[Closed] Helmets - Again - I know

I think flying head first towards a tree and then picking bits of bark out my crash helmet swayed it for me

For those that do can I ask what actual evidence swayed you?

a) The quite obvious evidence that was my helmet lying in two pieces after a crash in 2012.

b) the 1" deep hole in my helmet structure after an accident which left me with concussion, whiplash and fractured nose three weeks ago.

Both of which I'm happy weren't my skull.

If you're happy not to, why not just leave it at that?

It's the law here, makes things simple. Just like seat belts.

Because I like to make my decisions based on the evidence TBH I am always happy to admit to being wrong and changing my behaviour. I get that Kryton I really do but it's not statistically significant is it.

the evidence is hard to get as it's really hard to do what would have happened analysis. Then there are some very limited studies on driver behaviour and lids, then there is some other stuff.

My evidence is that bones heal, brains don't.

A friend fell off at low speed without a helmet and ended up with a brain haemorrhage, emergency op and a good few months off work.

Because I like to make my decisions based on the evidence TBH I am always happy to admit to being wrong and changing my behaviour.

The quite obvious evidence that was my helmet lying in two pieces after a crash in 2012.

That wasn't enough for you? Do you have a wife & kids?

OK so here is my thought process, If nobody wore one as standard would London's cycling population [b]as a whole[/b] be safer or worse off? Just standing at the lights this morning I got thinking is it me or is cycling really that dangerous that we need helmets, the evidence seems lacking.

You may only need it if you fall off or get knocked off.
Don't fall off or get knocked off.

Is this a real thread or just a 'look at me' troll - really can't work it out.

Day to day cycling is such a generally safe activity that evidence other than anecdotal is very hard to come by as to whether helmets are essential safety device or a head ornament. Datasets of accidents are so sparsely and incompletely populated, that not much can be inferred from them either way.
All I can say is choose whatever evidence you like, and be thoughtful in your judgement of others who chose differently.

joolsburger - Member

For those that do can I ask what actual evidence swayed you, please can we not have the usual my friends, brothers, uncle's sister fell on her head and would have died without one?

First of all it feels 'wrong' when I don't wear one - similar to not wearing a seatbelt in the car - just because it is something that has become so 'normal' for me. If I don't wear a helmet when cycling it doesn't feel right.

Secondly, a friend used to always cycle to work without a helmet. He used to race, had ridden for years and was a careful rider. Driving to work one day, there was a commotion ahead with a woman guiding traffic (turned out to be another friend) with a mangled red steel road bike with green panniers crushed under a Ford Focus, which I immediately recognised as this friend's bike.
He'd been hit by the car at the roundabout - the driver basically crossed the roundabout without slowing enough to see if anything was coming from her right and t-boned him.
He smacked his head on the kerb by one of the roundabout bollards & split his head open near the temple. It all turned out OK, but he took a real whack to the head & now has a large scar. He now always rides with a helmet.

Third, a friend of my Wife's was cycling through her village without a helmet on. She doesn't remember what happened, but she fell off, hit her head on the pavement/road & is now virtually blind in one eye. The doctors don't really know why, but she lost sight straight away (I think she can just see murky grey shapes) and it has never come back.

Lastly, I crashed my bike into the back of a parked car while distractedly looking back at my rear mech to try & identify an irritating ticking noise - miraculously no damage to the car, but completely split my helmet in two.
Cycled home and had abrasion marks on my forehead from the foam inserts against my head during the impact but no other damage or effects (headache for a while). I can't be sure, but I don't think I would have got up & walked home after hitting a toughened glass window at about 16mph had I not been wearing a helmet.

EDIT - I meant to say "OOPS, I've not done that right 😆 " but forgot.....must have been that bang to the head.

Is this a real thread or just a 'look at me' troll - really can't work it out.

Yep, I'm giving up based on the fact there's enough content in here without my own contribution to convince me to wear one. He must be trolling, I'm busy hence I'm off.

Can I suggest that not looking where you're going and crashing is kind of a little bit your fault?

Kryton sorry you're off as this isn't a troll, I'd hoped for a logical discussion without too much emotion in fact.

In Holland no helmets yet no issues, here in London most people wear helmets yet 9 crushed fatalities this year. I simply wonder if helmets are giving some absolution for those who in fact should work to improve road safety through better means, addressing cause and not trying to mitigate effect? I'm not suggesting for a moment that helmet users are wrong but I genuinely feel safer and more engaged/connected to events without one.

sometimes i do, sometimes I don't, and if I'm being honest; logic or evidence rarely has anything to do with it.

Would you ride a bike across a playing field or down a medow type hill without a helmet.
I would.
Would you walk a logn a road without a helmet.
I would.
Helmets off some protection if you fall off a bike, then are not made to protect against impact with a fast movign car. A helmet would offer some small level of protection in this situation though, but it would offer the same protection if I was walking and hit by a car.
The risk of being involved in a accident if pretty darn small, so I don't ware a helmet commuting. Do what you feel comfortable with but jsut don't push it on to others. That is the biggest problem, people gettign so upset by other doing not the same thing that they do.

In Holland no helmets yet no issues, here in London most people wear helmets yet 9 crushed fatalities this year. I simply wonder if helmets are giving some absolution for those who in fact should work to improve road safety through better means, addressing cause and not trying to mitigate effect? I'm not suggesting for a moment that helmet users are wrong but I genuinely feel safer and more engaged without one.

In Holland no helmets yet no issues

Is this statement based on "actual evidence" too?

If you dont want to wear one it's your call, it's not law, but most people on here who cycle regularly will either know someone or have had a personal experience where they were bloomin glad they were wearing a helmet.

Day to day rides to local shops or bike path/canal pootles, no helmet
Anything I'd class as a "proper ride" either off/on road, helmet worn

Yes it is, Holland does have a lower fatality rate per 1000km ridden than any other EU state.

I see this is becoming adversarial and the evidence isn't actually evidence, so I'm out.

http://www.lfgss.com/conversations/128549/

come back when you have read it.

a) The quite obvious evidence that was my helmet lying in two pieces after a crash in 2012.

A thin piece of polystyrene snapped in two?

TheBrick - Member

Would you walk a logn a road without a helmet.
I would.

I'm less likely to fall over at 30mph when walking, probably less likely to fall full stop, and probably going to land better if I do.

That's not necessarily an argument for helmets- the risks are still so low. It just means it's not an argument for not wearing helmets, the risks aren't the same.

Me, I've smashed in a few helmets, perfectly happy to have been wearing them. But I've also been told by a doctor that my helmet saved my life, when I wasn't wearing one

joolsburger - Member
Yes it is, Holland does have a lower fatality rate per 1000km ridden than any other EU state.

Wearing a helmet makes me look like an idiot; they look utterly stupid.

But if in a 1 in a million accident happens and that helmet means I'll see my wife and kids that night, for £30 and looking like a plonker I am prepared to do it.

But if in a 1 in a million accident happens and that helmet means I'll see my wife and kids that night, for £30 and looking like a plonker I am prepared to do it

Why? Those look like pretty long odds. As I said in post one the chance of head injury walking or driving is higher so why no helmet then?

But if in a 1 in a million accident happens and that helmet means I'll see my wife and kids that night, for £30 and looking like a plonker I am prepared to do it.

Car or bike?

I never wear one for the majority of my cycling trips - though I suspect the evidence base I'm using for that isn't terribly relevant to you 😉

[quote=Kryton57 ]a) The quite obvious evidence that was my helmet lying in two pieces after a crash in 2012.

The plural of anecdote is not evidence.

I always wear one on the mtb. Over hanging branches provide enough reasons to wear one.
On the road bike - I very rarely wear one. It is so much more important to use whats in your head than whats on it.
I believe that wearing a helmet gives some people a false sense of security, that if they fall off, at any speed, the helmet will save them.

Helmets are only designed for impacts up to 15mph I read. The average road bike will be doing more than this. Then add in the oncoming vehicle...

Plenty of people I know remark when I don`t wear a helmet - yet ride like loons with theirs on.
Nope - Each to their own I say.

The docotor saying "waring a helmet saved your life" thingis really not based on anything. The doctor has no idea about how much energy was disapated by the helmet. Think there is a biaest toward thinging a bike helmet it like a motorbike helmet and assuming a greater level of protection. They offer protection no doubt the doctor guessing what saved you life if pretty much guess work of a high order.

@Northwind. I rearly get anywhere near 30mph commuting! My point was that if you would ride across a medow without a helmet on cycling is not considered too much of a danger. If you would walk along a road without a helmet then traffic is not considered too much of a danger. Now I know it not as simple adding thoese two dangers but my point is that the percption of the danger is sqewed. As I said do whatever is comfortable, but don't try and force something on to others and state that they are running a high risk. The risk is actually very low.

I wouldn't exactly class "a lower fatality rate" in Holland being the same as "no issues".

I look on it this way. If I am hit by a car or truck at speed then the helmet may not have much influence on my survival. When I fall off my bike and scrape your head along the floor, I would rather be wearing a helmet. At the end of the day it's your head and your choice.

TheBrick - Member

The docotor saying "waring a helmet saved your life" thingis really not based on anything. The doctor has no idea about how much energy was disapated by the helmet. T

If that was aimed at me, you misread- I wasn't wearing one and the doctor still told me it saved my life.

1 in a million is long odds. But I love my wife and kids.

Bike.

I play the lottery to win on longer odds

I know if I hit asphalt with my bone skull somethings going to happen.

With something inbetween the two I feel just alittle bit happier.

If its a long climb or a long flat bit off road I ALWAYS take my helmet off. It goes back on for dscents etc.

Dunno. I pretty much always wear one.

However, I managed to cycle into the back of a van in traffic a couple of months ago. My fault.

Left me with a broken nose and a cut to the bone on my nose - my helmet pushed my glasses into it and caused the injuries. I was pretty surprised as I know how to put it on properly, and it had retention system so didn't move much. Drs reckoned I would've been less injured if I wasn't wearing it.

Can't say it's made me more pro or anti helmet really.

colonel wax - Member
Dunno. I pretty much always wear one.

However, I managed to cycle into the back of a van in traffic a couple of months ago. My fault.

Left me with a broken nose and a cut to the bone on my nose - my helmet pushed my glasses into it and caused the injuries. I was pretty surprised as I know how to put it on properly, and it had retention system so didn't move much. Drs reckoned I would've been less injured if I wasn't wearing it.

Can't say it's made me more pro or anti helmet really.

Has it made you more pro or anti glasses? Since they were what injured you, and they didn't help you spot the van? 🙂

Wow. You are blaming the helmet?

Look at the bigger picture. Step away from the bike.

Strange,

Some people seem to think the only accidents that happen to cyclists must also involve a car, what a load of old shite.

Quick question, what exactly is so difficult or annoying about wearing a helmet? This thread is actually harder work than just popping one on.

My guess is that you have already had the accident and that the subsequent knock to the head has somehow caused you to start this wonderfully overdone thread, actually thinking it was a good idea. If a helmet stops me from making the same mistake then I might actually start wearing one whilst I walk down the street, cheers.

Sometimes I do,sometimes I don't.
Depends (on what I'm not sure.....wind direction probly).

@scandle42 Nothing is particualrly hard about wareing a helmet, but the same could be said for many other things. Knee and elbow pads e.t.c or someform of back protection. Or cyclign shorts, or cyclign spcific shoes. Its nice not to ware a helmet, just as its nice not to have to get dressed up to cycle. The risk is very small, really it is tiny, but a massive fuss it made about it for soem reason. It my choice. Why does it seem to upset you so much that others may not do the same as yourself.

@Northwind Appoligies. Missunderstood.

Wow. You are blaming the helmet?

Look at the bigger picture. Step away from the bike.

Me hitting the back of the van was clearly the main issue here. If I wasn't wearing my helmet I'd have banged my head, but in the opinion of a medical professional, not hard enough to have caused a serious injury.

My bike helmet moving pushed my glasses into my nose, so no I'm not blaming it but it caused more injuries than it prevented.

I know anecdote isn't evidence but I'm just trying to point out it's not as simple as "wear a helmet or you'll die", and using my own experience to show that.

I recently went out with a new road club. On their website they insist anybody riding with them must wear a helmet, or they can`t join the ride.

They all had helmets on - and they needed them on for sure!
Terrible/dangerous road positioning, failing to point out most hazards ...

I came to the conclusion that some people need them more than others!

I wear one for pretty much every ride. I've never thought why, I just do, but let me try here. I think it's more of a "why wouldn't I?" mentality, in my mind it's safer, modern helmets are comfortable, well ventilated and look OK too.

However, it's your call whether you do or not, for me I feel safer and see no downsides, you may disagree and that's fine. I don't think it's something to preach about one way or the other, it's a personal risk assessment and only you can make it.

there is no point trying to argue with someone who doesn't wear a helemt. They are morons and you'll never win

here is no point trying to argue with someone who doesn't wear a helemt. They are morons and you'll never win

Most hospital head injury admissions are vehicle occupants or pedestrians. Do you wear a walking or driving helmet? If not you are a moron.

Helmet benefits? Too modest to capture.

http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f3817.full?ijkey=I5vHBog6FhaaLzX&keytype=ref

The helmet debate is a great one for people choosing to believe what you want to believe. For some, the effect of a law enacted 30 years ago in a country on the other side of the world represents incontrovertible evidence. For others what happened to their Auntie Agatha when she fell off her bike while pissed represents the same thing. Wear one if you want, or don't. The evidence ain't there either way. Personally I wear one. It doesn't bother me to do so and it [i]might[/i] just save my life, but probably won't.

[quote=poah ]there is no point trying to argue with someone who doesn't wear a helemt. They are morons and you'll never win

IME there is no point trying to argue with people who dismiss others with a different POV as being "morons".

Most hospital head injury admissions are vehicle occupants or pedestrians. Do you wear a walking or driving helmet? If not you are a moron.

That's obviously because there are more motorists and pedestrians.. did you not realise that?

Cycling is riskier than walking. You are in traffic all the time, instead of occasionally, and energy is higher because you are moving faster. Hence, helmet. It's not complicated.

The anti brigade are angry about being portrayed as stupid, so are creating an entrenched position, repeating shaky arguments over and over again. They'd probably be reasonable if it weren't for the other side calling them stupid.

I wear one all the time because the reasons not to are not good enough. Simple as that. And if I wear one all the time it ceases to become an issue.

irc - I don't think that link says what you think it says 🙂

IME there is no point trying to argue with people who dismiss others with a different POV as being "morons".

having seen my fair share of people fall off and hurt their heads and my mum having seen a lot being a sister in A&E my evidence points to helmets stopping a lot of minor and major injuries.

If I fall off my bike I would rather not get hurt no matter how small.

Most hospital head injury admissions are vehicle occupants or pedestrians. Do you wear a walking or driving helmet? If not you are a moron.

I wear a seat belt when I'm in a car and if the risk to me falling over while walking was to be that great then yes I would wear a helmet. walking and cycling do not have the same risk.

[quote=poah ]having seen my fair share of people fall off and hurt their heads and my mum having seen a lot being a sister in A&E my evidence points to helmets stopping a lot of minor and major injuries.

Once again the plural of anecdote is not evidence.

[quote=poah ]I wear a seat belt when I'm in a car

Yet more people are admitted to hospital with head injuries from driving whilst wearing a seatbelt than from cycling.

Though I'm pleased to see you entering the debate rather than just flinging around ad-homs.

walking and cycling do not have the same risk.

Well..... they do, but that is because the walking includes a lot of the very young, the very old and the pissed.

27 fatalities per billion km cycling
29 fatalities per billion km walking

[quote=molgrips ]I wear one all the time because the reasons not to are not good enough.

How good are the reasons not to wear one whilst driving or walking? Or by "all the time" do you also mean whilst doing those things, walking down the stairs and having a shower?

Yet more people are admitted to hospital with head injuries from driving whilst wearing a seatbelt than from cycling.

But only 2 per billion km fatalities. As ever. Use whatever stat suits to support your case.

I'm not thrilled about being called a moron but there you go, with the lack of conclusive evidence ad hominem arguments are to be expected.

[quote=imnotverygood ]But only 2 per billion km fatalities. As ever. Use whatever stats which support your case.

Well what I'm taking from those stats is that if I drive to Cannock to ride FtD then I have a fairly similar (within an order of magnitude) chance of dying due to head injury on both the driving and cycling parts, so if it makes sense to wear a helmet for one part it probably makes sense to wear a helmet for the other part.

The big issue here is that those who think people are morons for not wearing helmets whilst cycling think that because there is some risk, however small, which might be reduced by wearing a helmet. Yet they completely dismiss any risk from doing other activities which they don't choose to wear a helmet for because the risk is lower than it is for cycling (for some definition of "lower").

So which is it going to be? Should you wear a helmet for any activity where there is a risk of head injury? Or should you determine whether to wear one based upon the relative risk? If the latter, how are you determining the required level of risk?

If you look back at the T.D.F its only been the last 15 years or so that they started wearing helmets, prior to that no one did. I have split two over the years with the over the bars experience. Still feel like a nob wearing one on the road bike.

I think as an individual, if there is lack of reliable data, then you just have to go with how you see it. I can tell you now that as a 50 year old car driver, my perception of the risk of me falling off and hurting my head at a trail centre is massively greater than hurting myself on the drive there.

How good are the reasons not to wear one whilst driving or walking? Or by "all the time" do you also mean whilst doing those things, walking down the stairs and having a shower

I am confident in my ability not to slip in the shower, and not to cross a road without looking. However I am NOT confident in other drivers doing the right thing when I share the road with them on my bike.

If there were no cars on the roads I would not wear a helmet when riding on them.

[quote=imnotverygood ]I think as an individual, if there is lack of reliable data, then you just have to go with how you see it. I can tell you now that as a 50 year old car driver, my perception of the risk of me falling off and hurting my head at a trail centre is massively greater than hurting myself on the drive there.

People are notoriously bad at correctly assessing risk (no insult intended - my instinctive assessments are probably as bad as anybody's). You're probably right, but the stats don't suggest that, and personally I've never damaged a helmet at a trail centre so don't even have any personal anecdotal evidence to rely on.

No-one will ever be right about helmets until proper scientific testing is done rather than purely anecdotal nonsense.
Need a crash test dummy with full head/brain sensors to repeat the numerous types of accidents and falls from a bike. Only when looking at the test result data can anyone then make an informed decision or argument.

Even then a crash test dummy cannot react the same way as a person. I have been knocked off my bike twice and both times damaged hands/arms but not my head. I also spent many years riding BMX and again always protected my head with hands and arms, rolling etc,.

If you think a bit of foam will save your life then good for you, wear a helmet - but don't make everyone wear one.

molgrips - you're not answering the question. What are the good reasons not to wear one whilst driving or walking? If you wore one all the time to drive, I'm sure it wouldn't be an issue.

Walking - I am less likely to sustain a head injury

Driving - I have other protective equipment

If I may ask a question - can you give me a good reason NOT to wear one?

I've busted two in crashes, saw stars in the 2nd one & was dazed for a bit. Dunno what the outcome would've been if I hadn't been wearing a lid.

I don't see how either of those are good reasons not to wear one (in the latter case we've certainly already established that actually car drivers still get head injuries despite the other protective equipment). Reasons why you might not need to wear one, but not a reason not to wear one.

Though if that is really what you meant, then a good reason not to wear one whilst cycling is that the risk isn't very high.

Yup I've got a good reason - it's completely pointless. Statistcally speaking you're [i]literally[/i] no better off wearing one for cyling on the road at normal commuting speeds in commuter traffic. So why bother? I don't have insurance for personal lightning stikes or wear one walking, driving etc etc. It's a total placebo based on the best current evidence. I had a car crash in my MX5 which wrote it off but I tell you I wouldn't have walked away had I not been wearing my lucky boxer shorts, they 100% saved me, it's completely obvious they did.

For all those 'moron' statements, does the same apply if you're dutch?

[img] ?w=547&h=311[/img]
[img] [/img]

Or are you only a moron for not wearing one in the UK?

if it's the latter then I agree, we are morons for letting our transport infrastructure get to the point where a simple and safe activity like riding a bike* to the shops requires you to wear a protective hat in case someone else drives into you. Think about where the danger is really coming from.

For sport and offroad cycling I think wearing one has a more obvious argument as the risk of a self-induced off is increased and they're useful for both major impacts and minor ones.

* it really is safe, for city utility cycling the chance of a [i]non-vehicle induced[/i] head injury (minor or major) is similar to walking.

** Yes I wear one 99% of the time

If I may ask a question - can you give me a good reason NOT to wear one?

If that is true then you have to weigh the extra risk of getting hit and being saved (or not) by the helmet against the lesser risk of getting hit and being more greatly injured/killed (or not) by not having a helmet. Which is where it gets complicated. FWIW I always wear a helmet for MTB or "proper" road rides but generally not for popping to the shops or my (traffic-free except for a couple of miles) commute. I always wear a hi-vis jersey though (just to throw another spanner in the works).

Would it bother you at all if you learned that Ian Walker's second study on the subject failed to replicate this finding?

No, as it's not the reason I choose not to wear one sometimes.

[quote=amedias ]** Yes I wear one 99% of the time

Oh what a cop out 😉 - I'm still claiming I don't wear one for the majority of my cycling journeys*

[quote=imnotverygood ]Would it bother you at all if you learned that Ian Walker's second study on the subject failed to replicate this finding?

It would bother me about 50% 😉

*read wording very carefully before arguing

Yup I've got a good reason - it's completely pointless.

I disagree. You'll have to do better than any of the currently available studies to prove that hitting your head on tarmac is not made better by covering it with two inches of foam. As detailed in irc's link earlier, the evidence is inconclusive.

does the same apply if you're dutch?

Probably not.

What about the theory that wearing a helmet makes drivers give you less space (and therefore increases your chances of being hit?)

Not good enough for me.

[quote=molgrips ]I disagree. You'll have to do better than any of the currently available studies to prove that hitting your head on tarmac is not made better by covering it with two inches of foam.

Pedestrians also hit their heads on tarmac - is that not made better with some foam? Drivers hit their heads on various hard bits on the inside of their cars - is that not made better with some foam?

I disagree with your "good" reasons not to wear a helmet whilst doing other activities - it appears your reasons for those are relative risk, yet you're not applying similar standards to reasons for not wearing one whilst cycling.

Haven't read all the responses here, but this is my take.

Off-road, definitely without question.

On road, not so sure. The helmet will not prevent much in terms of a car thumping your head, can help with direct contact with the road or kerb though.

It's about being happy with the trade off of potential risk here.

I don't like wearing a helmet for road cycling, and probably only wear one on the road bike for say 10% of the time I ride road.

Thankfully it's still rider choice.

Suppose I'm in the minority these days, but I do get a little fed up of some sanctimonious comments about my choice not to wear one.

Suppose I'm in the minority these days, but I do get a little fed up of some sanctimonious comments about my choice not to wear one.

There are some ****ing tossers out there. I've been "told off" at grizedale a few times for riding round the North Face Trail without a helmet! Not everyone's a middle aged IT manager who can't ride off road without completing a skills course......

On the road I prefer to wear one since you can end up going pretty quick down some hills. Popping into town on the shopping bike; no point.