They’ll have more power than you want, don’t suppose they will be able to sell any 🙂
I really don’t understand the Hope love. Someone in our group recently asked on the WhatsApp chat if anyone knew any tips for setting up Hopes. I held back from suggesting he throw them in the bin and buy Shimano. I rode with him this weekend and his his brakes were frankly terrifying.
I know Hope can be rebuilt, and Shimano can fail, but when they do fail they’re cheap as chips and supply is plentiful.
Shimano can fail, but when they do fail they’re cheap as chips and supply is plentiful.
#Brexit 😉
So just send more stuff to landfill then? I have friends who’ve had the same Hope brakes for years and if anything has catastrophically failed it has been repaired. They also work fine too. Good modulation and powerful enough for most riding. Well made brakes that do the job well basically
We have one bike with Shimano brakes in this house. The others are Hope and they work beautifully, require almost no maintenance, a set of pads once in a blue moon (same shape of pads as 5 or 10 years ago too), and have a wonderfully progressive feel.
We have one set of Tech X2s that must be 14 years old. Still the current pad shape. Still working fine. Been to the alps a few times. Enough power no repairs needed.
Shimanos are cheap I suppose. Though their discs are made of cheese - don’t use a Shimano disc with a Hope brake or it’s life is best measured in hours.
If anyone wants to take them off my hands for a nice set of secondhand Tech X2 or E4 brakes then PM me.
I have hopes on all my bikes - single finger powerful braking and very reliable. some sets are 20 years old
I think most folk don't set them up right - its really simple to do but its a two stage process - centralise the caliper then the pads.
Literally thousands of miles out of pads as well - using hopes own of course
MY new bike is coming with hope everything.
Personally, I choose Shimano over Hope every time. I had Hope years ago and they were crap especially somewhere like the Alps. They may have improved over the years I don't know, but I have never had any issues with Shimano.
I do like the lever though blade though. Much comfier to use than shimano.
In my experience Shimano are fine unless overheated, after that point they become troublsome.
My Hope E4s are way more consistent and can take a beating.
Not sure why anyone would struggle to set them up either.
I still have Shimano brakes on a couple of bikes but I don't push them very hard.
Those who complain about lack of power with E4s, is it just a lack of hand strength?
As long as they come in a range of garish and hideous anodised colours, hope fans will be all over them. They seem to value this above actually braking performance.
Black or silver for me with the added bonus that the same thing happens each time I pull the lever.
Loving the "Hope-hate"!
If you don't like them, don't use them.
I'm happy with mine. I was happy with my Shimano SLX's until they died and I had to replace the caliper because they cant be repaired. Was still happy with them until they started weeping oil onto the pads/rotors.
So I replaced them with Hopes. Prefer the modulation and feel to the more on/off natire of the Shimanos.
Currently running Deores on my new bike. Already had one warranty swap on the calliper as it was pissing out fluid from mthe calliper join straight away.
I'll be swapping the hopes onto it as I prefer the feel and the power is fine for me and my riding (I'm around 72kg in kit so not a bog unit).
If it helps, mine are black?
I know Hope can be rebuilt, and Shimano can fail, but when they do fail they’re cheap as chips and supply is plentiful.
Oh!
My!
Sides!!! 😂😂😂
PMSL
Seriously though... I'm no Hope fanboi, mostly they're pretty underpowered and I really don't like their previously very angular lever shapes. Hope do know how to create modulation though, something Shimano have always totally lacked. Also, the new XCR lever feels very nice I must say, and I'd be keen to try the new Tech4 lever before writing it off... As for Shimano... Until they give their brakes a master cylinder reservoir large enough to cope with more than 50% pad wear, until they fix the wandering bite point issues etc... I wouldn't spend my own money on them, nor would I recommend anybody else to either!
The black / silver Hopes are the better ones. Garish colours are just there to wind up the Shimanistas.
PS - those that say Hope are underpowered, have they tried them with the pads that last longer than Shimano discs, or with one of the softer pads? Different pads can give different characteristics, but the modulation is always there.
I quite like the (whisper it) £6 Superstar Kevlar pads. But that’s just me.
its interesting how marmite they are.
If I can lock the wheel with a single finger pull then surely thats enough power?
If there is not that much power then something is wrong.
I would love to try a bike with these "underpowered" hopes to see if they really are different to the ones I have in feel and power. I think its either cheap pads, badly set up or cold polished pads but never having ridden an "underpowered" hope set I really do not know
Mission accomplished 😀
All you fanbois did click the link and see that Hope are bringing out a new lever offering a claimed increase in braking power? Not that anyone could possibly need it.
I can lock up my Shimano brakes with one finger and I can also do it with my Sram brakes.
You really don't like anyone to have a different opinion to you do you TJ. If they do you have to criticise them such as suggesting people don't know how to set brake up.
Still have my original hope minis working great on my bike. I'd try other brands but these won't break.
Kuco - apologies if it came over like that.
I am just puzzled by this as the description of underpowered hopes does not apply to the half dozen sets I have and was pondering why this is so.
Hope do outline a different set up proceedure to shimano
The only set of Hope brakes I ever liked were the C2's on an xc bike I had. I'm not a Hope hater as I have several sets of wheels with Hope hubs.
I am just puzzled by this
Like if you’d never seen colour TV you could think black and white was the best thing ever?
My point is that if I can easily lock a wheel with a single finger pull they are not underpowered - and I have ridden bikes with other brakes including shimano. I hated the shimano set. Wooden grabby and less power than my hopes.
So some folk find them underpowered and I do not disbelieve them so I am trying to work out why some sets are underpowered and some are not.
thats all
Do we need to do this on a weekly basis?
Yes. It's fun to read
Do we need to do this on a weekly basis?
Sorry, I knew exactly what I was doing and did it anyway.
Bored and it's Sunday evening with bugger all on the telly.
All you fanbois did click the link and see that Hope are bringing out a new lever offering a claimed increase in braking power?
I reckon it will be an increased piston diameter, possibly shoving more fluid down the pipe.
But at least hope work to redesign, shimano have been using pretty much the same lever for 20+ years.
I reckon it will be an increased piston diameter, possibly shoving more fluid down the pipe.
Nice try but I’m not biting 😀
learn how to bleed your brakes, irregardless of brand.
also, servowave wandering bite point?
Never really understood the Hope brake hate. Or the claims of being underpowered.
I've (too many) pairs of Shimano and Hope brakes. Yes, they do feel different but on balance I'd choose the Hopes although the Shimanos are also excellent. That's on performance, serviceability and aesthetics. On the performance, for a given amount of stopping power at the wheel you have to pull the lever more firmly but that's not a lack of power, just a different user interface. I'd say you need that difference to give you the range of usable modulation. The Shimano 'feel' is a lighter touch at the lever but much more digital in operation. I think people just mistake that for more power when what they really mean is they don't have to squeeze so hard.
I didn't used to get the Hope love, but over time they've definitely got better while frankly a lot of competitors have got worse. Looks a lot cleaner than the current range
Don't like the adjusters though, I know people like tool-free for some reason but it just puts more metal and complexity in the part and those look pretty exposed. Like seriously, how often do you want to adjust these things that you need to have 2 dials sticking out of the bike on each side?
Mission accomplished 😀
Well played. got me you barsteward. Its not really sport tho conning me - more like shooting fish in a barrel 🙂
Nice try but I’m not biting 😀
Actually this is the hook here.
But at least hope work to redesign, shimano have been using pretty much the same lever for 20+ years.
.
People talking about brake a or b being magically 'better' or 'more powerful', all things being equal is a little like someone arguing that their wheel is more round than their mates.
You can:
Increase pad contact area
Increase lever angle (bigger rotors)
Increase the size of the piston
Increase the leverage thrown by a lever (but only so far as shimanos cammed servo wave - which is shit - shows).
Very little of this has anything to do with the brand. Think about it. It's some fluid, a plunger pushed by a lever, and a piston pushing on a disc. What magic can you really inject?
Get something that you can fix.
People talking about brake a or b being magically ‘better’ or ‘more powerful’, all things being equal is a little like someone arguing that their wheel is more round than their mates
What about people that have owned both brake a and brake b, and know that brake a is better because they've actually used both for an extended period of time? its nothing to do with magic, just one is better for the task at hand, like you can get good wheels and better wheels, but they're both still round.
Pick a brake brand
be a dick about it.
Very little of this has anything to do with the brand. Think about it. It’s some fluid, a plunger pushed by a lever, and a piston pushing on a disc. What magic can you really inject?
So why does every brand cock it up so badly? MTB brakes are crap all round.
So why does every brand cock it up so badly? MTB brakes are crap all round.
Cheer up, You may have heard Hope have a new Tech 4 lever on the horizon and just maybe it will be the brake that has it all?
a little like someone arguing that their wheel is more round than their mates.
You have obviously not seen my mates' bikes. My wheels are rounder. And straighter.
Bite/grab != Power. Sadly lots of people fail to get this.
MTB brakes are crap all round.
Really? why d'you think so? I mean, I know a good chunk of threads on here are "How do I fix this brake problem" but given that there are literally millions of perfectly well functioning brakes out in the real world, I think "crap all round" is a bit wide of the mark, no? I mean personally I've never had an issue with any brakes I've ever owned, and that's obviously going to sway my opinion, and some have been better than others, but mechanically, they've all worked as they should from Hope, Shimano and SRAM. Given how light and compact and powerful they are now, "Crap" seems a bit harsh.
Bite/grab != Power. Sadly lots of people fail to get this.
It's like cheap over servo-assisted brakes that 'feel' powerful because they bite as soon as you breathe on the brake pedal, vs a set of non servo assisted 6 pot callipers. I know which I'd rather have on a track car.
Also, more power is (almost) never a bad thing, a bloke with a 500bhp car doesn't say no to an extra 100bhp... 😀
I probably won't buy but only because my tech 4 V4's are perfectly fine.
I probably won’t buy but only because my tech 4 V4’s are perfectly fine.
Quite likely I will be tempted to get some for my E4s if it looks like they offer a genuine improvement and I have cash burning a hole. This is despite the fact that my E4s are perfectly fine, just not as good as some of my other brakes
Very little of this has anything to do with the brand. Think about it. It’s some fluid, a plunger pushed by a lever, and a piston pushing on a disc. What magic can you really inject?
With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.
Those little details of design can make a big difference to performance. Probably the biggest design issue is that they are operated by human hands which puts lots of constraints on the lever and the master cyclinder design.
I have more sets of shimano brakes sat useless in drawers with either jammed levers or calipers which leak fluid all over the pads than I do do fully functioning hopes which are being used on various bikes with no issues. Think I'll stick with the hopes 🙂.
MTB brakes are crap all round.
wait what?
of all the moving parts on both my bikes, the (hope) brakes cause the least amount of worry. Change pads when worn, and they go years without maintainence. I've had the rear brake serviced once after 3.5 years of use.
for comparison, in the last 6 months I've changed suspension bearings, hub bearings, adjusted the gears twice, serviced the fork, trued the rear wheel... to say nothing about droppers!
I previously had shimano, fine when new, got that "wooden" feeling at some point on an alps trip, nveer recovered. And I'd be lucky to get a year out of a set of rotors.
And before that, Avids, which would fail if you turned the bike upside down, and would randomply pull to the bar mid descent.
Bite/grab != Power. Sadly lots of people fail to get this.
The problem is that a brake that has good power at high speed cannot have good low-speed modulation, and vice-versa. The first disk brakes I had were Hayes HFXs, which were the mainstay of DH racing 20 years ago. I ran them with an 8" front rotor and metallic pads, they were ferociously powerful but had terrible modulation. The first time I rode with them, I fell off in a tight corner because my little dab on the brakes brought me to a screeching stop.
After that, Shimano came out with Deore (2-pot) and XT (4-pot) hydros. They had much better modulation than the Hayes and basically put Hayes out of business.
People who think that current brakes are crap really should try riding some bikes from the 90s. I've used Hayes, Avid, and Shimano hydros. They all work well when they're set up and bleed properly. They can all be a bit tricky to bleed sometimes, especially rear brakes, and sticky pistons are an occasional problem for all of them. Once they are set up properly, they just work fine.
With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.
it is for me. easy wheel locking or OTB even on tarmac with sticky tyres
Quite likely I will be tempted to get some for my E4s if it looks like they offer a genuine improvement and I have cash burning a hole. This is despite the fact that my E4s are perfectly fine, just not as good as some of my other brakes
The other issue is I have V4's on 2 bikes, so would need 2 sets, couldn't be doing with mis matched brakes! 😀
I previously had shimano, fine when new, got that “wooden” feeling at some point on an alps trip, nveer recovered.
Glazed pads would be my first guess.
Avids, which would fail if you turned the bike upside down, and would randomply pull to the bar mid descent.
This happens when you have air in the master cylinder reservoir. They have been underfilled and/or not bled properly. This can happen to any hydro brake that has air in the master cylinder reservoir.
With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.
I've had a couple of trips OTB on dry roads when cars turned in front of me. The limiting factor for rear brakes is grip, for fronts it's either tyre grip off-road or going OTB on-road.
it is for me. easy wheel locking or OTB even on tarmac with sticky tyres
You can put the pads in backwards in truck and still have enough brake power to stop a truck. (I know this because the company i worked for had to change pad design to stop fitters acidentally putting them in backwards)
Compared to off road surfaces tarmac is a much more predictable braking surface. Which is another major design constraint of mtb brake design. It is no good claiming your brakes are crap if you don't have the correct tires for surface you are trying to brake on.
One of the key points which you metioned earlier is setting up the brake properly. The running clearance between the pad and the disc makes a very significant difference to how well the brake works. Automotive calipers can float which helps this. MTB calipers don't which means it is even more important to get it right.
I’ve had a couple of trips OTB on dry roads when cars turned in front of me. The limiting factor for rear brakes is grip, for fronts it’s either tyre grip off-road or going OTB on-road.
Front brakes do way more work, its why older cars used to have discs on the front and drums rear. the limting factor of any brake is always tire grip.
I rode with him this weekend and his his brakes were frankly terrifying.
There's definitely an issue with them, in that case. Do you really think we'd all be riding around with brakes that don't work? We aren't all that stupid.
I have Hope and Shimano on my two most used MTBs. The Shimano feel sharper, but that's not important - what's important is when you are going fast down something steep and need to stop as quickly as possible. This depends on heat buildup at the pad, and the two sets of brakes I have both perform the same in this respect.
I think that Hopes can suffer from micro-leaks of fluid maybe, as they are somehow more susceptible to contamination. When I clean my bike I put a squirt of bike cleaner in the caliper and hose it out, this keeps everything running sharp. But before I did this there were issues with contamination, although I am talking 20 years ago now. But Shimano aren't immune to this, I had to do it on them before yesterday's ride.
Oh and my Hopes are Mono Minis from 2007. Recently changed the caliper seal because I could, because the parts were available. That makes them pretty cheap.
it is for me. easy wheel locking or OTB even on tarmac with sticky tyres
This is also misleading since it's not the most important usage cycle for hard braking.
I think that if you don't clean your brakes they become contaminated, they get worse, and you don't necessarily notice.
Front brakes do way more work, its why older cars used to have discs on the front and drums rear. the limting factor of any brake is always tire grip.
Also not grabbing the brake leading to instant lock up. As more weight transfer happens (especially on tarmac) the bigger the tyre contact patch and the more grip you have. That's one of the first things you learn when riding a motorbike, the same applies to cycles on the road and off road. The rear brake is just a passenger under proper heavy braking.
the limting factor of any brake is always tire grip.
On an MTB, it's fairly easy to OTB in an emergency stop on road or on steep descents in the dry. In that case, stability is the limiting factor because you have more front tyre grip than you can use. This doesn't happen in a car because their center of mass is lower and they have a much longer wheelbase. On an MTB in wet or loose conditions, tyre grip will give way before you OTB. In that case, the limiting factor is tyre grip.
The first guy in my riding group to get disk brakes bought a DH bike with Hayes HFXs, but had them set up U.S. style. Another guy was keen to try them and tried to do a big rear wheel skid in the carpark, not realizing the brakes were reversed. He just grabbed a handful of front brake and popped straight over the bars, looked very painful. That big grippy DH tyre did not lock up, it just gripped and gripped.
“ With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.”
Really?!! On both my bikes it’s dead easy to skid the rear and if I just yank on the front I’ll go over the bars if the grip is good or I’ll skid out. I don’t believe I’m the only rider with good brakes and finger strength.
HOUSE!
Pick a brake brand
be a dick about it.
See also computers, phones and sundry other modern consumer items.
I'm not a Hope fan and especially hated the Tech 2 level, but I bought a bike that had Tech 3 X2s on it and they were just bloody lovely to use compared to my XTRs (m988 and M9020). Yes, they didn't have the outright power, but I can just pull a little harder, rather than be overservoed. I fully intended to sell them, but given how nice they felt and given that I'd gone through 4 callipers in 2 years (3x XTR, 1 BR785) and was just waiting for the others to die. I swapped them all. I agree that they're fiddly to setup right, I agree that bleeding them is a PITA, I agree that they're expensive and lacking immediate power, but they are nicer to use, and completely unambiguous in operation. Something you absolutely want in a brake!
it'd be ace if these new levers brought their performance up to be comparable with sram code rsc. I'd have a pair like a shot. Problem is that you just cant trust any reviews as braking performance is so subjective (as proven by this and every other hope brake thread) .
I guess if the hope fanboys start saying they're too grabby then that would be a good sign....
Really?!! On both my bikes it’s dead easy to skid the rear and if I just yank on the front I’ll go over the bars if the grip is good or I’ll skid out.
I'm not sure I could skid the front on either of my bikes, Hope or Shimano. I could go OTB though if I just sat there like a sack of spuds and didn't get my weight back. But that movement is so instinctive I'm not sure I could actually brake hard without doing it.
I’m not sure I could skid the front on either of my bikes, Hope or Shimano.
Saints, the only brake i could lock up the back wheel with.
Actually my favourite was the C2. Immense power, just not suited for long runs, but outwith dh thats uncommon. 1" pistons and a solid non flexible lever.
Well I’ve ridden SRAM, admittedly not since the original Code, and they were ok initially but maintenance heavy with a habit of needing a bleed before they’d work.
I rode the old Hope Mono Minis and they were no better than ok.
I generally ride Hope X2, M4 or E4 these days (variety of different levers on them) and I like them. Very dependable. Would I like more power? In a brake with great modulation, yes of course, because I get to choose whether I use it. Do I need more power? No, not really.
I recently rode Shimano 6000 2 pots. No more power than an X2 and less feel. Quickly bought some Hopes for that bike.
Kept the 6000s and my son put them on his parts bin bike. He doesn’t like them as much as the ten year old M4s or newish X2s he had been using. Described it as you put them, the brake comes on, you pull a bit more and nothing more happens. I think he means, where my modulation gone?
Others will like the Shimano digital feel. And I hear SRAM brakes are not as temperamental as when I last had them.
Saints, the only brake i could lock up the back wheel with
Really? 😳
May I recommend some grip strengthening exercises.😉
bleeding them is a PITA
Reverse bleed works really well and is probably the easiest bleed on any brake.
Not what Hope recommend, but I see a lot of bike shops doing it on Hope.
Reverse bleed
which way is reverse?
Hopes seem like they do the job but there are like 4 people in my riding group who have Hope brakes and every single one of them squeals and squeaks in the most uncomfortable high pitched sound, that really puts me off them. I've seen lots of youtube people with Hope brakes also have the same sound, I wouldn't be able to put up with it if I had it on my bike.
Saints, the only brake i could lock up the back wheel with.
I can easily lock the back wheel on my retro 26er with v-brakes. In my garage.
How is "locking up" the measure of any brake for flip's sake??
thols2
Free MemberThe problem is that a brake that has good power at high speed cannot have good low-speed modulation, and vice-versa.
Ehhh... My ancient Formula The Ones, and some of the SRAM Guides and Levels, prove this wrong. And no doubt loads of others but those are the ones that I've got most experience of. Power and modulation aren't mutually exclusive at all.
But I think like people said earlier in the thread some people conflate grab with power, so brakes that have both good modulation and good power split opinion. I can definitely understand why a lot of companies, when they make a powerful brake, also make it unsubtle. Can't think of how many professional reviews I've read that complain about a lack of initial bite.
In the end it's a matter of taste- I did't like my Saints at all on the DH bike, and went back to my lovely The Ones, but I reckon that puts me in the minority.
Reverse bleed - drain the master cylinder, squirt new fluid into calliper bleed port while making sure the hose is the highest point on the calliper. Drain master and repeat. Keep doing it until the fluid at the master cylinder is clean and bubble free.
Done with either a long hose on the syringe to the calliper, or with two people it’s an almost continuous process. Great way to teach your son how brake bleeding works.
bleeding them is a PITA
No harder than a car brake, beats the hell out of buggering about with syringes and random fittings.
“ With car and truck brakes you run out of tyre adhesion long before your run out of brake power. That is not the case with mountain bike brakes.”
Really?!! On both my bikes it’s dead easy to skid the rear and if I just yank on the front I’ll go over the bars if the grip is good or I’ll skid out. I don’t believe I’m the only rider with good brakes and finger strength.
I did not word this very well
The power of MTB brakes is much closer to the tyre adhesion limit, it is why they are so sensitive to contanimation, heat and choice of friction material. Yes you can lock your wheels but can you do it in all conditions and at all speeds? probably not.
Automotive brakes can run red hot, with oil on the discs and low quality pads and still bring you to a stop because they have orders of magnitude more brake torque than is required to by the tyres.
Hope used to have the best customer service ever !! Last few times I’ve needed assistance it’s been shit ! Too popular now ? Zero ****s given ?
Who knows maybe I’ve caught them on a bad day/s ?
Ffs are we doing this again already?
My Hope brakes are righteous gods whilst all others are blasphemous devils.
“ Automotive brakes can run red hot, with oil on the discs and low quality pads and still bring you to a stop because they have orders of magnitude more brake torque than is required to by the tyres.”
I haven’t driven a car with unservoed brakes in a very long time - but isn’t that the big difference?
When a car skids it doesn’t fall over and now we have ABS they don’t really skid. On a MTB we spend a lot of our time on the limit of grip, both braking and cornering.
What are motorbike brakes like?
How is “locking up” the measure of any brake for flip’s sake??
Shows it has the grab to do that. Which incidentally my new deore 4 pots cant. Odd that isnt it.
for flips sake.
But no need to throw a tantrum.
What are motorbike brakes like?
Ok but not as good as well set up Hopes . 🙂
Hopes are really simple to bleed. Far easier than the shimano, Sram and Tectro I have also bled. No special kit needed - just a bottle of fluid and a piece of clear tubing and an old jam jar
My Hope brakes are righteous gods whilst all others are blasphemous devils.
Lolz
