[Closed] How to get hill fit?

I found a local hill to run and ride up really helped my hill climbing - on bike and foot. Running really helped gain fitness faster than riding.

I really ought to do it again.

For multi day back to back rides the two things I’ve done are…
1. Learn to ride to a lower perceived effort. Don’t smash every hill and don’t think you have to ride at your fastest average pace.
2. Ensure you are eating and drinking consistently throughout the day.

For training, really the best way to train for large hilly days is by doing hilly days. I’ve done a lot of multi day rides with lots of elevation. Anywhere between 3500 metres and 10,000 metres in a day.
My training generally involved using Sufferfest, so this would be 2 indoor sessions a week. Really focused on getting the cardio fitness up. One long fun ride on my own or with some slower friends. Hilly and long, but slow, this always had to be enjoyable, pace and effort very low. One long but hard group ride, this would be a road ride of approx 75 miles, fairly hilly but quite a tough pace. Finally one very easy 1 hour ride either indoor or outdoor, but again very easy.
As I got closer to the event I’d mix things up by doing some back to back long days and reducing the hard sessions.

What Matt said, and wOOdster too.

Spin more & 65% effort coupled with regular fueling. Do the minimum to climb each hill.

Your main problem is that you are using imperial measurements. As any serious amateur knows metric is pro, and therefore faster.

What w00dster said, especially this

the best way to train for large hilly days is by doing hilly days

How are you riding hills? Smashing up them out of the saddle or spinning / grinding up them?
What gearing are you normally using and what type of hills? If it's long steady ones it's likely to be a bit easier than loads of short steep lumps with little recovery time between each one.

More info needed...

Also, it's winter, it's cold and crap and that slows you down a bit anyway... 😉
(this is what I tell myself when I'm crawling up a hill!)

Ride more is the only answer, but if you want to do 'multi-days' then practice.

I normally ride a big ride on a Sunday (circa 4-5,000ft) and then go out mid-week (lunch and night ride) 2-3 times for shorter rides. So, why not just try and ride for a number of days on 1-1,500ft loops.

And then lift the elevation over time.

A HRM is handy, as others have said, stay out of the 'bad' zones and having the right gearing is really useful - you need a 'get me up' gear IME, or just get off and walk.

And lose weight. Every kg lost helps* when it comes to hills.

* within reason, I'm not talking about anorexic levels of weight loss here!

The You Tuber is mostly concerned with touring, but his formula to work out speed power output and so on can be as applicable to multi-day MTB rides. In essence there is a gear ratio/speed/power outpoint point at which any one (especially an experienced rider)  can maintain a climb almost indefinitely

I'm guessing your goal is about pacing yourself as much as it is increasing your range. Could you give yourself more time for your ride so you're not killing yourself, run a lighter gear than usual and lower your cadence?

I like his videos ^^
He's not done a huge amount recently, his touring got curtailed a lot due to Covid but he's done some really nice and informative videos.

the best way to train for large hilly days is by doing hilly days

As someone who just rides rather than "trains" - this chimes with my experience.

I'd suggest setting two or three days aside and doing rides with about 1,500m ascent each day - steady pace, stop for lunch and rest/eat well after the rides - no booze.

I was feeling out of shape and had only been doing shorter rides when I went on a week's trip to Wales last Spring. I ended up doing probably my biggest ever week of riding (about 10,000m ascent) over seven days, taking the above approach.

Apologies for being cynical, but this is a question that has a relatively obvious answer.

If you need to improve in something, do more of it. For what it's worth, if I want to get better at climbing. I drop my weight by a few kg for an event as it's a logical given, climbing is easier with less weight.

I also massively build on my elevation by including big hills in my ride. Stopping at them, and doing repititions on them, then moving on.

Sorry bud, this is the answer. There is no magic bullet.

I can do a ride with ~2500 feet (round here that can be in 15-30 miles depending mtb/road etc) but my legs really start to know about it and are heavy the next day. I also need the next day to recover (muscles and body battery!) – back-to-back riding seems unrealistic at the moment. Some of this is fall out of the last year or so of long covid.

On the long covid side of things, be kind to yourself. It's taken me six months to get back to something close to normal after around 18 months of being utterly trashed and unable to ride at all and it's been a gradual, ongoing process. I live in the Peak, so there isn't much that isn't hilly and I've been surprised by how fast my climbing legs have come back, but it's only in the last few weeks that I've started to feel 'right' on climbs again.

Give your body a chance to recover, which it sounds like you are. As above, long steady hills are relatively straightforward. If you're riding more jagged little repeated things and having to recover between each one, I think the long covid stuff will probably have hit you harder.

The two aspects of my on-bike fitness that have suffered disproportionately are my ability to recover quickly from short, hard efforts and my top-end power above threshold. Both those have made mountain biking feel really, really hard relative to being on the road because there's more of that sort of stuff inherent in off-road riding anywhere hilly. Mountain biking is tough, tougher than road riding, to do, but we tend to forget that because we get used to it. Mountain bike metres climbed are much harder than road ones.

Both are starting to come back now with a mix of mountain biking and short, sharp interval training. Oh, also I fitted a bigger cassette on my hardtail - was 11-42 now 11-46 - if you're having push a gear that feels too hard, a lower ratio might help by allowing you to spin more.

Sorry, longer than I intended 🙂

The Q is about lasting multi-day rides not just fitness. I'd say that as long as you've adequate fitness riding on successive days will be reet. You kind of get swept along with mates/by an event. And as the guy said in the doc about climbing all the 8,000m peaks in a season "when you think your ****ed, you're probably only about 40% ****ed".

(Forgot this forum doesn't like me using one of the most used words in English...)

I had this at the start of last year, on the MTB I wanted to be able to go ride big enduro days out in they welsh valleys doing 6 or 7k ft of climbing, my usual rides rarely broke 2k and hitting 3k or 4k was an effort.

Going out and targeting doing rides of 4k locally helped me, realising that for longer rides you wont attack every climb or descent. The other thing which really helped was figuring out what I could eat when riding and how I could carry it. Few rides to hit 4k and figured out the eating and drinking and I did several days in valleys with 6k and 7k of climbing fine over the summer.

I guess the question needs to be a bit clearer..
do you want to be FASTER at climbing (a certain hill),
or better at longer/multi day rides that include hills?

I often say "you control the power (watts)..the gradient controlls the speed"..which is similar to the video up there.
150 watts on the flat is still 150 watts if going uphill... you'll just be slower...

For multi day rides, building base fitness is key..the ability to jsut keep riding, training the body to fuel on teh go etc is improtant.
Just practicing this.
Also, multi day rides will probably need to be slower thana single faster one day effort..

Just keep going really!

DrP

Apologies for being cynical, but this is a question that has a relatively obvious answer.

If you need to improve in something, do more of it.

I do get where you are coming from - but I guess my question was the best way to do it - longer (slower) hilly rides, or hill reps (the latter I have no experience of)?

I guess the question needs to be a bit clearer..
do you want to be FASTER at climbing (a certain hill),
or better at longer/multi day rides that include hills?

The latter, DrP.

In answer to some of the Q's above - I work pretty hard on the hills (I am probably 2-3 kgs heavier than I'd like, but loosing them isn't that easy for various reasons). And I find myself digging hard, grinding away mainly trying to keep up with p20! My average HR is always about 20 bpm higher than his over the same ride, despite me taking beta blockers! Gearing on the MTB is 12 speed 32-51; the gravel bike gearing could be lower (can't quite remember the ratio but about as low as you can go on Ultegra, but not as low as p20's GRX).

I just don't find hills 'easy' (I am never going to be a climber), but I'd just like to ride further/hiller routes and not feel trashed. I will get back on the turbo looking at the weather forecast; whereas I have enjoyed the mild Jan outside and commuted more (especially as I finally feel I can, post long covid).

Thanks for all the really useful comments 🙂

And I find myself digging hard, grinding away

stop doing that. it's why you're broken after a day and 2500m climbing. learn to sit up and chill a bit more. If there's one hang up from the roadie world that we've still yet to shed, it's the idea that we all have to be able to climb like a Tour Pro. **** that shit.

Fit a smaller chainring to the mtb. On properly long rides, no-one EVER complains that their gears are too low.

Yeah, find your "never going to stop pace". Practice it. If you are digging deep you'll never last.

Maybe practice a 5km hilly loop, and do 10 loops. Time each loop and your looking for when the loop times level off. When doing 24 hour stuff I find I'm "zipping" along at 40 mins a lap and then after 12 hours or so I'm at 50 mins but I don't get any slower.

Your main problem is that you are using imperial measurements. As any serious amateur knows metric is pro, and therefore faster.

Metric is faster when measuring distance, no doubt about it. But imperial is more awsumz for elevation. There's nothing I enjoy more than a nice 160km road ride with a good 10,000ft of climbing.

When I decided I wanted to do the Fred Whitton (and then the coast to coast in a day) I had never ridden further than 50 miles, and thought it was way beyond me. However, I came to realise that I was knackered after my 50 mile rides because I aimed my effort to be just about spent by the end, tried to push it on the climbs etc. When I realised I could ride slower and keep eating, it became clear that riding a bike all day is actually no real problem. I made a concerted effort to do the minimum effort on the ups to just keep rolling, and by not going in the red I was able to sustain riding pretty much as long as I wanted. Coast to coast in a day was 150 miles and Hardknott/Wrynose at the start and 3 x 1:3 climbs in North Yorkshire after about 130 miles, and I was pretty much fine with the 'minimum effort' strategy. I'm never going to compete with the whippets, but it is interesting to find what is possible just with a change of mentality.

Sorry OP, forgot to give my opinion on your question! I'd suggest a combination:

1. Long rides at endurance pace (60-70% effort), with as much climbing as you can comfortably achieve. Extend these over time. This will help you build a good solid base and get some miles into your legs.
2. Shorter rides at a faster pace (say 80-90% effort) with some hill work. Maybe find a shortish loop and do laps, you want to make sure you have a recovery period between efforts. Over time increase the duration of the high intensity periods and reduce the recovery periods. This should help with anaerobic capacity and recovery.

At some point as your fitness improves, perhaps start to ride on two consecutive days to get used to multi-day activity. One thing that is also important is time in the saddle - while fitness is key, the ability to spend long hours in the saddle on consecutive days is not to be ignored. It takes a while to get your arse used to that kind of suffering, not to mention your mental state.

Finally, make sure you eat and drink regularly. Practice this throughout your training rides - if you aren't fuelled properly it doesn't matter how fit you are, you'll either bonk and stop, or be miserable.

I used to have a 1940s cycling book from my parents, who were keen club tourists. The sentence from it that always sticks in my mind is: One hill walked in the morning equals two hills ridden in the afternoon.

But imperial is more awsumz for elevation.

The mountains are on the OS maps in metric, so that's what mountain bikers should use.

This is an interesting thread as I'm looking to improve my climbing, although my situation is a bit different.

I'm currently in cardiac rehab. mode following multiple heart attacks, one of which killed off part of my heart muscle (so I've a reduced ejection fraction & moderate LVSD and the potential for periodic angina). I'm also on a lot of medication including beta blockers which of course limit my heart rate.

I've also got a very heavy bike, it's a steel hardtail which I use as a gravel bike (the vast majority of riding is on-road) and weighs over 29lbs (I used to be able to work it hard up Cheddar Gorge a couple of times a week).

I've currently built myself back up to a couple of close to 30 mile rides a week and try to include a good (for me) climb in each one; I'm currently able to slowly limp back up into the Mendips up the Deer Leap & Old Bristol Road climbs (although Deer Leap can have me gasping away in my lowest gear at its steepest).

I like to push myself but I don't want to 'train' as such (although I am trying to gradually increase what I do), I'm just trying to pitch my cycling at a level where it's good for my health but I still enjoy the riding & being out in the countryside). I do have a trainer but I just hate using it (and haven't done for over a year - it's no longer set up).

I'm looking forward to the Spring and Summer when I'll undoubtedly do more cycling and there's plenty to consider from this thread (I'm very much a 'sit and spin' rider and I've never managed to learn to climb out of the saddle - I probably ought to try!).

Have you got access to a power meter, on the bike or on a turbo you can use regularly?

How about a heart rate monitor? If so, have you done anything close to an all out 20min+ effort in the last few weeks?

If you have and you aren't already a free member, you could join crickles.org and get some meaningful zones to use as a starting point for some training.

One hill walked in the morning equals two hills ridden in the afternoon.

I don't know where to start with that! I wonder if it said, in the next sentence, that it's probably not worth riding the 2 climbs in the afternoon. Better to sit in the pub and take the train home. In fact, sell the bike and go to Benidorm instead.

😀

I’m currently able to slowly limp back up into the Mendips up the Deer Leap & Old Bristol Road climbs (although Deer Leap can have me gasping away in my lowest gear at its steepest).

I wouldn't beat yourself up about being slow up Deerleap. It's a tough climb even for those of us with a fully working heart!

Actually getting back to the OP and putting the Rapha factor to one side this looks pretty good:

https://www.rapha.cc/gb/en/stories/the-pennine-rally

Five days may seem generous, but this is a rally not a race. Riders are encouraged to enter with the spirit of adventure in mind, not a fast finishing time.

...so absolutely this is one to approach as steady away, keep going all day and enjoy it. I can think of few folks who I'd not consider to be particularly fit and who are slow on climbs, but just keep going day after day. This may be something you can train for if you want to go quickly (and posters above clearly know more), but to just do the ride assuming as I say some minimum level of fitness which the OP will be some considerable way above by the sound of it, it's more about toughness and attitude.

I quite like the look actually, but five days is a lot.

Gym work really helps get good leg strength and if you're doing it 1-2 times per week, you should be able to get pretty strong legs which you can then transfer over to the bike, which will also help massively with your endurance.
You don't need to use massive weights either, just slow the reps down, that way there is less chance of injuries.
Squats, leg press and hamstring curls is what I concentrate on in the gym, while also core work in between sets.
Big gear hill reps will also build strength and are good to do after a gym session.

There is a lot to be said for "to get better at X, you need to do more X". But how much are you able to practise doing 5 day rides?

can do a ride with ~2500 feet (round here that can be in 15-30 miles depending mtb/road etc) but my legs really start to know about it and are heavy the next day. I also need the next day to recover (muscles and body battery!) – back-to-back riding seems unrealistic at the moment.

I'd recommend trying some back to back rides. Even if that means a short one the morning after when your legs are dead, just to get oyurself into the habit of setting off when already tired.

My boss did some fancy roadie corporate networking type thing, 5 days riding in France. Limited time to train (3 kids and a business to run) so was usually doing one long ride on a weekend, and something midweek evening in the summer. I got him to do a 1.5-2h ride in an evening, and again the next morning.

I don’t know where to start with that! I wonder if it said, in the next sentence, that it’s probably not worth riding the 2 climbs in the afternoon.

The book was written at a time when most riders rode a "machine" that weighed as much as a current downhill bike and had either one or three gears. And the average club run was well over 50 miles, riders wearing tweeds and the club tie!

I’d recommend trying some back to back rides. Even if that means a short one the morning after when your legs are dead, just to get oyurself into the habit of setting off when already tired.

Last week I did manage ride on Tuesday (12 mile commute, train home), gym the following day, commute on Thursday, gym on Friday (post covid benchpress and deadlift PBs). Then rest day Saturday, followed by 25 mile gravel ride in the NYMs on the Sunday. By the weekend ride my legs were pretty shot and the hills felt very hard work. But I was pleasantly surprised that I could at least ride to work, after a gym session the day before. Though, obviously not the same a cardio load. This week I then have have had 2 rest days so far, as I was tired after Sunday's ride. It'll be gym or turbo this evening.

The mountains are on the OS maps in metric, so that’s what mountain bikers should use.

Even worse, I have a PhD in Physical Geography!! Its just my legs know how they feel in feet!

I am liking the general advice of slow down and eat lots - I could get on board with this approach to cycling. In fact that is kind of what I want to be able to do. I would never race an Ultra, but I like listening to/reading about that type of riding.

my question was the best way to do it – longer (slower) hilly rides, or hill reps (the latter I have no experience of)?

Both.

As someone above mentioned, you're sore because you're grinding. While you'd be amazed at what you can churn out on the second day of a two day ride (if you were at home you'd feel sorry for yourself but after ten minutes in the saddle you're back to normal) you can make it easier for yourself.

Hill reps will make you stronger for riding up hills. They're horrible but really help. You don't have to do them much for what you're doing. Every couple of weeks. They'll change the level you'd be grinding at - as you get stronger you'll find your lower gears easier on the same hill at the same pace. Which will help your recovery from big days out where you’ll be riding at a lower effort.

But you’ll also need to do hillier rides normally. I’m in a similar position, having lost a lot of top end power after a 3 week break at Christmas. I’m trying to force myself not to take the easiest way, and if I can add one extra hill to a ride even if it’s only half a mile going back the way I’ve come at the end of the ride. All this should add up to more hill strength.

As someone who races but hates training indoors, or even anything that could be branded as training, I find that infinitely preferable to sitting on a turbo or going to a gym.

^ agreed. Polarisation is the key ime. Though effective training for me and you or the OP might be different, for me and training for long loaded rides either ride really hard for a short time or ride easy (z2) for a long time. Get the mix right and adjusted over a period and you get faster overall.

Hill reps will make you stronger for riding up hills.

They also increase your base pace which I find is key to long distance stuff. As your top end increases it brings up all your levels. We can all ride in Z1-2 all day already, training the top end makes your Z2 pace noticeably quicker or improves your recovery by stressing you less overall if you ride at the same pace as before. Also improves your ability to put in short efforts throughout a ride without them adding up too much.

I hate the turbo but the benefits are enough to justify it if needed. Otherwise, hilly trail runs are good for HI over a shorter period.

Anyway, for this sort of ride, as a regular rider I expect you'll be fine if you start out feeling fresh and just enjoy the ride.

10k verical metres in a day is tough - presumably not round Surrey? (Woodster )

The key piece of kit you need is probably an extra jacket and maybe a newspaper for your regular ride partner of they are way faster up the hills (and/or they carry a large flask + donuts to have ready at the top). For long rides definitely need to go at your pace and eat loads.
Definitely be kind to yourself a bit post Covid. I'm 20 months in now and still only doing short rides on good days (rarely this winter).
The amount of training you are doing is far from trivial, irrespective of COVID so feeling tired is normal. When I trained a lot as a student (for rowing not cycling) walking up stairs always hurt and could be agony during a heavy training block but you could still belt it out every afternoon in the boat.
Hill reps do help but and are agony to do but easier if you go with someone else. If the other person is a different pace just agree a time (2 or 3 or whatever minutes) of up before you turn round and regroup to gasp air on the way back down.
PS some of those moors climbs are total killers. I remember being poleaxed after a club road ride up and down to Blakey Ridge and Rosedale once (a lot of years ago) with a 42 small ring and always chasing. It was a lot easier when I did it a few years ago whilst the youngest was in nursery in Danby on my old nth hand audax bike with a triple chainring.

I used to live in NW Suffolk (nr Thetford), I now live in North Portugal ..... flat is a fond memory! Seriously though I have been surprised how well I've adapted. Using brakes with purpose and finally feeling real benefit in the twinlock has been a revelation! Amazing area for cycling (Mtb and road).

My basic MTB ride is 3500ft over 30 miles of South Downs. Two things I find make a difference:
- riding regularly on road or gravel for general fitness / weight control
- not wearing a backpack

Aside from that, I tend to sprint up short steep hills and call it an interval, and stay seated and steady cadence on longer grinds. As is obvious, the more hills you ride the better you get at them.

I love hills on the road but I’m heavy so they are hard. I live in the peak last time I seriously trained for them I just started riding as much elevation in as short distance. I eventually got to 8000ft in about 50 miles without any repeats. I find using a power meter really helped I set myself a limit of 200 watts on the climbs (unless it needed more to turn the pedals). I found I could ride all day in the Pyrenees doing this recovering on the descents. You could do the same using a HRM finding the HR where you don’t blow up.

The key piece of kit you need is probably an extra jacket and maybe a newspaper for your regular ride partner of they are way faster up the hills (and/or they carry a large flask + donuts to have ready at the top)

@p20 please take note 😉

You could do the same using a HRM finding the HR where you don’t blow up.

This is a good point. I was doing this when managing my Covid recovery, but since I’ve been able to push myself, I’ve stopped doing so. I should bring that back into the mix.

Singlespeed, makes you stronger, increases power output, and not as bad as hill reps (or the gym, in my opinion!)

Then for big days out, you take a geared bike and everything seems easy 🙂