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I'm currently running BB7 on my mountain bike and they have no issues, just the fact that they aren't very powerful and overheat quite quickly on prolonged descents. Therefor I am thinking of upgrading to hydraulic brakes and I have a few questions:
Should I buy used or new brakes and what to ask when buying used ones?
How much kit do I need to maintain hydros? (bleeding, changing pads etc.)
Are two pot brakes enough for general trail use?
Thanks.
night and day
buy new
from bb7 - then even the cheapest Shimano 2 pots will be better
no maintenance needed on Shimano, if it leaks, bin it and buy another
pads? get sintered
Massive jump I should think, although never used cable.
Have a look at the Clarke’s ones, they get great write ups on here and are mega cheap.
Normally new set ups have long hoses that need shortening, so possibly bleeding.
Have you got any mates with kit, they could lend it you and help a bit.
As above
Night and day
Well set up BB7s with compressionless cables are as good as a cheap set of hydros so you may not notice a huge difference. However, the performance of hydros is a lot more consistent, they need less maintenance and adjust for pad wear automatically.
Deore are the best bang for buck Shimano ones and were the most reliable for me as well
They will be amazing compared to your bb7s
Yes I am willing to throw a chunk of money at a new braking system if it is long lasting and powerful so money isn't really the issue to some degree. The issue is I don't really know anyone with experience with hydros nor do I have any kit - just wondering if it worth the hassle to switch.
Also how difficult is brake bleeding?
I had mechanical discs on my first proper mountain bike in 2005, I thought they were ok but they were pants compared to the hydraulic ones on my next bike.
I also had mechanical on my Croix de fer which I sold to build my new cross bike with hydraulic brakes. Again night and day in comparison.
I wouldn't even bother with Deore, the basic Shimano are fine. I currently have a basic pair of Magura MT sport brakes which I really rate.
I currently have a basic pair of Magura MT sport brakes which I really rate.
Yeah, skip Deore and go fo these.
I’ve used several cable discs, clarkes, deore, bb7, and something else I can’t remember the name of. By far the best were deore.
The difference between cable and hydro ime isn’t massive, but there’s no way you wouldn’t notice.
A bit more power, better modulation, less maintenance.
Definitely worth doing.
An absolutely massive difference especially if they’re setup well. The power hydraulics have, stop a car from silly speeds to nothing in next to no time, scale it down a bit and you’ve got that sort of braking intensity but on a bike and with modulation if you wish 👍
Regarding maintenance usually you don't need to do much to hydro brakes at all. Brake pad changes are straight forward. The fluid can last a few years without needing to be refreshed. And I think now a days most brands have pretty easy bleed methods. I only have experience with Shimano and Formula brakes and both are very easy to bleed.
Bleed kits are not expensive, take a look at Epic Bleed kits, they do aftermarket bleed kits for very affordable price. You get everything included in once package and they have videos showing you how to bleed the brakes.
First time might take a while to get a good bleed but its hard to actually brake something when bleeding all you'll get is a bad bleed leaving the brake spongy and you just start again, it quite hard to do some irreversible damage when bleeding brakes.
As above, big difference.
Demo a new mountain bike, matters little which as I'm struggling to think of one that would be in a demo fleet without hydro brakes. Hell, even a cheap hire bike at a trail centre will probably have them. Present restrictions notwithstanding, obvs
Failing that, post your general location and someone will let you have a fiddle with theirs. Their brakes too, if you play your cards right 😉
Failing THAT, new Shimano at the budget of your preference.
Surprised to read replies from people that haven't actually used cable brakes. BB7s are very good when set up well. Only takes seconds to reach down and dial the pistons in for pad wear. The important thing is high quality sealed cables. Never felt they were short on power so might be related to pads or rotor size. I'd take them over anything sub Deore level hydraulic.
Bb7s properly set up with decent cables will beat a shit pair of hydros upside down and back to front. They only miss out on self adjustment. In really poor conditions this is an issue however typically this also means their bite point is generally predictable and adjustable. No fluid to overheat. Pad replacement is easy. There is no lack of power.
What @Del and @mudeverywhere said and I’m not light. I’m a big fan of BB7s
Once you've faffed about bleeding them initially (not always necessary, even if cutting the hose if you do it carefully imo), you'll never go back to cable.👍
TRP Spyke outperforms BB7 and bottom end hydraulics IME. Probably due to dual piston actuation. Ridiculously easy to adjust for pad wear also. 3mm hex key is all that is required. So easy to set up for the required feedback of your preference.
I've run a few different makes of mechanical brakes, plus a lot of different hydros. BB7s are easily the best mechanicals, but all mechanical brakes are dependent on having good cables and keeping them adjusted. Even some pretty basic hydros will work as well as BB7s in tip-top condition. Decent hydros are just more consistent and require much less maintenance than mechanicals.
Assuming the cables are in good condition, the braking power really comes down to the leverage ratio, the rotor size, and the type of pad. Decent mechanical levers are adjustable for leverage, so you can get more power with a spongier lever feel. Fitting a larger front rotor might be worth trying anyway. BB7s can be very powerful when they set up properly.
Bleeding isn't particularly difficult when you know how, but it can be frustrating. It's not something you need to do regularly though. I wouldn't make that a consideration in choosing a brake.
Hydraulics feel nicer all round than all the cable mechanical brakes I’ve used.
Assuming you’re in Belgium / Europe (excluding the UK with all the brexit nonsense) I’d pick up something like these:
The link is the front one, but presumably they have a separate listing for the back one too.
Pick up a bleed kit and hose shortener from epic bleed solutions (assuming they are currently shipping from the UK to continental Europe) and you’re away.
You might find on initial fit with shortened hoses that you get away without breeding them - I did when I fitted some slx 4 pots to my mates new bike recently.
https://epicbleedsolutions.com/
I've just swapped OEM pads on my Tektro's for Uberbike Race Matrix, they already had Jagwire good cables.
A noticeable step up in power.
I've got mechanical TRP spyres on my cross bike and hydro sram guide RS on my MTB and even though people seem to praise the Spyres as 'good' mechanical ones I think they're absolute garbage compared to hydros.
No comparison honestly, hydraulic ones are better in every way.
What scotroutes said.
When set up properly Much of a muchness barring extra adjustment needed for cable brakes.
Hydraulics do tollerate bad set up better though so if you have clods of ham for hands then yeah hydraulics.
BB7s are good, Spyres are great.
Both hydro and cable are fine until they start playing up. Cables are easy to sort, hydro can be a pita.
Surprised to read replies from people that haven’t actually used cable brakes
Are you new here etc 😂
Hydro are better but not night and day IMO/E.
I've deore on one bike bb7 on the other and I cant tell the difference tbh
There is no reason at all why a mechanical disc brake is worse than a hydro one.
they can be harder to set up but then people have issues with setting up hydros
for what its worth in the tandem world mechanical discs are often used because they have less issues when they get very hot
There is no reason at all why a mechanical disc brake is worse than a hydro one.
There is always some amount of cable drag. If the cables are in good condition, the difference might be minimal, but a hydro brake doesn't suffer from this problem. Also, most cable brakes need the inner pad clearance to be adjusted regularly, and they all need the cable to be adjusted. Hydros are self adjusting, so they don't need maintenance between pad replacement.
The only reason I went from cable to hydro on my VN Amazon #gradventourer was that I was regularly swapping wheels and the hydros reduced the time I'd otherwise spend readjusting the BB7s for best performance.
Ok thanks all for your advice
I've got BB7s on my SS. Pokey enough if set up properly but they are fiddly to setup and need attention.
Even basic deore level hydros are far far better in every regard
I upgraded the rear cable on my BB7 to compressionless. That was a decent improvement in performance for 10 GBP. What size rotors are you using? If there is room to increase then, that'll be another increase in braking power for not a huge outlay.
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">I recently replaced the front cable on a set of mine with the old rear and fitted new on the rear because of damage to the outer. They'd done about 7 years. Fwiw I do near 100k/week with about 2500m rise/fall in all weathers. I don't touch the cables from one year to the next. Jagwires.</span>
You don't adjust the cable after you've set the brakes up. Or at least you should very, very, rarely need to. Wear adjustment is done at the calipers. Even at this time of year I adjust for wear about once every three weeks. I tend to brake hard for short periods of time using both brakes. Every couple of years I get a night which is properly filthy, on top of already filthy trail conditions, which leads to adjustment at the bottom of nearly every trail but that's really quite rare.
Oh and if you go hydro, make sure you get Hopes ! lol.
@belgianwaffle as far a as I'm aware, you could go up to as much as 200mm. Not sure exactly what adapter you'd need, but there's definitely scope there.
I always had hydro but thought mechanical couldn't be that bad. I borrowed a gravel bike with Shimano cable brakes. They are that bad.
I'm not a cheerleader for mechanical brakes per se, but I do run them on 3 of my 7 bikes.
I'd say most people who moan that mechanicals are crap in comparison to hydros have not ridden well set up mechanical brakes.
I've done a full day in the wet at BPW on bb7s. No problem...though I did wear out the pads!
Spyres on my Genesis Vagabond do-it-all bike have easily slowed me down on 70+kmh road downhills. They've done nearly 4000km, on a second set of pads, and still stop me on a penny if I wish.
But the daddy's are the Paul's Klampers on my Stooge 😎
Well set up, I'd say they rival the 4 pot Hopes I have on another bike.
Especially running the slightly longer version of the Paul's love levers....more leverage!
Oodles of modulation too.
To those saying buy the cheapest Shimano brakes....yes they are cheap and cheerful, and they stop you well enough. I run some Deores on my Krampus in fact.
BUT be ready for wandery bite-point fun. It will happen.
Then you'll chuck them, or try and fix them, and they'll end up in your spares box.
I've got 3 sets, that i managed to bodge one working set from 😂
I have mechanical Spyres on Orro terra gravel bike and hydraulic ultegra on Orro STC gold road bike. Both have floating shimano rotors (160 front, 140 rear) and Kevlar pads. They are equally as good at stopping, the hydraulics take slightly less finger effort to work and have better modulation (subtle change in finger pressure causes more of a change in braking). Had the Spyres first and see no need to change them to hydraulics based upon my ultegra experience.
I remember the days of mechanical discs on mtb and compared to the 4 pot Magura MT7s on my full sus they were utterly useless, the Maguras are truly brilliant and I would not swap them for mechanicals.
My 2c
you could go up to as much as 200mm
How much difference do you think that would make to the stopping power?
Anyone care to come and set my BB7s up properly for me please? I have a set on my Fargo and I ******* hate them, had them since 2014, tried lots of different pads, have played around with them, the inner adjuster gets clogged up and is a bastard to turn through the wheel unless I take the pads out and give them a damn good clean and a squirt of WD-40, today the front one just started squeaking in the middle of a ride. Power is meh, can't get the rear to even lock up, it either rubs or it hardly works.
It must be me right? But all my hydro brakes at least work even if on occasion the seals fail (once, huge descent in the alps) or they pump up a bit and need bleeding once a year.
Can't wait until I can find a set of drop-bar hydros at a decent price.
in fact my fingers still hurt from trying to adjust the front one to stop it squeaking today.
Power is meh, can’t get the rear to even lock up, it either rubs or it hardly works.
I had the same issue on the mechanical system that came with my arkose. Probably my fault, but I could never get them right. I swapped them for Giant’s Conduct system and couldn’t be happier.
Well that's a whole lot of conflicting views. I think the OP needs to try different brakes and make his own mind up.
To add another element into the whole debate between different brakes, I think it can come down to things that people don't talk about when discussing brakes. People's weight, their braking style, terrain they ride, brake set up and weather they ride in. I think all the above can really have a big affect on people's view on brakes. I suppose it's the same with everything really, it's all just personal perception.
the inner adjuster gets clogged up and is a bastard to turn through the wheel unless I take the pads out and give them a damn good clean and a squirt of WD-40
The inner adjuster can be turned with a T25 torx if it's tight by hand. Might be a stupid question but I hope you're keeping the WD-40 well away from the pads and rotors?
those who are having issues with mechanical brakes not working something is wrong. I have had a couple of sets and all as powerful as any hydro brake. Lever feel is not as nice and they need adjusting but power? No problems at all.
In my experience if you have BB7s come on a bike, the basic cables they come with likely won't be good enough. If there is stretch in the inner cable or compression of the outer when pulling the lever it won't get near the potential braking force. Like a well bled hydraulic brake it should not feel spongy and there should be a defined bite point felt through the lever.
Yes I’m keeping wd40 away from pads and rotors 🙂
If you've had them since 2014, have you ever taken them apart to service them?
My BB7s are on a 2013 Fargo and have done 25000km of commuting with little TLC. Could lock up the wheels when new and now.
They have alligator pads in at the mo.
you could go up to as much as 200mm
How much difference do you think that would make to the stopping power?
It will make a noticeable difference. TJ is right - if BB7s are lacking power, there is something wrong with how they are set up. If it were me, I'd fit an 8" rotor and new pads on the front, plus make sure the cable is clean and lubed. You'll need to bed in the pads again, but if it's all adjusted properly and the cable isn't sticky, they should have plenty of power. If you decide to go for hydros the bigger rotor will be useful, so it's really just costing you a set of pads.
scotroutes
Full Member
Well set up BB7s with compressionless cables are as good as a cheap set of hydros so you may not notice a huge difference. However, the performance of hydros is a lot more consistent, they need less maintenance and adjust for pad wear automatically.
Absolutely this.
I love BB7's, but you need a bit of experience to get the best out of them.
Previous gen Shimano hydros are flawed. They leak.
Older and newer ones, fine.
My wife has a 15 year old set of Hope Mono Mini hydraulics - infinitely rebuildable and have never had a single issue.
Pay the Hope tax and have pretty much perfect brakes that will last forever, or buy BB7's and have the same reliability and functionality with less feel and more tweaking.
TRP Spyres, imhe, should be great, but aren't.
The design makes perfect sense but they just don't work in real life. I have no idea why.
I ran BB7s (with XTR levers) for 11 years, initially while living overseas but then simply because they worked. Couldn't fault them. Like RustySpanner, I can't say the same for the Spyres I've had for the last 12 months - pretty poor, although I'll try some different levers before giving up on them.
Three year old XT/SLX brakes on the mountain bike have been fine; no sign of the Curse of the Wandering Bite Point, but I do use them regularly, and refresh the oil with a quick gravity bleed when I change the pads. Are they 'better' than the BB7s were? Marginally. Will I still be using them in eight years? Unlikely.
Had TRP spyres on my last commuter, they were shite. Cheapest of the cheap shimano hydros on current commuter have been flawless over the same period of use.
Nobeer
Same. Replaced BB7s and just better.
I'd buy a pair of Clarks M2 OP.
You'll not find much cheaper hydraulic disc brakes, they are Very good VFM.
Pop the BB7s in the spares box and see how you get on with the M2s...
Absolute worst case you'll not like them and make a reasonable chunk of, a not huge spend, back flogging the M2s on. Best case you'll take to the M2s and a pair of BB7s will probably more than cover the cost on eBay (people still seem to pay over the odds for them).
Cable disks are attractive to all those who think they might one day do a round-the world tour. See also: steel frames, 26" wheels, Schwalbe Marathons.
The only brakes that I've ever had outright fail on me - are Hope C2s circa early 2000s and Deores. Avoid at all costs.
Agreed on the Maguras.
I'd happily run BB7's again if I needed to at the moment I'm running Klampers which are just lovely but $$$, TRP Spyre's just haven't bee great for me.
Saying that the GRX levers and Hope RX callipers are great, but can't tell the difference from the Klampers with TRP levers both running the same size rotors!
Cable disks are attractive to all those who think they might one day do a round-the world tour. See also: steel frames, 26″ wheels, Schwalbe Marathons
I hate sweeping generalisations. 😉
Got a set on my sc 5010 cc.
And my chameleon.
Set up, they just work. If they came in a box with decent cables prepped and people just strapped them on to their bikes like they do hydros they'd do far better.
Nick - have you ever looked at the cables, or more specifically, the cable outers?
Have a look at the Clarke’s ones, they get great write ups on here and are mega cheap.
Also plenty of write ups on how crap they are, and how they dont last and how spongy they become, and plenty of bike threads over the years about the 50 ways people will suggest you should try to bleed them.
Then theres the reason you can get a 2nd hand set of ebay for a tenner- Because theyre crap and nobody really wants them.**
Buy some Hope's, and look towards mono minis(The black and gold ones)*, just look for good cosmetic condition, which is usually a sign theyre been looked after and not heavily used.
** Standing by for abusive posting.
All hopes up to mini mono's are for 165/185mm rotors, which in 6 bolt are like hens teeth.
*Mono mini and above(later) are very good, and Hope brakes in general, most here have them. Reason enough 😕
Oh - op. 160mm? F no! 200s ftw.
Nick – have you ever looked at the cables, or more specifically, the cable outers?
Yes, they are SRAM brake outers, should I be looking at something else?
Ok thanks all - I think I will have a look at some cheap and easy shimanos like the mt200s or mt400s as they seem to be quite popular and are above the base shimanos. And maybe I might upgrade to 180 all round just for cooling benifits since I am buying new rotors anyway.
@Nick
Compressionless outers make a big difference.
I like the Gusset xl linear brake cable. Costs about £10 per brake.
This is a good guide to BB7 set up:
http://howtosetuptheavidbb7.weebly.com/how-to-set-up-the-avid-bb7.html
@ajantom thanks! will take a look, and change the cables, cheaper than buying new brakes at least 🙂
I can join the club of TRP Spyres being woeful on cx bike. They were OK when it was dry and my wife is happy with them on her road bike, but when it gets mucky they need too much mid-ride fettling. About to swap them for hydro (bought, just to fit them this week).
You can't blame the calipers, pads or levers unless the cable movement is virtually friction free and it is easily achievable.
If you're feeling resistance when pulling the lever then your cable outer is either full of crud, split or poorly routed.
If on flat bar levers run a gear cable inner in brake outer. Fibrax stuff works fine. Reduces drag between inner and outer and i've never snapped an inner or torn the nipple off.
Road brifters (Shimano) as you can't use gear inners, although I have thought about adding solder to the nipples, you have to be careful on cable routing as drop bar cable routing will always add friction, tend to get sharp bends on chainstay to caliper mount too which doesn't help.
Over the longer term I've generally found mechanicals more reliable. When hydro's work, they are great with easy power and light feel. However, when they don't it can be a right arse to sort. And I've not had a set of hydro's not lose power to the rear brake to the point where I can't lock the wheel on tarmac... Used Hope Minis. Mono-Minis, Hayes HFX9 and all just lost power at the back end, probably due to over heating.
Yes mechanicals need a bit more TLC, however this can be achieved much more easily than with Hydro's. Also, if left to stand or stored for a period of time, Hydros seem to lose fluid or something, meaning they don't work when you pull them back out of the shed. Mechanicals may need a little WD40 on the cables, and they're good to go.
And I'm running Shimano M475 mechanicals with random Clarks pads, as that is what I could get at the time.
Cable routing and condition is critical, and compressionless is best.
Drop bar cables brakes are not as good, as the reduced cable pull of the levers seems to make them even more sensitive to poor cables, and with the tight bends under the bar tape and chainstay mounted calipers, friction is put into the system at both ends. Full length compressionless cables are more important here than on MTB's IMHO.
All this could have been resolved if Shimano had increased road-brake cable pull to math MTB V Brake cable pull in the 1990's. They've gradually been increasing the cable pull of their road brakes over the years, but how much better would it have been to have the ability to MTB disc calipers with road drops?
Got bb7s on my xbike. Thought I'd upgrade, never bothered as they do work. Even replaced a set myself (whilst letting the shop do anything beyond replacing pads on hydro brakes). Just that you really do need to test before every ride, picking up speed on a road descent is not the time to wonder when you last checked them...
Anyway, only posting because no one else has said that cheap SRAM hydro aren't very good. (My experience: of feel and how long they last before breaking; whereas my experience of Avid -ages ago- and Shimano which I've got on my current MTBs's been positive to the extent I've never really thought about them).