[Closed] Helvellyn deaths- "safety restrictions include allowing only guided walks"

Daft idea dreamt up by someone with not enough knowledge and nice headline grabbing idea.

head hits table....

Though I can see why some people want to try and stop people hurting themselves. I've rescued people on Striding edge who were a long way out of their depth. Sings would probably be a better option.

Knee jerk reaction from friend/acquaintance of someone who's died. I know of people who've died from tripping on the kerb at the side of the road - do we need guides for that as well?

Not going to happen as it would be impossible/impractical to police.

Christ,imagine if that catches on up here where the proper hills are. One problem I saw at striding edge was how it attracted people because of it's location. I climbed it in the xmas holidays and was prepped for winter,a lot of folk weren't and were just looking to kill a day with a wee walk.

It's not going to happen. Striding Edge is quite tame in reality. That being said I went up there had a look a decided it wasn't for me.

"There are calls for safety measures to be introduced on Helvellyn, after the fifth death on the mountain this year".

Calls by who? There is only one name mentioned in the article who as a fell-walker should know better.

How the hell would they police it?? I went (was taken) across Striding Edge when I was 8 months old in a back-pack carrier. My parents were regular hill-walkers, knew the risks and were properly equipped (from the photos) even in 1974! Still one of my favorite ridges in the Lakes, but it seems to have become a honey-pot for tourists with no idea of the risk, or without proper equipment - I've seen the flip-flops and shorts only brigade and spend the rest of the day hoping not to see a yellow sky taxi arriving.

the drive to the car park will be a higher risk for most.

At least the mountain rescue fella talks sense.

And what about the fell races and long distance events? Winter climbers?

the problem in the lakes is how accessible everything is. People don't realize that Striding Edge in winter condition is not like a stroll up Catbells in summer. Even if you're properly equipped with summer walking kit that doesn't cover what you need in winter. it's scary seeing people sliding all over and grabbing onto each other as you stamp past with crampons on

It's not going to happen. Striding Edge is quite tame in reality. That being said I went up there had a look a decided it wasn't for me.

+1 but I have also got to it and turned back. It was April and there was still ice / snow on the edge and I didn't have winter kit with me. I'm sure some folk would just have a bash, neglecting that in those conditions one slip and you'd be off.

As for

the drive to the car park will be a higher risk for most.

I very much doubt it. The UK has about 34 deaths per billion passenger km (source: EU (2012), Transport in Figures Statistical Pocketbook 2012). So assuming you drive around 100km to get to Helvellyn you have a probability of kicking the bucket of somewhere around 3 in a million.

Assuming around 100,000 climb Helvellyn a year (Ben Nevis gets around this number, I assume Hellvelyn would be less) and 5 die. That's 50 in a million chance of killing yourself, so an order of magnitude more risky.

What a load of Bollocks.

Weather can get a tad iffy sometimes two climbers said wtf are you doing up here 🙂
[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7446/11503409815_835649d700_z.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7446/11503409815_835649d700_z.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/iwvYXZ ]1466303_10151857879303802_1757385894_n[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/nzrich/ ]Richard Munro[/url], on Flickr
Riding Helvellyn tonight looks a bit moist out

I agree with the Mountain Rescue guy, a guide wouldn't prevent the deaths on there at all.

That said, both Striding Edge and Swirral Edge are not easy walks and the penalty for failure [i]is[/i] death. If you add weather to that you're almost guaranteed failures. Both those edges are very exposed and the weather can turn up there in minutes. It can also be a calm sunny day on one side of an edge and blowing a gale on the other. I've ridden all over the Lakes and one minute I've been taking pictures of sunshine and rainbows and the next been wondering if I need the flying yellow taxi myself !

What upsets me is when the children are killed on there. A 7 year old was killed last year during the winter. [i]That[/i], whilst very tragic, was both irresponsible and stupid.

I think warning signs at either end of the edges would be sensible. Warning the casual walkers of the dangers and asking them not to take small children and guiding them towards the safer routes. There's an un-written rule anyway that if you're stood at the hole in the wall and you can't see Striding Edge because of cloud or snow... then don't carry on.

I've seen Striding edge when approaching from the south end of the Helvellyn range, it was a fine weekday in June and you could see people like ants marching along the top. Unless you are desperate to say you've done it, don't mind crowds or have the ability to get there quickly if the weather clears up unexpectedly on a bad day, there are better walks to do imo.

Signage probably isn't a bad idea, maybe highlighting the number of deaths (like they do on A roads saying "x number of people died in 2014") to really hammer the point home. But leaving the choice open to the majority- the competent people who have at least a vague idea of what they're up to- is essential in my mind.

I recall being on Skye and watching the Mountain rescue carrying a body down to the Sligachan hotel.

He wasn't a climber, he was having a stroll in the heather and slipped and banged his head.

Accidents do happen, and they always will. I don't see how misguided good intentions will stop them.

If anyone stops me from walking helvellyn because I'm not being guided, I'll throw them off the side.

They'll be classifying adrenalin as a class B drug next and HR will be piss testing for it in the workplace.

If anyone stops me from walking helvellyn because I'm not being guided, I'll throw them off the side

People who think mountains have 'sides' maybe shouldn't be allowed... 😆

I think who ever owns Helvellyn should charge, turn styles at the bottom of the edge and some handrail would be a good idea.

A nothing of a story with an overblown headline to attract attention - I'd expect better from the beeb to be honest:

"There are calls for" turns out to mean, apparently, "One person has suggested..."

It's all a bit Daily Mail really.

fergal - Member
I think who ever owns Helvellyn should charge, turn styles at the bottom of the edge and some handrail would be a good idea.

Kinda like Everest then 😉

People who think mountains have 'sides' maybe shouldn't be allowed...

😛

[img] [/img]

Yeah piss poor journalism, back in the early nineties Jimmy saville proposed putting benches at intervals up the tourist path on the Ben to make it safer! this idea gained some momentum with certain misguided individuals, the benches were actually purchased and sat gathering dust in a yard somewhere, the stupidity of the general public is not to be under estimated.

excitable1

That said, both Striding Edge and Swirral Edge are not easy walks and the penalty for failure [s]is[/s] [b]could possibly be death if you fall at the wrong place[/b]

FTFY

🙂 postierich

The only time striding edge is dangerous to a healthy adult is if it is full on winter conditions, covered with a thick verglas, and you're wearing only a pair of underpants with holes in them.

I'd add gusty winds to that: a friend was out in the Cairngorms one winter and his companion was blown off the (wide) ridge they were on and killed.

It's possible to contrive to trip over on any bit of any Lakes path. The only difference is that if you do that at the right point on Striding Edge, Swirral Edge, Sharp Edge, Crib Goch etc you tend to end up a few hundred feet lower with your legs sticking out of a boulder field.

Humans can make anything dangerous if enough of them are passing by it.

Doesn't mean they shouldn't be left to get on with it, as far as mountains are concerned though.

A lot of this is about perceived risk as opposed to genuine risk. For example over twice as many people die each year in the UK from falling down stairs as in motorbike accidents. The mortality [b]rate[/b] would show the opposite as many more people have stairs in their home than ride a motorbike. But we don't think of the home as being a particularly dangerous place.

In over 30 years of climbing around the world I had just one accident, I wasn't just bumbling around either, yet climbing/mountaineering is seen as dangerous. It's high risk in certain situations but in most it's a lot less risky than your average trail centre. It's all about perception.

I was stood on the top of helvelen at 2am on Saturday, I also summited 10 other Wainwrights between 10:50 and 3:25

UK needs to have a proper debate with itself about risk. We're peculiarly stupid about understanding it IMO. Media only reporting when things going wrong is a massive part of the general public misunderstanding the risks of activities like hillwalking, cycling etc

People won't ride a bike because 'it's risky'. Instead they eat bad food and live a sedentary lifestyle and kill themselves that way instead... in far higher numbers and at far greater cost to the taxpayer...

You don't achieve anything in life without taking risks at some level. First of all you have to accept that risk exists, rather than this idea that anything which involves risk must be avoided at all costs.

Then, the secret is to make an assessment of that risk, work out how you can minimise it and have a contingency plan for dealing with the situation if it goes wrong.

Skydiving is an interesting example. Somewhere between 500 and 1,000 jumps will take place every week in summer at every UK dropzone of which there are 30. The training and the procedures in place to manage the risk are rigorous, very rigorous and the culture is such that anyone who doesn't adhere to them is spoken to, or banned.

BPA stats show "Once a skydiver is fully trained, the average injury rate is 0.3 injuries/1000 jumps and the fatality rate is about 1/100,000" yet you ask anyone who's never jumped about skydiving and they think you're mental and have a deathwish. This, in my experience is because there's never anything in the media pointing out that thousand of people skydived safely last month, just the occasional story of a death... so you get the mad misperception of risk and danger based on totally skewed reporting in the media, with a lack of critical thinking to balance this out with an awareness that only deaths make the news...

Meanwhile "A survey by road safety charity Brake and Direct Line found three in 10 drivers send or read texts while driving, and one in eight using apps"...

Just trying to get new life insurance - silly premium because company decided their cut-off for "risky climbing" was UIAA 5 and above, so anything above a VS. Bonkers. I could be climbing E7s and be paying the same (I'd need a skill/strength transplant though).

Also, being picky I know, but:

What upsets me is when the children are killed on there. A 7 year old was killed last year during the winter. That, whilst very tragic, was both irresponsible and stupid.

Killed where? In the Lakes? Don't remember that. There was a 7 year old killed in a skiing accident in France this winter, but that's all I can think of (and is a completely different situation)

@brooess

+1

Like I said it's about perceived risk which bears little (more likely zero) resemblance to the actual level of risk.

Allied to this is the idea that something can be "made safe" - insurance ads are great for this, they give the impression that by taking out insurance for a particular activity then it becomes safe. Eh?? A piece of paper (or more likely a file on a computer somewhere) is going to protect you from falling off a mountain, how does that work then?

@jonathan

I was once informed by an life insurance assessor that participants in so called "risk sports" were no more of a financial risk to the company than the general population as the increased risk of injury from the sport was far outweighed by the fact that they were much healthier overall. At that time when they asked about such things it was more about stats gathering.

I was stood on the top of helvelen at 2am on Saturday, I also summited 10 other Wainwrights between 10:50 and 3:25

Not quite sure how that is relevant to the discussion but on BG support by any chance ?

re the life insurance - some companies are better than others. I once got a very detailed questionnaire about different types of climbing which seemed to take into account the relative risks of sport, trad, mountaineering, soloing etc. It made more sense than lumping in fat punters placing gear every 2ft (i.e. me) with someone like Alex Honnold.

People won't ride a bike because 'it's risky'. Instead they eat bad food and live a sedentary lifestyle and kill themselves that way instead... in far higher numbers and at far greater cost to the taxpayer...

Yep - that's the bit that really grates. I agree entirely.

There is nothing particularly unique about Striding Edge. If we need guides there, arguably we need guides every time we leave our front door. Hence this will never happen - but the fact it has even been reported shows how messed up our attitude to risk is. Our daily lifestyle choices with regards to food, drink and exercise constitute the biggest risk to almost all of us - followed by our driving behaviour. The % of fatalities per hill-walk must be spectacularly, vanishingly small.

Not quite sure how that is relevant to the discussion but on BG support by any chance ?

[url= http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/cumbrian-travel-agents-cctv-ghost-footage-revealed-1.759393 ]Linda Howard-Bates in her day job.[/url]

[img] [/img]

There is nothing particularly unique about Striding Edge. If we need guides there, arguably we need guides every time we leave our front door

EDIT: Just to be clear I think there is no chance such a thing would come into force, it's a terrible idea. IMO the issue with Helvelyn / Striding Edge is its a Wainwright walk and people have seen plenty of pictures of old ladies doing it so think it's trivial

Brooess speaks much sense.

There can be no adventure without risk and it is up to the individual to manage the risks they encounter in adventurous activity. If that means hiring a guide then fine but it wont be necessary for many.

Anyway, this Helvelyn story is just a piece of sensational journalism and nothing of the sort will happen.

The numbers of deaths on the mountain seem surprisingly high, but I've no idea how they compare to other mountains in the UK.

A couple of signs at the bottom and one further up stating how dangerous it can be would hopefully help, but you can't mitigate the risk completely.

but you can't mitigate the risk completely

And neither should you.

The problem lies with people who have scheduled a walk (etc) on a certain day and have had to put some effort into getting to the location (travelled some distance etc). They have a mindset that they are going to do that trip, if the weather and/or conditions are unfavourable they still go ahead. 15 years in an MR team, I've lost count of the times I've been called out to rescue people who normally would know better, the fact they have travelled 50miles or whatever to do a particular route clouds their judgement.

There are warning signs at the bottom of the Ben informing people of the possible conditions they might encounter. But they are far too often ignored by inappropriately equipped parties.

Helvellyn doesn't need to be the preserve of guided parties, there is always an element of risk with everything we do. People just need to be able to make the call to themselves that maybe ascending an exposed ridge in high winds etc is not the best course of action. At the end of the day it's the individual's call, but people need to understand that mountains can be deadly places.
Warning signs might work not be ignored as much if they had a suggested bad weather/low level walk on them

This is getting out of hand now. Striding Edge is a ridge where there are many places where if you fall you'll die.

It seems the accidents this year were down to conditions and unfortunately some people will venture out on difficult terrain without using or knowing how to use appropriate equipment. I accept it's not a good idea for ill equipped novices to take certain routes in winter conditions.

Now shall we propose a list of routes which should cary a Government warning, fixed ropes and handrails.

It's kind of sad this becomes a story based on one person's idiotic reaction. Slow news day? Clickbait? Ignore and move on probably the best way to deal with it.

That said, both Striding Edge and Swirral Edge are not easy walks and the penalty for failure is death.

Completely untrue.

If you add weather to that you're almost guaranteed failures.

Ditto. No such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate equipment. I have been on Helvellyn in all weathers.

TBF, scariest was coming across a boy and family stuck on final chimney (?) at the end of the edge with wellies and wondering why he was having problems with the verglas. We actually got our ropes out to make sure he was safe getting off. We had been climbing in east face so was quite a shock to see folk with such inappropriate equipment in the middle of winter.

Both those edges are very exposed and the weather can turn up there in minutes. It can also be a calm sunny day on one side of an edge and blowing a gale on the other.

Phew, some truth.

I don't know what the world's coming to!
As a spotty 14yr old schoolkid waaay back in 1971 our school did an outward bound trip to Howtown along with a party from Wolsingham school. On a day out one of their lads slipped off Striding Edge & pierced his shoulder with his ice axe. He got down ok but went home after hospital treatment. Our instructors obviously did a risk assessment & decided it was ok for an instructor to take a party (including me) straight up to the summit from Red Tarn, all roped up & cutting steps in the snow! This was after a night by the fire in Ruthwaite Lodge.
Wouldn't happen now, would it? H & S has stopped a lot of fun & sometimes 'once in a lifetime' experiences for kids.
Happy days.

No such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate equipment.

Oft quoted but patently untrue. Equipment makes it easier to cope with bad weather but it doesn't necessarily make you safer (as I'm sure you know) and there are weather related risks that are not mitigated by equipment in any way.

Ok, spin I exagerated (slightly) true! But basic issue is simple - respect mountains and be prepared.

Essel, it will be hi-viz jackets next!

This is getting out of hand now. Striding Edge is a ridge where there are many places where if you fall you'll die.

If you were unlucky yes.

It starts as a pretty broad flat ridge, very hard to fall off:

[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7205/6863938179_e02b3b3193.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7205/6863938179_e02b3b3193.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/bsxtFH ]Liz on Striding Edge, Helvellyn[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

It then narrows, and yes, a trip here could get you in trouble, but most likely just scare you.

[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7057/6863944563_d9e4c09476.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7057/6863944563_d9e4c09476.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/bsxvzM ]Liz on Striding Edge, Helvellyn[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

The tricky bit is one down climb, which in winter is probably where you'd come a cropper if you were in plimsoles etc

[url= https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7060/6863949655_2e91d7bd80.jp g" target="_blank">https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7060/6863949655_2e91d7bd80.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/bsxx6z ]Liz on Striding Edge, Helvellyn[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/brf/ ]Ben Freeman[/url], on Flickr

Also, you might get caught out on the slope off the ridge back up to Helvelyn if it's covered in frozen neve and you don't have crampons / know how to kick steps.

I know THM, I know. 😉

Final photo is where the wellie incident took place. Poor lad was stuck about half way down.

Essel, it will be hi-viz jackets next!

Ahh now then, one of the items we had to have was a 'windproof jacket that was a bright colour' (or words to that effect)

I had a 'Blacks of Greenock' orange windproof smock, so i was ok.

Oft quoted but patently untrue. Equipment makes it easier to cope with bad weather but it doesn't necessarily make you safer (as I'm sure you know) and there are weather related risks that are not mitigated by equipment in any way.

Indeed. It's also important that people know how to use their equipment. A friend of mine works in an outdoor shop in Alberta and will occasionally refuse to sell equipment to people because he's afraid they'll buy the gear then jump in to situations they can't cope with.

Not quite sure how that is relevant to the discussion but on BG support by any chance ?

I pressed send before I finished.
I was going to say that no one was going to be out stopping people doing things at that time, so its a stupid suggestion. Also, doing that I experienced some of the most hostile conditions I've ever come across, the fog was so thick I couldn't see 1m in front of me, the rain was constant and it was dark, so my headlight just glared off the fog reducing visibility further (gonna be honest it doesn't sound as bad as it was), and I was in a light waterproof, T-shirt, shorts and trainers the whole way. Having equipment doesn't make you safe, knowing how to look after yourself does that.
And not quite, we were doing leg 2 of the Bob Graham relay (Billy bland relay for those in the know).

I was up there with a bike on Sunday at about 2am. Weather was a bit grim, but not too bad. [url=

Mate James took the pics, I'm the muppet in the blue jacket[/url] there were two guys bivvying in the summit shelter. I don't have the pics to hand, but we have carried bikes up Swirral on a tuesday night as a quick way up, to then descend Sticks or Dollywaggon.

Dan

Tomd your stats are sensationalist. Five deaths in a year does not mean five deaths every year, so your fifty in a million argument is misplaced. Of course, whether those raw stats are comparable is questionable anyway. All sorts of other factors affect risk on the roads (and probably the hills) which mean you can't simply treat it like that.

My son was conceived behind a large boulder on Helvellyn for my birthday, a ban would have certainly meant more privacy

Tomd your stats are sensationalist. Five deaths in a year does not mean five deaths every year, so your fifty in a million argument is misplaced. Of course, whether those raw stats are comparable is questionable anyway. All sorts of other factors affect risk on the roads (and probably the hills) which mean you can't simply treat it like that.

My son was conceived behind a large boulder on Helvellyn for my birthday, a ban would have certainly meant more privacy

That may have been so djglover, but what would the guide have been doing?

Stupid story by a stupid journalist who should know better than to base the headline on the ramblings of a self professed "experienced walker". Lots of other popular routes which are harder and more serious than Striding Edge - when I was young and more foolish I did it no-hands to prove it's not actually a scramble 8) . Though at a similar age I had enough sense to abort a trip over Crib Goch due to high winds - it clearly depends on the conditions.

[img] [/img]
Danger is a perspective thing...

First time I was on Helvellyn was about 17 years ago, in winter and I wandered up Swirral edge, I stopped just before the summit as the sea king was doing laps, somebody had gone through the cornice and slid 70% of the way to the tarn. Turns out he was OK. That can happen on any mountain.

What this really boils down to is location and access. It attracts people who think the mountains and scrambles are just like walking round the lake.

How many deaths and callouts are there each year?

How does that compare to say another comparable area?

You'd have to be daft as a brush looking at the pics of Striding Edge and not know the risks so I dont buy the 'just gone out for a stroll' derogatory remarks about those who've fallen.

Its enough effort, strain, time to get there to put off all but the determined and like when a hobby mountain biker sadly comes a cropper in certain places in the Lakes we know the risks.

Fair comment?

Yes there will always those who dont take the right clothing and get caught out but its life ffs. Let people live it.

Yes there will always those who dont take the right clothing and get caught out but its life ffs. Let people live it.

Accidents happen.