[Closed] How do LBS's stay in business??

how close to reading are you we fit for free and cheper

I'd point out to them that the £15 was a deal breaker

based in London... 🙂

I'd point out to them that the £15 was a deal breaker

I did... they weren't budging... to be fair, it was the shop mechanic (it was early in the am and the sales guys hadn't arrived yet), so maybe he didn't know if he could move off the 'normal' pricing structure?

Ouch. When I last bought a frame the CK headset was discounted and fitted FOC. But then the shop knows me quite well.

Not really answering the question, but it may not be the LBS's fault.

I've noticed a lot of suppliers/distributors have a variable pricing system based on the amount you order. i.e. if you are a larger shop/online retailer you get a preferential trade price for buying more.

Add to this suggestions that the larger companies deal in 'grey' imports and sell 'OE' kit and it's a wonder any small LBS stays in business. The fact that the headset is more expensive there may be because it costs them more and they need to charge that price to survive.

I often heard it said that you could become very busy if you sold things at the right price but not actually cover any of your costs (and therefore stay in business very long).

Where the LBS wins is the ability to get something done then and there as said above (although reports are that a shortage of bike mechanics is putting paid to that) and the fact you can ask questions, get advice and physically look at the products.

When I last bought a frame the CK headset was discounted and fitted FOC

well, I didn't buy the frame from there, it was a secondhand one that I'm building up. Still, I'd have been 'happy'(ish) to pay the £120 asking price, but to then be asked to pay £15 to fit it as well... it's taking the piss a little isn't it?

Also saw a lass walk in with a flat rear tyre, she asked for new tyres to suit, chap sold her 2 tyres (front & rear) and then charged £10 per end (so £20) for fitting them... lady took that without batting an eyelid 😯

I know they have to pay the bills on a bricks and mortar establishment, but... I don't know, it just seems a little outrageous?

Just wondering, do mechanics get a cut of their labour charges perhaps?

Sadly, a lot of LBS that I know have died, despite the new post-Beijing 'bike boom' 🙁

That headset only 108 quid list anyway.

Free fitting would be the norm on an item like that here.

It may be that the mechanic gets a cut of his labour charges so he would probably not be happy about fitting it for free.

In the absence of other staff (he might have been busy with another job)there to help then its not ideal.

Just been entering new CK pricing into our new web package (not live yet btw) and they do a Patriot colourway!!! You really have to be one to drop that money on one.

Do car owners have a forum where they complain about the garage daring to charge them for parts and then actually charging them to fit them as well.

Also saw a lass walk in with a flat rear tyre, she asked for new tyres to suit, chap sold her 2 tyres (front & rear) and then charged £10 per end (so £20) for fitting them... lady took that without batting an eyelid

Not fitting the headset is annoying, but the tyres example is less clear cut - the ratio of the time it'll take vs. the profit made and how likely it is she'll be back for more spendy things doesn't make it so obvious that they should do it for free IMO.

Have you tried Bromley Bikes. They import CK and fitted one FOC when I bought one a couple of years ago!

£20 to fit two tyres does sound a bit like they are taking the piss if it was only £15 to fit a headset!

Perhaps the mechanic would have got a ticking off for spending his time fitting a headset for free when he already had a workshop full of customers bikes waiting to be worked on and paid for?

£10 an end does sound pricey for fitting two new tyres, our shop would have done it for £5 per wheel, but that includes a new inner tube.

I think the headset would depend on the shop/how busy their workshop was etc. If the workshop was busy then the mechanic would have to put aside other, chargeable, jobs to fit an expensive, lightweight headset to a(presumably) expensive frame. The mechanic would have to take his time with expensive tools to make sure he didn't damage anything (even with the right tools and a bit of patience I've managed to damage a lightweight headset cup) and it would probably be more hassle than it was worth to give away £15 on a £120 quid sale.

Sounds harsh, but I've been there, and with the best will in the world its not always so easy to cut people deals just for the sake of niceness.

Plus, if you can seriously afford to buy Chris King then £15 should be pocket change for you, no? You are aware that headsets half that price do the job just as well? 😉

Do car owners have a forum where they complain about the garage daring to charge them for parts and then actually charging them to fit them as well.

I know, I know... I'm not really one to complain about this, honestly, but it just struck me as silly... charge full price for an item (actually, probably above RRP?) and then also charge a quite high fee for fitting... thereby costing the sale and losing business... seems daft

Plus, if you can seriously afford to buy Chris King then £15 should be pocket change for you, no? You are aware that headsets half that price do the job just as well?

Yep... but they're not Chris Bling and they don't come in Mango 😉 Honestly, I'm 'happy' to pay the £15 to get an expensive headset fitted to an expensive frame, no worries there (in fact, I've paid £20 in one case, that made me blink!), but not when I've just been asked to pay above RRP (?) for the unit in the first place...

If he'd said yep, it's £120 and I'll fit it later today, I'd have done the deal and been OK to pay the premium to get it done there and then, surely they'd have still made a decent profit? More so than me buying one myself for £85 (or so) and then paying £15 for them to fit it (so £100 vs £130 to me)?

Sounds harsh, but I've been there, and with the best will in the world its not always so easy to cut people deals just for the sake of niceness.

niceness? I think it was more to do with turn-over

thereby costing the sale and losing business... seems daft

Yeah... but following that logic to its conclusion would result in bike shops selling everything at trade and fitting everything for free just to stay in business.

I'm as taken with a cheap deal as the next person, but its a bit unfair to begrudge a bike shop a little bit of profit now and then...

LONDON innit?!?

both cambridge and london bike shops (some not all) have both blown my minds in the past.

FAR to many cycle commuters that will pay ANYTHING the bike shop ask. Bike shop then gets in bad habits and tries it on with every punter. The result is stupid situations like you got, where £120 on a headset doesnt even get them excited.

If it was my bike shop you woulda got a cuppa while you waited for me to fit it for nowt. Though i would have asked you to nip out for biscuits...

Vote with your feet mate.
The main issue os not that they decided not to fit it for free (perhaps with justification) but that they attempted to charge you £12 over RRP. They are a rip off.

My LBS has fitted headsets I've bought for free, but I regulary spend with them - in fact last week their workshop fitted a previously bought (from them) headset to a new frame for free.

And then today I spent £30 on bearings, didn't even bother checking online prices, but also was given a demo in how to change them - so suits me.

And I wonder what the original 'poster' does for a job, and does HE work for free?

A London bike shop charging over rrp isn't that much of a suprise as they 'probably' have higher overheads. It is [i]'recommended'[/i] retail price after all.

And I wonder what the original 'poster' does for a job, and does HE work for free?

I'm a travel agent... my salary is low 😆 but no, I don't work for free, we do charge service fees etc.

I'm not having a pop at the store for charging to fit things, or even for charging above RRP, it's more that for the sake of £15 I've taken my business elsewhere, makes me wonder how a business can survive if everyone 'voted with their feet' as I've done...

though I know us STW folk aren't at all representative of the usual bike crowd (especially the chaps that buy things from my LBS, who stock nothing but high-end boutique loveliness at full price!)

I think tracknicko is partly onto something there - when I'm in my LBS, the amount of people who wander in without a clue about bikes & are more than happy to pay for any manner of things to be fitted/repaired; even things like fitting clip on mud guards.
There's generally always one Dad with his son's wheel asking for them to repair the puncture - and willing to pay for it. Why not teach the son to repair it himself!?

If people are willing to pay for their services, then the shop will charge what they can get.
You have to remember that to most people who go into these shops, their bike isn't their hobby and they have no desire/inclination to fit HTII BB's, set-up rear mechs, bleed brakes etc. etc. And if the shop is busy with plenty of paid workshop work, then why would they be bothered about fitting your CK headset gratis? Especially if, as suggested above they might not be making a fantastic profit on it, in the first place.

We had a 'fit for free' policy on all products bought at the store price, we rarely discounted which enabled this, sadly a lot of customers want a discount and free service. But that was back of the queue stuff.... So paying workshop got priority. If the shop staff were not busy then they would do it, if they had the skill.

Dont forget that fitting a headset requires specialist tools (expensive) and some degree of skill. Should be no reason not to charge for it. Sadly the advent of Ebay, Wiggle and CRC to name a few is really putting pressure on the IBD which has a knock on that the staff get paid so little they cannot stay in the trade for long or are disalusioned (spelling) and bitter about how hard they work and how little they earn....

Some places do get better trade price the more they order/sell but on products like that it wont be that much of a difference. Also on products like that the margins for the dealers are much lower than on other mass produced goods so could actually make a loss offering free fitting!

erm.... not sure where I am now or what I am talking about.

More tea anyone?

My LBS got a load of King BBs in, free fitting and a tenner cheaper than elsewhere, plus they grease you up every 6 months with their special tool....

they grease you up every 6 months with their special tool

that's a rather [i]personal[/i] service to offer isn't it? 😆

Dont forget that fitting a headset requires specialist tools (expensive) and some degree of skill

Well, yes and no. £30 of the interweb for a decent quality headset press and five minutes reading about how to do it and anybody can fit a new headset (even me and I'm a total plank when it comes to waving tools around). I agree that for certain jobs an LBS has to charge because of the time and tools required. I've never expect a bike shop to face a frame for free for example as the tools are so damn costly and a lot of skill is needed to do it right, but if a customer is willing to pay £120 for a new CK headset I reckon the shop should be prepared to fit it for free. Unless of course the old headset needs to be removed and the frame faced, then you're onto a whole other bit of work needing to be done.

My advice to the OP is to buy a cheaper headset, their own headset press and find out about the joy of fitting it for yourself. After you've fitted a couple of headsets over the course of a couple of years the tool will have been paid for and you'll always have mates who will want to use it.

and you'll always have mates who will want to use it.

Personsally I'd never dream of charging £10 per wheel for changing tyres and I'd probably have done the headset for free as long as I didn't have anything too urgent in it's way, but I'm not in London, I don't have London overheads and I don't have customers on London wages. I do sometimes wonder if I've been a bit too cheap when customers look at their bil and say "is that all?"

and I don't have customers on London wages

I wish I was on this mythical 'London Wage' 🙁 £20k base salary plus commission (when I get it!), I'm rich I tells thee 😆

to pay the £120 asking price

So would you be asking them to make a contribution to justify your outlay?

No, they're mates, and I'm always happy to lend tools to friends as long as I get them back in one piece. I' ve used my own headset press enough for it to have paid for itself by now.

We looked at what we were getting CK headsets from Evolution. Then added the time it took to fit it, as everyone expected them to be fitted for free and decided to stop selling them - it just wasn't worth it. S'pecially when you can get one from the States for less than we were paying in the first place...

the one's i use survive through good service to their happy customers. I'd happily pay a bit more for good service rather than go CRC cheap every time. I'd rather keep my LBS going by paying a bit more so they can help me out when i need a favour. And oh yeah alot of them give discount if you shop there regularly

LBS are struggling to deal with the net sellers. More people are becoming comfortable buying online.
Customers use the shops to view a product then buy online, the shops often cant buy stock at the prices crc/wiggle/merlin sell at and keeping big stocks of goods is expensive.
Like all other retailers dealing with the same problem they can offer something more than the web, advice, service and a good returns/repair policy. That service is has a limited value, if they are more than 10/20% above the average web price they will loose customers.
Good retailers make money bad ones go bust, just like always really.

My LBS, which is a first-rate shop, fits for free when you buy from them. Makes sense I'd say, and your LBS might be wise to follow their lead.

I always assumed that places charge, say, £10 to change a tyre to try and put people off! It'd be a PITA to be doing them for free all the time, and likewise it's not really worth charging £2.50 or something. So just set a price that actually makes it just about worth doing, and if people are happy to pay it, off you go- if not, sell 'em a puncture repair kit.

This might be a funny thing to say on this thread, but one of the things that really attracts me to cycling is the self-sufficiency it gives you. With my bike I have my transport, my recreation, my access to travel, the hills, shops, anywhere, all within my control. I don't have to rely on anyone else.

For me, that extends to the mechanics side of things too. I like being able to sort everything on my bike, with simple tools and be self reliant. I always buy online, because it's cheaper and I like fitting everything myself. Any LBS' I've ever had have been annoying, with blinkered opinions about bikes/riding, expensive and not that helpful. So I learnt to do it myself.

I'm always confused about the bike industry and the fact that people expect discounts and free fitting just because they're buying something, if you tried that in a garage or asked for a discount in most stores they would give you a funny look.
Fair enough charging over RRP is a bit much but if you consider how much the shop actually makes from something like a CK headset after all the overheads then you'll realise why they charge labour.

Agreed..... Go to a restaurant and the margins are upwards of 200% gross and then you pay a service charge of 10-20%.... Go to a bike shop where gross margins are TOP 35% (on bikes) and people want either a cash discount or accessories chucked in.

Funny old world.... Although I still ask for a discount at sainsburys every time I shop!

Do you ask them to taking your shopping to your car too?

ha never thought of that always depressed that they never give me any extra discount!!!!

How do LBS stay in business

Also saw a lass walk in with a flat rear tyre, she asked for new tyres to suit, chap sold her 2 tyres (front & rear) and then charged £10 per end (so £20) for fitting them... lady took that without batting an eyelid

Answered your own question

I don't go near the bike shop normally but when I was going single speed properly they were dead helpful, worked on stuff there and then, lent me tools, gave me the spacers free etc etc.

I think if I'd handed the bike over and let them get on with it I'd have paid through the nose, but overall I was pretty pleased.

Ian

Actually working in a bike shop this kind of thing really gets my goat. In no other line of retail would you expect free labour as well as discount on parts, and it's amazing how many people come in, try out components and clothing, waste your time and advice and the go online and buy it.
And then come and complain to you when they've bought the wrong thing or it goes wrong. Aaargh!

Actually working in a bike shop this kind of thing really gets my goat. In no other line of retail would you expect free labour as well as discount on parts, and it's amazing how many people come in, try out components and clothing, waste your time and advice and the go online and buy it.
And then come and complain to you when they've bought the wrong thing or it goes wrong. Aaargh!

See what you need to do is qualify people more. Ask the right questions to make sure they are not just using you as Googles Changing Room.

There is also the argument that you just need to 'work' with people and give them a reason to buy from you.

mansonsoul - Member
This might be a funny thing to say on this thread, but one of the things that really attracts me to cycling is the self-sufficiency it gives you. With my bike I have my transport, my recreation, my access to travel, the hills, shops, anywhere, all within my control. I don't have to rely on anyone else.

For me, that extends to the mechanics side of things too. I like being able to sort everything on my bike, with simple tools and be self reliant. I always buy online, because it's cheaper and I like fitting everything myself. Any LBS' I've ever had have been annoying, with blinkered opinions about bikes/riding, expensive and not that helpful. So I learnt to do it myself.

I totally 100% agree, if there is a job on your bike you can’t do then learn!

Especially in this day and age, the information is widely available, and forums like this one are useful enough if you need to ask a question….

I sometimes despair when friends ask me to fix their bikes for them, it’s not rocket science…

As for LBS’ staying in business, the ones that survive sell more than boutique crap to overpaid mechanical morons…
They shift commuter bikes I expect their weekends are taken up with selling £300-£500 bikes to people baulking at the cost of fuel…
Joe average most likely doesn’t go to an online retailer to buy his new commuter bike…

There is also the argument that you just need to 'work' with people and give them a reason to buy from you.

Even when you know they're just using you as a changing room, you can't just ignore people unfortunately. You can spot them a mile off.....

If they have been rude enough to use you as a changing room then you just need to politely say... "we do appreciate you coming to visit us sir/madam, but we are not able to let you try on products that you do not intend buying from us. As soon as Google work out a way of allowing you to do this on line then we will be happy to price match"

Depending on how you deliver this line you will get
1. a laugh and an open frank discussion and usually a sale
2. no sale from someone who wasnt going to buy from you anyway

spend some time with people at the browsing stage before trying on and ask the right questions.

Feeling a bit guilty about this one at the moment. I almost always use my LBS, ride with them regularly, know them reasonably well and get a fair few bits from them and a bit of free maintanance when i need some.

BUT, i'm getting them to build my new bike tomorrow that i bought in bits from ebay, classifieds, wiggle, chainreaction etc, and not from them. I would have loved to have helped them out and spent my money with them, but price wise i couldn't afford to. The money i'll be charged to get it built will be covered in the savings on the chainset alone. I'd have had to down spec loads of components to have met my budget (and i've stretched that a fair bit already - don't tell the misses).

Would liked to have built it myself, but time, decorating new house, babysitting, lack of garage, tools and skill have ruled this out.

A lot places do pricematch stuff these days, as long as it's in stock and includes price of delivery etc, so often you can walk into a shop and get the same price and speak to a real person.

but price wise i couldn't afford to

But thats part of the argument isn't it? If you couldn't afford to, why are you riding mountainbikes, a stupidly expensive sport? Why not take up jogging or football?

What you mean is "my desire for high performance XTR/X0 kit over-ruled my desire to shop in the local shop". Which is fair enough, but my general, very hippy-ish and probably very mis-informed conscience wouldn't allow me to do that.

My LBS will [i]either[/i] price match the www [i]or[/i] fit for free for many parts. This seems like a fair deal to me and involves the minimum of arithmetic.

Well I am the kind of people who buys wheels 150€ more expensive from the LBS.

But then they let me use the workshop to install it myself 😀

Look, I know they're a business and need to make money... all I'm saying is that that £15 cost them a sale, so now they've made nothing at all (though I accept that even by selling me the unit for £120 and fitting it for free, maybe they wouldn't have made much either... though I find that a little far fetched...)

'tis all good, I wish them well 🙂

I think the main problem is that people are confusing Goods and services here, your LBS sells both, and you were proposing to buy both except you’re expecting them to absorb the cost of a service (not a cheap one to offer) into the pricing of the goods they sell, or in other words taking the piss a bit…..

All well and good but odds are they set their prices excluding a fitting charge and considering the shops other basic Overheads.
They run the business to make money, if the only way they can get your business is to basically loose money then I doubt they need the trade, there will be some mug who’ll pay £135 to have a CK headset bought and fitted on the day, try finding a shop without London overheads and you’ll probably find a cheaper deal on the item and fitting together, except you’ll have the additional cost of travel to factor in…

Basically it’s worth working out the “Total cost of ownership” for the part before you whine about £15 to fit an already overpriced part….

Or just buy an FSA and save the best part of £100…

I do use the local bike shops, but being honest I probably spend more money online.

3 main local bike shops I use:
[list]
[*] Edinburgh Bike Co-op - Service is a bit supermarket-like, but they hold decent stock and their own brand products aren't too bad. I will *never* get my bike serviced there, after they broke my forks and hid the damage a few years back.[/*]
[*] Bicycle Works - If I ever need anything done that I can't do myself, I always go to this shop[/*]
[*]The bike chain - Really nice shop for a browse, or if I need to get something during a lunch break. Last time I was in a really nice American woman (I think?) was manning the till and started chatting about my bike etc - I was just in to buy some new cleats but thought that was pretty nice - taking an interest in customers etc.[/*]
[/list]I bought a £160 endura jacket from EBC last month after trying it on - I would never try something on then buy it online - I think its quite immoral.

Sandy-she is Slovakian. Dasa-ex WC bmx star. She always gets called Australian or American!

Thanks for your comments btw. Say hi next time you are in.

Mark

I've worked in two well respected mtb specialsits. We used to do free CK fitting and try to price match etc. Both shops went bust. Busy but no profit!

Maybe they thought that if you could afford £120 for a headset (I'll confess I don't rate them) then the £15 for fitting wouldn't phase you.

.

"I'd like to pricematch this jar of marmalade please" 😆

Sandy-she is Slovakian

Now this is bonkers.

i recently bought shimano mw80 winter boots. tried on at localish shop - price £140. thought that's a bit steep. 1 day later looked at the same shops website and they were online for £99.50. (ieven ordered them online and then picked them up from the shop lol)

Travel agent, living in London and can afford to drop 120pounds on a headset? Low paid, does not compute...... 😉

Having worked in LBS's in the UK, and now living in NZ, i'm perplexed how the LBS's survive here (Auckland). I've been in a few and they are very expensive, most don't bother selling parts branded by hope, king, etc. They just stock mid range bikes and kids bike, although quite a few sell really high end road, but not much componentry.

Folk have asked me 'why don't don't you open a bike shop'? I can't see the merit in it here, there apears to be little in the way of commuter market (the bread and butter of most inner city shops) due to the being killed factor. Also even thou the NZ dollar is very strong local prices are very high, and that makes CRC&Co seem very good value. (Try 40% cheaper for Hope stuff!)

Bike shops in the UK are on the whole very competitive to NZ and Australian market, especially as wages and taxes are higher here. I know a lot of folk want to get the best deal possible and fit stuff themselves and sort out any compatabilty/warrenty issues, but by the same token a lot of people will pay a premium for the value added aspect of dealing with maybe knowledgeable staff with the correct tools for the job. Swings and round-a-bouts, game of two halfs etc.....

I've worked in two well respected mtb specialsits. We used to do free CK fitting and try to price match etc. Both shops went bust. Busy but no profit!

Out of interest, which shops?

they'll stay in business by not stocking chris king as you can get pretty much any of it off ebay at what i would pay for it and charging for fitting it.....

why do you all expect a discount in a bike shop? whats different with other shops where you wouldnt ask? do you ask in a hifi shop? a pet shop?

a lbs is a business at the end of the day...ive yet to see crc,merlin or wiggle fit anything!

do you ask in a hifi shop? a pet shop?

Yes, I'd haggle a little in these types of stores, why not?

do folk haggle in your travel agents?

I'll haggle in any type of specialist store where I'm spending large amounts of money.

So LBS, motorcycle clothing shops, and the motorbike dealer, car dealers, furniture shops, tailors. They've all been at least asked for a discount over the last year or so.

None have refused.

I can see both sides of the LBS-coin having working in one years ago and recently always buying everything myself online (because I have the tools and skill to fit anything myself). My LBS will always give me a straight 10% off due to years of custom, and I do sometimes think their prices for fitting take the piss a little. But when you added up what it costs them for half an hour of a spanner-monkey's time to fit a pair of tyres or a headset, the charges aren't too bad really.

do folk haggle in your travel agents?

indeed they do... everyone wants a discount nowadays, sometimes I give one, sometimes I don't, depends on a lot of things (much like a bikestore I'd guess 😉 )

i haggled in currys and got £150 off a sony telly 😀

khani check the price of that TV in 3 weeks, I bet they knock £150 off for the January sales.

was an ex display down from 900 to 650, offerd 500cash and got my hand bitten off, you're probabley right though but it was ok at the time,

Well - just picked up £80 worth of tyres from my LBS. Maybe a couple of quid more than if I had got them of t'intenet but no more than that. Nice little bit of discount.

Service - thats what you get from your LBS. Thanks TBC