Got an M10 Occam, which is great downhill, but sluggish along and up. Also have an Anthem29 which is a rocket along and up, but horrible on tech down (hence buying the Occam)
Would like to get a bit of the Anthem zippiness on the Occam for longer XC rides and am presuming that the key thing holding it back is the tyres (or maybe the fact that it's not tubeless yet, does that make it roll better?)
The Maxxis Ikons on the Anthem are phenomenally fast, but also phenomenally shit in the mud, so I was thinking that I get Ikon 2.6 for the back and a Rekon 2.6 for the front.
Clearly I can't be arsed swapping tyres about, so would need new wheels too. The current Occam wheels are DT Swiss XM-1650 Spline 30c TLR CL, Star Ratchet, Boost
Which apparently are out of date, so can't find much info on them.
The question is, how much would I need to spend and what wheelset is going to be lighter than my current ones, whilst still giving big volume on the 2.6" tyres I want to buy?
Perhaps something slightly more XC, if that exists ins 30mm rim...
As you can tell, I don't have a clue what I'm talking about.
Tell me.
I’m guessing those wheels are not bad, so weigh them first.
Might be better sticking fast tyres on them, and buying some superstars for down hill duty with some big ass tyres.
Normally some crazy deals at SS this time of year, but not seen anything yet. I’ve had 2 sets of STANS rim on their hubs for less than £200 each. Crest for CC, burly ones for BPW.
( Current tyres are Minions)
Pretty sure the wheels are custom for orbea hence there being no info on them. They'll be significantly lighter than the m1900 that come on the M30. Get rid of your tubes first. That's 300g saved. I'd forget about 2.6 if you want zippy. They'll be more draggy if anything. The rekon is not a massively heavy tyre but is obviously awful in winter conditions. I fitted a forekaster for mud traction. I also fitted an xtr cassette which saved approx 200g over the slx.
the XM-1650 wheel set are XM 481 rims with 350 hubs I think. The cost to make a lighter wheelset is going to be a lot. personally find a decent set of tyres suitable for the conditions and swap when the conditions change or just keep the same tyres.
As poah says those are good DT swiss wheels and to get lighter you will need to spend serious cash. Get set up tubeless and personally, I would stick with the minions over winter - they are heavy but they have traction and decent puncture protection. Going up to 2.6 just increases drag and weight and I don't really see the benefit on a decent FS rig. For winter use Ikon/Recon is a waste of time.
( Current tyres are Minions)
If yellow Minions change for the black ones as the latter are better on wheels!
(IGMC)
If you want to go fast and you’re going to put an ikon on the back, don’t, put an aspen on instead. I haven’t actually tried the new 2.4WT yet but it’s sitting in the shed waiting for next summer. 2.6 rekon and 2.25 aspen was a fantastic combination this summer. I tend to take the view that if it’s dry enough to want a summer tyre, it’s dry enough for a very summery tyre. And if it’s good enough for Nino.....
The cost to make a lighter wheelset is going to be a lot.
to get lighter you will need to spend serious cash.
Ball park figure, I have no idea. Are we talking £200 £400, £600 or £800?
change for the black ones as the latter are better on wheels!
I'm struggling with this one. 😁Help.
Hmm XTR cassette...
Carbon rims will do the job, but it’s a minefield of choices. My occam is good ip hill I think, though not ridden an xc bike.
Can you swap the wheels between the two bikes to find out if they make the difference you want?
I was thinking exactly that chiefgurugroovething
But no.
One is 12 speed boost the other is 11 speed and probably not.
Shame really
Put the ikons on the Occam, tubeless and try it out on a dryish day. If that gives the feel you want, you know that wheel changes can do it and it’s not just the bike.
Once you know that, some fastish tyres setup tubeless. There is way more weight to be saved in tyres on those wheels than in the wheels themselves. But that said, weigh the wheels when they’re bare whilst you’re swapping tyres, it’ll let you know for sure.
First job, weigh the wheels.
Not with tyres/tubes/cassette/rotors etc, but bare wheels. Then when you're looking at others you've a starting point.
Whatever tyres you buy, go tubeless if not already tubeless.
Tried 2.6 tyres on the hard tail at the start of lockdown, was alright, but draggier and felt like no huge improvement in comfort over the 2.4s I had on there.
Ditching the tubes will speed the bike up, rotational weight and the tyre will be more compliant. Rekon front and back this time of year, ikon is more of a summmer tyre, ardent race is another good option.
That’s annoying!
Tubeless rolls better for sure. Also I’m not a fan of big big volume tyres: 2.4-2.5” up front and 2.3-2.4” rear feels better in the turns to me, as well as rolling faster. Ideally harder rear compound (Maxxis Dual) or softer front (MaxTerra 3C). I’d go tubeless and try a faster rear.
Minions are quite quick for a trail tyre. Maybe dhf front and aggressor rear if you want some more easy rolling speed. But really anything like an xc tyre on a beefy trail bike is asking for trouble I think.
I would just accept it will climb slower than your xc bike and cruise up and give it the beans down.
Why is the Anthem the wrong bike for XC rides?
I have an Occam and an xc-style bike, and ride the XC bike for XC rides. The Occam rolls along pretty nicely, and I use the lockouts on xc bits in between the stuff it was designed for.
An M10 Occam will be pretty light (for that style of bike) in the first place, so beyond making it tubeless, not sure what you can do that won't make it rubbish for non-XC riding or cost enough to mean you should have bought a different bike in the first place.
The XM1650s are a good wheelset, as others say they're bespoke wheels for manufacturers, but similar to the XM1700s, you will not get much lighter to be fair, other than moving to carbon, everything else aluminium will reduce to 25mm internal once you dip below the XM rims.
Tyre wise, this time of year seems a weird choice for Rekons or Ikons, both i see as being slower for winter, yes they are light but the amount of spin, slide and speed reduction due to mud makes them less efficient, unless you are riding pretty well packed down routes.
Only advice would be to go tubeless, wheel wise you're talking a fortune to get lighter, tyre wise you will be adding weight to get a good winter set of tyres.
I would just suck it up for a few weeks.
Then when the weather improves get some light fast rolling summer tyres set up tubeless. Rekon race, Ardent Race. Ikons are great Aspens possibly the lightest i would go.
Stans is no longer king of sealants, others are better now.
With that wheelset saving 600gm by ditching the tubes and changing the tyre's will be a big difference
Add in a kilo less clothing
Dry faster rolling tracks
Make those trails come alive
Right, few things:
Why is the Anthem the wrong bike for XC rides?
Head angle and lack of dropper makes it too twitchy and scary on stuff like Cavedale after a long ride ( or indeed at the start)
not a fan of big big volume tyres: 2.4-2.5” up front and 2.3-2.4” rear feels better in the turns to me, as well as rolling faster.
Makes sense, but the last thing I want to do is dropp the BB any lower. (Pedal strikes). Also, like big tyres at present. Though I agree that big tyres of a type will be more draggy than little tyres of a type... I'm sure 2.6 Ikons will be less draggy than 2.4 minions)
And as people above have said, the Ikons will indeed be pretty much useless in the current conditions. Was thinking ahead to drier times.
An M10 Occam will be pretty light (for that style of bike) in the first place, so beyond making it tubeless, not sure what you can do that won’t make it rubbish for non-XC riding or cost enough to mean you should have bought a different bike in the first place.
Yep. You're right.
And to try to clarify an ambiguity on my OP, I was thinking of getting another set of wheels which weren't any slower/ heavier than my 1650s, specifically to stick some light tyres on for XC duty. They don't need to be better than the current ones, they just need to not be worse. Then I can quickly swap wheels depending on conditions.
God I feel like such a **** writing all this. Definitely supports my previous hypotheses that the less riding you do the more time you spend worrying about how your kit isn't good enough. Then when you actually get off your arse and ride you generally realise that it's ok after all.
To summarise, there is a high chance that I bought the wrong bike. And further to that the perfect bike for me probably doesn't exist. I want something that does descents like my Enduro an flats like my Anthem.
Ie something I can do the Lord of the Loops Peak ride on comfortably but clean Cavedale rather than doing the walk of shame on it.
And further to that the perfect bike for me probably doesn’t exist
Orbea oiz TR with 120 suspension?
If you've got an XL orbea occam let me know 😉
Head angle and lack of dropper makes it too twitchy and scary on stuff like Cavedale after a long ride ( or indeed at the start)
I'd agree with that, but heading down Cavedale on XC tyres would have my arse twitching more. Tubeless is a good plan though.
Lord of the Loops is a big day ride with a few tricky tech sections. Take the Anthem, enjoy the ride, walk it downhill for a few hundred yards. Why can't you fit a dropper on it, or drop the saddle manually at the top of CD?
It's a mental adjustment. Once you realise that no-one apart from you gives a shit whether you have to put a foot down on Cavedale, it's not a walk of shame any more. It's just 10 minutes out of a good ride.
It's possible there's an 'in between' bike which does it all, but normally there are trade-offs.
Orbea oiz TR with 120 suspension?
Is my other bike. Won't solve the head angle/sketchy problem, particularly with XC tyres on it.
Try putting a bigger, grippier tyre on the front of the Anthem, along with a dropper post. Converting to tubeless is an obvious thing to do.
It's not wheels you need, it's a motor. Buy an Ebike and you'll be able to fly up those hills faster than the Anthem and still manage those descents.
Yellow minions get very excited in the presence of banana!
Epic evo or transition spur might fit the bill.
Cost for an aluminium equivalent probably £5-600, or try the DT swiss 1700 which is slightly heavier but you should get for less. XM1501 is now carbon so I dare not look at the price or the XMC1200 but I would bet on £800-900!
I would second sticking more grip on the Antem up front and a dropper - the PNW ones are great value and the Loamlever is excellent.
Why consider spending at first rather than tweak what you have.
Definitely go tubeless. No question.
After that possibly look at lighter tyres, but I find the minions quite good on my oiz tr and I definitely appreciate the grip.
Oh god what have I done. I feel physically sick. Just splurged on a lot of stuff. Oh cripes.
Many thanks for the replies above. I did indeed go tubeless and it was better. I then got some 2.6 Ikon/Reckons and it was even better. But I want the ability to swap wheels easily on the day.
Eek.
I've just spent a fortune
So tell me if I've missed anything ( apart from the ability to pay the mortgage this month)
I've bought some DTSwiss wheels
I've bought some 180mm Shimano centre lock rotors
I have the spare tyres already
I have a bottle of Stan's
I have a spare Shimano cassette that I bought with the bike.
I think the wheels come with valves, tape and a microspline adapter.
Do I have all I need to have a spare set of wheels set up with lovely light fat Ikon/Reckon tyres so I can keep the original 1650s with Minions for proper rocky/ muddy rides?
Oh, PS, on a brighter note, I absolutely love the bike now. The weather got betterer since my previous posts and I've managed to get up to the Lakes much more. Done Birkside, Sticks The B Bash, 3 passes, 4 passes, Wallowbarrow, Sad Gill and loads of other rides in the last few months. Which suits the bike much more.
Which is nice. 😝
What the **** do I do if I'm out of the house when the courier turns up and asks for the VAT and duty.... The missus will not be impressed.
What wheels have you bought? If you’re originals are indeed 350s with XM481 rims then they are around 1,850g (for 650b) so a pretty light starting point
xmc1200? Yeah, you've got everything you need as above. I got some lighter wheels for my Occam and it's much livelier.
Just a +1 for those being really good wheels for a bike like that- to go lighter without spending a lot is going to mean sacrificing useful strength and basically undermining what the bike's made for.
If it were me I'd slap a rockrazor on the back. Instant major speed increase over a minion, still usefully grippy.
(it also depends a bit on exactly what Minions they are- if they're dh or doubledown then that's a lot of tyre and you might be fine on a lighter and faster rolling variant)
Are you aware of the Occam shock bolt issue? I discovered this on some other forums. Apparently it's quite common for the alloy bolt to snap! So they now sell a spare steel one. Worth buying one as a preventative measure. I think I got mine from leisure lakes.
xmc1200? Yeah, you’ve got everything you need as above. I got some lighter wheels for my Occam and it’s much livelier.
I got the [XMC] 1501S. I did actually find myself looking at the 1200s and thinking that they were only 500 Euros more expensive.... then a tiny bit if sanity prevailed. Did you get the 1200s? If so, can I inquire what the thought process/ justification went through your mind when you bought them?
This is the first time I've splashed serious gratuitous cash on bike bits and I'm having a real problem coming to terms with it. Tempted to phone up and cancel, just because it seems so wrong. But then I see the stuff that other people on the forum buy, and think why the hell not.... Someone must be buying this kit.
I'll have a search for the steel shock bolt ( though it does sound heavy)
XMC 1501 will save around 300g, and you get some posher hubs, and the same width as the 481s. Should be nice
@thegeneralist No I didn't buy the xmc1200s! I got a JRA build with Stans arch rims.
Were you aware bikewheelsdirect have the xmc1501 apparently in stock and reduced? I've also been browsing posh wheels... Do they still work out cheaper from abroad?
Hmmm.
1165 Euros + Import Duty + VAT, so almost exactly the same....
But with the risk/opportunity that I might have to pay more handling fees etc, or may get away with no taxes at all if I'm really lucky.
Hmmmm
I had a Minion DHF on the front and an Ardent on the back for a couple of years. Felt fine. Then tried a Minion DHR on the back which felt like riding with the brakes on.
Why not try a narrower faster rolling rear tyre? Will be fine going downhill too.
Sounds like you have everything you need - but my trail bike has a 2.5” DHF on the front and 2.6” Spec Slaughter on the rear. The rear tyre really speeded thing up via the winter DHR2 I run.
Hardtail has 2.5” DHF front and 2.6” Forekaster rear. I think it’s a bit slower than the Slaughter but the Forekaster stays on all year round whereas I’ll be changing the Slaughter out when the slop comes back.
Hmmmm, bit concerned....
As per previous page, I splashed out and bought some new wheels to use with the lightweigh tyres, and keep the other set with the Minnions.
The good news is that I've weighed all the new bits in a completely anal way and put them all together.
The bad news is that the brake disks rub and the indexing is out when I swap wheels. Really worried that I've wasted my money...
Adjusting the brakes each time I swap wheels would be just about tolerable but redoing the indexing whenever I want to swap would be a nightmare. Would be just as quick to swap the tyres over.
Is it expected to be able to swap wheels across with zero faff, or have I ****ed up and omitted a critical part of my plan?
Original wheelset is DT 1650 wheels with 12 speed Shimano SLX cassette (perhaps 500km max on it)
New set is DT XMC 1501 with 12 speed Shimano cassette ( brand new)
Both have identical Shimano rotors.
Tell me
Variances in hub widths. Doesn't need much to require a wee bit of faff. It should still be quicker and easier to re-align calipers and rear mech than to change tyres (assuming you're running them tubeless of course)
The bad news is that the brake disks rub and the indexing is out when I swap wheels. Really worried that I’ve wasted my money…
You have 😉 No seriously, as above Minion DHF front and Rekon+ rear is an ace combination for all round use with decent rolling resistance. The rear tyre always makes the most difference. If you want faster, there's a Rock Razor 2.6 which would be proper quick and, especially with the extra volume, grippier than you expect - I think.
If the indexing is minor, it's not that bad, you just get used to the number of turns on the adjuster. Limit screws however are a whole different level of pain in the backside.
Good luck 🙂
Further googling suggests that shims are available to sort out the brake issue, which is nice.
I guess something similar might be possible for the cassette too.
Get AXS gears? Lol!
The steel bolt only affects the alu version I think.
