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I consider myself an ok cyclist who is a reasonably competent climber. As such I was considering a trip to the lakes to do a few of the big climbs, hardknott etc.
Anyhow today I did a sportive in Tayside that included the glen quaich climb, which is rated as one of the hardest in scotland, it's 9% average for 3 miles, but the first mile is absolutely brutally steep, the second half is almost flat in comparison.
I got up it, but it was a real struggle. At one point I looked at my power reading and was putting out about 380 watts just to turn the pedals..at around 40 rpm. And I was using a 34/32 gear!
Thing is whilst it was brutally steep compared to anything I've ever been up before, it's absolutely nothing compared to the 30% ramps of hardknott. I looked on strava afterwards and I was 4th fastest on the day up the steep bit, so obviously not that bad. But I genuinely don't think I could get up hardknott based on my exp today.
So..how do people get up it? Is it only ridable by cat 1/2 quality riders, or is it not actually as steep as everyone says it is?
Depends on your chainset. Easy on mtb, do-able on a compact road but quite tough on a standard road chainset if the road is wet...
It's got 30 degree ramps, but they only last a few dozen yards each. So a different beast altogether. There's only one way to find out if you can do it, and you'll have a great day either way. Remember to save something for Wrynose, it's no pushover,as it were.
It's quite tricky on 34/28 on a damp road with 100 miles in your legs
I've driven over it a few times. I'm not scared of a decent climb.
I have no idea how people ride up it either!
I first rode up Hardknott on 39x23 - luckily I didn't really know what what coming - the second time was far worse - even getting over the cattlegrid at the bottom in the wet is a bit sketchy for starters.
I managed it east to west last summer without dying, on an Orange Alpine (10sp double) with a 30l rucksack and some bikepacking gubbins attached. Other than a couple of hairpin corners it wasn't particularly memorable, and no more severe than say Honister Pass (again east to west...)
Can be tricky in a car. First car I went in was an original Mini. No power and no synchro on first gear. Lots of grating noise.
I’m no whippet climber, but managed my goal of no dabs on the Fred whitton on 34-28. The steep ramps are short, and if you go wis on the hairpins you get some relief. It’s not too bad, just don’t psych yourself out!
Got up it and Wrynose on a compact road set up on the C2C in a day. Obviously early on in he day. Doubt I would have after a ton already in my legs like they do on the Fred W. Fair play to those that do.
I remember having to stop on the hairpins in a 2cv. Took 10 seconds to start moving again at full revs.
I seem to remember it being quite painful but other people stalling and falling off in front of you being the major barrier. I just about managed to thread my way through and then nearly stalled on the last ramp after the hairpins.
tpbiker - is that the climb up from Kenmore? It’s a tough one.....but Hardknott is in a different league. Done both but maybe Hardknott was harder than normal as I did it during Fred Whitton ride.
As has been stated above... bloody hard with 100 miles in your legs and 10,000ft climbing already in the bag.
Fred Whitton Challenge- hard day out!
I've done it at the start of the C2C in a day and at the end of the Fred Whitton without unclipping on 34/30. I'd struggle at current fitness level though. Having good balance or trackstand ability helps, not only for a little respite but also for the stallers in front. A bit of stubbornness helps too, "if I wanted to walk, I would have left the bike at home" is what my inner voice says.
A lot of swearing.(Ive done it on a MTB , not tried with a road bike.)
🙂
is that the climb up from Kenmore?
That's the one.
Hardknott is in a different league
That's what I suspected! I read somewhere that hardknott requires a minimum of 4 watts per kilo to get up, but on today's experience you'd need much much more than that. 4 watts per kilo is a fraction over my ftp, but surely you need to be putting out close to double that on the 30% sections. I appreciate they are short but just turning the pedals sounds like it requires a huge effort.
Only one way to find out I guess, however I need to plan a route that lets me hit it fresh. Doesn't look particularly accessible without numerous other hills involved beforehand!
It's just daft, outside the normal bike riding envelope really. Have done it on the MTB acouple oftimes, never tried on the road bike but the cattle grid messes with your mind and the first couple of pulls are horrible. After that it's more a mental game. Stop for a look backdown eskdale, a sarnie and a tab by the fort, no point over doing it.
I read somewhere that hardknott requires a minimum of 4 watts per kilo to get up, but on today’s experience you’d need much much more than that.
How *did* people ride up hills before they knew their FTP?!
It's a mix of technique, equipment (low enough gears and a reasonable rear tyre) and sometimes luck (like not having traffic coming down or other riders falling off in front of you).
Decent core strength to allow that fine balance at 2mph and a low enough gear that your knee caps aren't popping out and the mental attitude to push yourself through it.
Did it on 34/28 once (a road-ified CX bike). I'm sure that the very first time I did Fred Whitton though I was on my steel road bike with 39/25. I think that's the reason I've always used my CX bike every time I've gone back there!
Did it on the C2C last year, would say unsurprisingly most of its fitness and pacing to the 30% ramp, when on the ramp though technique is pretty key, just keeping Continual solid contact with the pedals and holding the bars firmly straight. They'll want to turn sharpely if you don't maintain a slow and steady speed. Don't zig zag. Just get it done straight up.
I best phone it up and retract my ride up it ..
My w/kg only 3.3
I found it easier on the bike that in my 68 bhp Berlingo to be fair
TpBiker, is this part of some sort of humblebrag where you actually reveal you were doing 15mph up the Quaich? 😉
Have ridden the Quaich several times, from both sides, and it just seemed like a long unpleasant climb!
Hardknott at the end of the FW was intimidating, and my quads cramped going into it although I managed to shake it out, and actually had to accelerate up the inside of a train of riders who were all but stalled on the outside of THE hairpin. Rode the rest with zero dignity but also zero dabs.
I'm pretty sure from the XC thread that you're fitter than me, so you'll be grand, especially if running 34x28 or lower.
My uncle drove a Bedford QL up that road as a test. Some of the corners took 4 or 5 reversing on opposite lock to get round. He said it was quite hairy.
Last time I rode up it was on a Clockwork Orange carrying a 30l rucksack filled with a week’s clothing. In the rain. It was hard, but not as bad as the people from the Morgan club were finding it.
Done it on a road bike 34-28 without much drama. It was dry though.
Dartmoor has worse hills.
It's many years since I rode Hardknott, and that was by accident - I left a friend to plan our route, only checking it over the night before.
When I saw where she'd planned for us to ride I said "Do you not know what all those little chevrons mean?!"
We were on our crappy road bikes, but just took it very, very slowly. If you're prepared to move like a tortoise and can put up with the pain then it's doable. We even rode up the Wrynose* the same day.
I think the best cup of coffee I ever had was at the top of Hardknott.
* which for many years I believed was named "the Rhinos". I did always wonder why.
I did it on the Fredalike (we just nicked the GPX) last year. I thought I'd sussed it with a 50/34 and an 11-40 cassette on my 7kg road bike... Until Honister when I broke the bottom 3 sprocket cluster (Recon cassettes = useless) and ended up 8 speed 11-32.
There are 2 really steep bits; at the start and 2/3rds the way up. I managed to get up without dabbing or stopping but cadence was low and I've no idea of power but 'sufficient' presumably.
If you're a fit road rider, have light gear/are not too lardy, ride compact plus 11-32 and pace it, you should be fine (no implied guarantee etc). Oh and like off road, move around to balance traction/wheelying.
TpBiker, is this part of some sort of humblebrag where you actually reveal you were doing 15mph up the Quaich
Ha..unfortunately not. As I said I could barely turn the pedals at points. I found it seriously tough even with a 32 out back
Which is why I struggle to figure out how I'd get up something much harder without walking.
My w/kg only 3.3
I'm assuming they meant for the duration of the climb..
Back in the day I did it with 36x28. Me and my mates called it the Hardnose expedition. Both passes both ways. But although I was young and generally fit I wasn't a serious cyclist.
My memory is that one side has much more assent the other is steeper. I met a guy who did it in 42x24.
If I do it again I'll have a 20inch gear or less. Less power more weight these days
I've done it twice on the Whitton on a compact running 34:26, I think, the first time. And the second, because that was the largest cassette my Campag group-set allowed. I was okay fit both times. Thing is, it's not a constant gradient. In fact it comes in two section with a sort of recovery flat about a third of the way up and even then, there are only a few really steep hair-pinned ramps on it. You can always back off a little on the less steep sections.
I think part of the problem people have is that from the bottom, you can see pretty much the entire climb laid out in front of you, which is quite intimidating, especially on the Whitton where you look up and see loads of people pushing on the steep bits. But mostly it's just stubbornness and fitness. It probably helps if you live and ride somewhere with lots of steeps. The whole ftp thing just sounds like overthinking to me.
The whole ftp thing just sounds like overthinking to me
That kind of sums up this forum 🙂
It's a glorious climb but honestly it's not that hard to get up - Any decent mountain biker should be OK with it on a sensible cassette. The middle bit is a blessing from heaven that can be soft-pedalled, and you'll know how to lay down power for the hard top third from doing do-or-die mountain bike climbs. You also have to go into it with commitment and clarity of mind, as the first third is hard.
Doing it with big miles in the legs is a different story, though, as there's a risk of cramp even if you're very strong [there was a vid up on the FW website of a very fast lad who's gone round under 6 hours, saying even he's cramped on HK and had to get off].
You really need your war-face here, so not I'm going to try my best, not it would be really nice to make it up, it's more I'd rather have a cardiac arrest and get carried off the mountain in a box than fail to make this climb - At least that's what it took for me. Most of the FW field don't really want to get up it, deep down, so just climb off early doors.
Best of luck to those taking it on in 2 weeks - feels quite emotional cresting over the top 🙂
No idea how the old-timey roadmen got up it on their tiny gears - I think that is a question of exceptional power to weight pushing a 21 block up there or whatever they used to use.
Flaperon which hills in Dartmoor are worse? I've ridden most of them and Hardknot is much more hurty.
i rode up it a month or so ago.
rode from satterthwaite out to little langdale, up wrynose, up hardnott, turnd round at the top and then rode back over wrynose.
bike was a ecr with 3'' tyres.
Flaperon which hills in Dartmoor are worse? I’ve ridden most of them and Hardknot is much more hurty.
Dartmeet probably gets close, it’s not as long or high overall buts it’s in one hit without any let up.
Widecombe hill is pretty sustained without any letup.
The climb out of bovey to Haytor is a monster buts it’s got a number of flat sections to recover.
I’ve only ridden in the lakes for the FW once but I’ve ridden pretty much every climb on Dartmoor and I’d say the FW was a harder ride than anything I’ve done down here.
Hardknot is way harder than both Dartmeet and Widdecombe.
It probably helps if you live and ride somewhere with lots of steeps
Could be some truth in that. I rode over last summer in the mizzle, looking forward to it having struggled over aged 14 on a ten speed.
Was nothing compared to my memory of it, the descent was much worse. 39x25, seated (coz of the greasy road). Yet there were fit-looking riders zigzagging up it, maybe they were in the 5th hour of their ride, who knows.
Only properly tough road climb I've done is the Muro di Sornamonear Lake Como. Anyone know how it compares to that?
That looks like a more consistent gradient than Hardknott
https://veloviewer.com/segment/2182738/salita+del+Muro+di+Sormano+
I reckon Dartmeet is worse.
Having said that this might be because I thought that the first big climb out of Ashburton was Dartmeet, only to be unpleasantly surprised a few minutes later.
Widecoombe is tame in comparison, just spin up. Loads of little climbs getting on for 25%+ round the Teign Valley.
On the other hand, I've not ridden a FW so reserve the right to change my mind.
I've not been up hard knott pass, but how does it compare to winnats pass in Castleton. I've never ridden it, but it looks tough.
but how does it compare to winnats pass in Castleton
It is harder
It is harder
Yep. Winnats gets proper steep for a short section at the top, but it's much shorter. It's all subjective, depends on your strengths and weaknesses and preferences and personal history with a particular climb as well. I quite like Hardknot. Rationally I know that Honister is easier, but I just properly dislike it from the Borrowdale side. It's just nasty and steep and just a little bit steep for a little bit too long in a way you don't quite expect.
Having said that this might be because I thought that the first big climb out of Ashburton was Dartmeet, only to be unpleasantly surprised a few minutes later.
If this was from the Dartmoor demon you posted about the other day, you didn’t do dartmeet. Your probably thinking about Holne chase and the climb out of newbridge up to poundsgate.
To be honest though, the hardest climb for me on the FW was cold fell. The wheels nearly fell off there for me.
Mainly because I’d convinced myself the feed station was before it.
Garry_Lager
...No idea how the old-timey roadmen got up it on their tiny gears – I think that is a question of exceptional power to weight pushing a 21 block up there or whatever they used to use.
Pre-war, either fixed, singlespeed, or for the softies, a 3 speed Sturmey-Archer hubgear. 🙂
Your probably thinking about Holne chase and the climb out of newbridge up to poundsgate.
Oops. First time on a road bike in Devon, though I grew up mountain biking on Dartmoor.
I watched a guy climb it a couple of years ago & I thought he must be on an E road bike but he wasn’t, he literally raced up. He was obviously a fit git.
softies, a 3 speed Sturmey-Archer hubgear
I thought all men were men then, pay, big girls blouses 🤣🤣🤣
I watched a guy climb it a couple of years ago & I thought he must be on an E road bike but he wasn’t, he literally raced up
Always impressed with this video. The way he attacks the climb and also the in-car comments.
Rob Jebb? Mind, I'd get up there on a penny farthing if being hunted down by a Herbalife rep
Got up it (just) on 36/28. Had the delights of Wrynose, the struggle and great Dunn fell after this 😳
https://flic.kr/p/MGZ5Qq
You're on your big ring! Admit it, did you get dropped off at the top for the picture? 🙂
Moved it over for the decent 😉 Was a big day out that. 202miles with 18k of climbing. My arse has never forgiven me 😆
That video..^ around 7.20 in..dear Lord that looks brutally steep!
I have a confession. My rear wheel lost traction and I dabbed at that point around 7.20 in. I must go back and have another go. I may even go and do some hill reps on it like @twinklydave did a few years ago 😉
Did it last year on the Fred for the first time, in very good conditions. Made sure I left a bit in the tank for it, and it wasn't too bad. As people have said, soft pedal for the majority and then put the effort in on the steep corners.
I found some of the climbs on the Ronde Van Calderdale, albeit shorter, more challenging.
As people have said, soft pedal for the majority and then put the effort in on the steep corners
This seems sensible but how the hell do you soft pedal up a 20% gradient without an mtb cassette. Found This video
He's doing about 350 watts at 40 rpm. If he turned the cranks any slower hed surely fall over!! Can't believe folks can get up that with 100 hard miles in the legs. If I ever attempt it I'll be doing it at start of ride for sure.
Yes, 34 compact and 32 cassette all the way. Essential to avoid being in the red too much on the climbs.
once did it on a zxr750rr motorbike, it took a couple of goes to get round some of the tighter corners near the top, having to actually stop and roll the bike backwards to get round, the cattle grid at the bottom is tricky on a mountain bike never mind a road bike, I have maximum respect for anyone doing "the Fred" its a very underestimated challenge imho.
I must confess I've done all the big passes in the Lakes apart from Hardknott and Wrynose. I did Kirkstone from the north today and bugger me, that was must harder than either of the southern options. How does Hardnott compare to Kirkstone pass from Ullswater?
How does Hardnott compare to Kirkstone pass from Ullswater?
It's harder
Need a new cassette then I think. 36x28 isn't low enough for me.
I have been over it once on my old BSA with pillion and full luggage. NO problems bar it was total gridlock with cars for about 5 miles each side - and I mean total . NO cars could get thru at all. they must have been there for hours
I was once in a VW Polo coming from Eskdale. Four of us in it. Driver was a wimp of the first order. At the first tight hairpin he stopped then free wheeled back down the hill. He made the three of us get out and walk because he didn't think the car would make it with four adults in. It was raining and his wife was 6 months preggie, but out we had to get and walk to the top.
Haven't seen him since!
It's important to not confuse % and degrees! A 30% climb is (relatively) easy, a 30 degree one, pretty much impossible!
(of course on an MTB, where you have the big rings at the back rather than on the front, it's a bit different. My roadie mates are always impressed when i tell them my MTB runs a 50 tooth ring because they are thinking i've got that large ring fitted to the cranks..... 😉
Need a new cassette then I think. 36×28 isn’t low enough for me.
Gearing is key. If Froome runs a 32 cassette in the mountains then how on earth would an average recreation cyclist think 28 would be enough for big hills?
So many people are probably beaten by poor gearing choice rather than their ability to do it especially at the tail end of the FW.
how on earth would an average recreation cyclist think 28 would be enough for big hills?
..because he might have 4 or 5 high and much longer passes to do on that day, 2 weeks into a Grand Tour? I've done 6k miles over most stuff in the Lakes and Forest of Bowland on that set up so I suppose you the question is whether it would be worth someone buying a new cassette (and possibly derailleur) to do one particular climb. They didn't have much choice before compact chainsets.
Did it a few years ago on a compact and 34t cassette. Tough climb and was chuffed to make it up (fifty, fat, unfit).
Rode a loop from Torver, Broughton, Ulpha, Birker Fell(?), Hardknott, Wrynose, Coniston, Torver.
I find this a weird conversation on an MTB forum. Compared to the classic difficult off road climbs Hardnott is a whole load of nothing. It's hard work and goes on for ages, but this idea that it's borderline whether you'll manage it or not is just weird. It's a road, get in the right gear and cycle up it. Job done.
And as for all this macho "I did it on a forty six sixteen blahblahblah. Who cares if you did it on a badly chosen setup.... similar sort of crap that skiers used to come up with about ski length.
username checks out
Is it only ridable by cat 1/2 quality riders
Definitely not. You want to be reasonably fit and preferably not carrying too much weight, but it's do-able. It's a walking pace climb. Stand on the pedals and your bike inches forwards. Bit of power required on the steepest bits, but it's not a constant gradient by any means, so that means some short bursts between a pretty moderate effort. Leave your ego at home and grind it out.
^good advice
And as for all this macho “I did it on a forty six sixteen blahblahblah. Who cares if you did it on a badly chosen setup…. similar sort of crap that skiers used to come up with about ski length.
Totally. I stopped and changed to my 50 tooth MTB cassette at the bottom .
Oh no wait -rather than microanalysing my ride and changing out cassette for one single climb. I run what i brung.
To be honest though, the hardest climb for me on the FW was cold fell. The wheels nearly fell off there for me.Mainly because I’d convinced myself the feed station was before it.
Cold Fell is horrendous. It's not a "named" climb so no-one expects it, they're all mentally shitting themselves about Hardknott & Wrynose. Cold Fell though comes at that mental low point in a big ride, around the 70-ish mile mark when you know you've still got 40 miles to go and 2 massive climbs. It's also usually right into the wind and it's incredibly exposed.
Hardknott just has this "reputation" about it - yes it's a tough climb and it's beyond what most cyclists would ever have access to but it's far from impossible. Cycle tourists have been getting over it for decades well before the invention of compact chainsets, power meters, heart rate monitors and disc brakes.
Fair enough, it's not exactly on the weekend club run list, it's one of those climbs that most cyclists would only ever do maybe 3 or 4 times in a decade! And that means people remember it with rose-tinted specs and a sense of the "wow, it was epic" mentality which perpetuates the reputation.
Cold Fell is horrendous. It’s not a “named” climb so no-one expects it, they’re all mentally shitting themselves about Hardknott & Wrynose. Cold Fell though comes at that mental low point in a big ride, around the 70-ish mile mark when you know you’ve still got 40 miles to go and 2 massive climbs. It’s also usually right into the wind and it’s incredibly exposed.
Yup. Even with proper low gears, cold fell fully sucked.
Anyone tried it with a grade 2 soleus tear.
Did mine on Friday and got the Fred this Sunday. Should be fun, I can hardly walk at the moment, never mind square dance up Hardknott.
It's worth having a look at Simon Warren's 100 climbs and another 100 climbs books/website for a comparison but comparing long steady climbs with short steep ramps is always going to be difficult. He's written a PDF for the Fred Whitton's climbs -
, no surprise that Hardknott is the hardest.
There's a lot of "unnamed" climbing on the FW, the course notes give 3900 metres of ascent but add up the ascent from the above PDF and you get 1881 metres for the main, named, climbs.
And as for all this macho “I did it on a forty six sixteen blahblahblah. Who cares if you did it on a badly chosen setup…. similar sort of crap that skiers used to come up with about ski length.
I think people who mentioned gearing, in my case anyway, were actually just making the point that a perfectly average rider with normal road gears - a compact anyway - can ride up the thing. The machismo seems to be mostly in your head. Just saying.
When the biggest real climbs I've done are the cat3 up Bell Hill (just north of Petersfield) and the cat3 from Butser Ancient Farm to Butser summit, trying to visualise the effort to get up something like Hardknott is beyond me at the mo.
Dell Rd and Bitterne Way both hit ~20%, but they are very short inclines that can be ascended comfortably in under 2mins, just like Speltham Hill in Hambledon and Lynch Lane in Warnford.
I'm hoping to tackle Bwlch Y Groes from the south this year and average 300W+, but my FTP has taken a massive setback after a lurgy stopped me power training for almost two months, doing ~260W up the Zwift Innsbrook reverse KOM earlier nearly killed me.