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I tend to buy second hand bikes partly because I can use my existing parts, partly because the less I spend on each bike, the more bikes i can have.
I tend to go for steel frames because I like them.
At what point though is a frame okd enough to have basically only the value of the steel in it? At what point is it not going to have enough life left in it to be not worth buying at any price?
If you go by the bicycle blue book as a guide to value, a 4 year old frame is worth 25% of rrp if it is in excellent condition. Very few frames are going to be excellent after 4 years. I don't see many 4 year old frames for sale at that sort if price.
My ti mtb is 20 years old, my steel road bike frame is 50+ ish years old, My alloy tandem is 15 years old.
In theory steel has a virtually infinite fatigue life, alloy has a limited life but in practice if its not built too light a frame goes on for ever
This is 'Trusty Rusty', Tange Prestige fillet brazed in 1990 & still going strong.
(even though the only 2 original tubes are the RH seat & chainstays.)
If you go by the bicycle blue book as a guide to value, a 4 year old frame is worth 25% of rrp if it is in excellent condition.
You will have to let me know where they suggest selling to get 75% of RRP after 4 years.
As for being the value of the steel, how much is the steel value in a bicycle frame and who would buy it for steel?
tj - I've got bikes that old. I probably wouldn't buy a bike that old though. I tend to keep cars a long time too but I wouldn't buy a car as old as I keep the cars I already own.
Esselgruntfuttock - that's some dedication. Would you actually buy that bike if someone offered it to you?
The ti bike would have been ten years old when bought - the tandem 5 at least. I would perfectly happily buy an older frame
You will have to let me know where they suggest selling to get 75% of RRP after 4 years.
I can't because they don't. If you go to bicycle blue book you will find they suggest approx 25% of rrp as a fair value of a four year old bike. Did you misread the 2 for a 7?
Metal recyclers buy steel by the kilo. The Price you would get depends on the market price and the weight plus how good a negotiator you are.
Tj - do you look for a harder bargain on older frames or is the age unimportant to you?
If you're talking monetary value of MTBs I would say if it is 26" wheeled with 1 1/8" straight steerer then it will have pretty much lost its value. If you're talking in terms of usability, if it's still fun to ride then it has great value whatever its age 😉
I don't care. If it does what I want then its fine for me
Psling - that's basically the root of my question. I keep and spend money on bikes and cars I own that are old because I like them. I wouldn't pay more than a fiver to buy any of them today. I was wondering where the crossover point was for others. Like would you pay £100 for a 4 year old bfe if it was 27.5 but qr or would it be £50 because it is qr no matter the age.
Esselgruntfuttock – that’s some dedication. Would you actually buy that bike if someone offered it to you?
Probably not.
As it stands It'll be worth what, £150-£200? but to rebuild it with equivalent parts would be quite easily £1500-£1750, probably a fair bit more.
It's got a fair bit of sentimental value in it plus it fits me perfectly & is still a joy to ride. (even though I haven't a clue what the geometry is!)
My steel Kona (Tange Prestige Ultimate) is still running just fine and is probably worth more now than when I bought it in 1994 (the frame and forks might fetch £250+).
I'm currently looking at a 100 year old frame to build myself a very retro gravel bike.
It's even got "modern trail geometry". ie slack HA. 🙂
I’m currently looking at a 100 year old frame to
Dropper post? Will it take 40mm tyres? Love to see pics
I debate over shelling out a couple of hundred quid on a 5 year old frame!.
As it stands It’ll be worth what, £150-£200
Old cars - bikes same problem. They are worth a 1/4 of the money it takes to keep them in decent nick!
This look like the Manitou? fork that had the cross brace on the back. Lost count of the number of times I had people tell me I'd put my forks on backwards when I had those
I can’t because they don’t. If you go to bicycle blue book you will find they suggest approx 25% of rrp as a fair value of a four year old bike. Did you misread the 2 for a 7?
Sorry, yes I did misread if as 25% off RRP rather than 25% of RRP! In that case 25% of RRP for a 4 year old frame in excellent condition is too low. I have never got a price that low even for a frame not in excellent condition.
Really depends on make and material of frame. A Colnago, a 753 tubed etc,. will always get a good price whereas a bog standard 4130 frame probably wouldn't.
My Stumpy is 1987, nothing broken, makes a fine road, path bike. My Merlin is 1999, all good there. A couple of On Ones in the house over ten years old, all good there. My Rouke 531 1978, seems fine, maybe not as comfortable but: I’m getting old? Spoilt by other bikes? Things have changed? A frame builder told me years ago that it would harden over this much time and not have the same flex... can I tell... other factors poss more significant. I can’t use drops any more (or flats on Mtbs.
Very few frames are going to be excellent after 4 years.
A steel frame with no structural damage can be and a respray can still be worth it. I have steel framed bikes between 6 and 8 years old, every bit as relevant and enjoyable as they were when new and no plans to move them on for a while either.
A frame builder told me years ago that it would harden over this much time and not have the same flex…
That's a good one. Like the frame builder who insisted 853 is stiffer than crmo, or the story of road pros saying their frames softened over the season 🙂
Sorry, yes I did misread if as 25% off RRP rather than 25% of RRP! In that case 25% of RRP for a 4 year old frame in excellent condition is too low. I have never got a price that low even for a frame not in excellent condition.
It’s possible. Changing standards can wreak havoc on SH frame prices. All things being equal, something like a Cotic frame or better might bottom out at around half RRP, but it’s pretty common to see 26er Souls only selling when priced around £125-150 which is about the 25% of (current) RRP the question started with.
jameso
A steel frame with no structural damage can be and a respray can still be worth it.
Agree. If a steel frame is properly built and no lighter than it should be (or heavier than it need be), then it has an extremely long life ahead of it barring accident or abuse.
I ride a 70+ year old Rudge that sees a lot on gravel riding, including part of the HT550 route, and I wouldn't be doing that if I wasn't fully confident that the frame was up to it.
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(I also have a 85 year old Sunbeam that I have given rougher usage to.)
You can get a functional repair locally for a steel frame - it may not be pretty but it will keep the bike going.
As vincienup says above, the biggest problem with trying to re-use old bike frames these days isn't the material though, it's the changing "standards".
It often crosses my mind when iam out on my 08/09 trek remedy if and when it cracks what the physical damage to myself will be. My other two bikes are older still a ltd edition yeti 4x from 04/5 and pdc 825 from 2005 , those two are pretty overbuilt tho so hopefully won’t fail. Tempted to take the pdc to Finale this year
26 ain’t dead, cause iam skint
steel frames last an age, esp if waxoiled from new. I am confident riding a 92 marin that has some internal rust before I oiled it and a 1999 steel sunn that has been oiled from new, and has no internal rust at all. Both bikes are not light racebikes though. I think that makes a big difference to frames for both alloy and steel. My Marin though is overbuilt. The biggest problem running old frames are straight steerer forks and spare bushes being around.Or you can just go rigid.
A steel frame with no structural damage can be and a respray can still be worth it.
Excellent, in BBB parlance, means essentially like new. Including no marks/chips etc in the paint. Pretty rare! Might still be in normal people's excellent condition.
I looked at a few-years-old frame for sale - the seller was upfront about it needing a full respray. It was from a smaller maker who offers a factory respray. The frames was offered at just over £200, the respray £200. New ones with full warranty were on offer at just over 500.
If I already owned the frame and could basically bring it back to as new for 200. - bargain. But essentially to buy the frame and do the same you'd need to pay about £75 for it
Sorry, yes I did misread if as 25% off RRP rather than 25% of RRP! In that case 25% of RRP for a 4 year old frame in excellent condition is too low. I have never got a price that low even for a frame not in excellent condition.
You have no idea how long I spent looking at my post to make sure I'd written it as I intended to - including making sure I didn't put "off" instead of "of"!
The interesting thing is lots of people on here and other forums seem generally in agreement with BBB that bikes, like cars, basically lose 1/2 their value as soon as you leave the shop. Plus/minus. People do seem to diverge wildly with slightly older bikes.
As above, buying an old bike is often not economical at more than that because the parts will need refurbing/replacing but they rarely seem to go for a price that reflects that.
I think older steel frames hold their value better. Also frames with something a little different. E.g horizontal dropouts or sliding dropouts means you can build up a good as / fixed commuter etc. Or if geared a good touring mtb etc or utility bike.
I’d agree with that. Look at horizontal dropout Inbreds for example. Still sell for sane money even though 26”. At the same time, a normal vertical drop ‘geared’ Inbred is probably something you’d end up giving away.
Older Alu and Carbon frames tend to drop price like stones as riders bikes simply because you don’t know the history/how well crashed they’ve been and how likely they are to crack under normal use, where steel is easily repaired and probably most could make a reasonable assessment of a steel frame’s condition without specific training. Obvs, an NDT technician or whatever is going to have a huge edge, but it’s pretty difficult to be disastrously wrong about a steel frame’s condition I think.
@thebrick - steel does hold it's value well, particularly in the UK and Japan where it is apparently more popular than e.g the US. Partly I suspect as Vincienup says, alu and carbon definitely have a limited lifespan and you don't know where a used frame is in that span.
You make a good point about unique features too.
This is an interesting thread, I have been thinking similar since someone offered to swap me a 2010 Remedy for my 2 year old hard tail. Looking on pinkbike the value is probably about their, but realistically, how knackered will a nearly 10 year old full sus bike be?
I'm tempted to go and have a look at it, I couldn't ever afford a new Remedy, and the geometry looks spot on for me.
how knackered will a nearly 10 year old full sus bike be?
That's where I get stuck. Acquiring a new to me but used bike is different than keeping an old bike you own - you've already taken the depreciation hit and it is only costing you maintenance. Otoh it is a way to have bikes that you wouldn't/couldn't pay new prices for.
I would say if it is 26″ wheeled with 1 1/8″ straight steerer then it will have pretty much lost its value
There are still forks out there albeit the best ones are like unicorn crap. Still searching for some 44 or 55 RC3ti's. Still plenty of new straight steerer Sektors though, convinced they are just rebadged old 26" models.
Like would you pay £100 for a 4 year old bfe if it was 27.5 but qr or would it be £50 because it is qr no matter the age.
That would be daft, the whole QR vs thru axle argument is a load of nonsense for the vast majority of trail mincers out there, myself included. Managed plenty of tracks with a QR on both ends and never noticed any different with 20mm. 2mm of difference on a back axle is the sum total of naff all.
That would be daft, the whole QR vs thru axle argument is...
You'll get no argument from me on that front, although like coke vs pepsi, I suspect you'll find people who take a strongly held different view.
I know people have sold an older version of a bike with e.g qr to about the newer version with TA. I suspect we might get to a point where qr mountain bikes start carrying a discount, when and if TA gets adopted as the de facto standard. Judging by the number of bikes that now come with TA, I suspect it may not be all that far away.
You’ll get no argument from me on that front, although like coke vs pepsi, I suspect you’ll find people who take a strongly held different view.
I can't see why there would ever be an argument here. TA is superior from QR in pretty much every way - it's stiffer, stronger and aligns wheels better. For disc brakes it doesn't have the problems of braking misalignment caused by the torque on the rotor twisting the wheel in the dropouts. Perhaps the only feasible positive argument for QR that I can think of is that it's marginally quicker to get a wheel off and back on (e.g. for a wheel swap on a road bike), but when you allow for alignment problems, I would say that the difference is very marginal.
Of course, whether or not you choose to upgrade a bike on the back of this is up to you, but in the end, it was steerer size and fork availability that caused me to shift on my older frames and I suspect this would be the big limiting factor here.
I know people have sold an older version of a bike with e.g qr to about the newer version with TA. I suspect we might get to a point where qr mountain bikes start carrying a discount, when and if TA gets adopted as the de facto standard. Judging by the number of bikes that now come with TA, I suspect it may not be all that far away.
For "proper" MTB bikes, TA has been common for many years now, and pretty much all you'll find in the £1000+ area. In fact, I reckon you'd struggle to find one without TA in a bike shop these days, so I reckon this day is here now. Personally, I've not owned a QR MTB since back when I had an RC405 some 10 years ago and that was a second hand bike and pretty old had even then!
Road bikes with rim brakes are still commonly using QRs mostly because things develop more slowly in the road world, but with the current push for disk brakes on road / gravel bikes, TA configurations are becoming more common. Only one of my road bikes now has traditional QR skewers.
TA is superior from QR in pretty much every way –
As I said...divided opinions. I would guess the Pepsi half would respond that it has been good enough for many years...
so I reckon this day is here now.
Partly why I started this thread. I have to say, what you say about new bikes is difficult to refute. It doesn't seem to have changed the used market values much. The older cotics various, the non Longshot qr versions, haven't seen the second hand prices plummet. In fact I just recently noticed a qr version Soul I think it was, listed at the same price as a TA version from the same year.
I also haven't noticed or wheels or hubs (new) selling at discounts compared to the TA versions
Just bought an aluminium folding bike that’s 20 years old. It’s in fabulous condition and I paid 10% of the new price. Compare that to a 10 year old Brompton that will still be 50% of new. Mine better too!
My son’s first FS was a Marin that was older than him and bought for £125. Updated a few parts mainly for looks, added Disk front wheel and it was a joy to ride. On the trail he never ceased to draw compliments from other riders who’d had one back in the day.
Old bikes last years, steel effectively indefinite.
buying s/h I would buy from someone with known provenance. I have 2 s/h bikes, one steel Kilaeua '95 I think and would trust the previous owner to have looked after it (probably more than me). And an old alloy road bike, again decent owner reputation (though he'd got it s/h in turn).
I'm not sure I'd just head out and get any old s/h bike.
Have two modern ish steel bikes (gravel and MTB) and an old ('98) alloy MTB race hardtail. It still seems to be in decent nick though how long it will last is anyone's guess, and value now much be negligible in extreme.
For disc brakes it doesn’t have the problems of braking misalignment caused by the torque on the rotor twisting the wheel in the dropouts.
I think that's been an issue once for me, resolved by tightening the skewer (horizontal dropout). I only use Shimano's with internal cams and never had any issues that you describe with 180mm rear brakes. Of course, anecdote being the plural of data... (wait, that's not right)
It's like the whole issue of Boost. I'm pretty sure it would have been easy enough to adopt 150mm DH on the back for the sake of 3mm but no, another standard change for changes sake. Luckily 26" and 135mm is common enough that it's never going to be an issue but it's enough of an upgrade barrier for me to say sod it and just continue with "obsolete" bikes.
I think that’s been an issue once for me, resolved by tightening the skewer (horizontal dropout). I only use Shimano’s with internal cams and never had any issues that you describe with 180mm rear brakes. Of course, anecdote being the plural of data… (wait, that’s not right)
Being honest, it's not a problem I've ever had with MTBs as they've all had decent cups for the skewer-ends to sit in so are well secured. I've had some experience of it happening with the early disk-equipped CX bikes that had QR front-ends, but no recesses on the carbon forks, so the skewers could move around no matter how tight you did them. A friend solved his by swapping normal cam skewers for DT Swiss "screw up" ones, and then tightening them up to 11, but it's hardly an elegant solution. He's just replaced that bike and the new one has, unsurprisingly, 12mm bolt-through axles at the front and everything stays put quite nicely 🙂
My 3 hardtails are all 90's models designed for Canti brakes, 100/135 QR hubs, triple chainsets, 26" wheels, threaded BBs and straight 1 1/8" steerers. The only mods any of them has had is disc tabs being welded on to the Ti one and a longer travel disc fork added.
Old gear works just fine for recreational riders and many parts are still available if you don't need high end bling. I'll baulk when something unreplaceable breaks and I'm forced to 'upgrade' to something 'current'. I suspect the longevity of 90s bikes specifications won't be repeated and whatever's 'current' now won't remain that way for very long.
As for longevity. The steel and Ti frames are bombproof, the aluminium one is 22 years old and downgraded to a commuter.