[Closed] Help with kids 26er build

Inbred

Tbf, currently any frame you can.

I have a very light xs sized fs bike for sale in the classifieds, but that's fully built

Alternatively, there was a nice looking kona kikapu frame for sale recently

My 2009 small trance has a really low cross bar. Looks like a modern bike still.

Very light
Look out for one.
I kept it for my boys and they grew out of it before I noticed. Now I keep it in case my wife wants to join me riding.

Got my daughter a Commencal Normal off ebay, and completely rebuilt it with the help of the good folk on here - to be fair it was 4-5 years ago and I think I caught a lot of people clearing out 26" bits after swapping to bigger wheeled bikes.

So I'd suggest any frame or decent looking bike you can get your hands on will do as a donor.

Thanks for the replies, realise I probably should have mentioned on the lookout for a HT.

Any HT suggestions (looking for second hand, happy to also take a whole bike if not too expensive and upgrade from there).

A look around eBay isn't finding too much of interest. Is a Scott voltage junior any good? Stock weight is heavy though, so not sure if it's heavy components or the frame or what...

I got one of these for my son when he was 9 and it's been great. https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/brand-x-ht-01-hardtail-mtb-frame-27-5-2019/rp-prod130452

-2 degree headset, Fox 120 mm 650b fork, 26" wheels and a 150mm crank and it's perfect.

Just get a small 27.5 frame ... stick the 26" wheels in until they grow with a correct length crankset you'll not have any problem with pedal strikes, especially on a HT. When they grow just put 27.5 wheels on.

Thanks, I've been leaving to that idea actually. And the CRC one looks interesting.

One quick question, seen a couple of trek (marlin4) and specialised (hotrock). Are the frames on those not too heavy. I can see the overall weight of the bikes is large, but can't tell if that's just heavy components!

And he's measured up as 4 ft 10 today, so wondering if the CRC small will be too big, or does putting 26 wheels on it fix that?

@happybiker suggestion for the win. You’ll not even get a second hand frame off eBay for that money.

Agree with above. Get the brand x frame. I got one when they still did it in 26 for my lad and it built up into a nice bike for a 9 year old. Sold it on to a mate when he grew out of it.

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Managed to fit a 120mm One up dropper too after a bit of drilling and filing.

Thanks, I’ve been leaving to that idea actually. And the CRC one looks interesting.

One quick question, seen a couple of trek (marlin4) and specialised (hotrock). Are the frames on those not too heavy. I can see the overall weight of the bikes is large, but can’t tell if that’s just heavy components!

And he’s measured up as 4 ft 10 today, so wondering if the CRC small will be too big, or does putting 26 wheels on it fix that?

I doubt there is much in it weight wise in any of the frames... and it matters a lot less as they get older. Go for the geometry you want IMHO.

Can't say actual height but the nipper got the XS for his 9th birthday (used frame)

We had the 26" wheels on for about a year...

Thanks so much for this, really helped me know what to do. So now I'm looking for a small/15 inch frame for 27.5 wheels, but put on 26 wheels and the CRC frame looks very good.

Question on the fork. That CRC frame suggests a 120mm fork. Numpty question probably but it's it ok to get 27.5 fork and put on 26 wheels (I'll be using disc brakes).

Question on the fork. That CRC frame suggests a 120mm fork. Numpty question probably but it’s it ok to get 27.5 fork and put on 26 wheels (I’ll be using disc brakes).

Yep absolutely ... the 27.5 fork will keep the bike balanced (axle to crown) and when you are ready you just slot in the 27.5 wheels.

I think the best pic I have but 26" wheels on here...

View this post on Instagram

Yes, get a 650b fork, more about and you have the option to upgrade wheels later.

Great info all just upgraded last child to 24 so will certainly go 27.5 route next with 26 wheels. Good Luck with your build.

Great info all just upgraded last child to 24 so will certainly go 27.5 route next with 26 wheels. Good Luck with your build.

Start looking for wheels 😉 our 26" were 2 spank Race28 rims @£15 each (so long as I chose blue that week.. kept changing) and some hubs I'd bought in a superstar sale a couple of years before... so cost me about £60 or so for the pair... (and they are currently on the 4xish bike)... with some 27.5 forks (some recon air) from a PSA off here for £90 for the forks... not the world best forks but perfectly adequate...

Thanks so much for this. the CRC Brand X frame is looking good right now...

I'm getting some resistance from the wife who is (maybe rightly) picturing a half built bike, a frustrated dad and a sulking teenager. But, I'm still keen and I probably need to get costs a little straight first...

Question on chainset: I'm keen to get an appropriate crank length and https://www.amazon.co.uk/SR-SUNTOUR-T-202-Chainsets-Mountain/dp/B0029MP3AO was suggested in another thread. What BB is going to be needed. Also if I wanted to run a 1x11 config, can I just swap out the middle ring, or is there a way to lose the other rings for aesthetic and weight reasons. Or happy to have another economical suggestion on crankset.

Hi OP
How about a Stumpie Expert M4 26" frame. Small.
Got one I bought on here a while ago.

Eldest uses it to get to school each day, but apart from that it's had no use since I bought it from some lying chancer on the forum a few years ago.

[img] [/img]

My son got a XS Brand-X HT-01 (650b fork, 26" wheels) when he was 10, so that's definitely a good option. It's a pretty good frame to be honest.

[img] [/img]

(have since swapped the fork for a black one, and got custom purple decals to pimp it up)

Just saw the question about that crank. Our bike has that crank: I recommend taking off all the rings and putting on a decent narrow/wide ring on the middle position, and a matching bash ring on the outer if you fancy it.

Searching my email suggests that the bottom bracket we're using is a Shimano BB-UN55, 73mm x 118mm.

As it happens, subject to winning an auction tomorrow, I'll be stripping my sons small brand X frame soon. It did 26 to start (wheels will also be up for grabs) and was pushed up to 650 a year ago. He's now just straight out too big for it

It'll be left with the BB and short cranks, which are the same as referenced above. I did take off the rings and put an alu drop stop on.

I have a 26” inbred frame with standard drop outs 16” in matt black with 170mm Octalink cranks.

Ragley Marley - in the spirit of STW go with what you know and did. Sticks to standard sizes so easy to transfer parts.

One further question, now switching to forks... I'll need a 27.5, ideally tapered fork. The 26 wheels (Crest Alpine) I have are on standard novatech QR hubs, but most of the forks I see are some kind of through axle. Is there a way to get the wheels to fit on those through axle forks without changing the hubs on the wheel?

Correction, so the front wheel is a Stans Alpine on an A2Z hub. Currently using a qr and I make it right 110m between very edge of hub (I e where qr goes in).

vis cranks ...
Scroll to the bottom of this page for a method and charts.

https://highpath.co.uk/crank-shortening/

We are still using 142mm on the main bike and 145mm on a shared bike.
I can probably get away with 150-155 now but no big rush.. waiting for a "round tuit"...

I've always just cut down longer cranks and drilled/tapped them. I've had very good use out of the pedal taps. You do need to be careful which cranks you buy* but lots of choice.

standard novatech QR hubs

According to CRC: Rear Hub Spacing: 135mm QR

Measurement is internal for QR... I'd expect any older 26er will be fine though.
I'm running a spacer for the boost fork... no problem in use but if you need to take the front wheel on/off it can be a bit of a faff.

*HT2 refers to the axle not the crank arms ... hollow crank arms are a no go (unless you get a solid bar welded in to tap) as are carbon but I've got loads off ebay over the years for £15 or so. If you go for a square taper crank then the length of the crank matters for chain line. Also if you do go sq taper UN55 will outlast his use of the bike...

Thanks for that, I had forgotten about the highpath website. I'll remeasure his inside leg and have a consider.

My two posts above the fork are a bit messy, so those can be ignored and I'll re-ask with some updated info below...

The wheel I'd like to use them with is a 26 on an A2Z hub, which is QR, so I assume a 9x100. I understand that I can't adjust this to take a thruaxle.

So my thoughts are either a 27.5 QR fork, or is there a way to make a 26 QR fork work , and then I can sort out a 27.5 fork when ready to move to 27.5 wheels? I've been offered a 120mm 26 QR Reba, but I assume that this will actually drop the front by 19mm? Is that going to look daft or mess up the ride; I suppose you could space up the bars so those are level.

My second thought is weight. He's approx 35kg, which I imagine means that any fork is going to have it's work cut out. I think from memory of looking at 24" builds that you can change the oil so they are just about effective at this weight? Is that right?

Yeah. I picked up a used Fox32 (iirc) and my local awesome bike mechanic serviced it and changed the oil for a lighter grade. If I ride it about to bed in the brakes in it is *very* plush, but seems good for him. It gets travel but doesn't just sit in it.

Thanks for that, I had forgotten about the highpath website. I’ll remeasure his inside leg and have a consider.

Its outside leg you need to measure (if you follow that page).

So my thoughts are either a 27.5 QR fork, or is there a way to make a 26 QR fork work

Honestly I'd either look for a conversion kit for the axle to 15x100 or rebuild the front wheel with a 15x110 (boost).

My second thought is weight. He’s approx 35kg, which I imagine means that any fork is going to have it’s work cut out. I think from memory of looking at 24″ builds that you can change the oil so they are just about effective at this weight? Is that right?

A lot depends on the fork ... if its open bath then changing oil and low friction seals will help... other might just work (if 90%)
My XC bike runs 100mm factory 32's as factory (just replaced seals) ... and these work fine at pressures for him. Bigger forks (Pikes) work well without mods... some old 32mm RS Revelations were never that great, even replacing the 5wt damper oil with 2.5wt... I could have messed with the shims but he needed longer travel anyway (150mm max on 32mm Revs) and i had "spare forks" due to upgrading my own longer travel bikes to 36's/lyriks

Don't really bother weighing him... just go by sag but I'd guess he is about 35kg now.

Thanks both, so the weight shouldn't be an issue then.

Regarding the 26 fork idea, there was some additional background thinking which is why I was exploring it. in that once he's done with the wheel, my youngest would soon be migrating to a 26 wheel and that's why I don't mind doubling up on fork purchases over time (and spreading the cost over a few birthdays!). So if I did get a 26 fork would 120mm be too low for the geometry?

I don't think it would make a huge difference, isn't the A to C on a 26" fork very similar length to a 27.5"? A bigger tyre would probably make up the difference.

Possibly but an alternative is to just get the youngest on a 26 wheel with 27.5 forks when the time comes...

It's not a huge difference but it is more than a different tyre size and you'd struggle to get a 27.5 (even small) in most 26" forks (except DJ ones perhaps)... (its pretty close to taking the tyre off to see the difference) and you can always drop another 27.5 fork by 10-20mm as well. (spread over time)

I'm not so keen on the 27.5 tyre on a 26 fork. To be clear my convoluted plan is

1) Oldest on 27.5S frame +26 120mm Reba fork +26 wheel. I **think** based on A-C differrence this would throw the front geo down by 10mm vs 27.5 120mm fork +26 wheel.
2) When he grows get a 27.5 wheelset with the right hub for a thruaxle + 27.5 fork.
3) Youngest inherits 26 fork +26 wheels. In time he would move to 27.5 wheels + fork.

Upsides - overall probably easier than re-hubbing the wheel I have, or finding a decent used affordable QR 27.5 fork and cheaper than a new wheel, and push the problem of finding a 27.5 fork to another point in time (and the ££ to another time). The cost of the extra 26 fork that I will get and sell in many years time is low (seen one that is happily inside budget) and I'll get plenty of use out of it.

Downsides - Geo impact. What else am I missing?

But really appreciating the comments - as you can tell, I'm a bit rubbish at this, but got to start somewhere.

Bit more searching and found some cheaper 27.5x QR, along the lines of a (i) Rockshox 30 TK Silver solo air 100mm travel and (ii) TK 30 Gold solo air with 110mm travel.

Anyone know if these can be adjusted to 120mm travel?

I know these re low end forks, but they appear light enough and I think could be good enough to start with I think as long as they will be ok with a lightweight kid.

Downsides – Geo impact. What else am I missing?

Mainly geo but also availability of spares and stuff.

I’m not so keen on the 27.5 tyre on a 26 fork. To be clear my convoluted plan is
3) Youngest inherits 26 fork +26 wheels. In time he would move to 27.5 wheels + fork.

Yeah I mean just skip the 26" fork and get a 27.5 ... then "little sprog" inherits this plus wheels.

I got the 27.5 RockShox Judy Silver TK Solo Air Boost Forks (cost me £99 on sale at CRC frpom a PSA on here) and they work fine but have a boost hub.

I'm running these with the 26" wheels (recycled) and an old Novatec hub with boost spacers. I don't need to remove the wheel often so the spacers aren't a pain.

I'd go thru axle if you can ... though its extra hassle now maybe?
You could grab one of these: https://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/v3-front-boost-hub-32-hole.htm

or look for a Novatec D771/D781 on ebay for about £40 (with correct axle - though you can convert for about £20)

Ta for the thoughts stevextc. Seems like I've narrowed it to a few options with the safety in knowing that none of them are truly terrible, they just are going to take different amounts of money, time and effort!

none of them are truly terrible, they just are going to take different amounts of money, time and effort!

Absolutely, I've been saying "what I'd do" but that's just me.

Loads of options non right or wrong... just different pro's and con's.
Worth considering how your/their riding changes ...

On the TK a good place to start is the SRAM Catalog

SRAM.COM "https://www.sram.com/globalassets/document-hierarchy/spare-parts/spare-parts-catalog/2021-rockshox-spare-parts-catalog.pdf"

100mm, 120mm, 80mm
This says the 80-120 are all the same airshaft (p35)

1 11.4018.010.231 FORK SPRING SOLO AIR ASSEMBLY - 80-120 MM-27.5/29 (THREAD PITCH 0.8MM) (INCLUDES TOP CAP, AIR PISTON, SHAFT BOLT) - JUDY SILVER A1/ 30 SILVER A3(2018+)

but 130mm is only in 29 and a different part

1 11.4018.103.009 FORK SPRING SOLO AIR ASSEMBLY - 130MM-/29 (THREAD PITCH 0.8MM) (INCLUDES TOP CAP, AIR PISTON, SHAFT BOLT) - JUDY SILVER A2+

When buying any fork bear in mind spares availability and maintenance costs. You can quite easily buy cheap but end up spending more or spending on something not worth it. (even doing your own services requires some spares/service kits) .. ie. just using the airshaft assy above shows about £40 (from germany) and typically the suspension tuners won't hold stock of low end fork spares.
I lost a single screw and dial from a previous fork and 3mo wait (back in non-Covid times) and £35 as I had to buy a whole assy...

for Rockshox a good place to check is the importers https://www.zyrofisher.co.uk/rockshox/products/sus-spare?c=gbp&ob=name&ps=0

(searched ebay which came up blank just using the part number)

Hence my preference for going with a thru axle and 27.5 ... because finding spares for 26 and/or QR can be a nightmare...

Thanks for those links, they are helpful for (slowly) improving my understanding of what is going on inside a fork, but also on the travel adjustment.

I second the 650b fork choice: 26er forks that are in reasonable condition are both 1) old and 2) relatively expensive. I sold a 26er Revelation and bought a brand new 650b Mattoc for the same price a couple of years ago...

Just about to strip down a brand new Voodoo Nzumbi 26er. Will be selling an almost complete build package including forks, wheels, bars, grips, stem, seatpost, saddle, crankset, pedals, gears, chain etc. The only bits I am keeping are the frame, bottom bracket, headset and brakes.

Might be a nice solution for someone who wants to do up an older frame cheaply, but without relying on 15yr used parts off ebay.

Thanks for those links, they are helpful for (slowly) improving my understanding of what is going on inside a fork, but also on the travel adjustment.

I can only speak for myself but nothing like taking stuff apart to see how it works.
As rossburton say's prices on older stuff are often crazy hence why I think the plan of "in a couple of years" won't work as expected. Forks aren't a non maintenance item and you can quickly go down a rabbit hole of spending more due to what you already spent just to keep them running.

There is a sweet spot of course when it's old enough to have dropped in price but still has spares available but even that is a moving target.

In more modern forks I've got (all 27.5 and 15mm thru axle)
2016 Fox36 - impossible to buy airshafts or other parts. (I did get a used one but took months of searching)
2019 Lyrik Ultimate (cost me £600 brand new before Brexit) + boost conversion for hub
2015 Pikes x 2.5 (built 2 good ones out of 3) getting hard to get compatible parts but just got a new damper for £80
2015 Revelation (hard to get parts)
2020 Judy (lots of parts cost me £99)
2015 Fox 32 Factory (spare parts limited)

+ a 26" 2012 Marzocci Bomber 20mm axle - no parts - essentially scrap

Just snaffled a 2017 pair of Rockshox TK 30 Silver 26" AIR 100mm forks on the bay for a good price. They came off a Norco Fluid 4.2 so already have a light kids tune in them.

Will reserve judgement on them until they arrive (hopefully tomorrow) and if they are any good, they will be going on my son's new Voodoo 26er build. If not, they will go back up on here and I will hunt out a pair of 650b forks.

Just measured the blighter and according to the highpath website he needs 160mm cranks. I was planning on the £30 Suntour jobby, but they are 152mm. Humph. Anyone know any half decent make of cheapish 160mm cranks, most seem to start at 165mm+?

He'll be fine with 152...

He’ll be fine with 165 too...

I just bought a pair of 150mm HUP cranks. Apparently these are good all the way up to 5'5" so there should be some mileage in them. Super-narrow q-factor though so when fitting to 26-incher frame, a wider square taper BB is required (110.5 up to 125 ish). I've bought three new square taper BB's from Amazon and will return the other two once I work out which fits best in terms of chainstay clearance and heal rub.

Today I also discovered that RS 26" 100m forks have a lower axle-to-crown than Suntour XCE 26* 100m forks. Not sure that's a good thing as it will steepen the head tube angle. May have to think again here. Possibly a 120mm 650b fork.

I think I'm tempted to go with 152 for now, he's coming from 140 so it's probably a better step. And I've found some bmx cranks at 160 that aren't too pricey that he can move to in time if needed.

Regarding chainring, is it a 104bcd narrow wide that I need (going on the Suntour Junior + 11speed shimano xt). And would there be any major problems with getting used - the chainrings that I've had always seem to last forever?

Got some 26" Fox forks up for sale if classifieds

I think I’m tempted to go with 152 for now, he’s coming from 140 so it’s probably a better step. And I’ve found some bmx cranks at 160 that aren’t too pricey that he can move to in time if needed.

I think you probably took the largest in the range when you used the calculator:)
Always size down... my kid is still on 142mm until I find some cheap cranks to cut down.

@Tracey

Do you know A/C / minimum travel or the serial?
(Against my better judgment just bought a 24" Norco jump bike for £100 with old Marzocchi shocks.. won't see the bike till next monday but half expecting shocks to be shot) looks like it has Halo hubs so hopeful I'll be able to convert the front. )

No but if you tell me where to find the number and the info I will have a look

Regarding chainring, is it a 104bcd narrow wide that I need (going on the Suntour Junior + 11speed shimano xt). And would there be any major problems with getting used – the chainrings that I’ve had always seem to last forever?

Yes, that Suntour XCT is standard 104 BCD. I imagine a lightly worn chainring would be fine (I've sold chainrings which are a year old and have just had anodising stripped, no other wear), just check the tooth profile before buying.

Fox serial number is usually a sticker behind left leg - top of the slider. 4 digits I think, alphanumeric.

Thanks Rich
Yep sorry just need the 4 character ID for Fox
Had to pick up concrete posts which I found close to twisted oaks and somehow had bikes in the van 😉 so not home now

Thanks @rossburton.

Another q question - would https://www.chainreactioncycles.com/brand-x-headset-44-56iiss-sealed/rp-prod130950 work with the brand x frame if using a straight steerer.

If so, annoyingly that one is out of stock, so if there are alternatives in that price range, much appreciated!

Cheers

Superstar headsets are reasonably priced and let you add a splash of colour.

Following this thread with interest as I'm about to build up a 26er for my massively tall 7 year old.

What's everyone thinking for frames? Anything about better than the Brand-X HT-01 in size Small?

Thanks again @rossburton for the suggestion. The ZS56/30 all appear out of stock there too, humph. But will keep an eye for when back in stock.

If it helps anyone, Decathlon have their ST-520 frames for £120 currently - https://www.decathlon.co.uk/p/st-520-27-5-frame-black/_/R-p-201451

Geo. looks similar to the Brand X and £30 cheaper.

dogthompson

What’s everyone thinking for frames? Anything about better than the Brand-X HT-01 in size Small?

That depends what they will be using the bike for.

stevextc

That depends what they will be using the bike for.

Well, for my lad we mostly ride locally, so singletrack, bridleways and a bit of messing about in the woods, nothing too gnar. He currently rides a 20" wheeled Kona Makena which is pretty heavy and has a pretty clunky RST fork.

However, I want to start taking him a bit further afield, Peaks, Sherwood Pines, Dalby, that sort of thing. I thought a small 26" wheeled alu HT with a proper fork would be the way to go to build his confidence.

Any other frame recommendations based on that?

However, I want to start taking him a bit further afield, Peaks, Sherwood Pines, Dalby, that sort of thing. I thought a small 26″ wheeled alu HT with a proper fork would be the way to go to build his confidence.

Any other frame recommendations based on that?

He'd need to be a really massively tall 7yr old.. especially if the aim is more confidence.
If they were already sending it and you wanted something just for

singletrack, bridleways and a bit of messing about in the woods, nothing too gnar

and long pedal days then you might get away with it.

stevextc

He’d need to be a really massively tall 7yr old

He's 4'5" to be fair!

Does it bother him if he can't put a foot on the ground?

@dogthomson That was the height mine was when he just turned 8, he's now 4ft 10 less than a year later! It is a bit of an awkward height in terms of you might only get a year out of a 24 inch bike. I don't know if you can do a small 26inch build and put 24 inch wheels on it to start with (like the suggestion for me to get a 27.5 inch frame and start with 26 in wheels).

On the subject of 24", I just found a rockshox hydra fork that I thought I had lost - I got it for the 24 inch build that I never got around to doing, 1.3kg and nice motion, think its 80mm travel. Anyone any idea what it might be worth??

Quick question - does this look ok to more learned eyes in terms of not being too worn:

Trying again with the image:

https://imgur.com/JVRKez2

I'd buy it.

It is a bit of an awkward height in terms of you might only get a year out of a 24 inch bike. I don’t know if you can do a small 26inch build and put 24 inch wheels on it to start with (like the suggestion for me to get a 27.5 inch frame and start with 26 in wheels).

Yeah it's really not a good height... I guess you could put 24 wheels on a 26 but its a bigger difference than 26->27.5 ... (because 27.5 isn't really 27.5) you'd likely get problems with hitting the BB or chainring etc. (even with short cranks)

If you took an 'oldschool' 26 it would be bigger (for any given bike/size when they swapped to 27.5 wheels got bigger and frame got less tall) but there are now even smaller 26ers for kids with modern geometry but smaller.

We just stuck with the 24 we already had until he was big enough for the 27.5 with 26 wheels.
The 24 turned out to be a good buy in that it lasted a few years and we managed to miss a step out.

Does it bother him if he can’t put a foot on the ground?

If the answer to this is no then you might get away with the 26 on a 27.5 frame on non techy stuff... my lad was riding my Med HT XC bike with his cranks fitted at that sort of size but only on non tech stuff and he can trackstand indefinitely (to all intents) and doesn't mind falling off (worryingly seems to quite like it sometimes) - from what you said about building confidence though I don't think it would be a good idea.

Ok, going for that chainring, another item off the list...Back to headset!

I'm getting there, but still trying to sort the fork on this. Any opinions on a Suntour Radion 27.5 fork. Seem to be not too much heavier than say a reba and relatively robust. Do you think these can be adjusted down to be usable for a 35kg kid? Thanks

If I'd noticed this thread earlier, I would have mentioned that I'm selling this:

https://www.gumtree.com/p/bicycle-accessories/cotic-soul-26-xs-frame-hope-headset-shimano-bb.-good-condition/1406186960

Just finished building my 8yr old's 26er. Will post a new thread for it. Had massive budget creep. It started out as a totally stock new Voodoo Nzumbi 13" from Halfrauds and ended up something quite different including new paint, RS Reba's, Deore brakes, Zee group, new superstar wide rim wheels Renthal bars, Thomsen stem and so on.

He absolutely loves it and flies on it. Saddle is pretty much towards the bottom right now, and he is running 152mm cranks and a 100m airshaft in the Reba's (which are 27.5 forks). I have a 120mm air shaft to go in once he is ready for it.

Looks properly pimp in Audi Nardo Grey with new blue graphics (very different to the original fluro orange).

Shameless opportunism...did you track down a suitable frame ?
My lads XS (13”) Spesh Hotrock frame is looking for a new owner.

I sorted my fram - got a new Brand X one. Fork is the main problem at the moment (thought I had sorted one, but hadn't!)