 9 speed hub with his eyes shut , he can beat any price on bike bits hands down as he works there himself and has done for around 40 years , all he's doing now is topping up his pension ... if he ever retires as he's now 67 and no sign of the end , no spotty 15 year olds servicing your bike at his shop . He makes a good living from the name he has made for himself over the years.

So my thinking is start out servicing bikes , carry stock of seals and stuff , then go from there .... a lot of manufacturers are very reluctant to give "packs" to new perspective dealers. You need to home in on a unpopular brand then sell it hard.

I love bikes and I have an engineering background (lapsed mind...). I'm pretty clued up business-wise. I'm also very driven when there's something I want to achieve. A combination that in theory should be good for what I'm talking about but I'm trying to work out if it'd work in the real world for my circumstances.

Just to put my oar in, I put in the kind of money Brant is talking about, and then put some more in over time and didn't take anything out for over 3 years. That got me to the point of doing it full time.

If you're passionate about bikes and won't lose the farm if it goes tits up after getting your first 100 frames made, then go for it.

When you're an old man and laying on your deathbed, you won't regret the things you've done, only the things you didn't do.

Good luck!

Agree with what Brant and Cy said with regard to size of investment.

buy into a small or dormant brand and build up from there - a lot cheaper

Not really many costs you are likely to save by doing that. The main drain on cash is paying for large numbers of frames before you've sold them. Then you've got R&D, insurance and marketing costs etc, none of which will be reduced by having an existing brand. 'Brand' is an indistinct concept, but a critical one. Buying someone else's which may have other baggage attached to it which you may not want.

Why not do some proper market research? you can test any ideas you may have and actually get some input into what people want. Not sure what the rules are about this on here but its not hard to use something like survey monkey which costs peanuts to run for a few months, put a link on here with some wiggle or CRC vouchers as an incentive for completion and I'm sure you'd get a lot of responses, be happy to give you some advice on setting it up...or get it done independently to give you evidence of potential market if you want to approach some possible investors

I love bikes and I have an engineering background (lapsed mind...). I'm pretty clued up business-wise. I'm also very driven when there's something I want to achieve. A combination that in theory should be good for what I'm talking about but I'm trying to work out if it'd work in the real world for my circumstances.

I appreciate your motives and ambition Clubber, but if you value your time with your family the security of owning your house, car and personal belongings then I'd steer clear, I've just signed off a 10K guarantee which is scaring the hell out of me when business is bad and I have a child on the way.

I've no doubt you have the ability, but if you want to make a living from it it's going to require massive financial outlay which will need to be guaranteed by you, are you and your wife ready for / want that pressure?

I've been running this business on my own now for 5 years and it scares the hell out of me sometimes, even with it's 40 year heritage it's a very uncertain lifestyle.

What YETIboyJAY said about getting the actual bike right (geometry really) is imperative. It may sound obvious at the outset, but I have designed and made (or had made in the case of one) three bikes, and all could have done with a couple of iterations, despite 'borrowing' geometry from solid performing existing bikes.

Go for it and good luck I say!

Just out of interest and because they have already been mentioned. How much does a an XACD frame cost? Is that where druidh got his onion from?

Andy M? Spooky, that's me too!

If you want more info on XACD have a peek at [url= http://www.spanner.org.uk ]Spanner Bikes[/url]

Druidh's onion was off of the 'Bay and might be a Hi-Light I'm not sure...

"xacd are absolute lunatics who I had the utmost difficulty even getting past drawing stage." Now there's a quote 🙂

...and to answer your question about £500 - £650 depending on what you go for...

Druidh's bike is a Hi-Light.

I reckon the Apollo Creed is a better name than the Clubber Lang. 😉

Congratulations BTW Kingtut. 🙂

Don't skimp on the graphics/brand identity.

So many nice frames are ruined by dreadful sticker and badge designs.

So many nice frames are ruined by dreadful sticker and badge designs.

what the decals look like is irrelevant if the rear dropouts don't line up with the BB :rolleyes:

If someone said they would make bikes only from recycled aluminium, that would get my interest.

Clubber: unless you get scale its cottage industry territory.

However if you can put a financial £notes figure on what you need to live and ideally be happy then its worth a shot but there are very few rich people in the bike trade. But happiness doesn't have a value.

The reason Madison bought Saracen is purely because the cost of launching a new bike brand from scratch is prohibitive, especially if you want that brand to go beyond the niche enthusiast. Madison is one of the biggest players in the UK bike trade so I think that says alot.

The Pastey example is a brilliant one. They got all that press a few years back and where are they now? If I were you I'd ask them.

Get yourself a internship / apprenticeship with a framebuilder and learn everything you can.

Be careful you don't buy yourself a job which is something I see in the bike trade all the time.

Plus, has anyone mentioned currency fluctuations? If you're building overseas you are at the mercy of the strength or weakeness of the £ versus dollar / yen / euro etc and this is something forecast to run for a few more years yet. This will play havoc with your costs and price points.

UK bike imports are down this year but the cost of the bikes /frames is significantly up.

find a nice frame, copy the geometry, add a couple of features swiped from other brands (e.g. seatstay bridges) paint it a with a micro layer of cheap ccolour, make it out of gas tubing, charge 150 quid and try and find a factory in taiwan with an excellent warrenty so you just fill up a container with broken frames and get replacements for free. it helps if you use sonmeone elses money and have contacts in the mags

bobs your uncle.

you'll need a snappy name too.

- design your prototype on CAD software
- Get in touch with a frame builder and start to build up a relationship
- understand what their minimum order requirments are (possibly they want you to order 200 steel frames or 80 ti frames as a minumum or possibly not)
- Get said framebuilder to build your prototype from the CAD design (aren't they mainly in Taiwan not China BTW) and ship it to you
- ride the prototype and/or get it ridden by others and get feedback
- decide what changes you want to make
- update CAD design and send to framebuilder
- get a second prototype made and shipped over
- ride and test and submit any final adjustments
- get frames built to order in a variety of sizes and shipped over
- you've started marketing these already right or are they just gonna sit in a warehouse/your front room?
- pay import taxes, shipping costs etc.
- sell your frames to the general public who will feel comfortable shelling out on an unknown brand (you've thought of an amusing name for the frame too right?)
- make a fortune or as someone said above you can make a small amount of money provided you started with a large amount of money...

Probably millions of things i've overlooked like have you designed and ordered stickers for the frames, what finish are they going to be in, what colours are the frames gonna be painted, can clients order specific colours and frame sizes etc, have you set up a website to market them, can you accept payment by card or is it postal order only, what warranty will you give, mleh,mleh, mleh

But yes, some people do that and enjoy it. Good luck to them and i dont begrudge them anything.

The reason Madison bought Saracen is purely because the cost of launching a new bike brand from scratch is prohibitive, especially if you want that brand to go beyond the niche enthusiast. Madison is one of the biggest players in the UK bike trade so I think that says alot.

but they have spent a lot of money on marketing that brand this year, far more than they spend on genesis/ridgeback/cervelo/commencal (probably close to the combined budgets of these 4?) they didn't buy the saracen brand to save money on marketing/promotion etc but for the ready made names/identities. coming up with a brand name and a logo is the cheap bit. advertising space/trade stands and snazzy websites is what costs.

you could argue that the negative connotations could go against the brand but a few years ago not many would consider a genesis mtb but if the product is good (it is) this perception soon changes. by all accounts the saracen mtb's are very good and likely to sell well, possibly not niche enough for the STW bikesnobs though

RE: Genesis bikes, I remember thinking pfffft, a rebranded Ridgeback - and then I bought one this year lol.

That said, even when Saracen had kudos, I always thought it was a naff name then (yet was perfectly happy with Orange, fickle world eh!?)

Love Saracen and the new Kili Flyer looks lovely. My uncle had a conquest and a friend the Kili Flyer all from 88.

Used to sell tons of the old tufftrax in in 89. Came in a huge box ready to go and I mean literally ready to go, all you needed to do was fit the pedals and turn round the bars.

I'd happily buy one but I am not in the market.

Has anyone considered the ratio of exciting time (designing, liasing with manufacturers etc) to mundane time (sticking bits in boxes and taking them down to the post office that's likely to result?

Having said that, I'd say that there's a gap in the market for a reliable singlespeed cassette hub for £50 to £70.

Has anyone considered the ratio of exciting time (designing, liasing with manufacturers etc) to mundane time (sticking bits in boxes and taking them down to the post office that's likely to result?

Hehe, I remember once when I was having a drink with WIll@HunJub and he told me how he'd spent the day packing up bags of single ring chainset bolts ready to go in the post. That's life in the fast lane in the bike trade...

Mr Smith: yes Madison have spent alot but not nearly as much as if they had to start totally from scratch. My point is that they want Saracen to be bigger and more mainstream than their other bike brands hence the investment.

Genesis is being directed to the more niche steel / Ti mtb / fixie user and Ridgeback is essentially a commuter staple. Saracen is going into the lions den if you like, competing with established big guns hence buying the brand - rather than creating - and putting cash behind it.

just get some made here http://www.maxway.com.tw/
that's where everyone else gets them, then pretend you made them and stick some snazzy graphics on.

How does starting a bike company differ from starting any other company? Any new start-up needs time, money (usually lots!), knowledge and energy - if you've got all those and are prepared to accept the risks then go for it. If you're lacking in any area then its probably best to consider other options!!

Take it to say orange and develope it with them or similar
and then sell it as a percentage of sale.
If worth the risk they will put the money in.

Less risk also you get there experiance and guidence
which is worth its weight in gold and also contacts.
And more chance of getting it reviewed.

To expensive to buy into a workshop etc.

Are these out yet?

Holy ****ing thread resurrection!