[Closed] How much Astroturfing is there on this forum?

I don't think there are many people doing it covertly on STW, Brant, Si, Cy are all fairly well know, and idiots like kasea, Fruit/Tango/Neil get ousted fairly quickly.

Superstar. The guy did it all the time. I'd be amazed if he hasn't stopped.

idiots like kasea

Bit harsh that TINAS. He may have got off on the wrong foot, but he seems a decent enough chap now.

first impressions last geoff. I cant get past all that bearing bollock he started off with.

Seems to me that Astroturfing is as bad as fraud. Hard balance between accountability and freedom.

Kaesae's self promotion threads are pure comedy IMO, and he seems a decent bloke.

Superfruit took it way too far though.

What's wrong with good old fashioned shilling eh?

Just because some bright spark has thought up a new word.

Aye Kaesae seems to have taken on board the feedback. Fruit on the other hand....

he ended up pushing me onto www.discobrakes.com

i went to disco brakes too, then found their packaging was a total nightmare to get into, so went back to superfruits things.

this has no relevance to the thread, other than the disco packaging making me very angry.

Using one account to promote your goods covertly isn't astroturfting. Not as I understand it, anyway.

I think it happens a fair bit on here,
usual suspects and usually starts as (what bike should I buy) and
(what bike has similar geo ao head angle) etc
maybe we should have an AstroTurf button which could remove traders

I think it happens a fair bit on here,
usual suspects and usually starts as (what bike should I buy) and

can you give examples?

I think you'll find most people on here who sell stuff are open enough to say who they are and what they are doing and that goes a long way.
I had never heard of SpokeShirts until I read a thread a while back, guy was honest, offering discount and that is good.

I guess it becomes an issue when someone says Oh yes I bought a fork or disc pads or jacket etc. from a shop or a particular brand and ravs on about it when they actually work for the shop or brand.

Mind you, seeing how quickly some stolen bikes can be found on here I am sure the detectives of STW would soon work it out!!

Before you get the examples Brant - as you are here and assuming this isn't a subtle astroturf 😉 .......

Any news on the ti fat, or any other fatbike ideas in the offing?

cynic-al - Member
Kaesae's self promotion threads are pure comedy IMO, and he seems a decent bloke.

Superfruit took it way too far though.

+1. I like Kaesae, he seems a pretty decent bloke behind his "Bearing Mission", but then he has worked hard to win people over.

I do find some of the incessant marketing a bit tedious sometimes (cough, Chumba, cough), but dont mind the likes of Sam and Cy, who dont post about their products often, but when do its usually informative.

Oh and Brant doesn't "Astroturf", he doesn't need to as he has a legion of Fanbois to do that 😆

Before you get the examples Brant - as you are here and assuming this isn't a subtle astroturf.......

Brant posting here as Brant doesn't give an impression of grassroot support. It's not astroturfing.

If someone from Bike Company A had several accounts here which they used to praise their products, that'd be astroturfing.

Will look some up brant
hopefully before the Mods remove them, ( wouldn't want it messing with the stw advertising budget and feebee's) 😉

I don't think any of the people mentioned (bar fruit/superstar) astroturf - they're completely up front about who they are and who they represent.

There used to be a Dave Hinde apologist on here (when people still bought stuff from them and ran foul of their customer service).

I guess it's difficult to say how much goes on but I tend to recognise when certain individuals plug a product at every opportunity and seem more than normally keen on it (foxyrider and Kinesis aside - he's just obsessed, not paid).

I wouldn't have said Brant astroturfs at all. We know who he is so it's not like anyone is being conned. I think it would be difficult to pull off on here as everyone knows someone on here, so identities are usually verifiable.

Its more [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_%28Internet%29 ]sockpuppeting[/url] than astroturfing.

The Dave Hinde apologist...would be me.I bought a lot of stuff from them and always got it on time,All I did was give balance when people were ranting about them.However I have since experienced their more "typical" service since then 😥

Think you'd have to be mad to try that here - it would only ever end badly - (the fruit/kaesae scenario).

I like having the industry types posting on here - wouldn't want them scared off. They should post up more discounts though...

thebunk

p.s. Buy Cotic! 😀

That's quite sad duckman!

Who comes up with all this terminology? Astroturfing, please. The one at the moment that really makes my blood boil is 'dogfooding' - where corporations are testing their products internally. That's just 'internal testing'! The other thing about dogfooding is that everywhere I've seen it mentioned they've had to put an explanation next to it because the word gives you no clue as to its meaning. Same goes for Astroturfing.

duckman - I don't think it was you - it was years ago they only ever posted on Dave Hinde threads and knew 'the other side' of the specific issue but always denied they were employed by DH.

The progressive cycles ones used to be incessant and really really irritating.

It's called Astroturfing because it refers to false 'grass-roots' support. I only know that because I just wikied it.

Meatpuppetry is my favourite.

Meatpuppetry is murder...and the same as sockpuppetry.Theres a sentence I never thought I'd type.

You can't say Si is guilty of it as he is open about the bikes he sells and at that quilty at those prices why wouldn't he be and who could resist them? 😉

Ah well it wasn't me then,although I think it was on the old forum.

I think the likes of Brant, Cy and Sam are well known enough on here and of course have links to their websites clicking on their usernames. What would be nice is if everyone industry-related used their company name somewhere in their username so the uninitiated know.

A good example would be that richiethesilverfish pops up on threads associated with silverfish products, but its nice and obvious who he works for and what he's doing here. (he would seem to use the forum for 'normal' as opposd to business stuff too btw) He never seems to on the ones that moan about them though, that's probably very wise! 😆

I really like astroturfing as a term. At least it makes sense.

I think it is a bit unfair to astroturf - when ever I have played football on an astroturf pitch, say at "Goals" it hasn't tried to pretend it is real grass.

Hey Julian - I tend to avoid the complainy threads cause generally it's someone wanting to rant and get stuff off their chest.
If they have a genuine problem then I normally pop on and advise them to just mail me directly.

I'd like to think that what I do is helpful rather than astroturfing but some may say otherwise, anyway, I'd love to stay and chat but I've got to put on my amazing Race Face Aquanot jacket, fit my super grippy Intense Tyres, lube my chain up with some incredible Rock n Roll lube and go out riding on my magnificent Turner 🙂

bearing bollock

Who sells them? 😯

Its a risk though I guess, for the "astroturfer".
If their product is good then its reputation will carry it. If their product proves crap then this "astroturfing" could be some pretty bad publicity.
Its sometimes good to hear the views of folk like Brant & Cy etc. Having owned products from both I'd say they have a good idea what works in relation to their respective products.

Richie: you're right to avoid complainy threads IMO, folk will always come out of the woodwork to moan and people without an axe to grind are far more likely to be out having a ride. So even if you are not Dave Hinde, the complainers will always outnumber you and harness the unstoppable power of Keyboard Rage .

When I said 'good example', I meant of you being transparent and not astroturfing at all. Apart from that last post. 😆
If you have a look at the MTBR guidelines for industry/shop folk on there, the likes of spokescycles, thebikechain and yourself are pretty much bang on what they would like in terms of what your profile and posts 'look like' and reply to. Is it Dave Turner who is always popping up on there to answer queries about his bikes?

The rules are pretty clear for Trade.. Trade users cannot START threads about their business but they can respond to threads where it is appropriate ie. when a genuine user has asked a question that they could answer.

Brant doesn't Astroturf. Brant uses the search function of the forum to search for keywords that refer to his business or his name. he's got that search bookmarked and he uses it every day. We know this as his searches are the most popular forum searches in our logs.

This is an example of a business engaging very effectively with the users of this forum. It's well within the rules and having the resources of a manufacturer/distributor/designer on hand very quickly when a product of theirs is mentioned is surely a very good thing for everyone.

If we suspect anyone of 'astroturfing' (What an awful word BTW) then we would consider that as inappropriate trade use and the instigator(s) would be banned.

The balance we try and strike is one where the bike industry has an opportunity to engage with you the customers but not one where industry types get to post direct advertising on the forum.

So, one for the Mod's. Would this be considered advertising?

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-new-road-bike-lugged-steel-content

I'm always super careful about just trying to answer questions on 'What Rack?' type threads without trying to advertise. In fact a few times I have not answered some of these threads in case it looks too much like an ad.

I wouldn't worry martin - if people know who you are and what your product is they can make their own judgments about what you post.

The Kaesae Chief means well, jes just a bit of a N00b

Fruit may have had a few hiccups in getting off the ground, sourcing some crap kit, but his stuff is ace now. No problems with anything here, and all my brake pads are superstar these days (and flat pedals too)

Signed Frui... cough cough... Olly.

i don't mind astroturfing; but i hope the manufacturers/suppliers don't take up tea-bagging to get their message across

So, one for the Mod's. Would this be considered advertising?

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/my-new-road-bike-lugged-steel-content

Apparently so - gone now...

I just want to make clear that I've always tried to be honest and up front about who I am and what I do - no hidden personae to promote my products. If people are looking for product recommendations and I feel one of my frames could suit, I say so. I also try to help out folks when they have technical queries I'm able to provide some constructive input on. My use of this forum (and others) is not purely to promote my products.

Regarding the road bike thread. My primary motivation was that it's my new bike, I'm excited about it, I thought other people might like it so I posted it up in much the same way other folks do when they get a new bike. Of course, it's also something which will be for sale in the future, so I thought I'd also say that as people were bound to ask. Judging from the response the thread had before it was deleted a lot of people were happy to see it. I realise it was on the border of the rules, but was hoping people would take it in the right way. Apologies if any offence was caused by what some may have perceived to be overt advertising.

Sam Alison

Owner and operator of Singular Cycles Ltd.

Sam - I'm sure with some 'first pics' blurb it'll get in the 'news' section of most bike websites - lovely lookign bike 🙂

I saw it as you did - 'bloke excited by new bike' rather than 'buy this'.

keep posting 🙂

I like to think I'm upfront about who and what i do, though i do appreciate i can get on some peoples nerves (you know who you are) 🙂

For me, i know this place would not be as rich a place for info if it was not for people like Brant, Cy, Sam etc.

Disappointed to see Sam's thread pulled.
I assume most of us are happy to see new products shown on the forums from owners and representatives, especially when those people's presence isn't restricted to just plugging product.
To be honest, when stuff goes on the front page/news which is the alternative at the mo, there's very little info given, other than 'we've got some of these, they cost xxx'. A lot of the time there's little or no ongoing feedback given from the staff here after that point- understandable to a degree with the amount of kit that seems to turn up each Friday.
I've noticed that when Sam/Cy/Brant/Si etc start or comment on a thread on here they normally monitor it to answer questions which is a great thing, and show (at least when sober) respect for each other, and the punter.

the great part of this forum is that the producers do interact with the punters. Nobody has mentioned james from Genesis yet.
i think the the moderators have got the balance just about right; although i think sam's new bike should go back up (lovely bike but colour scheme not my preference). hyjack - did it have internal brake cable routing?

I like Sam and his bikes but the truth is that the thread did break the 'rules' even though I'm sure it wasn't intentional so it's fair it was pulled.

It's pretty simple isn't it - fair is commenting on existing threads and making clear that you've got an interest. unfair is commenting or starting threads without making that clear. Starting a new thread isn't unfair as such but I guess really should be down as a news item if it warrants it.

All IMO 😉

i prefer grass to astroturf 🙂

Mark - Resident Grumpy
The rules are pretty clear for Trade.. Trade users cannot START threads about their business

You are having a giraffe right? This goes on all the time!

I like Kaesae too

He took the time to give me some great advice on fitting and removing bearings over the phone.
He has clearly devoted a great deal of his time and energy to testing and improving bike bearings and sometimes is just very enthusiastic about sharing that knowledge. That's not a bad thing in my book.

I missed the lugged steel frame thread, I want to see it now. 🙁

Trade users cannot START threads about their business

I'm sure it will appear on Sam's flickr page before long. (access through the singular website). It did look proper retro. 😀

EDIT: [url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/singularcycles/5263015577/ ]Here it is.[/url]

I like Kaesae too

I saw the bike on FB quite a while before it appeared here so I'm sure it would have cropped up anyway under a different poster. Lovely looking bike BTW.

You are having a giraffe right? This goes on all the time!

Al, you may be on about a thread that i started? Well i had a mini ban for that as i over stepped the line, though i don't think it is as regular as you make out?

I think there is a significant difference between astroturfing and the groupthink that tends to go on here and on other niche forums. I don't think there is much guerilla marketing here as much as most of us like similar things so when someone asks 'what bike' we all end up listing out on-one/ragley/orange/cotic unprompted because most of us would quite like one/own one already.

Well, if lots of the forum are riding and recommending these so called niche brands then perhaps the manufacturers are rather more successful than we think with their covert advertising.

Question: Would it be preferred if all shop/industry folk had a reference to that in their userid?

Personally, I sort of assume that most regular posters know that I work for thebikechain in Edinburgh. Thing is, I was also a regular on STW long before working there. And, if we went down that path, should the same not be true of all users? I asked a question on here last night in reference to van insurance. I've no way of knowing whether or not some of the responses were from folk promoting their own companies.

druidh, i didn't know. i just know you been on here ages like me

farmer giles - Member

the great part of this forum is that the producers do interact with the punters. Nobody has mentioned james from Genesis yet.

Mike@Dialled Bikes, too. It's a good point though - there aren't many forums/fora where there'd be that rich a cross-section of involvement in the industry. I guess to some extent it reflects the tone of the magazine, too - rather than it trying to be an authoritative tome on what is and isn't right in the world of mountain biking, it's a bunch of 'real guys n girls' who are enthusiastic about biking and are open to discussion on such things.

As for the astroturfing, I guess we're pretty adept between us at spotting such things; on the other hand, it's always funny to see the brand fans* out in force, and then being shouted down by the anti-fans 🙂

*I reckon fanbois has too many connotations as a description for what goes on here, on the whole

I think upfront works.

But druidh, its a bike forum with a 'chat' page, not a van forum with a bike page.

But I can be julianwilson@inpatientchildandadolescentmentalhealth.nhs.uk if that helps. 🙂

If anyone wants to buy any gas, let me know 😉

Actually DJ; I could do with some if you've got any going cheap. My gas bill is ridiculous. 😯

and if anybody needs any on-site confidential shredding services then I'm your man. Ask Hora I do his workplace! 🙂