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I've been getting into my hillwalking a bit more recently, recently enjoying a couple of wet and wild dashes up the Cobbler and Ben Lomond.
On both occasions we yomped up nice and quickly, and on the way down have either walked pretty quickly, or, on my mate's insistance, broken into a slight jog.
Both times though I've been hobbled for two or three days after with severely stiff, sore quads, so much so that walking across the office is difficult. What's going on?
I get that, too, thinking it hurts a lot more to ride up big hills so walking will be a doddle. Nope, it crocks me. Its the coming down that does damage I think. Especially with 20kg on your back.
Different muscles innit? I unwittingly* did a 12hour epic walk/scramble round snowden and couldn't walk next day (could only limp the day after) but 12hours on a bike wouldn't have bothered me (well not too much anyway)
*my mate said "lets go for a walk up snowden", he neglected to mention how far or how long it would take.
Its that thin muscle up the front of my thighs that always gets me, tight and very sore the day after walking or running.
Same thing happens to me too. Rubbish, isn't it?
No expert (on will be along shortly, i'm sure...) but
You're using the muscles in a different way - especially on the downs, more so with added rucksack weight.
Downhill on a bike your brakes do the stopping.
Coming own on foot your legs are taking the impact of the steps and doing the braking...
On the way down, youre using muscles to stop your legs bending (if that makes sense), controlling the stretch of your 'pushing' muscles you use for cycling. It's higher impact too - not the smooth pedalling motion.
Either that or you're even softer than folk on here say you are.....
😛
Yep, my legs pretty strong in the uphill direction from biking/skiing - absolute sh1t going down again!
Maybe if I started pedalling backwards..............
Is is because you're a XC MTB mincer? 😆
Diferent muscle groups. I did Snowdon in a fit of enthusiasm via the Miner's Trail on the way up and the "Pig Track" on the way down. Couldn't walk properly afterwards, either. I've been doing a training circuit of 30k in the Surrey Hills for about six months now as I want to do more inaccessable (to a bike) peaks and I've only just got to the stage where I don't feel like my legs are about to resign in protest afterwards.
Keep going!!
Boooo... I was hoping there was some fancy shiny kit I could buy to make it all better, it really is different from MTBing after all isn't it? 😀
Maybe won't embark on a 3-dayer straight away then, Beinn a'Bheithir in a couple of weeks will be next one, ridges ahoy!
I notice it too. Which is odd considering I end up pushing my bike up most of the hills anyway.
The sickeningly fit bloke I work with told me about this today when I said I was aching.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delayed_onset_muscle_soreness
you need walking poles. In fact, go the whole hog and get a bobble hat and red socks too.
Like they all said it's due to eccentric loading of your quads, otherwise known as "going downhill".
Google DOMS. I always get hit with it when I'm bike fit but not mountain fit.
MTB = great training for walking uphill, sadly not for jogging down!
I love the Cobbler. Annoach Eagach ridge is a must do and Liathach, An Teallach and the Cuillins on Skye.
As said above, one sport doesn't really seem to help the other very much.
Descending a hill means that you are lowering yourself. You muscles need to lengthen yet at the same time maintain tension to allow this to happen. Eccentric contractions such as these are harder for your muscles to do.
Dont get walking poles. They are bad for you.
The DOMS theory makes sense, the sensation is identical to the feeling I get after very infrequent games of squash.
Will need to get out on the hills next weekend then, Stuc a'Chroin and Ben Vorlich it is!
Walking poles are the way to go. I don't know a single serious hillwalker, ML etc who doesn't use and recommend them. They make a reasonable difference going up, but it's the coming down when they seriously reduce the leg impact and the downward momentum from your pack. With a bad knee and a bad back, I could simply not hillwalk if I didn't have poles
I disagree with the remark about not using poles (or maybe you were being sarcastic).
Posture is important to effective movement. Good posture delays the onset of fatigue and possible injury. Used well, walking poles help maintain good posture, esp. when carrying a substantial load of camping or climbing clobber.
You can think of walking poles like full-suspension - reducing fatigue and giving more points of traction.
CaptainMainwairing you cant know many serious hillwalkers then. My wife published an article several years ago on how walking poles made no significant difference to EMG activity on either inclines or declines.
I'm staying [i]right[/i] out of this argument...
Will do a few more hills before looking at poles, I'm unlikely to be doing anything epic until next year at the earliest.
JimmysHand's Palamares = something like 800 munro ascents, several months hiking round the Alps and several more months hiking and climbing in the Himalaya. Never used a walking pole once.
Been out walking with the g/f twice this year in Snowdonia and both times I'm struggling and ache afterwards. I tell her that after 10 years mtb'ing I've evolved into a higher being more suited to biking that walking ..... she doesn't believe me.
I suggest taking the hill runners approach, and carrying less and moving faster.
No need for a big heavy rucksack, just have a lightweight waterproof jacket etc in bum bag. And if you're going to be jogging / running down the hill, then hill running shoes are better than heavy boots.
Serious hillwalker/climber here *waves*.
All the Wainwrights by the age of 17, since you ask, and a great deal of Lakes/Scottish summer and winter mountaineering in the 25 years since then. However I now have (a) dodgy knees and (b) poles to help with them.
To be fair they do more for balance/stabilisation and forward propulsion rather than taking a significant amount of the load most of the time, except on steep downhill steps. On *really* steep grassy descents you can do something like a skier's linked turns, which is entertaining.
They make the biggest difference in winter trudging through snow with a heavier load on, but I've never thought to drag an EMG monitor along with me. Do you think I should?
My understanding of poles, or "Nordic Walking", is that the poles are to excercise your upper body muscles, rather than being a means of support...
jimmyshand, as I said I know plenty of hillwalkers, qualified mountain leaders and instructors. Don't know a single person who doesn't use them.
I am sure you're wife's article was well researched, but as you said it was several years ago. It is also only one article amongst many others that recommend them, and pervasive positive anecdotal information.
IME it is very unusual nowadays to see any walkers in big hills not using poles
" just have a lightweight waterproof jacket etc in bum bag"
I totally agree about taking the lightest load that's reasonably possible. But super light camping gear and trainers often doesn't cut it when a storm hits the mountains. And ropes get very heavy when they're wet!
Yup, I find the two activities certainly use your leg muscles in different ways. There's a more pronounced effect for me when going from MTB to running (going down stairs the day after an occasional run can really hurt!).
I was reluctant to get some walking poles, but now I've got some wouldn't go back. Great 4WD effect on the ups. I find they're a great stability aid on rough ground, crossing streams or bog etc. And when it's pissing down you can use them to hold your tarp up for a nice dry lunch break!
There is a lot of research carried out that says that poles are beneficial. You do need to look at who paid for that research though. I know that the author of probably the most famous piece of research on the subject freely admits that his study was seriously flawed, but that he needed the money for research in other fields.
No offence to previous posters but the folk doing the wholw Nordic Walking thing always look faintly ridiculous to me - they almost always seem to be very serious, late 30s couples of the matching anorak flavour, who storm along, dtermined to not really enjoy their walk.
They never seem to have the time to utter more than a clipped, strained, "Hi" at best. Are they the walking equivalent of roadies 🙂
And I do take one pole with me on every semi-serious hike - it helps me balance over rough stuff and stream crossings. More importantly, the top unscrews to turn it into a camera monopod.
There is a lot of research carried out that says that poles are beneficial.
I don't care either way. In my personal experience, they can help.
Again in my experience, they make the biggest difference carrying a load in adverse conditions ie. not the "Nordic Walkers" round the lake on a sunny afternoon...
Great 4WD effect on the ups
A good metaphor, going uphill on slippy/icy/gravelly ground you can push along effectively with the poles even though your feet are skidding out from under.
I'm pretty fit for riding but one 3 hour walk near Brecon with my wife left me hobbling and her laughing at me...
Gym classes must be better than cycling as training for walking downhill.
BTW in my youth I did a fair bit of walking in the UK and the Alps. Even though I could run downhills no problems in those days, I still found having poles was helpful if I was carrying full pack.
Poles also lead to relative deterioration of the dynamic stabilising muscles used in hill walking too apparently. Would make sense to me.
I`ve fround that the more cycling I do the more my legs hurt on descents, very much DOMS and quads feel like a meat tenderiser has worked on them all over.....HOWEVER from experience doing quad stretches (ie bending leg back, foot to bum) for about 30 sec after cycling and after hill wlaking does seem to lessen the DOMS effect
Poles also lead to relative deterioration of the dynamic stabilising muscles used in hill walking too apparently.
Well it's a good thing I sometimes go walking without them, or my legs would be jelly now I'm sure.
Out of interest, did your wife's study investigate uneven/slippery/unstable surfaces, steep uphills/dowhills, heavy loads, walking through deep snow, walking in strong winds?
Or did she just put people on a treadmill in the lab?
A mixture. Always compared like for like though. I seem to remember it causing quite a stir when an extract was published in one of the walking magazines - trail perhaps.
Poles also lead to relative deterioration of the dynamic stabilising muscles used in hill walking too apparently. Would make sense to me
Dynamic stabilisation muscles? What are they? And what evidence for that statement?
Have not read any of the research but the bottom line is that they work for me, for all of the serious hill walkers I know, and for 95% of all people I see on the hills. Proof enough
Edit - and please don't even think about saying that everybody has been duped by advertising and reading articles - give people some credit for making informed choices
CaptainMainwaring in 97.546573727% or statistics are made up on the spot shocker.
CaptainMainwaring in 97.546573727% or statistics are made up on the spot shocker.
You're the one vaguely quoting "research" despite happily admitting that you've:-
Never used a walking pole once.
Newsflash: we've actually used them. We have personal experience to back up our opinions.
Never used them because I've never seen a need to use them. You keep using your opinion to help you make decisions, I'll stick to using sound scientific evidence.
As above, DOMS caused by eccentric loading on your quads I reckon.
Boooo... I was hoping there was some fancy shiny kit I could buy to make it all better, it really is different from MTBing after all isn't it?
I have the answer you're looking for. Buy a fixed and get used to using your legs for braking. Same thing. A whole new niche awaits, plus think of the fashion wear. I should charge for this kind of thing 🙂
If you use them do you use 1 or 2 poles ? And is there a technique you try and follow such as when left foot forward then the right hand pole is forward ?
[i] You keep using your opinion to help you make decisions, I'll stick to using sound scientific evidence.[/i]
The great thing about sound scientific evidence is that there's always some that matches a personal opinion 🙂
I'm off the bike for the next few months through a Lat' quad muscle / tendon issue.
I hope to be getting back into some serious walking soon.
Hope to God I don't need a walking stick (trekking pole) as my experince of watching the sort of duffers who used to use them some 5yrs or more ago is not a positive memory at all.
I think Nordic walking and people who like to use trekking poles (walking sticks) is not one & the same though (?).
Treking poles can be great fun on occasion. I remember jogging down the descent from glyder fawr down to lyn y cym, then down to lynn idwal. The first bit on the zig zags you could just stick em out far ahead to pivot round the corners, and the 2nd half rather than having to slow down for the rock steps, you could just extend the poles and pole vault down each step effortlessly converting potential energy to forward kinetic energy. Felt fantastic!
I find even walking on the flat buggers my legs if I've been doing lots of biking (like 1000's of miles). The only fix for me is to walk/run more building mileage until I'm back to 'normal'.
On the pole front, anecdotal evidence from me. I started using poles when I kicked of this years Munro round. I find they save my knees grief and help with some really big days. Not sure about 'dynamic stability' muscles but I seem to be able to manage with and without though I now prefer with.
BTW, I'm not a mid 30's Nordic ****er, errrr, walker. 🙂
Dont know about the 'research' but I did do 7 Munros on Saturday using poles. Not sure the legs would cope without them to be honest!
I've also got back into hillwalking again recently. Now I find going up the hills way easier than going down them. I think maybe cycling exercises the muscles that are good at walking uphill but not the downhill ones. I felt like I could climb all day but going down I felt like a 90 year old.
I started hillwalking again a couple of years ago, caused lots of problems with achilles tendon pain, was told by a physio that I had very tight hamstrings and achilles tendons due to years of cycling, never stretching legs out fully. A series of stretching exercises helped enormously.
I find walking poles (definitely two) beneficial when carrying a heavier pack, but don't normally bother for day walks. They do lessen the load on your knees, particularly descending.
Saw a recent article about a study that claims to prove the benefits of poles:[url= http://www.tgomagazine.co.uk/news/gear-news/trekking-poles-the-scientific-evidence-1.1032812 ]Pole study[/url]
"it causing quite a stir"
Probably because the conclusions don't resemble the real-life experiences of actual hikers.
Apparently wearing shoes is really bad for your muscles too. Save yourself all that degeneration by Munro bagging barefoot 😉
Next thing, someone will be on here to tell us that gears and suspension are bad for you. Oh, they already did. 😆
Cycling does make you fit but its non impact. This is a good thing because it means you can do a lot of cycling and not bugger your joints up however its also bad in that your muscles and joints get "soft" so when you do an activity like running or hillwalking that involves impact you suffer like the OP.
I'm a keen hillwalker and never had a problem with sore legs when I was hillwalking regularly. Now I hill walk much less because I've moved south I found cycling was keeping me fit so I had plenty of strength and energy for walking but I suffered a lot with soreness the day after. I now make sure I run regularly which has hardened my legs up so I now have no soreness problems after being on the hill.
Oh and another vote for trekking poles here from an ex trekking pole sceptic. Good uphill as I can use my arm muscles in addition to my legs to get me up faster and good on the downs for reducing the impact of step downs. They also help with fording streams.
Maybe it's just because I'm fit and used to walking up hills lots that I dont get pain in my legs when out hillwalking.
Or you're not doing enough cycling to experience the effects when hillwalking. It's nothing to do with fitness per se, it's the crossover.
Trust me. I'm doing enough cycling.
Wow, not out to make many friends here are we jimmyshand? 😀
Don't know if I'm prepared to start running to prevent the sore legs, will just have to spend a few more weekends in the hills, what a hardship!
Cycling shortens muscles in the leg over time and so affects both the ligaments and tendons accordingly. I now stretch for an hour each evening.
So much is cycling implicated in my new found body that I've developed a sloping gait and a walk that sees me not being able to articulate the leg fully.
I have a walk on part (!) in the next re-make of Planet of the Apes & I'm a logical stand-in for any John Wayne re-makes.
I've always mixed up walking and cycling, so I've never really experienced the issue you mention. However, I do have a couple of observations:
a) Try running downhill instead of walking. As others have mentioned, it's really the action of constantly halting your downhill progress which is causing the muscle pain.
b) Use poles. For the doubters, go to Glenmore Lodge and ask the instructors how many use poles.
Boooo... I was hoping there was some fancy shiny kit I could buy to make it all better
What about a [url= http://www.leki.com/trekking/trekkingPole.php?pID=31 ]carbon and suspension[/url] based solution 😉
I've had the same problem when I've not been out walking for a while. Uphills are fine but the downs cause similar sounding next day pain in my thighs. Keep meaning to try a set of poles, but I've not gotten around to it yet.
It is my calf muscles that get it whenI am hill walking BUT I found this amazing remedy....................stretching...............I know, who'd have thought it!!!
Best. Thread. Ever.
Cheers me up no end that other people are suffering the same as I do.
13th Floor Monk - I know you're not tempted anyway, but running won't help so you can rest easy on that one.
When I had the time to get up hills a couple of times a month, I didn't suffer nearly as much as I do now, even though I'm sure I'm fitter now from a running or cycling standpoint.
On the poles thing - having spent my money on a pair, I'm still not convinced. I think I walk slower with them, but I do think they're useful for balance on steepish ground and river crossings. But then, at least in my experience, there's a fine line between finding a pole useful for balance and wanting to crawl on your hands and knees. Jey walking, anyone?
Maybe it's just because I'm fit and used to walking up hills lots that I dont get pain in my legs when out hillwalking.
Or maybe you are walking too slowly 😛
Oh and any hope of a link or details to an abstract of your wifes study? I'm curious as to its parameters, methodology etc as EMG activity is not the sole factor in gait biomechanics afaik..
Your only fit for what your fit for.
You may well be good for 12 hours in the saddle (fnar) but may be useless after an hours swimming and vice versa.
All forms of exercise use muscles in different ways and they all take different tolls on the body.
Having done a fair bit of running I'm finding hill-walking ok as something I can do as a 'one off', but my toenails don't like it.
Unless your a bit of an exception, anything *different* you do at a sustained effort your body is not used to is going to hurt you
The easiest and most fun descent I have ever experienced (on foot) was coming down the middle peak of the Sligachan horseshoe on Skye. It was the first time as an adult that I'd experienced scree-running and it was truly amazing.
The whole slope is made up of small to medium sized boulders - you just let go and run - so exhilarating - each massive step covers about three metres and the descent is over in no time. Probably a very bad thing to do in terms of erosion but I'd do it again tomorrow - like sliding on ice, but down the side of a 45 degree slope. Didn't need my poles 😉
I know you're not tempted anyway, but running won't help so you can rest easy on that one
Well I'm living proof that sweeping statement is complete bollocks. It may not have worked for you but it did for me.
I'm surprised that someone (birly-shirly) says jogging/running won't help walking fitness. I found the opposite, it's very helpful, especially jogging uphill to workout the same muscles.
Also, I recently started using poles, I've found them a positive aid to propelling myself uphill and helpful stopping stumbles and trips downhill, at 43 you need all the help you can get on the leg joints and if some impact is taken on the arms/hands/poles, that's got to be good.
One of my pals who fell and broke his ankle badly whilst absailing off a climb now can only hill walk with the aid of poles to stop him 'going over' on the bad ankle. Athough not absolutely necessary, I can only see positive reasons to use poles.
Poles and get used to walking in the mountains. Get the miles in. It might not make it easier having poles but it don't half take the impact loads out of the descents and help balance.
Pieface - Member
<snip> Having done a fair bit of running I'm finding hill-walking ok as something I can do as a 'one off', but my toenails don't like it.
<snip>
I keep mine in a drawer at home, saves the faff 🙂
Uponthedowns and B.A.Nana
I don't know about your experience. But when I was hillwalking at least a couple of times a month, I would get up and down with no real problems and no muscle soreness in the days after. And I would have been doing a lot less running or cycling than I do now.
I'm not claiming to be an elite athlete or anything like it - but I would comfortably run a half-marathon or ride a hilly century now. Whereas the occasional hillwalk now leaves my legs really stiff for a day or two after.
All I'm suggesting is that fitness is pretty specific. If you want to train for hillwalking, but don't have the time to walk up and down an actual hill, then maybe hill running will do the job. But then, if you can run serious hills as part of your normal training, you're probably already considerably fitter than me.