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I've had enough. Just putting a new front mech on Mrs PPs Kona and the rear wheel bearings are shot. AGAIN!! a quick check and the fronts are grumbling too. That's 2 sets of bearings in 3 years on a bike that doesnt get used more than twice a month
It's still on the original rear brake pads (fronts replaced a month or 2 ago for the first time) chain, cassette and chainrings. Which are all Shimano XT.
I know why this happens: Pro 2s are a compromised design. One hub to do everything. And as such the bearings are too small to last. Compare them to old XC bearings. Go on, you'll see.
So. Seriously now. Does anybody want to swap these wheels for either something similar with Shimano XT or Hope XC hubs? (DT 4.2 or Mavic 717 rims) I've had enough of the damned things now. That's 2 sets we've had. Both the same. They're fine if you want a trinket to look nice and you change your bike all the time, but otherwise they're just expensive scrap.
to offer a counter argument, I have a rear Pro2 which is 5 years old and used every week and on its original bearings
could it be the way you're cleaning it - jetwash, chemicals? or are the bearings misaligned?
are they actually shot? is there play? or just a bit grindy?
At last, I'm not the only one finding this.
3 sets of bearings in two 1/2 years on a hope Pro II front 20mm through axle on a bike that is used once or twice a month !
I do wonder just how much real world testing hope do, cos of this with Pro II's and the 3 failed QR seat post clamps I have had. Oh yes they replace them but I'd rather not have the incovenience of a bust clamp in middle of t'moors thank you very much.
what bearings are you using?
years of life out of pro 2 bearings here used frequently - is it cheap bearings you have used?
Pete, I know you're switched on with the mechanical stuff and you're right in what you say about bearing size. However, my pro II hubs last almost as long as the BULB hubs. Is it possible there could be another cause? Bent axle or some misalignment in the hub shell? All the bearings or just some? Might it be worth having a word with hope before you bin them?
The original bearings on my Pro2s are totally gubbed- they lasted 5 months. 5 months. No jet washing, no nasty chemicals, just a lot of riding. And now a lot of wobble.
I wish I'd kept my Shimano XTs. I only swapped them because it made more economic sense to get a Hope Hoop than replace the rims.
+ 1 speak to hope first... but:
Whilst my front is 3.5 years old and on it's original bearings (still smooth), the rear bearing get replaced every year or less up to now. It's not what I expected but I'm trying the genuine hope supplied bearings this time to see what happens.
Enduro bearings do some nice stuff with higher grade bearings, thicker grease and better seals. They seem to run longer on the bulb fronts I've tried them in.
Might be worth a look. Not to be confused with their max type bearings.
my pro 2 went for 2 years or so before i need to replace the bearing and the wee catches... got my brother to fix it for me mind so it only cost me a tenner or so in parts! can't complain:)
Same problem here. Bike 3 years old and ridden about 6 times a month but now on 3rd set of rear wheel bearings which are already showing signs of play. I don't replace them myself as I don't have the correct tool so I wonder if my LBS has the same problem and bodges it with a big socket or similar resulting in incorrectly aligned bearings? So thinking about new wheels; but what to get? I should add I've only used Hope supplied bearings
Anyone want to swap a set of hopes for a set of cup and cone bearing wheels email me - Depending what I might even be able to do you a two for one swap
This was exactly my experience with hope too, i think the newer bearings are inferior.....last set of xt hubs i had lasted 6 years of twice a week riding, were smooth as silk when i sold em
I run Pro II hubs on both bike, 1 is 3 years old, other is 2 years old, both on original bearings and bikes are ridden 3-4 times a week in mud, rain, snow, etc.
can I ask people having problems with Pro II bearings on the rear hub, what bike(s) these have been used on?
we've seen this issue with customers running suspension bikes with laterally flexible rear suspension - the Orange 5 with QR rear hub is a specific example we've seen a number of times (different customers) in our workshop, these bikes we're worked on have also had reoccuring problems with uneven brake pad wear, brake drag and binding pistons
we changed one Orange 5 customer's rear hub to the Hope "screw-in bolt" axle + bolts which certainly stiffened the rear swingarm, and the problem went away both for the hub and rear brake
Hey, sounds like a pain in the ass! what if supplied you with rear bearings kit's for the pro 2's at a discount and you send me your old bearings?
If you help me with my research I'll help you get bearings cheaply, I've tested my bearing range extensively in frame pivot points, however I'm only justbeggining to test them in MTB hubs.
I have a few people testing them in different countries like Australia and the USA, I also have people testing them in europe, that said the more data I have the quicker my analysis will be.
Anyone interested in helping me out, just send me an email, peter poddy, would you like one of my bearings kits for free to test on the rear hub?
I also have japanese bearings the same quality as hope's, only difference being mines are weather proofed for out doors use and don't rust internally.
Why don't we see if we can't work out why this is happening and figure out a way to make the bearing last longer, all it would take is for a few simple questions to be answered 😉
Glad i chose XT hubs on my recent wheel build rather than Hope now. At least they are easy to service yourself.
I'd never buy Hope hubs though - the noise is a love it hate it thing and i'm in the hate club.....
are you replacing the extra seals when you replace the bearings? Particularly in the case of the DS, we've found this vital.
Pre fill the new bearings with grease. Kaesae is right.
we changed one Orange 5 customer's rear hub to the Hope "screw-in bolt" axle + bolts which certainly stiffened the rear swingarm, and the problem went away both for the hub and rear brake
Do you have to change the dropouts or is it a straight fit?
Pre fill the new bearings with grease. Kaesae is right.
I use silicone grease which seems to last.
Dunno why Hope thought they needed to change the old XC design anyway. 4x same size bearings which run smoothly for bloody ages. Cheap as chips to replace. Brilliant hubs.
Oh, and the Ti freehub bodies are far, far more durable than the alloy ones. Pro2s are a backward step imo.
I've had an XC hub for 7 years; original bearings, still perfect. I looked at a Pro2 in a glass case in a shop recently, and it fell apart. 🙁
I looked at a Pro2 in a glass case in a shop recently, and it fell apart.
The hub or the case... 😆
cynic-al - MemberPre fill the new bearings with grease. Kaesae is right.
As you should know from when we have had this debate before many would disagree including experts in the field. So its purely your opinion not a fact.
I would never open up a bearing to put grease in - it damages the seals and leads to premature failure IMO / IME( unless I had new seals to put in afterwards)
My bearings last thousands and thousands of miles used summer and winter. I buy good quality ones and don't open them up so the seals remain intact.
I'm one of the riders Kaesae is referring to in his post - testing some wheel bearings in the USA. It's early days yet; I changed the bearings in my Eno which lasted 3 months to some he supplied. (Yes the ENO is not very well sealed, but we don't ride in the wet...)
Not ridden them yet, but it's hard to fault a guy who's prepared to send you free bearings all in the name of research.
With regards Hopes, I only ever ran front Pro 2's, which had pretty small bearings to accomodate the 20mm axle - bearings ran sweet for years. What Esher Shore said makes a lot of sense...
I would never open up a bearing to put grease in - it damages the seals and leads to premature failure IMO / IME( unless I had new seals to put in afterwards)
That's just you opinion too TJ. My memory is that you recently stated that you did not proclaim yourself to be an expert on mechanical matters? One of us spent years working in bike shops as well as doing home mechanics.
And I'm sorry but if someone can't remove a seal without damaging it then I question their skills as a mechanic.
Al - yes its my opinion which is why I stated IMO / IME and its also the opinion from previous threads on here from people who actually know about this stuff. The damage to the seals is too small to see.
Plenty people on my side too.
Still fail to see the damage to seals point - the lip of the seal is flexible and rests against a flat cylinder IYKWIM - if it deflects an invisible amount to one side what does that matter?
I don't think anyone has ever answered that.
thats right - its a matter of opinion. Even experts ( and thats not you or me) are divided)
Hmmm My rear pro2 has done over 10000 miles and is still fine. The old xc hub i had was 6 years old before they went and the one i'm running now has had the bearings changed in the last two months, original bearings came out from a 2004 hub. So.....dunno really. This end, can't moan to much as yet.
TJ any ACTUAL expert could do a study and get an answer or work it out from existing data.
I don't accept that neither of us have any expertese.
If only mfrs pre-filled then we'd all be happy. A shame that no one makes bearings designed for mtbs.
IMO my fish an chips have more grease in them than a new bearing, that's why I de-grease them from new and put my silicone grease in as it seems less prone to water and crap, from an engineering POV any bearings fitted in a dirty area, i.e to get wet or dirty, usually have grease ports fitted to purge the old grease out and has to be done on a regular basis.
If anyones interested, as i mentioned above my pro2 lasted 2 years or so, not 100% sure how long, on an 07 avalanche expert, the bike gets used for offroad weekend stuff and trips to the highlands etc in all weathers and for commuting. So i wasn't too fussed about replacing the bearings, these things need done every now and then imo, especially is i'm not one for doing a great deal of maintenance on the bike, i lube the drivetrain, i clean the bike every month or 3, and tune the thing up when it's needed, so i kinda expect failures to happen.. when i did replace the bearings though, they where failing apart, and 2 of them where completely destroyed, can't mind which ones. As for my riding stylem which may well be a factor, i'm not the greatest rider, i'm slow on the uphills, faster than my mates on the downhills(but i know that's relative) and i don't like my wheels to be any further than a foot off the ground, if even..so it takes a bit of abuse, but not overly so i'd reckon.
Most bearings are designed to run at 1000s rpm. Normally, fitted internally or in a less abusive environment than a mountain bike. They fit an amount of grease that works with the expected speed and heat specific to that application.
Mountain bike bearings don't spin that fast so wouldn't suffer if more grease were used. Due to the slower speeds, tighter seals wouldn't hurt either. That's basically what the enduro (real world cycling) bearings do and they do seem to last well.
If that's what Kaesae is offering, then it should make a difference. Even better if they're supplied to him dry with lose seals so there's no seal lifting and cleaning required. Also helps that the Enduro ones are ABEC 5.
How you ride doesn't matter IMO.
I don't think individual's experiences can really be compared either - one person's 2 years of riding could be completely different to the next.
All the failed bearings I have had **** all grease in them. TJ have you experimented on this - run ANY bearings with a pre-fill of grease?
cynic-al - Member
TJ any ACTUAL expert could do a study and get an answer or work it out from existing data.I don't accept that neither of us have any expertese.
If only mfrs pre-filled then we'd all be happy. A shame that no one makes bearings designed for mtbs.
My bearings are 100% pregreased in the factory, so I don't have to lift the seals, as for damaging seals when you remove them, on cheap bearings you will damage them, on top end bearings with the right tools and equipment you should be able to remove the seals and the old grease.
Onzadog - Member
Most bearings are designed to run at 1000s rpm. Normally, fitted internally or in a less abusive environment than a mountain bike. They fit an amount of grease that works with the expected speed and heat specific to that application.Mountain bike bearings don't spin that fast so wouldn't suffer if more grease were used. Due to the slower speeds, tighter seals wouldn't hurt either. That's basically what the enduro (real world cycling) bearings do and they do seem to last well.
If that's what Kaesae is offering, then it should make a difference. Even better if they're supplied to him dry with lose seals so there's no seal lifting and cleaning required. Also helps that the Enduro ones are ABEC 5.
As above, my bearing range that I designed are MTB specific bearings, they have very tough seals designed for ride on lawnmowers, they will take high velocity impacts from dirt, water and grass. They will easily deal with jet washer blasts and being submerged in water. Basically they are a bearing that is designed for extreme conditions and are specific to MTB applications.
As for lifting the seals and pregreasing, I would say that as long as you use a needle or a pin on the bearings inner race to leverage out the seal and don't damage it, you'll be fine.
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I've analyzed thousands of bearings.
They fail for 3 reasons.
Firstly the bearing rusts internally then collapses.
Secondly the bearing fills with dirt and crap including rust and seizes.
Thirdly the bearing is of cheap quality and wares out quickly due it's looser tolerances and cheaper materials also the build quality is inferior.
The trick to buying bearings is getting ones that are cost effective but also bearings that are designed to be used outdoors and won't leave you changing them all the time.
The cost in maintenance time off sets any benefit to be had from savings in the actual bearings purchase.
As above, my bearing range that I designed are MTB specific bearings, they have very tough seals designed for ride on lawnmowers, they will take high velocity impacts from dirt, water and grass. They will easily deal with jet washer blasts and being submerged in water. Basically they are a bearing that is designed for extreme conditions and are specific to MTB applications.
High velocity grass? bet that smarts a bit
I found that Hope Pro 2 front hubs with a 20mm through axle do require new bearings at least once a year if you are using the bike three times a week. I've had a 15mm through axle Pro 2 for a year and it has remained sweet...I think this is becauise the 15mm adaptor protect and support the bearings much more than the 20mm end caps.
Hope Pro2 rear hubs seem to last about one and a half to two years of similar use before they need bearing replacement (on a Marin Full Sus and a 303 and a 456). The pawl leaf springs seem to go sooner, maybe once a year which is diagnosed by a tell tale lack of clickiness.
For those singing the praises of XT...........yes, I have run a set of late 1990s XT hubs for six years with no problem other than regular hub servicing. New XTs have been a disaster for me....they constantly undo, no matter what I've done, and I know there are loads of similar problems out there with them.
I run jap bearings in my front hope hubs, bulbs or pro 2's, I find they will last a couple of years at least, I tend to remove the seals and then full them with expensive grease.
We will just have to see what we see, I've been looking into it for a while now, I think that if you're taking wheels bearings out. You should remove the seals and have a look inside.
Then you can let us know on this thread or a similar one what is happening inside the bearings.
A bike used that infrequently is not wearing them out, they're rusting because they're standing and the grease doesn't get around the bearings enough to prevent it.
As for not opening up bearings, SKF specifically say to lift of the seals and re-grease in extremely dirty conditions in order to extend the bearings life.
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=9_0_73
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=9_0_75
http://www.skf.com/portal/skf/home/products?maincatalogue=1&lang=en&newlink=9_0_1
Contrary to Kaesae, I'd lift the seal at the outer race edge, since this edge doesn't see any rotational movement, it should be more tolerant of any distortion/damage that might occur.
I've a Hope Bulb that eats bearings every few weeks. It's been back and forth for bearing replacements but still goes wobbly like clockwork.
It's not cleaning, for the front bearings seem to go on forever as does the bearings in my ProIIs.
Nice to see I'm not the only one.
do the bearings actually run smooth when they're fitted?
hope hubs are machined, not cast i understand, so as the cutting tool wears, the ID will reduce marginally. QC should pick that up, of course, but if the bearings are under too much compression as fitted they'll wear more quickly.
just a thought.
For people that have repeated, frequent, failures : how smooth are the bearings when they are new ?
I've seen tolerance issues with pro II rear axles which cause bearing side loading, which causes rapid bearing failure. Perhaps this is not completely uncommon ?
Science Officer it's much easier to lift seals off using the inner seal without distorting it.
That's for proving us right though 😀
I don't really find it any different TBH. I use the point of a stanly blade and up it comes.
IME bearing lubrication for mtb's is like chain lubrication. Do it frequently enough and you get significantly increased component life.
Scienceofficer - I can't see that in the links you provide - I only see it specifically saying that they are sealed for life and should not be washed out and regreased.
Can you point me to the relevant bit of the link?
(Sorry, posted this thread when preparing Mrs PPs bike to go out and
ride. Just got back and had dinner)
---------------------------------------
Is it possible there could be another cause?
No. Thyey're justy rubbish bearings and I've had enough of them. 2 pairs and one other front and onlt one of them has had the bearings last more then a year. Utter garbage.
ould it be the way you're cleaning it - jetwash, chemicals? or are the bearings misaligned?
No. None of those. Just rubbish bearings.
Pre fill the new bearings with grease. Kaesae is right.
You WHAT? Why, for God's sake, should the be necessary when the bearings in Hope XCs last 4 years + and for 50p I can service XTs once a year and they last even longer? Don't take the mickey.
've analyzed thousands of bearings.They fail for 3 reasons.
Firstly the bearing rusts internally then collapses.
Secondly the bearing fills with dirt and crap including rust and seizes.
Thirdly the bearing is of cheap quality and wares out quickly due it's looser tolerances and cheaper materials also the build quality is inferior.
You've missed No4
NOT UP TO THE JOB..
Hope Pro 2 Bearings on the left, Hope XC bearings on the right, as just taken out of my toolbox 2 minutes ago:
[url= http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5045/5252415552_7e1f0e11f0_o.jp g" target="_blank">
[url= http://www.flickr.com/photos/peter_atkin/5252415552/ ]iphone_pic[/url] by [url= http://www.flickr.com/people/peter_atkin/ ]PeterPoddy[/url], on Flickr
I've siad it before andf I'll repeat it again, Pro2 bearings are just underspecced, and the hubs are a compromise. Rubbiush.
Fly that up your flagpole and see if it flaps.
Wheels for sale. £140 posted. Pro 2 hubs, DT4.2 rims SS DB spokes and in good condition, but need new bearings.
Anybody wanna put their money where their mouth is?
Oh, if I've got the right bearings in stock I'll replace them for you, but I'm not buying any more 🙂
swap you for some cup an cone wheels?
My pro11 bearings last for ages. Had the wheels 3 years ish - second-hand but hardly used till I got them - thousands of miles use by me. one of five rear bearings failed, none in the front.
swap you for some cup an cone wheels?
Black 6 bolt XT hubs with black 717 or DT4.2 rims with black DB spokes?
(Which is what I should have bought her in the first pace but I was feeling flush. MISTAKE!)
In fact, I could just buy some Shimano hubs and rebuild the wheels, then sell the Pro 2 hubs for profit.
So scrub that. 🙂
I've used stock bearings and BETD bearings, the BETD ones lasted three weeks longer.
Hahaha! all those bearings look like cheap crap, you can't expect those to last any more than 6 to 12 months. the dimpled effect to the seals and the lack of a lip, they're rubbish.
You're lucky if they cost £1.50 to £2 each, probably 10x for a tenner.
Yes the 6000 2rs and 6001 2rs are larger bearings and should last longer, but the pro 2 is a lot more diverse and a lot easier to service than the bulb, xc or big un hubs!
Run good quality bearings and they will last a while run utter Shite and they will not!
As for everyone else, including the bike shops, have any of you checked the rear ends alignment, as in the wheel mounting brackets also the disc brakes.
I'm not having a go at anyone but a misaligned rear end and brake will cause pressure to be applied unevenly.
As for removing the seals on the outer edge, if the inner edge rotates then it has the least contact and thus largest amount of space between the seal and race, it is therefore easier to insert what ever you are using to remove the seal there. Once you leverage that inner part of the seal out the rest of the seal will follow.
Since the diameter of the inner seal lip is smaller it makes sense that less force will be required to leverage it out and a such it will be easier.
That said since I value learning over everything else, I just went through and tested what you said, I found it harder to remove the seal using your technique for the above reasons stated.
Don't use cheapo rubbish bearings. if it takes you 30 to 45 mins once a year to change them, how much will the extra hassle and time cost you over the long run.
😀
Peterpoddy, I will give you some bearings for free! , put them in see how you get on, give my bearings a go? 😉
Dude - if you have a pair for a Pro II front I would welcome the opportunity !
Hahaha! all those bearings look like cheap crap, you can't expect those to last any more than 6 to 12 months. the dimpled effect to the seals and the lack of a lip, they're rubbish.
Point missed. Sorry, but you have.
Got two sets of Hope Pro II's and bearings seem fine on mine, front and rear. Had to replace the bearings on a set of wheels i bought 2nd hand, but they've lasted 2 years since.
do you have the proper drifts/ hub supports?
my bearings last 2-3 times longer since i bought the tools.
I can't be arsed to read all the above, my Hope Pro III SP wheels have had one set of rear wheel bearings in 2.5 years, the wheels have had extensive use, several 24,12,8 hour races plus regular use throughout the the winters in the Bristol gloop and Welsh grit.
Seems fair to me.
I also had some Pro IIs for a couple of years that suffered similar abuse, I never had a bearing fail.