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Wheel reviews often comment on the number of pawls and the number of engagement points the freehub has . The thinking seems to be that more engagement points gives faster pick up . Surely if a freehub with 18 points for the pawls to engage and 3 pawls equals 54 engagement points and 6 pawls 108 then the 6 pawl freehub will be stronger and presumably more durable but given that the pawls engage at the same time how is 6 pawl hub quicker to engage than the 3 pawl ?
There's less distance between each tooth. Means less rotation before it engages.
The number of pawls is irrelevant to the engagement speed.
I get that but some wheels offer an upgrade from 3 to 6 pawls claiming faster pick up which can't make any difference to the speed of engagement .
They can be offset, so only three engage at a time
Don't some hubs with larger numbers of pawls engage at different times so it's more like 2 sets of 3?
Has anyone mentioned offsetting the pawls yet?
When people talk about the engagement points they usually mean the number of unique "clicks" rather than the number of pawl/ring interfaces (or whatever method it uses). Or put it another way it's "hub engagement" rather than "pawl engagement".
So, uh, say you had a 36T hub with 3 pawls all engaging at the same time we'd still say it's got 36 engagement points not 108. . If you doubled the pawls but still all engaged at the same time it's still 36, but every engagement point now has 6 pawls engaged. If you doubled the pawls but offset them you'd say 72 because each engagement point has the original 3 pawls.
Talking about degrees per engagement is probably less confusing tbh
Even if the pawls aren't offset, is it clearly hat they all always engage? I have heard/read that usually only one engages (can't remember where).
I think industry nine claimed that in the press release for their new ultra fast engagement hub
Surely the number of pawls is irrelevant without knowing the number of teeth with which they'll engage? Angle of engagement is a better measure.
They'll just design the engagement ring and the pawls with the required number of splines and placement of the pawls to get whatever engagement they require. As others say, they just offset/phase the pawls so they're not all engaging at the same time, but you'd definitely want more than 1 engaging, 2 would be the minimum i'd say, and that would be affected by the splne widths as well.
It's all basically physics, all companies can make them with smaller engagement angles, but then you are looking at tighter tolerances (more expensive to make), reduction in strength (reduction in spline material, pawls engaged, etc) and maybe using a different material (cost again). Would the normal rider notice the difference between 1 degree or 5 degrees, 5 deg or 10, etc, etc, maybe in a car park, but on the trail that much.
I'd also wonder what the drag characteristics would be with more splines and pawls, even without engagement it's going to do something.
On Shimano freehubs, you hear the occasional"CRACK!" After freewheeling, which a former workshop boss thought was a pawl letting go when it hadn't engaged properly, and the freehub slipped into the next one.
It makes sense to me that possibly only one pawl engages at any time, quite often.
The i9 hydra hubs have 6 pawls, ALL offset... so only one initially engages... then there's a bit of 'give' that allows another 2 or 3 to engage!
DrP
Even if the pawls aren’t offset, is it clearly hat they all always engage? I have heard/read that usually only one engages
Thats why cheap pawl hubs tend to explode.
Imagine putting all your watt's through one point, you're asking for deflection of the driver away from the axle. dividing that forces into equally spaced pawls means the force stays centered
And yes, the bontrager hub 6 pawl upgrade adds 3 additional pawls offset so each 3 engage at a time.
From what I remember of I9 hubs, each pawl also has three points at which it can engage, so it’s not always the same three pawls that engage at any given point.
Blind test time! Who would notice? Not me.
Serviced a Crossride the other day, found it only had 2 pawls. Buggered if I could tell riding it.
Reckon it just makes a nicer clicky noise with more pawls
You wouldn't notice if one pawl was gone if they act in unison but you would notice if the angle of pickup increased. Not while riding but when track standing and ratcheting up something.
My DT Swiss rear wheel came with an 18 tooth ratchet, that was noticeably slow when pedaling out of a corner, I switched to 36t and it's much better. I think faster engagement is better up to a point but then it's diminishing returns
One time in band camp... We found we were down to 1 working pawl on a Hope bulb tandem hub. I hadn't noticed until stripping it and that's with 2 bods driving. Sounds a bit like overzealous marketing to me...
I’ve been riding an Onyx Vesper rear hub recently. I’m not going back to pawls anytime soon. I have found the silent, drag free spragg clutch to be amazing, and my other wheels are I9 Hydras and Bonty 104 point engagement.
I recommend you never try fast engaging hubs because if you do, that Hope hub will feel like going back in time.
I HATE slow engagement on hubs. I loath that clang you get when rotating the pedal forward and having free rotation until it slams into place. Awful.
Chris King Ring Drive is a much better engineering solution than pawls. 72 points of engagement, no tiny little springs to break all shielded from the grit and grime. Noice.
There's 3 types of hub.
The why even bother having a ratchet at all:
DT and Shimano with their ~18t - we might engage next Tuesday, keep pedaling.
The everyone else middle ground:
Hope, Novatec, expensive DT upgrades, and anything else in the 36-52 range. Just feels about right.
And Chris King*.
Pickup so fast you have to adjust your riding arround it as you no longer get that jolt when you start pedaling.
*I am aware of other brands stealing their crown, but I've been dribbling over Chris King hubs in bike shop display cabinets for a quarter of a century. Industry nine just doesn't excite my inner 13year old that's still transfixed by unaffordable bling on past club runs.
What was the engagement like on those old shimano silent clutch hubs?
I still have a shimano silent clutch hub on a Cannondale I rebuilt. Its in the classified if anyone want to buy it for the hub. 🙂
To answer @multi21, the engagement is average but silent.
I have found the silent, drag free spragg clutch to be amazing
What was the engagement like on those old shimano silent clutch hubs?
Not bad, nothing exciting but the silence is nice. If it starts failing to engage it needs an oil flush which is pretty easy from what I've read.
TheGhost
Full Member
I’ve been riding an Onyx Vesper rear hub recently. I’m not going back to pawls anytime soon. I have found the silent, drag free spragg clutch to be amazing
I love the Vesper on my hardtail. Agree with the above that it's hard going back to clicky clangy slow pick up hubs.
Pick up is so instantaneous that I wonder if it might even be an issue with pedal kickback on a full suspension bike.
I have a Hydra on an Ibis Ripmo AF and I don't get any kick back. I think it depends on the suspension design.
Onyx hubs, lovely, but they make King and I9 look cheap with their retail price!
Haven't you heard!
Fast engagement is out of fashion now
This year its all about floating crank spiders to reduce pedal kick-back to make your suspension betterer.
If you have bought the 0.52° Hydra hubs then I am afraid you now need to buy the £300 Ochain floating spider to get your float back.
Or ditch it all and buy a 1990s Shimano hub that engages once every rotation
Blimey some People are passionate about freehubs. It's just a ratchet mechanism FFS.
I've ridden fixed, so experienced "instant engagement" from a supremely "efficient" drivetrain and I honestly don't think I could spot the difference between 2 and 10 degrees of engagement on a FH (surely gearing is a factor as well though?).
I lack the gigawatts to explode freehubs, I'm not really bothered about the sound and I'm not a big spender. basically I don't think I'm the target market for CK hubs...
Ultimately though does it really matter to 95% of people?
It possibly affects the millisecond where you go from freewheeling to pedaling, but some peoples reactions seem a little 'Princess and the pea' TBH.
@cookeaa Aye that's pretty much my view. Then I can't the the difference between tubed/tubeless, latex/butyl, ally/Ti etc etc.
I've got/tried all the above combos and once the initial 5 mins is over for me, it really is just like riding a bike... But, the industry has to run on something so why not marketing and hope (deliberate small 'h')?
boblo
Free MemberOne time in band camp… We found we were down to 1 working pawl on a Hope bulb tandem hub. I hadn’t noticed until stripping it and that’s with 2 bods driving. Sounds a bit like overzealous marketing to me…
It wouldn't make any difference to the ride as long as one remained and it was working. But, the reason it had more than one is to give it strength and reliability. Especially with Hope when it used to be the default that half the pawls weren't working.
What was the engagement like on those old shimano silent clutch hubs?
Huge engagement. Must have had thousands of hits - but then it was in the classifieds for an eternity, back when people actually used the classifieds