[Closed] Help me tweak my nipples, as they're an odd shape

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Rorschach - Member

Indeed

And here was me hoping for pics.

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Take it to a bike shop. By virtue of the fact that you don't even have a spoke key....

I'm quite capable of buying and using a spoke key, but I'm unsure exactly which one I need due to the unusual shape of the nipples, hence my question.

Funny how this thread has gone the opposite way to my [url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/shimano-15mm-hub-convert-to-9mm ]recent one[/url] about a buckled wheel.
Thing is yesterday, I went at it with a spoke key (square, not [url= http://www.fullspeedahead.com/ ]FSA[/url] ) and, aside from rounding off a nipple (more on that later), I managed to get the wheel looking pretty good and straight for a first go. Started right on the 0% of Rorschach's chart. But with the thought I could take it to a bike shop if I made it worse. One of the (very soft alu)(and red) nipples rounded off - and I removed a red nipple from an old road wheel and replaced the one in my son's wheel. Pretty chuffed.
Go for it IHN! (If you can find the tool)

Are you sure the nipples are six-sided? Cos I've never seen such a thing, and it wouldn't be an improvement on four-sided ones. Unless you're talking about the [i]heads[/i] being six-sided… ie looking from the outside of the rim rather than from the hub: I don't know these wheels but if FSA do use concealed nipples then they'd need a surface on the head, such that they're adjusted from the outside.

(Edit: hmm, googling the wheelset shows a normal-looking spoke arrangement, but the wheelset does come with a spoke wrench supplied, which is unusual and suggests maybe it does have weird nipples.)

Have you checked the alignment issue is definitely the wheel? Reverse it and check whether the offset at the rim is at the same side or now on the other side.

Essentially, yes, tightening one side may be what you want. It's not quite that simple. But it could be.

Do you have a means to accurately align the wheel once you've fiddled with it? ie a jig and dishing stick or a decently-made substitute

I'm guessing you'll be looking for [url= http://www.wiggle.co.uk/park-tool-3-way-internal-nipple-wrench/ ]something like this[/url], and adjusting from the outside of the rim. I've no idea what size you actually need, I'm not familiar with those wheels.

You're right about how to change the dish but a quarter turn will have next to bugger all effect.

The only Hex shaped nipples i can think of off the top of my head are the Campag ones.

[url= http://www.wiggle.co.uk/campagnolo-eurusshamal-ultra-spoke-key/ ]Campagnolo spoke key[/url]

Are you sure the nipples are six-sided?

To be honest, I'm not, I need to have a closer look.

Reverse it and check whether the offset at the rim is at the same side or now on the other side.

I will do this, ta.

You're right about how to change the dish but a quarter turn will have next to bugger all effect.

To be honest, that's about all I need; the only slight off-centred-ness of the wheel is exacerbated by the larger tyres I've put on and the resulting [i]very[/i] tight clearance on one side. I just want to pull it in a bit, couple of mm tops.

If tightening a quarter turn all round on one side is not enough, do I tighten another quarter on that side, or loosen a quarter on the other?

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I'm quite capable of buying and using a spoke key

If tightening a quarter turn all round on one side is not enough, do I tighten another quarter on that side, or loosen a quarter on the other?

If tightening a quarter turn all round on one side is not enough, do I tighten another quarter on that side, or loosen a quarter on the other?

If the wheel is correctly tensioned when you start then you'd loosen the other side by a quarter. If it's a wheel that was at some time in the past correctly tensioned [i]and[/i] correctly dished then you'd normally only tighten, because spokes don't gain tension over time. But I guess you're probably looking at the former.

However, don't assume that if you tighten one side by a quarter turn and/or loosen the other by the same then you'll end up with a perfectly true wheel, even if it started out that way. You'll want a jig or a decent makeshift equivalent in order to check.

And don't forget to over-turn and then back off. So, for example, for a quarter turn, tighten by 3/8 of a turn and then loosen by 1/8. The friction in the threads once the spoke is in tension means that a) the first 1/nth fraction of any turn simply twists the spoke rather than adding tension, and b) if you don't back off by that same 1/nth fraction of a turn then you'll leave residual twisting in the spoke, which can lead to spoke loosening and/or early failure. Note that the "1/nth" fraction varies a little, which is partly why seemingly identical fine adjustments made all the way round a wheel won't quite turn out be identical. But 1/8th is a reasonable ballpark figure IME.

It's well worth reading a page or two on how to build a full wheel (eg Sheldon Brown's page) before tooling up, even for what looks like a simple adjustment. It's not difficult to build and true wheels, but if you want a good result it does help to understand some of the nuances of how a spoked wheel works.

Cheers Bez.

And don't forget to over-turn and then back off.

Take some of the guesswork out of it by sticking a wee bit of masking tape on the spoke as a flag, When you start turning the nipple you'll initially see the tape move which is the spoke twisting. When it stops moving as you continue turning is when the tightening starts. Tighten your quarter turn (or whatever) then back the spoke off until the flag is in its original position and you'll have taken any twist out. Sounds a little arcane but it's really obvious when you're doing it.

Edit - That tip courtesy of Roger Musson's wheel building course.

That's more like it 🙂

Are you sure the nipples are six-sided? Cos I've never seen such a thing, and it wouldn't be an improvement on four-sided ones

http://www.odysseybmx.com/dailyword/2009/04/g-sport-taper-hex-nipples/

Are you sure the nipples are six-sided? Cos I've never seen such a thing, and it wouldn't be an improvement on four-sided ones

Shimano M776 wheels had them too.

Cheers. Never seen those before. The tapering allays my concerns regarding the added faces 🙂

Okay, so, thread revival time.

I've double checked my nipples, and they are indeed six-sided and also slightly splined. They're kinda similar in shape to a tiny torx bit?

However, I did the 'take the wheel out and put it back in the other way around' thing and the offset/really tight clearance remained on the same side as bfore (it did not swap sides). I take it this means that the wheel is fine, and something else is off?

In the spirit of full disclosure, the hub is a 130mm, in a 135mm dropout, and I've added a 1mm washer on each side to space it out a bit (as recommended on a separate Google search result) and it's all held nice and secure with a Shimano QR.

Ah 🙂

So, yes, your wheels are almost certainly fine. You have an undersized hub and it would seem that perhaps one side of your frame is flexing more than the other in order to take up the slack.

Have you tried adding another pair of washers? Have you tried two on one side and one on the other? Have you tried a correctly sized hub? (No, really: I mean that will help check whether the issue is frame flex with the undersized hub or actual frame misalignment.)

Presumably you've added the washers under the locknuts rather than over them…?

PS I'm slightly curious as to who (presumably) replied to a question along the lines of "how do I turn a 130mm hub into a 135mm hub?" with "easy, just turn it into a 132mm hub", although not enough to actually want to know.

The washers are currently over the locknuts in a proof of concept, light pedalling around the block kind of way. I'm aware they'll have to go on properly if they're to stay.

I've only done one washer per side, I'm cautious about doing any more than that as obviously each washer means less axle in the dropout. To be honest, it's out by such a small amount I'm tempted to just leave it as is (with the washers in the right place, obvs). If I didn't have the bigger tyres on I probably wouldn't have even noticed.

PS I'm slightly curious as to who (presumably) replied to a question along the lines of "how do I turn a 130mm hub into a 135mm hub?" with "easy, just turn it into a 132mm hub", although not enough to actually want to know.

Pretty much, but this is all about taking blind advice from strangers on the internet innit? For all I know, it could have been you 🙂

Mm. Anyway, I'd suggest getting a bare-rimmed 135mm wheel in there and testing that both ways round, then you'll know whether you have a frame alignment issue.

If I do, is it a big problem, and if so, how hard/ expensive is it to fix? The bike's a friendly commuter/light tourer?

If it's a steel frame, you could get it re-set. Otherwise all bets are off. If it's within warranty you could (and probably should) try that route.

How big a deal is it? Sounds like it hasn't bothered you too much. (How long have you had the frame?)

Realistically, a small misalignment is rarely a big problem, but it affects tyre clearance and brake alignment. Hard to judge without seeing it in the flesh, but I get the impression this one is minor enough to live with.

Is the hub axle threaded? If so, you could rebuild the hub onto a 135mm-compatible axle with some washers, and if the frame's misaligned you could set the axle and washers to compensate.

But do all the checks first 😉

It's an alu frame, bought second hand from here, which I've just built up using parts from the old frame (which was obviously a 130mm spacing, doh)

I've got the discs working fine and it shifts fine. It's all good except the tyre clearance is tight on the drive side, it's probably only a couple of mm,(the tyre carcase itself doesn't rub, but the little new-tyre tyre-hairs do).

I think I'm going to live with it, and possibly put a bit of helicopter tape on the chain stay to alleviate any light rubbing from any mud/gunk/grit that may stick to the tyre wall.

Worst case is I go to thinner tyre on the back (it's 35c at the moment, I could always go to 32c if needs be, I'd just rather not).

Cheers for your help. Never did get an answer on the spoke key though 😉

Sounds like you are sorted, but this might help?

[url=

alignment test with string.[/url]

Bike shop will be able check/realign dropouts, it's quick and easy to do with the correct tool, I've realigned dropouts on alloy frames and forks with no issue.

Cheers for your help. Never did get an answer on the spoke key though

(suspect windwave would be more help in the long run though)