[Closed] How many of you carry a first aid kit on your rides?

I'm carrying ATLS training and sometimes a bivvi bag or silver jacket if it's wild. If there was one thing I'd like the folk I'm riding with to carry it would be some sort of trauma skills training/knowledge rather than any specific item, death is usually related to lack of airway support in the first instance, disability is related to not having your neck/spine looked after.

As regard "anti-inflammatories" above, there's nothing inflammatory about injury, they're good painkillers but some evidence suggests that they can impair healing of ligament and bone injury, the population is being conned by these pharmaceutical companies.

i'm guessing nobody else has been sensible enough to grab one of the defib machines from their local supermarket or trainstation to take riding then

I actually had a client once who expressed shock that we (the guides at The White Room) don't carry defibs. He told us that "every other guide he knows carries one".

He's a regular poster on here, so I won't name and shame! 😆

EDIT:

Oh, and yes, I carry a decent 1st-aid kit when guiding. When riding with mates, I usually throw it in the pack too. If I'm on my own, riding locally, I don't usually bother (often don't ride with a pack at all).

My guiding pack has a couple of big military/ambulance dressings, triangular bandage, steri-strips, iodine and duct tape. Some plasters too, because people ask me for them and get shocked if I don't have any!

I make this recommendation every time this thread appears - space blankets are pretty useless in typical wet/windy UK conditions. Get a classic orange survival bag, cut it open to make a sheet, then tape a space blanket to the inside. The two together work pretty well.

Oh, and as guides/outdoor 1st aiders, we're not allowed to give ANY medication at all, with 2 exceptions:

1. Epi-pen for anaphylactic shock
2. Aspirin for heart attack

I carry a small 1st aid kit that I put together myself after getting some experience of my own typical mtb type injuries.

I carry some spray plaster, zinc oxide tape, a couple of bandages, steri-strips, some gauze pads and some 10cmx10cm self adhesive wound dressings and a little bottle of wound wash.

I've targeted it specifically as a 'patch-up-an-get-on-with-the-ride' type of kit. I've no illusions that its going to save me from any number of possible accident scenarios - I've got first aider training to further help with that.

These first aid threads always deteriorate into the same arguments because some people think that a 1st aid kit is a survivalist tool kit, some think its a portable ambulance and other think that its all completely pointless. The key is in the name - FIRST aid.

Re aspirin

That's an interesting one. Asthmatics and folk who are on warfarin (excuse the spelling) can have conditions made worse by aspirin according to the first aid book I was studying last night.

Right. I'm off to add a lighter, superglue and glucose to my kit.

Cheers

Yes I carry one all the time.
Yes it assisted saving a mates life once.
Yes I carry one all the time at work, and in car, and in all rucsacs...

Re aspirin

That's an interesting one. Asthmatics and folk who are on warfarin (excuse the spelling) can have conditions made worse by aspirin according to the first aid book I was studying last night.

That is interesting Sanny, I hadn't heard that. Did my last refresher about a year ago, so I'm reasonably up to date and advice was still to give anyone you thought was having a heart attack an aspirin.

Long term aspirin can cause gastric ulcers which can bleed which is not good on warfarin, one dose of aspirin in a crisis will be a benefit outweighs risk situation, same applies with asthma, aspirin and NSAIDs (e.g. ibuprofen) make some asthmatics wheeze, certainly not all, again benefit would outweigh risk in an emergency situation.
ie. Don't worry about that too much.

I'll add to the stuff on here, combat tourniquets. Rather useful if someone ends up bleeding so profusely that it can't be controlled and they may bleed out before emergency services arive.... from say a penetrating injury or fracture.

FFS no tourniquets. YOu could cause someone to lose their limb. pressure onthe wound stops bleeding

Matt - you saved someones life by having a first aid kit?

Re aspirin
That's an interesting one. Asthmatics and folk who are on warfarin (excuse the spelling) can have conditions made worse by aspirin according to the first aid book I was studying last night.

Apparently it's only something like 10% and the other 90% of us thus get denied useful drugs.

I carry a gun.

FFS no tourniquets. YOu could cause someone to lose their limb. pressure onthe wound stops bleeding

I'd never use them really, but would pressure stop a serious arterial wound for long enough in case of a delayed ambulance? Say the Femoral?

Genuinely interested Jeremy, can you send me some links on dealing with such events.

I carry them for me really, If im riding by myself (I do tell people where I'm going). Not going to be able to apply pressure to my leg with my bone sticking out sideways.

[i]I'll add to the stuff on here, combat tourniquets. Rather useful if someone ends up bleeding so profusely that it can't be controlled and they may bleed out before emergency services arive.... from say a penetrating injury or fracture. [/i]

I would really, really not recommend tourniquets.

Just press on the bleeding and it will stop eventually.

No one, that's NO ONE, uses tourniquets in a hospital setting; we would just press on the bleeding to stop it.

Cool, the guides I'd read had said use them only as a very last resort so I only really considered them for myself.

Thanks anyway chaps.

lose a limb or bleed to death? tough call

though I understand they have had to teach jarheads not to apply a tourniquet to the neck

Oi.... TJ would you advise I chuck them then? I trust your opinion on this. I genuinely don't want to cause any more harm than good. Are they not to be used under any circumstance at all? I did have them mostly for lone riding if I was in to much pain to be able to stop the bleeding any other way, I thought they might be useful here....and as a secondary role If I was in the middle of nowhere and someone was bleeding out and the emergency services were delayed/advised their use.

Your input would be very much appreciated.

EDIT: Now you mention it I don't even like the temptation to use them being there so I'll bin them.

combat tourniquets

bwaarp

I wouldn't use them. As above its pad onwound and press. A tourniquet is for it a leg is blown off and yo need to close the femoral artery or something like I guess.

Cool thanks chaps, I've come across someone who was close to kicking it from blood loss before due to a leg injury. There seems to be a lot of ****ing annoying conflicting info on this some say you should use them in limited circumstances and other say you should not....best of all the NHS doesn't even mention what their thoughts are on their main website and makes it as hard as bloody possible to find out what the guidelines are...... it's made more confusing as the damn things are routinely issued to people liable to getting their legs blown off in Afghanistan.

I think they would have use if you wer having your leg blownoff. Not many landmines around when MTBing tho

Sure bust your femoral artery and you will bleed out quickly but the pressure on teh spot still should do the trick.

Cool, genuinely appreciated guys. As I said I once came across a group of Mtbers who were dealing with someone who had effectively snapped their tibia in half and most of the surrounding tissue. Took off a jump, lost the bike and landed leg first onto a rock garden from what I gathered.

It shook me a little.

rusty90 - Member

I'm surprised by the number of people mentioning 'strong pain relief'. I thought this was an absolute no-no when dealing with injured people ?

That's what I thought too, so I didn't take anything when I broke my hip- people in A&E said "What pain relief have you taken" "None" "Why on earth not? You look ****ed!"

In my bag is usually- cheapo survival bag, some compeed blister plasters, some eye drop things, a single wipe, some mild painkillers, a couple of rennies and some imodium, and some tramadol. That stuff's stuck into a wee plastic container which has electric tape wrapped round it.

Wait, what? [i]Blister plasters?[/i] Well- they're bloody brilliant in fact. Very very sticky, quite big, and they stay put even under chafey clothes and body armour and when sweaty. They won't save your life obviously but they can make things a bit more comfortable when you ride on post-crash (or walk)

The electric tape's dead versatile, you can bind injuries with it, immobilise or support bits, even fix bikes 😉 Way more useful than plasters.

And the paracetemol, rennies and imodium? All can knock on the head something that'd have properly ruined your ride, and way more likely to be useful than most of the other stuff!

Best to carry a full kit but the main thing you need is stuff for crazy bleeding. Probably the one kind of injury that, out in the hills, is life threatening and that you can actually do some thing about.

As in, 1st aid is prioritised in this order Breathing, bleeding, breaks, burns.

Not Breathing (CPR, but out in the hills far from help they will likely die anyway)
[b] Heavy Bleeding[/b] (bandages dressings etc YOU can save a life here)
Broken bones (not much you can do)
Severe Burns (unlikely)

Sure you can stem bleeding with a pair of filthy pants but they make stuff specially for it - its cheap, it weighs nothing and you could get 30 odd dressings in a camelbak. Probably only need 10 or 15.

When I climbed in the Alps it was always the "prepared for anything" Brits carrying massive rucksacks that ended up having epic bivis stuck on a ledge somewhere. Meanwhile the Froggy grimpeur with a croissant stuck in his pocket and a Gauloise behind his ear was sat in a Cafe drinking a beer having completed the climb by lunch-time.

Carting piles of crap around with you just leads to a false sense of security and is f'all use in a crisis anyway.

Hi guys,

I would suggest adding a tick tool ( my fave tom o twister ) to a 'med kit' - have used this far more than the proper contents of my med kit... saline washes and gloves are also useful.

2 bad times in the last 2 years have required my medkit - first was when our collie got torn open from hitting a hidden fence post in the snow - wound dressing and human and dog clothing stopped that bleeding = took me 2 hours to carry her out over my shoulders - 15 stitches by the expensive vets... made me value the free nhs i assure you...

Last time I used my med kit on a human was on the mrs who had an easy spill on gravel at mabie - she shredded her arm and elbow - deep tears which later required 4 days in A+E to clean and fix. She has arm pads now...

Having the med kit was of benefit to her - A) it hid the damage from her and I am sure stopped her going into worse shock - B) it stopped the bleeding which was significant - seeing it pour down her arm into a puddle wasnt nice. Out came the big wound dressings and bandages. 5 hrs later I ( not her! )went into shock and collapsed in the hospital..... Not a fun day. Taught me a lot.

It was comforting at the time to be able to do something and the docs were under the impression the paramedics had bandaged her up and not just me - I have doctor / paramedic friends who have taught me the basics and the respect that you need the right help and that you can only do so much with what you carry in a mtn first aid kit.

Now I was dam glad I had that kit..

I have tape / knife / bandages / large wound dressings - anti allergy tabs / ibruprofen - survival bag / whistle / saline washes / eye pad - you can improvise a lot as well with tubes / clothing. I see it as a patch you up to carry on / reassurance for casualty. I try and have a phone and other people in the group to get proper help etc !

I have hurt myself on local trails more than when exploring !

be safe

paul

Some good posts here guys. Maybe we could have this thread stickied to help lay people understand the do's and dont's of first aid!

I will be going on another first aid course again (last one was back when I was 15!)

bwaarp - its been done a few times and better advice on other threads.

Its interesting that the various healthcare professionals are unlikely to carry much. its different if you are guiding.

It would be nice to have one stickied though.

i've only used mine once, and that was on Junkyard. Not to help him in anyway, but to save his claret being spilled over the nan bield descent!

On a serious note, they weigh naff all. Stuff one in your pack and learn how to use it.

Stuff you can deal with using antiseptic wipes and plasters you can ride out with.

I have:
- gaffer tape (about 2m wrapped around pump)
- maxi pads
- tie wraps
- survival bag
- mobile phone with GPS (yes I know it won't always work in every situation but in England 9 times out of 10 it will and getting a good 6 digit grid reference in a stressful situation is useful as we/I often don't carry a map on familiar routes)
- whistle
- spare warm clothing (can double up as extra bandaging)
- storm shelter for remote rides
- scissors
- other general stuff that can be repurposed in an emergency
- most importantly, a first aid certificate

It's probably not everything I need for every eventuality but I feel a good compromise.

I was out on a peaks ride up at Hope Cross (about 2-3k of rocky bridleway from Hope village) when we came across someone who'd smashed themselves and dislocated their shoulder. It was a nice day in September, the Sun was out and although there was a coolish breeze, I was still sweating in just a t-shirt and shorts. Anyway, this lady was in a lot of pain, she couldn't move at all.

Obviously, we called the mountain rescue people, although they took a little while to get to us. Within a couple of minutes, I was cold having stopped riding, and the lady on the floor was getting colder and colder. Within a few minutes she was blue and shivering. Fortunately, there were a lot of people around who could donate clothing to her (including a hiker who happened to be carrying two sleeping bags - WTF?).

What struck me was that this was a relatively minor injury, on a nice summery day, not that far from civilisation. Despite this, there was the potential for this lady to have become more unwell in the short time it took for the paramedics to arrive.

Long story short, I reckon a survival bag / space blanket is one of the more important things you could carry. I'm also sure she was quite grateful for the strong analgesia we gave her (Caveat - she was being tended to by 5 doctors). By all means, carry bandages and dressings if you like, but they're never really going to make as much difference.

The other thing to mention about survival bags/space blankets is that they're very visible- which is very good, if you find yourself stuck and awaiting help.

I carry a first aid kit and space blanket in case I find a casualty on the trail. I also carry spare clothing and some bike spares.

Went out with the Boer War. I did a combat first-aid course back in the late 70's and tourniquets were severely frowned upon even then.

Tourniquets didn't go out with the Boer War, at least not for the emergency services.
I don't know about anywhere else but in sunny London Town, ambulance staff are trained in use of CAT tourniquets and they're standard issue kit.

As for first aid kits, I've never bothered!

Yeah we still have tourniquets in A+E, had someone brought in with one on last week as it happens. I suspect they're out of vogue for people who don't know what they're doing, in that you can probably do more harm than good unless you're well-trained. But they still certainly have a role:

Tourniquets? If someone isn't stopping bleeding it would be a stout top knotted and a thick branch.

I suspect that squaddies fell firmly into the category of people who don't know what they're doing, which is why we were warned off them. 🙂

Can I just say if any one finds me bleeding on a trail, please do not use a tourniquet unless your a qualified health professional.

I will check with the Mrs but I thought the correct way to stop a bleed was to apply pressure to the bleed, not put a tourniquet on and prevent blood supply to the rest of the limb thus causing amputation. 🙄

Squaddies do carry them, and are trained to use them, but I think they are generally trained to use them when limb has been blown off and blood is spurting out every where, then a tourniquet stops them bleeding to death, and killing the rest of the limb doesnt matter as its already blown off.

Tourniquets did not go out with the Boer War, or have I misread ^^^?

Some modern combat trousers (Blackhawk) come with in-built tourniquets.

Who do I trust more, an MD or TJ? Not a tough call.

All getting a bit hung up on the tourniquet issue, they became particularly in vogue again with the injury patterns seen from IEDs related to recent events abroad, useful if bleeding out, "hosepiping" as it is grimly referred to, but sadly it reflects the reality. A trauma Dr told me some guys apply them loosely to each limb before patrols 🙁 Unlikely injury from MTB incident!

I do have a small kit if required for some events (mountain marathons), gloves are my priority, tri bandage, a dressing, mefix tape, zinc oxide tape, liteplast pro tape, small scalpel blade, big needle/venflon, sterile swabs, single suture.

Only ever actually used the silver bivvi bag out on the hills though, gave it to a bloke with a tibial fracture while he waited for the MR team.

Nick - what MD is suggesting using them and are they trained in trauma medicine? I am not but I know enough to know that I do not have the knowledge to use a tourniquet.

What you need first and foremost in knowledge. Equipment comes a long way lower priority and there is no point carrying equipment you do not know how to use.

tourniquet trousers were developed by an MD

For a specific purpose - to be used when you get your leg blown off

Do you know how to use a tourniquet? How long to leave it on befoer releasing? Or are you prepared to sacrifice limb? To bleed out from a major arterial wound is so ridiculously unlikely

No one, that's NO ONE, uses tourniquets in a hospital setting; we would just press on the bleeding to stop it.

Currently being issued to all ambulance resources in my area, (with training to follow 🙄 ) Whether there's actually any point is a separate argument, but very much in vogue at the moment.

Tourniquets are routinely used in theatre for orthopaedic surgery as well.

I'm an a&e charge nurse, but I must admit I've never bothered carrying a first aid kit in the 20 years I've been riding, even on multi day rides out in the middle of nowhere 😳 Someone has usually had a dressing and some paracetamol!
I also must admit I tend to take a back seat if anyone has a spill, with mates I'll generally make sarc'y comments. On bigger group rides I've done, there is always someone else who wants to be the one to sort it all out and sit doing the handholding etc. Unless they were going to do something dangerous, I would happily leave them to it. I've only had one mate who had a proper smash, and obviously I sorted that to the best of my ability at the side of a muddy trail, then it was over to the air ambulance chaps.

"Tourniquets are routinely used in theatre for orthopaedic surgery as well."

Mrs FD uses them almost daily in theatre, I think the limit is about 2hrs. She did tell me about 1 opp a colleague was doing though, where they forgot to take it off until about the 4 hr mark. The person was apparently always going to loose their leg anyhow, but if it had been a healthy person it could have been a bit unfortunate.

Does appear that the medical professionals tend not to bother with kit, where as people with less skills and knowledge do.

Does appear that the medical professionals tend not to bother with kit, where as people with less skills and knowledge do.

It's an interesting one this. I've done both first-aid and outdoor leadership courses alongside medical professionals (including quite a few MDs). All of them were pretty humble about first-aid and admitted that they don't get specific training on it and don't have much of a clue.

Medical professionals don't even get exemption from the First Aid training requirements for outdoor qualifications.

I've also had to deal with a few injuries out on the hill (and on the rugby pitch back in the day) where someone in the group was a MD. IME they exhibit extreme reluctance to get involved, to the point where I don't bother asking the question any more.

Not knocking anyone here, I'm sure in a genuinely life-threatening situation, someone medically trained would do the very best they could, which would be a lot better than me or any other lay-person!

I've badly gashed my knee on two separate occasions when out riding and both times had to use my buff to stop the bleeding. I will be taking dressings out in future.

IME they exhibit extreme reluctance to get involved, to the point where I don't bother asking the question any more.

I'm well aware of the use of tourniquets in theatre, having worked in one for 10 years.

Those are big, wide, pneumatic tourniquets with inbuilt alarms to remind you that they've been on a while, and are not used to stop bleeding, but to provide a blood-free field for operating under.

Don't use tourniquets...just press on the bit that's bleeding.

"Doctors are actually advised not to stop and assist by their proffessional bodies I am led to believe."

No I beleive its the opposite, I think its in their oath that they will help where and when ever they can.

Mrs FD is a Trauma & Orthopaedic surgeon, so knows a fair bit about most injuries.

Given Steveos scenario above I think Mrs FD would not be inclined to rush forward and help, as its not a life threatening situation and in fairness more trouble than its worth getting involved, and an ambulance crew would probably do a better job than her, because its what they deal with.

She has however stopped on 2 separate occassions at RTA's one a person had been run over as Mrs FD was driving home from work, unfortunately the person died at the seen. I asked if having a first aid kit in the car would have made any difference and she said no, not at all. Even when the ambulance arrived she said nothing in the Ambulance could have kept the person going, but she did say that drugs and equipment in hospital could have kept the person going a bit longer.

The other was a person who was diabetic and hadnt taken their med's and had passed out at the wheel whilst driving. When the ambulance crew came they couldnt get a line in to him so Mrs FD did it.

More to do with liability and litigation than anything probably. Doctors are actually advised not to stop and assist by their proffessional bodies I am led to believe.

That's absolutely untrue, and the GMC would not be happy with anyone who was found to have failed to help in a potentially life threatening situation.

As for litigation we are expected to provide only that care which could be expected of us given our training and expertise and area of practice, ie a psychiatrist should be able to provide basic life support, a trauma specialist much more. There is an arguement that all Drs should have some advanced trauma training even at a basic level, most don't & would not expect to need it in their normal practice.

Yeah, as stated it's a requirement of the GMC (see 'Duties of a Doctor' - it's on their website for all to see) to assist at any time if necessary. Although there are [i]stories[/i] of people being sued for mismanaging a situation (E.g. on a plane) I understand that no one has ever successfully brought a claim to court.

I would happily say that I'm not an expert in first aid. I could probably fashion a sling but first aid simply isn't part of my job. If there are others that are trained and keen to clean up scrapes and wounds - they'll probably do a better job, plus it's also a rare treat for them to put their skills to good use, stops them forgetting etc. On the other hand, if someone was seriously unwell, bleeding profusely, head/neck injuries etc, I'd be there to help out if I could.

TJ - see my link above ( )

I believe that's taught as part of ATLS (Advanced trauma life support) - There is a role for tourniquets, but only after other methods have failed. With regards to tourniquet time, if you're using a tourniquet appropriately (E.g. arterial bleeding that you can't stop) the important thing is to get that person to a hospital ASAP. In the UK you'll almost almost always be within the 2 hours maximum recommended.

But yeah, I don't think anyone should be carrying tourniquets in their camelbak 😆

Superficial =- hence my point about not carrying kit you don't know how to use

Everyone in the medical world knows doctors can't put a bandage or a plaster on 🙂

TandemJeremy - Member
Everyone in the medical world knows doctors can't put a bandage or a plaster on.....

.....if you have a dog you don't need to learn how to bark

Badoom tish!

the world is nuanced not black and white. therefore I think it's silly to say that "all tourniquets are bad m'kay"

none of my first aid kits include a tourniquet