[Closed] help me understand cotic/Stanton product lineup

The bfe is the beefier frame so heavier and stronger intended for a bigger fork than the soul , they can still be bought with 26” wheels I believe, the soul is 27.5 and then the 29er is the solaris.

Where do you ride and what terrain, for me I’d be getting the soul, had a mk2 great bike, but eventually the wheels became too small for me

The Slackline is 27.5 and the Sherpa 29er. That's about as simple as it gets with them 2.

I'm still having massive Sherpa want..

In general Cotic go for longer chainstays and less BB drop while Stanton aim for short chainstays and a lower BB. The latter is more fashionable these days although I seem to prefer the former. Mind you, I never was fashionable 🙂

but eventually the wheels became too small for me

How does that work, then? I have MK2 Soul and despite riding it through lots of muddy puddles, the wheel size has resolutely stayed the same...

Soul will be a solid chunk lighter than the BFe as well. The new model BFe is a proper tank in the best possible way.

How does that work, then?

Growth spurt?

Soul is general all day riding uphill/across hill/down hill type stuff. Bfe is more winch and plummet/jumpy/looning around.

Geo wise, for a given fork length, the Soul BB is about 6mm higher and the SA about a degree slacker. Or alternatively with a 20mm shorter fork on the Soul is a degree steeper in HA but everything else is the same.

I had long demos on both. BFE is an absolute hoot*, but SOLID. For me at a bit over 10st, the Soul is WAY more comfortable (although still not "soft" like the 26" Soda it replaced) and gives away very little in the handling stakes, so I got one of those. Best climbing bike I've owned, and it's not slow descending.

*in a "if they hadn't sold out of med blue frames I'd have bought one there and then" kinda way!

In general Cotic go for longer chainstays and less BB drop while Stanton aim for short chainstays and a lower BB. The latter is more fashionable these days although I seem to prefer the former. Mind you, I never was fashionable

While this is a reasonable summary, I'd say the real cool kids are going longer on the chainstays these days.

Cheers all. Great help

@weeksy - totally missed the wheel size thing - thanks. Sherpa does look nice - really like the adaptable dropout sizes - really clever.

@wildhunter2009 @jonedwards - that's what I was missing - the Bfe being £150 cheaper I thought I must ahave missed something obvious - like it was a lot cheaper made - but if it is beefier that isn't it. Seems like a real bargain vs the soul?

What is the long vs short chainstay philosophy?

The BFe uses only an 853 down tube with regular chromoly for the rest of the front and rear end, the Soul uses a full 853 front triangle which is better, more expensive tubing. This is what makes the BFe cheaper, it just uses cheaper tubing. The fact it's built for burlier riding doesn't really have much of bearing on the price, aside from maybe thinking a cheaper frame is something people would less worried about hammering than a more expensive one.

I currently have a MK5 Soul and owned an old 26" BFe for a few years and both feel very different. Geometry aside (which is dramatically different!) the BFe felt fairly dull in terms of ride feel but solid, whereas the Soul feels a lot more comfortable and more agile. Not ridden the new BFe to compare but it really comes down to how you would want to build the bike up and where you want to ride. If you want an aggressive trail bike with a 120mm fork and a reasonably light build then go for the Soul, but if you want something a little burlier and a 140mm or bigger fork, go for the BFe.

Correct me if I'm wrong Cotic fans, but I believe the Bfe is normal double-butted 4130 cro-mo throughout while the Soul has an 853 main triangle.
Bit of a difference in weight and ride feel - as well as price.
(Happy to be corrected by cross-post above!)

Short chainstays = playful, easy to manual, funner.
Long ones = stable, more balanced handling (IMO), especially as the front ends have got longer, faster.

Bfe has an 853 downtube, the rest is 4130. Geometry wise they actually very similar when using the same size forks. Head angle is the same, seat tube on the BFe is a degree steeper, but otherwise they are within a few mm's of each other. Hadn't realised they were that close in terms of numbers!

Broadly...

Slackline is equivalent to the Soul.
BFE is more like the Switchback.
Sherpa is closer to the Solaris.
Switch9’er - no real Cotic equivalent as it’s like a 29’er Switchback.

Slackline is equivalent to the Soul.
BFE is more like the Switchback.
Sherpa is closer to the Solaris.
Switch9’er – no real Cotic equivalent as it’s like a 29’er Switchback.

This, but i'll add:-

Slackline is equivalent to the Soul (27.5, light, flexy, all-day comfortable)
BFE is more like the Switchback (27.5 hardcore hardtail)
Sherpa is closer to the Solaris. (29er, light, flexy, all-day comfortable)
Switch9’er – no real Cotic equivalent as it’s like a 29’er Switchback. (29er hardcore hardtail)

Might just be me, but the only thing that the Sherpa seems have in common with the Solaris is 29" wheels and 853 tubing - geometry, reach, stack, chainstay length etc are all very different.

Short chainstays = playful, easy to manual, funner.
Long ones = stable,

This is true, but only if everything else stays the same. It’s also true that lowering the BB makes a bike more stable (and therefore less “playful”). So a bike with longer stays can be just as playful as long as the BB drop is decreased in proportion, with the advantages of fewer pedal strikes and better climbing traction. The shorter, lower bike will rail corners better though. So, as always, it’s a trade-off.

Might just be me, but the only thing that the Sherpa seems have in common with the Solaris is 29″ wheels and 853 tubing – geometry, reach, stack, chainstay length etc are all very different.

Nope, not just you. I have a SodaMAX (same geo as SolarisMAX which it replaced) and a new gen Sherpa, they are most definitely different bikes!

Sherpa is easier to get the front up but suffers from pedal.strike (I ride mostly cairngorm natural single-track) and the SolarisMAX (to me) climbs and descends better ... (All IMHO).

@lawman91,@cha****ng - thanks guys, that's what I was missing.

Jamj1974, rickonwheels that's good info, cheers

First thought about the solarismax, missed the old colours sell-off. Fancied Sherpa, missed sale (sensing a theme here?) Thought 27.5 would be interesting, never had one, missed selloff of Soul in Mercury and magenta (shame, reminded me of the first bmx bije I had)

Sorry if I missed it or someone else has suggested this, but why not take advantage of Cotic's excellent touring demo service?

Here's a write-up I did of our one the other month, have since bought a SolarisMax...
http://unduro.co.uk/mtb/cotic-demo-day-solarismax-and-flaremax/

I could tell you it's the best hardtail I've ever ridden (which it is), but you might not be after the same kind of thing as me. They ain't cheap so makes sense to try first.

I could tell you it’s the best hardtail I’ve ever ridden (which it is)

<cough>SodaMAX</cough> 😆

Haha, that's my point really, I've not actually ridden that many HTs.

Sorry if I missed it or someone else has suggested this, but why not take advantage of Cotic’s excellent touring demo service?

I forgot they did that. That would be the smart thing to do.
Usually I decide what I think I want, narrow down the choices, try one or two (or worse, buy one), find out I was completely wrong about what I thought I wanted, lather, rinse, repeat.

Might just be me, but the only thing that the Sherpa seems have in common with the Solaris is 29″ wheels and 853 tubing – geometry, reach, stack, chainstay length etc are all very different.

Hence the word ‘broadly’ in my post. They are not the same, but they fill the same niche in each manufacturers lineup i.e. xc’ish 29’er hardtail. The OP asked for a breakdown - not a complete analysis of geometry!

The new longshot SolarisMax isn't really an XC-ish 29er hardtail. The geometry is much more like that of the Switch9er, excepting the higher BB and longer chainstays.

Both sit at around 65.5 deg head angle with a 140mm fork at sag, so about 64 deg HA static (for comparison to most hardtail geometry charts that aren't sagged). Not XC at all!

The new longshot SolarisMax isn’t really an XC-ish 29er hardtail.

I agree it's not XC-ish in terms of being superlight, steep head angle carbon XC race whippet, but from cotic's own description:-

"Run the minimum 120mm travel fork on the front, and the SolarisMAX is more than happy whizzing around 12hr long distance races, scrambling up technical climbs, or off on bike-packing adventures in the wilderness"

I.e. build it light with a 120mm fork and it's definitely suited to riding cross country, rather than just hammering downhill at a trail centre. I guess it can cross over into that territory though, depending on the build.

Stanton also have open days but you'll have to get yourself over to them, just south of Matlock. Although cotic are only just up the road so you may be able to make a day of it if you can arrange it, do one in the morning and one in the afternoon.

I have a Switchback with a 160 pike and it’s my go to bike for reasonably lairy downhill days in the UK (think BPW reds are a sweet spot for me on the bike) . The quality of the finish and feel of the bike is superb. In fact I enjoyed riding a hardtail again so much that I decided on a 29er for big pedally days out here in the Alps, I narrowed it down to the Stanton Switch9er and the Cotic Solaris Max and ended up going for the Cotic, mainly because of the longer chainstays and higher bb. The geometry is broadly similar otherwise (especially as Cotic measure the HA sagged-in fact it measures 63 static with a 140 x fusion) . It’s a lovely looking frame too.

Might be heresy but the older Solaris could be run with around 100mm rigid forks on the front. Anything longer us a little hard to find unless you run a fork intended for a fat bike.

What's the current thinking on non-sus forks on Soul/Solaris/Sherpa etc?

I got a soul last year, to me it’s a do it all bike. Comfy enough to be on all day and I do black runs on it. It’s the best bike I’ve ever owned and stunning to look at.
Another note is that I truly think x fusion forks (once you’ve actually got them set up right, which takes some faffing) are amazing.

To confuse you further, look here.

https://www.production-privee.com/en/product/shan/

I own one of these. Amazing hardtail. Ridden a bfe (felt harsh) in comparison.

Traditionally, the Soul and BFe were actually the same geo just very different in construction, with the Soul being all 853 up front and 4130 chainstay sand the BFe only having an 853 DT and 4130 everywhere else.

The two tend to split opinions. The Soul will make a well rowdy trail bike but some people imagine it must be the XC because the BFe exists. The BFe will build into a do it all that is stiffer than the Soul but will also cope with huge levels of full DH/Megavalanche level abuse.

The Solaris is basically a Soul that grew a bit to take 29’s. There’s a level of crossover, but ultimately they’re all different bikes that have different strengths and weaknesses.

What I would say is that not one of the bikes in either brands line up is anything but great. All get very good reviews indeed and all the bikes I have ridden from both have been brilliant.

Own a Soda and Switchback Mk2 Ti. Ridden the last 26” Soul and same vintage of BFe a fair few times. Had a short ride or test ride on original Solaris, last pre-Longshot Soul,current steel Slackline, Sherpa and Switch9’er. Not one of these has disappointed or underwhelmed.

The Shan is interesting. Clever changeable dropouts. They seem to be sticking with the classic shorter reach, Pace and Stanton are in the middle and Cotic are Looooong.

The two tend to split opinions. The Soul will make a well rowdy trail bike but some people imagine it must be the XC because the BFe exists. The BFe will build into a do it all that is stiffer than the Soul but will also cope with huge levels of full DH/Megavalanche level abuse.

Yeah, that's what got me a bit confused.

All get very good reviews indeed and all the bikes I have ridden from both have been brilliant.

No kidding! That's why they are a bit spendy and don't pop up second hand very often I reckon (grumble). Except for the Solaris on PB that got 2 dents in the TT from falling over in a doorway (?) but is 853 so the strength won't be affected at all.....

No kidding!

😉

I've had a few Cotic HTs- XS BFe, S Soul, 2 x S BFe650B- and now I've got a mk1 Stanton Switchback. All of them are ace but the Switchback's just that little bit [i]nicer[/i]. The new Cotics are waaaaay too long for me.

. The new Cotics are waaaaay too long for me.

Yeah, I noticed the recommended size for me went from a medium in the last generation to barely a small in the newer. I'm not that tall but I am +2-3 on the app index so getting the length without having the top tube too high is a nice change. I'd have to go to a large Kona Unit or Med. Longitude to get the reach but then I fear for my, er, bits

Ha, I went from no, you are definitely a medium (mk1 Soul), hmm you should try a large (mk1 SolarisMAX) to, no you’re definitely a large (SolarisMAX LS).

I’m definitely a large 🤣

Long top tube is essential to LS Geo thang. It definitely works for me (but I was in between sizes for knocking on 10 years).

The Sherpa I bought in large and it always felt that little bit too short but inline seatpin and shorter stem factor into the equation too... I’ll need to see how it feels when I finally get the 800mm bars fitted to it.

but eventually the wheels became too small for me

Probably a byproduct of induced 3D deflection on off cambers

Oh, one thing that I don't think has come up on this thread (edit - oh it has actually) - comparing e.g. Cotic Soul and Cotic BFe frames, one thing that's always been true is that the Soul is more expensive. I ended up with a BFe when what I really wanted was a Soul, based purely on price - I always assumed it was deliberately their "budget" option, not just stronger.

FWIW - never ridden a soul or BFe - in the end I sold the BFe before building it and bought a Sherpa 😉

Ha, I went from no, you are definitely a medium (mk1 Soul), hmm you should try a large (mk1 SolarisMAX) to, no you’re definitely a large (SolarisMAX LS).

Okay, a bit opposite to what I'd expect but makes some sense given they dropped the TT as well as lengthening it. I like the long

Can I ask what your numbers are (height, inseam bike or trousers etc?). Given I would be medium int the early Souls I'm curious how you ended up with a large!

. I ended up with a BFe when what I really wanted was a Soul, based purely on price –

Yep that's what got me looking again - the Bfe seems a bargain. Although given it would be a doitall the extra stiffness isn't necessary and may detract from the all day comfort XC type stuff it would spend some time doing.

in the end I sold the BFe before building it and bought a Sherpa 😉

Sounds like something I'd do.