[Closed] Hope brakes

Yes. The E4s are substantially more powerful than the X2s. Given your size I’d probably be going 203/183.

Yes got the rotors - normally run 180/180 then stick a 203 on for big mtns.

Some say great modulation, others say lacking in power. I'm in the latter camp. Can't say my saints have ever leaked. Worth trying before you splash a ton of cash on them.

And what’s the difference between e4 & v4?

E4s have all small pistons. V4s have two larger pistons and two smaller ones. Larger pistons = more force.

I’d go V4 at that weight and coming from Shimano where you’ll be used to a strong / grabby on and off type feel. Even then the V4’s will prob feel a little less powerful if you have ‘decent’ Shimano brakes.

You may as well go V4, the different in price is about £10-20 per brake, if that.

Properly set up they don't have the immediate 'power' of shimano brakes, but the more you pull, the more your eyeballs will pop out.

I have E4's on a jeffsy 29, I'm around 11 stone and ride similar sort of stuff. I already had the brakes and they are better than the guides that came on the bike but if I was buying again I'd defo go for V4's

I've got E4's and they're nice things and they feel good but the outright stopping power is nothing to shout about.

I'd go with V4 if I was buying again.

I'm about the same weight as you if not a bit heavier. I run E4 on all my bikes with 200/180 rotors for riding hard in the Peak and big mountain holidays.

Having said that, most of the weight difference between E4 and V4 is due to braided stainless hose over Kevlar.

Also worth noting that while Hope still offer 203 and 183 rotors, they recommend 200 and 180 to "future proof yourself.

Tyres have got alot bigger since E4's first came out and therefore more grip available to come with additional braking 'power' - all brakes are as powerful as you want them to be, just depends on how hard you want to pull the lever...they're just amplifiers really, so with modern larger tyres on modern big enduro bikes V4's are probably more suitable. When I bought my E4's my understanding was the V4's were for DH and E4's for trail/enduro. E4's still work fine..never lacked stopping power and I'm no lightweight and neither is my bike. But can be fatiguing on longer runs and uplift days and find myself having to employ 2 finger braking instead of 1.

Edit: also I think V4's can take the vented disk rotors. The pinnacle in bling wether you need it or not.

Here’s Hopes take on it.

PDF link

I went with 203/180mm V4's on my 150mm 29er Jeffsy, more than enough power for the biggest descents and still enough modulation for tame trails.

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If you had V2s last time I would go V4 this time. Much more compatible in terms of power. E4s are ace for UK use but once you are in bigger mountains with lifts they can struggle if you are pushing on and don't stop much. They will also last for ever. First rate bits of kit.

Can I throw a crazy notion in ? 🙂

When you look at the caliper, its effectively two halves, bridged together on two points, and one of those bridges has a hole drilled down the middle for the fluid to go from one side to the other in continuous passage.
When you apply the brake the pistons push against the rotor and attempt to push the two sides apart.
Hope are using some cnc tech to take metal off here or there to lighten it, not sacrificing strength so they say.
But its still only those two bridges of alloy that are preventing the caliper from flexing.

I would think the long e4 caliper is going to exert more pushing force and would if any point was going to flex, this would be the cause.
That being the case i would think a caliper like the V2 which is a bit beefier on those bridges sections would flex less if at all, and i would say less flex is less braking. Not an engineer so cant know the ins and outs but would flexing not lead to fading ?.
I think something like the V2 with the beefier caliper body and larger piston would be a better bet. The latest stuff seems to err on the side of trimming micrograms, but at an unknown cost.
Plus I see V2's hold their price well in 2nd hand, which is a sign they are well liked.

Nah, more pistons = more power, due to more braking area. In the case of the both dual and 4 piston calipers having the same braking area, more pistons will give more power. Simples.

I doubt there's much flex in the Hope calipers seeing as they're CNC machined from a single block - in motorbikes the best calipers are often monoblock calipers, again made from a single piece rather than 2 halves bolted together.

“would flexing not lead to fading ?“

Flexing will affect the feel and power of the brake but it’ll be consistent with applied force at the lever, it won’t vary down a long descent as the brake heats up.

I have V4 with 203mm rotors on my Levo and E4 with 183mm rotors on my 150mm 27.5 hardtail (both with Tech 3 levers). They feel similarly strong, as the bigger discs and calipers make up for the Levo’s bigger wheels, much greater weight and ability to carry a ton of speed.

For the tiny extra weight and cost of the V4 I’d go with them. The modulation is so good that they’ll never feel too powerful.

My take on it: (not an engineer)

In theory the size of the pad doesn't matter since although there's more area the pressure (force per unit area) is less. However there's something else going on. Aside from overall caliper and fluid temperature (which takes a while to accumulate) the temperature at the disc/pad interface is, as I'm sure I've read that gasses generated by vaporising pad material on a really hot pad/disc interface reduce friction. So from that standpoint a larger pad is significant. My old V2s are massively better after a 100m of braking than my Mono Minis despite being almost identical in design just larger all round. If V4s are an evolution of V2s then I want some.

I have Shimano XT on one bike and Hope Mono Mini on another. Shimano feel sharper just riding about but when you really need the brakes to work well i.e. when stopping from high speed on a steep slope, they are both effectively limited by the pad contact temperature and consequently are both pretty much the same because the pads are similar size (as are the discs I run).

Pads are very susceptible to slight contamination from all sorts of things, so if you feel that Hope stop better than Shimano or vice versa it's probably that.

I have been running a set of zee’s for about 4 years now and other than replacing levers due to crashing they have been faultless. Pistons are starting to get sticky now now though so I’m thinking about a set of hopes. People either love them or hate them though and it’s a big chunk of change to potentially wish I bought something else!!
I’ve seen tests that measure the power output of brakes and the hopes have power is it just the modulation that confuses people? Also if that’s the case can you just wind the bite point out to feel like they bite quicker?

I think there are a lot of people that confuse bite with power.

I like Hope stuff generally, and I'm all for independent engineering companies. I've got a Hope stem, it's nice...For all that they look good and seem really well designed and put together at the factory...I just have this nagging thought that they just should be a bit better than they actually are.

My benchmark for any quality brake* is either Shimano Saint or SRAM Code: both utterly reliable, simple, hugely powerful, parts available everywhere, relatively inexpensive.  For any brake to get onto a bike over a Saint/Code,  it should be significantly better, and Hope V2 is what; £50-£70 more expensive?...From what I can see, you're getting colour choice....and little else.

* I reserve the right to be vague about what I define as "quality" to an infinite variable notion of qualitiness

For balance I wonder if V4s are overkill unless that bike is almost entirely for uplift stuff?

I'm approaching 15 st in riding gear and run X2s on my hardtail for local more xc stuff and M4 front/X2 rear on the spitfire - used at trail centres and the occasional alps/BPW.
Never run out of braking apart form once which was my fault as they were overdue a bleed/new fluid.

I do fancy upgrading the bouncer to full E4 and cascading the M4 to the hardtail but that's just brakes N+1 at work really.

Nixie and molgrips both make points with which I agree.

Shimano's initially 'feel' much stronger, but ultimately, when you're having to brake really hard, my experience is that the (in my experience XTs) really don't offer any more power.

I'm a huge fat bloke, and have had more issues with XTs (heat, fading etc) in the alps than I have had on my now 11yr old tech m4s - which BTW were in alps service for many trips last summer and did just fine.

I will admit though, the Hope V2s were the best brakes I have ever used, but I think I had to have v2 specific discs?

I've got X2 on my bike and they're more than adequate for hammering down Alpine descents.
If you brake properly (i.e. don't drag them all the way down) then they don't get overly hot.

“For balance I wonder if V4s are overkill unless that bike is almost entirely for uplift stuff?“

If the V4 were harder to modulate then I’d agree. For a lighter rider doing more XC stuff then the convenience of the X2 would be nice, as you don’t have four pistons which occasionally need to be coaxed back into alignment. But the benefit of four pistons is you get better modulation as well as more power, so once you’ve gone down that route the V4’s extra oomph vs the E4 seems all pro and no con.

If I’d known I was going to sell my other full-sus then I’d have swapped my E4 brakes onto the Levo and kept the M4 on my hardtail and I’m sure I’d have been happy with them - they’re not short of power with just a 183mm disc.

I had a set of e4 brakes, but found them really lacking in power even compared to older 2 pot shimano xt's.

I liked the build quality and all the adjustments, and the levers felt really nice to use, but there was just no ultimate power there, I didn't notice it too much in the UK, but when you go somewhere with much longer downhills I really noticed the lack of power. I tried various types of pads, from the proper hope pads to uber bike race matrix, these improved things a little, but still nowhere near to what I would consider good enough.

I now have sram code rsc and they're brilliant, way better than the hopes. So much more powerful, ie requires significantly less finger effort for more retardation.

I haven't tried hope v4, but to be honest with the price of the sram codes I wouldn't even bother with the hopes.

I think there are a lot of people that confuse bite with power.

^^

Shimano have the servo wave system which doubles the lever/clamping force (leverage ratio) in the initial movement, so it feels like you're pulling twice as hard as a brake without it.

To a lot of people that equals more power. I'm OK with Deore level shimano brakes as they don't have enough power to make the initial bite too much, but XT's, on a wet, slippery trail, when you want to feather the front brake going into a fast corner? Not for me.

I think you're either a shimano or a sram/hope brake person, both have their advantages.

Here's the V4 in black for £160, same place has the E4 for £149 - £11 difference per brake, so V4's are a no brainer.

https://www.rushcycles.co.uk/m63b0s528p5954/HOPE-Tech-3-V4-Standard-Hose-In-Black

I was surprised to learn just how much difference brake choice can make to your bike's performance; there's a tricky steep and slimy chute I built that I'd never managed to ride cleanly, because the wheels would always lock up and I'd lose traction; tried swapping tyres, thinking that'd help, but the same thing kept happening

That was with Shimano XTs, which in the majority of situations, give plenty of power and feel.

However, swapped to Hope E4s and the extra modulation meant I cleared it cleanly 1st time.

Kitted up for riding I must be over 18st, I certainly don't hang about and I've ridden in the Alps with E4s with no issues.

E4s been great for me & plenty of power even dragging them all the way down the mega course!

First time I did the mega was with old school minis , that was a lesson in braking management

Anyway stuck some galfa green pads in your hopes for added initial bite

Totally agree with Nixie with respect to bite and power. Hope have almost linear, progressive power. The more you pull the lever, the greater the force. Shimano move the pad a lot in the initial stroke and then again have linear power. The problem is that the initial bite might well be on the initial stroke and thus they feel really powerful, but it's a sudden, large application of force. In essence, the brake lever feel of a Shimano Brake is like the brakes on a French car. massively over servoed and tends to lead to very abupt braking when applied, especially in haste. In contrast, BMW brakes feel initially weak to anyone used to a Citroen, but overall power is greater, but requires more force to get more power.

I was going to make that comparison, shimano servo wave (and to a lesser degree, Sram swinglink) are like a highly servoed car brake, you breathe on the pedal and you nearly go through the windscreen. Whereas hope brakes are like a non servoed track car with 6 pot calipers and huge discs. Not much initial bite but once they're warm and you give a proper shove on the pedal they'll make all your insides move to the front of your body... 😁

Someone has made the point about shimano "parts available everywhere" - Not sure I always understood them to be disposable but I do know that it is one of the major benefits of hope. All parts available and the option of sending it back to them for a service/rebuild which includes a fresh set of pads which makes it pretty good value.

Been said a million times on this forum but equalizing the pads properly really does make an immense amount of difference to the feeling of power from Hope brakes.

I now have sram code rsc and they’re brilliant, way better than the hopes. So much more powerful, ie requires significantly less finger effort for more retardation.

I haven’t tried hope v4, but to be honest with the price of the sram codes I wouldn’t even bother with the hopes.

You pays your money and makes your choice. I'm happy to pay the extra for Hope and have their backup. I don't have an issue with SRAM but if you have a problem with their gear better to just chuck it away and buy again as you're farting in the breeze to try to get any support or interest from them. But for comparison to Codes you need to look at V4's looking at relative piston sizes so no wonder the E4's felt like they lacked 'power'.

When you apply the brake the pistons push against the rotor and attempt to push the two sides apart.
Hope are using some cnc tech to take metal off here or there to lighten it, not sacrificing strength so they say.
But its still only those two bridges of alloy that are preventing the caliper from flexing.

This applies to all brake callipers. One of the reasons why with alloy monoblock calipers you tend to have multi-pistons...smaller pistons generate less force, so having more smaller pistons in a line you can spread the overall force over a longer length leading to less localised stress in the calliper material and therefore less flex. Also machining from solid out of a forged billet will lead to a stronger product than the cast calliper bodies SRAM make theirs from in order to get the high production volumes. But I doubt that calliper spreading is an issue in either case. You're just not generating enough from our fingers.

There is no real technology to callipers at all. It really is all about piston area..you generate the pressure in the hydraulic fluid with your finger which then acts on the piston and depending on the total area of the piston face you get a resultant force. More piston area = more force for the same applied pressure. E4's have less piston area than V4's therefore less force applied to the pads for a given pressure. And that's it. That is as clever as callipers get. The brake system including the lever, hose and disk/pad interaction all in combination gives you the 'feel' of the system.

But in any case bikes are heavier now than they used to be and sport bigger tyres so I think the latest crop of enduro/aggressive trail bikes have outgrown E4's so just go to V4's. As someone has already pointed out...there is little or no downside to being 'over braked'. And while you're at it slap on the biggest disks you can too.

Enduro mag did a lab test on a bunch of brakes a couple of years ago. Lab testing doesn't necessarily follow expectations in this area. For example the Formula Cura 2 outperforming both the E4 and V4 in all metrics here, for half the cost.

Results here

I love my e4.

They didn’t feel as powerful initially as the xt set they replaced.

In a year and a half they have been bled a couple of times and had a couple of sets of pads. That includes a week and a half in whistler. No wandering bite point or lack of power or needing a bleed midweek.

The only thing stopping me putting a set on the hardtail is price.

I’m on 200mm rotors front and 180mma rear

And in another test, V4's beat both the Code RSC and Formula Cura

https://off.whip.live/bike/vital-mtb-Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-DH-Brakes,2152

More piston area = more force for the same applied pressure.

It doesn't work like that. The force at the pad is the same as the force at the lever, regardless of area. Having larger pads reduces the pressure at the pad though (the same force is spread out over a larger area) and as above I think this changes the dynamics of how the pad and disc interact.

Re getting spares - you'll see me talking about my Mono Minis and V2s - they are 13 years old now. I snapped the lever clamp on one, due to overtightening - and I got a whole new lever body from CRC. I recently replaced the caliper seals and they feel like new brakes again. Cost £5 and a bleed.

Re V2s and special discs - they were available with vented rotors, which were thicker - which is why I think Hope introduced the variable bite point on them so that you could still run them with standard rotors as I have been doing.

And in another test, V4’s beat both the Code RSC and Formula Cura

https://off.whip.live/bike/vital-mtb-Vital-MTB-Face-Off-The-Best-DH-Brakes,2152/a >

I've read that test, and used it to help me decide when I last bought brakes, however I'm not a huge fan of how Vital assign a 'power' rating purely off rider opinion, and assign values and weightings to metrics based off 'feel' i.e. subjective testing. Saint and Code get 10/10 for power, yet how they determined this does not really provide a reliable comparison between brakes.

I do however think the individual reviews were good, and would use that test to make a decision based on the reported experience with the brakes and how that matches your preferences, rather than following their slightly silly 1,2,3 rating based on numbers with little foundation (bar the weight and price scores).

FWIW, I probably would have bought V4s over Curas had they not been 2x the price at the time (£360 vs £180). The long-term support and parts availability of Hope can't be argued with. Plus they come in pretty colours that you can match to your spoke nipples.

"The force at the pad is the same as the force at the lever, regardless of area."

No it isn't. The power at the pad and the work done at the pad are both the same as at the lever but the force is multiplied but the distance moved and speed of movement both reduced. That's how hydraulic brakes work!

More piston area = more force for the same applied pressure.

It doesn’t work like that. The force at the pad is the same as the force at the lever, regardless of area. Having larger pads reduces the pressure at the pad though (the same force is spread out over a larger area) and as above I think this changes the dynamics of how the pad and disc interact.

Eh? Not true at all.. you're getting things mixed up. Pad area is not piston area, pistons in the calliper and pistons in the master cylinder will have different effect.

So - pressure of the fluid in the system will depend on the strength of hand / leverage at the lever and the size of the piston in the master cylinder (bigger area of the piston will mean lower pressure). For an Tech 3 lever, this would be the same irrespective of the callipers you've got attached.

Now force on the pads will be the area of the calliper pistons multiplied by the pressure of the fluid. It is related to force at the lever but won't be the same. Bigger pistons at the calliper won't reduce the pressure in the system (but will mean you'll need to pull the levers more as you need to displace more fluid to extend the pistons).

Pressure of the pads against the disc will be the force pushing the pads divided by their area (well kind of- they'll not be rigid so the pressure if going to be higher near the pistons and less away from them).

Yes that's basically what I was trying to say, my comment was ambiguous.

But my point is that bigger pads don't create more braking force directly, because the larger are of the pad is cancelled out by the fact the pressure is lower (which is what your last para says). But the lower pressure creates more favourable conditions at the pad surface.

It's the size of the pistons that affect the force on the pads though - saying the force on the pad is the same as the force on the lever is incorrect. V4 with larger calliper pistons will exert more force on the pads.

Friction between the pad and disc (which is what will be evident as the braking power) will be some complex function of pressure, area, pad material, disc material, temperature, effects of any contaminants etc...

Pad size will directly affect pressure, area.. and indirectly temperature and maybe others. I've no idea what will result in better braking other than an observation that downhill brakes have larger area pads than XC ones so maybe you could make inference that larger pads are more powerful.

Don't forget, the coeficient of friction of various different makes/types of pad will vary the braking force for any given pressure applied.....................and that's about all I can remember from my 38 years gone tech college days.