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Looks like Shimano are having major issues with getting their 12 speed XTR out.
Problems with cranks, dropping the Sylence hubs and a few other issues by the look of it....
[URL= https://m.pinkbike.com/news/shimanos-new-xtr-drivetrain-still-isnt-available.html ]Shimano XTR still not available [/URL]
How have they managed to get it so wrong??
Their factory burnt down.
They decided to invent it all from scratch while avoiding any of the working ideas out there?
Are the mechs and shifters okay? That's all I'm interested in from the new stuff.
Because they want to release their top rate components and make sure they are absolutely spot on. They should be commended for not dropping their high standards just to make money.
They dont have it wrong, just high standards.
Because they want to release their top rate components and make sure they are absolutely spot on. They should be commended for not dropping their high standards just to make money.
They dont have it wrong, just high standards.
If that's the case why were they hocking it around last year and letting the press get their hands on it?
Seems odd that after all that they decide they have problems.
Don't get me wrong I really like Shimano stuff - which is why I've got it on 4 of our bikes, but it just seems like an odd way of doing things.
Its not unusual to get half a Shimano groupset for a while after launch. This is worse than normal, but not exactly a total deviation from the norm. It doesnt help if they refuse to license things like freehubs widely then drop their own ones mind...
Am I right in thinking that means only DT Swiss make a compatible hub then?
Am I right in thinking that means only DT Swiss make a compatible hub then?
Most of the major hub companies have a design ready to go. It’s just waiting for the green light from shimano to be able to sell them.
The replacement rear hub mentioned in the linked article is available now.
They dont have it wrong, just high standards.
So too their one and only serious rival. They're following a poor strategy in comparison.
Maybe they will refer to this forum for advice on how not to mess up a 13billion pound company?
They strayed from 7sp - the fools!
We have indeed had to go back to the drawing board on the design of Scylence
Because they want to release their top rate components and make sure they are absolutely spot on. They should be commended for not dropping their high standards just to make money.
They don't have it wrong, just high standards.
Nothing wrong with having high standards, what is wrong, and something that is really starting to piss me off about the industry in general, is showing new kit off months before it's available. It's quite clear this wasn't (and still isn't) completely ready for production when they launched it 8 MONTHS AGO. Launching the groupset when only some of it is ready, and allowing people to mix and match even when they said it won't necessarily work well, is just taking money. Nothing else. This seemingly falls at the door of Shimano EU rather than other Shimano distributors, but even so, the fact it is allowed to happen is pretty poor. It's the same pretty much everywhere, bar a few exceptions. Amazing new kit is shown on here, Pinkbike (insert other cycling media outfit here) etc and 9 times out of 10 it'll be months before you see it in shops. The industry is slowly destroying itself and the good work of a few brands that do the decent thing and wait until new gear/bikes are actually ready is not going to slow down the process.
Rant over!
At least they didn't release fundamentally flawed products causing people to have a never ending cycle of warranty returns and replacements then release a redesign 3 years later with a +50% price increase.
Just sayin....
They've probably spent the intervening months reverse engineering SRAM's GXP bottom brackets in an attempt to work out how they have managed to make something that wears out so quickly, as they are clearly onto a consumable cash-cow with it...
The industry is slowly destroying itself
uh-huh, hyperbole much?
I've had a drivetrain sat here with no chainring for weeks....was wundering
It does make you wonder their freehubs worked for the large part for lots of us but the need to reinvent the centre of the wheels seems to be strong.
@lawman to be fair I don't think that its endemic in the industry. SRAM products are generally available (depending on your local distributor) on the day of launch, and most bike companies follow a set pattern of show, take shop orders, deliver sometime later on a mostly known timeline. If a shop/distro needs to stock it on a pre-order basis then it has to be released sometime in advance.
I think there's a tendancy for sure to just fit around shows, not real production timelines, but for most businesses thats the best & last opportunity before launch as a rule, whereas Shimano will release on a rigid annual timeline irrespective of the product availability, which is where they fall down I think.
I would much rather that they delayed releasing stuff rather than putting out stuff with issues. The press stuff I assume worked OK, it may be a durability issue or something relating to production of higher numbers. I can see it'd be frustrating if you're waiting for stuff but it's by no means a new thing - new components from shimano have often been hard to get hold of over the past 20 or so years that I've been considering such things.
From a business perspective, Shimano's USP is very much the durability and reliability of their kit. Releasing something even with a small percentage of defects will set the internet alight and lose them market share.
“So too their one and only serious rival. They’re following a poor strategy in comparison.”
Are you forgetting SRAM’s disastrous road hydro disc release? Also plenty of ongoing issues with Eagle jockey wheels and GX chains.
Are we maybe over-reacting to the delay of a chainset? Realistically, the Enduro 11 spd option was never going to have huge uptake, though it’s an interesting option, the hubs are available, and DT options are also available and have been for some time.
Bringing innovative products to mass market sometimes incurs delays. Shocking, I know.
Are you forgetting SRAM’s disastrous road hydro disc release? Also plenty of ongoing issues with Eagle jockey wheels and GX chains.
And leaking piston seals with Shimano brakes....Product development is hard. No company out there is squeaky clean but no company knowingly releases crappy products to market. Car companies are always doing recalls. You can do all the testing you want in pre-production, but you can never fully simulate the abuse the general public will put their products through.
I'm disappointed the scylence hub has been dropped, I was genuinely interested. Hopefully they'll keep working on it and bring it back.
I’m disappointed the scylence hub has been dropped, I was genuinely interested. Hopefully they’ll keep working on it and bring it back.
I thought the same 'cos I like properly quiet rear hubs and then I remember it was Shimano and would use open bearings and I was less disappointed.
Interview with the Shimano MTB Product Manager over on PinkBike as linked in the opening comment tells you what you need to know
Anyone else get a full house of bull**** bingo in that article?
Before the internet they would have released the news and it would have taken probably 2 months to reach consumers via the printed magazines. With the internet, everything is instant, for good or bad. They have to advertise it so people can get excited and want it. They have to release the info so that manufacturers can spec it ready for their new model bikes etc, etc.
Luckily, in my opinion, they found some issues after doing this and before it was released to market and they have chosen to remedy it rather than release it anyway and let the customers and distributors have the mare of broken bikes, warranty repairs and the hassle that causes along with bad press. Maybe they are learning from the issues they have had in the past and they see other manufacturers have, e.g. Sram jockey wheels etc.
I can't see why this is something to be complaining that much about, unless you really really wanted the newest bike on the market with the latest groupset regardless as to whether it was fit for purpose or not. And you would then be the first to complain it was sh!t, no doubt.
They are damned if they do and damned if they don't!
IMHO
* Currently having my commuting bike out of order for 2 weeks while awaiting a warranty replacement front caliper due to leaking Shimano piston. Not complaining about a 2 year warranty though. Should be arriving tomorrow fingers crossed
Delay stuff. Not an huge issue so.
Hope the stuff is rugged in the end.
In a quasi duopoly, competitors will massively benchmark each other so invariably standards will be very similar.
Despite the jockey wheel thing, I don't see SRAM having lower standards than Shimano, particularly in light of the mediocre current XT (clutch issues, fragile jockey wheels too, cheese cassettes, leaky early calipers, etc).
If anything I would says SRAM perhaps have slightly higher standards. But where they score is innovation although that's not difficult as Shimano seem to have stopped innovating and are 4/5 years behind the curve IME.
Those freehubs look (from a couple of pics only) like they'll have bloody tiny bearings, at least on the outboard end - yeah, the end with all the mud & water.
(or have they done something clever internally)