[Closed] Having stupid ideas about hardtails...again

I did this a few years ago, going from a Mondraker Foxy XR to a Ragley Mmmbop, as it suited my riding much better, and have since gone from the Ragley to a Stooge.

On occasion, I do still hanker for something fully bouncy, but on the whole I'm more than happy on a hardtail/rigid. Modern hardtails can get down pretty much everything a full sus can, it's just a bit slower, so if speed isn't your primary concern I see little reason not to make the move.

I have kept a HT - ride it in the winter and various other times. The FS is way more comfortable - but requires more looking after.

HTs (for me) have a sweet spot around 140 mm , and more than that the geo change as the forks compress is unruly.

Sounds exactly like all the same reasons I've got a Bird Forge currently being built up to run alongside my older Aeris.

I really like modern gnarly hardtails - yes they're a little slower on rough downhills and through looser corners when you're right on the limit but I think they're often more fun. They are definitely more tiring though, so bear that in mind. Good reason to keep fit and strong.

Regarding the geometry changes as the fork compresses, I think that's a non-issue if the bike is slack enough (mine's just under 64 deg static) - I know hardtails get 1-2 deg steeper at sag whilst full-sus bikes get a little slacker. It's easy to set up a hardtail with the bars too low because when you sit on the saddle the bars are higher than when you stand up, especially pointing down a hill.

When the fork dives on a full-sus under braking it steepens just the same as a hardtail and if there isn't enough anti-rise in the suspension linkage then the back end can stand up and steepen it even more. Yes, when you fully bottom out both then the hardtail steepens whilst the full-sus stays even, but even full bottomed (150mm travel) out my hardtail has a 70 deg head angle, and that only happens with hucks to flat, the rest of the time I don't get past 130mm travel (it ramps up a lot after that).

I've had a full sus as my main bike for probably 15 years, but I'm always "hardtail curious" as that's what I first rode. Tried a few and was always disappointed and pretty much abandoned them for a full sus.

But recently i bought and On One Scandal and I love it. The key factor is the geo is pretty similar to my full sus so the fit and feel felt perfect from the off. It's now the bike i ride the most. I wouldn't ditch the full-sus completely, for days away, uplifts and big days I like having the option of the full sus.

Also getting the urge to build one up, not had one for 5 years now (rigid fatbike doesn’t count)

I’m off to bespoked in October, if I can’t find something I like there, I figure they aren’t for me.

Might be worth adding Stanton to the list of bikes to research - a few different LLS hardtails in their line up. Maybe a Stif Squatch too.

Keep (buy) the (my) full (large) sus (Scandal) too

Pace hardtails use sliding dropouts. As does Specialized Fuse, but that might not be 'core enough for you.

https://pacecycles.com/pages/rc529steel-hardtail
https://pacecycles.com/pages/rc627steel-hardtail

I love hardtails, I really do, but my last one was a Nukeproof Scout 29 and I just used to feel hammered whenever I went out on it. Sold it a couple of years ago, but still hanker after one and toy with ideas and set ups and single/dingle speed and all of that, whiling away the time type stuff, pretending I have the budget...

My go to bike is always my hardtail, I think it's way more fun and engaging than my full sus. Both are pretty modern and long low slack etc. The only time the hardtail is really let down is seated pedaling over rough ground, you just get bounced around and can't keep momentum as easily and get more tired from having so hover over the saddle where you could stay seated on a full sus.

My rule of thumb is that uplift or longer days are for the full sus and shorter more xc rides are more hardtail.

i fancied a hardtail for a while, despite a couple of my riding buddies telling me 'not to waste my money'. Earlier this year i picked up a Ragley Big Al, not quite 'hardcore', but fairly modern trail bike geo.

And i absolutely love riding it. It just makes it a different sort of challenge. And my strava times show that i am usually only a handful of seconds slower than my FS times. And i keep up more or less the same with my buddies.

Would i want one as my only bike.... well maybe actually, i can certainly think of worse things!

Although there is quite the challenge of riding the more gnarly end of trails on it and keeping things together. I lost a pedal a couple of times recently.... which is probably why so many hardcore hardtailers run clips.

But if its an itch that needs scratching, i wouldnt hesitate!

I only ride my Solaris max these days- Lake District riding, but don’t tend to be out more than 3-4 hours. Love it.

I think for me half the problem is that the geo of the modern hardtail is similar to a full sus, so you can go just as fast, but without any get out of jail card (aka 150mm of rear travel...). If I did end up getting another I think I'd want it small and playful rather than long and slack. The ying to the yang, but that's with the luxury of being able to keep 2 or 3 bikes. If I had to only have one bike it would be a simple, single pivot full sus for year round reliable riding.

Thanks for all the answers, very interesting experiences.
The main thing barring me from the HT is that I would have to sell the AM9 to build it. Can't really justify having 2 MTBs right now.
Would an aggro HT actually be better for bikepacking and Shotgun riding than the AM9 with lighter wheels?

As far as a frame shortlist, I'd have these requirements:
- sliding dropouts. Because I want it to be singlespeedable in an emergency (been there, done that in the past, if I'm letting go the rear suspension then I want this)
- at least 2.5 tyre clearance, 2.6 would be a plus. This excludes the Pace, I believe
- very slack HA, because dynamic geometry exists

Modern LLS hardtails are a paradox.

Brilliantly stable and competent in almost every guise, but unless they’re specced carefully and thoughtfully designed, they can have all the drawbacks of a decent modern FS and none of the benefits because, well; it’s a hardtail.

Many can be just like full-sussers on the climbs and the flats – sluggish and uninspiring - missing the pep and instant feedback that makes a good hardtail so great feeling on a climb or zipping along flat single track. IME, they’re not really any slower than more trail focussed HT, but their competent nature can make easier rated trails feel rather dull to ride and lack challenge.

Despite this, they can be great technical ascenders due to their length and grip (for a hardtail). They can be brilliant descenders compared to hardtails of yesteryear, but they’re no way as good in the proper rough stuff as an FS bike because there is no substitute for rear travel.

What they ARE good for IMO is for people who want to tackle harder terrain searching for a more direct and visceral (harder) experience without the insulation of full suspension. You need more skill to ride a hardtail well in chunder and it’s rewarding experience for those looking for the satisfaction of skills and the body pushing closer to the limits.

Points to note IMO.

Dynamic geometry changes from big forks exists. But its effects on riding are over-stated.

LLS hardtails may mimic something similar to FS geometry, but a big fork with a slack head angle WILL NOT stop the back hooking up in chunder.

In view of the above comment, body english needs to be accentuated to get the best of these bikes – this can make you tired quicker, depending on your fitness. RIDE IT LIKE YOU STOLE IT on the good bits.

Because they need a bit more 'throwing shapes' to make them spark, those used to minimal inputs on twitchy, steep more rearward weighted bikes may not put enough in and accuse them of being dull and sluggish. Re-learning is required.

It’s perfectly possible to still ride off the back of an LLS bike of any kind, but doing so on a HT is worse because there’s nowhere to hide back there because there’s no suspension and thus little grip. RIDE THE FORK.

Getting a bike with wheels in different time zones won’t automatically make you pin the front for grip unless you set it up right. Old school trail riders seem to be the worst at realising this.

You do not lean forwards more on these bikes because they are long. Your entire center of mass slides forwards from the saddle on-wards. The extra front center length is there to make sure you don’t get scrunched up by doing so.

Definitely more tiring than a FS, after a couple of days in the Lakes on mine my legs were toast, glad I brought my 150mm FS bike too which I rode for the remaining 3 days.

However, the HT is loads more fun and playful, and with an extra wheelset which I still need to build, it'll do for gravel type riding too.

That came out a bit long. Sorry.

“ That came out a bit long. Sorry.”

It’s an interesting read though!

As you’ve seen on my rambling Zero AM thread, that’s not a LLS steel-framed 29er (on wide tyres) but more of an MLvLS (medium long, very low, slack) - reach is ~455mm sagged, ~440mm static, I’m 179cm - with an alloy frame and only 27.5x2.35 tyres front and rear.

I feel like I need to ride it back to back with a longer steel 29er to see if there’s the difference I’m suspecting - because I don’t think the Zero is at all dull on easier trails despite being great at gnarly stuff.

But the flipside is that although it’ll keep you safe-ish on the gnarly stuff and is pretty confidence inspiring, that responsive back end (short chainstays too) is absolutely brilliant at letting you know when you’re riding badly - literally from hero to zero in moments!

I guess people will feel differently about a hardtail depending on what you currently and have previously ridden. Plenty of my riding buddies think I'm mad for riding a hardtail on the same trails as them but I think I am lighter on my bike and pick lines more carefully so don't ride any slower. If you're used to full sus then it might be a bit of a shock but a hardtail needs to be ridden like a hardtail.

When it comes to overall weight, a hardtail isn't going to be hugely lighter than an equivalent full sus. If you want lighter then you would probably need to have more fragile parts and might end up with more breakages.

I have a bfe max which I use for night rides and winter mainly. Its really fun to ride on most stuff for a couple of hours but I find it just generally unpleasant on rough terrain. I have an ibis ripmo I use for long rides, trips etc. If I had to chose the hardtail would go but its great having both

I'm currently going exactly the other direction. I've just ordered an AM9, and an considering getting rid of one of my hardtails. I have a Solaris MAX and a Stanton Switchback - the idea was to see if I could do everything I wanted on a bike without buying a full-sus, but I've admitted defeat.

It all depends on your riding though. I'm still working on harder trails, and want to go faster with less bumping around. The Stanton is beautiful downhill, although I struggle a little elsewhere on it as I'm 6'5 (and don't have a dropper on it). I also get tired pretty quickly when doing BPW and the like. The SolarisMAX is very capable everywhere, but doesn't quite have the zing of the Stanton.

I've done exactly what you're thinking OP and ditched the 160mm full suss for a hardtail (bFeMax) and have absolutely zero regrets. It's a much more versatile bike for what I want it for (Local laps of the woods, bigger rides on the moors and in the Lakes and then easy laps with my daughter with the shotgun). Not found anything that I wouldn't ride on it that I would have on the full suss even if the riding is a bit more 'involved' but then that's no bad thing.

I’ve got a moxie with 160mm forks. I haven’t ridden my G160 since I bought it. Do it, it’s the best bike I’ve ever owned.

I’ve got a gen 1 moxie which I’ve had for almost 4 years which tells a story as I’m a serial bike swapper.
I also have full sus bikes but on a lot of terrain this is equally as fast and I don’t find it more tiring than a fs either, if anything I find it way more exhilarating riding it than a fs.
Each to their own but I love having the option in my garage, these bikes are amazing.

I’m selling mine as find it a bit too fast and flighty. Sensa Merano from Merlin a few months back 🙄

Looking at the hardtail class times on enduro events, it seems like they are not having much of a handicap

I'm just as slow on my short, tall, steep hard tail as I am on my long, low, slack full suss

It really depends where you ride/race. If there's not much elevation and lots of tight stuff to make the trail/stage longer, then a hardtail, whatever the geometry will go well in my experience. Sure flat out rocky/rooty long descents are better/less fatigue on a full suss. But if you don't have those on your doorstep then to me hardtail all day long.

The Moxie Mx3 rides really well. I took it around the Golfie in the Scottish Borders and was really impressed what you can throw it down and not get that beat up. Previous HT bikes were a BFE max and a Torrent S1. They just felt a little harsher and no way as confident on the rough tracks there.

I have a RIPMO and another steel FS both 160mm forked bikes and I think riding steeper terrain I actually prefer the Moxie. I have a 160mm dvo fork and hunt enduro wheels and it feels great. It also climbs fantastic. Most rides I will take it over the FS bikes. A long all day rough mountain ride/munro I will take a fs bike or as of late just switch to clips for that.

https://imgur.com/Js3OoTc

I can recommend the Banshee Paradox V3 with a 150mm Zeb up front. Very capable and fun.

I can also recommend the RSD Middlechild Ti which is amazing. It manages to smooth the trail out beautifully but shoot forward when you drop the hammer.

Wheel choice is very important with a hardtail. You need softer wheels.

(and don’t have a dropper on it)

🤯

Just done the same having had a Mondraker Crafty 27+ for the last 3 years iv'e just gone back to HT frame with a Mondraker Vantage 27+ just sold the frame (crafty) and swapped all the parts over & loving it

The main thing barring me from the HT is that I would have to sell the AM9 to build it. Can’t really justify having 2 MTBs right now.

What (hear me out) if you go "bargain bin" for the HT (initially at least)? Can you justify an 'A' and a 'B' bike sort of arrangement?

You've started off by lusting over higher priced nice, new shiny HTs but still have some (reasonable) reticence about giving up a bouncer that you like. Your major reasons for considering a HT are bike packing and riding with the kids neither of which really needs a blingy LLS, sexy new HT.

So Why not just dip your toe with something 2nd hand and/or lower spec than your initial expectations?

The risk is that you flog the AM9 and spend all winter assembling the ultimate HT, only to discover it's not covering all of your riding needs next summer and there's no easy 'Ctrl+Z' at that point.

A lot of people (just sift through STW) have faced a similar conundrum ended up keeping their FS and buying a more basic HT/Gravel/hybrid as a mile munching, bike packing, towpath trundling with the kids type option while still being able to indulge in some Gnarr if necessary...

You've definitely started with the right mindset, thinking about the likely use cases rather than some idealistic idea of what you'll be getting up to.

I can recommend the Banshee Paradox V3 with a 150mm Zeb up front. Very capable and fun.

I can also recommend the RSD Middlechild Ti which is amazing. It manages to smooth the trail out beautifully but shoot forward when you drop the hammer.

Wheel choice is very important with a hardtail. You need softer wheels.

Posted 3 hours ago

TheGhost is Steve from Hardtail party and I claim my £5. 😁

Love my Pace RC529.

My longest standing bike which I sold and missed so much I bought the same bike back off the chap I sold it to a year later.

Sliding dropouts
29
27.5+
Mullet (if that floats your boat)
120-150 travel.
Currently with rigid forks in 29+ rigid set up.
Does a bit of everything and I love the versatility. Plus it looks good 🤩

I'm now HT-only (put a Trust linkage fork on it to even out the front-end dive effect too).

As others have said, they are more tiring. But don't make the mistake of thinking that's just a bit more tired at the end. Once your legs get tired, they stop absorbing as much, but keep on pedalling. So you feel every jolt. Less fit riders will find them harsher than fitter riders.

If you ride steep, rocky terrain it's going to be more of a shock than if your local rides are dirt and a few roots.

I have a Macride and also tow a Weehoo kids trailer. I'm not sure the HT is actually any more practical as it still has "modern" mtb axle spacing, lacks lots of rack bolts and has a small rear triangle (short seat tube, LLS style) so I don't think there's automatically a benefit - will depend on what you choose though.

For me, the hardtail is more fun when I've ridden the FS for a while, then the FS is more fun when I've ridden the hardtail for a while.

Ultimately, neither is actually more fun, it's just nice to change. If I just had one, I'd probably keep the FS because it's more capable anywhere - although emotionally I prefer my HT (Stage 5 and Soul).

You talk about a shotgun seat too - I only use that on the FS, my 2 yo prefers it.

@Scienceofficer I’m a big fan of Hardtail Party but I’m not Steve 🙂

Weirdly though I have just ordered an Onyx Vesper rear hub for a wheel build.

Damn. Looks like I wont be getting that fiver.

You can see why I thought it though - the exact same bikes!

@Scienceofficer has it spot on with his first lengthy ramblings 😉

This thing is nuts, you just got to know how to ride it..

[url= https://i.postimg.cc/T1y6Pc1w/20210829-092747.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.postimg.cc/T1y6Pc1w/20210829-092747.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

I would like to like hard tails, but without spunking cash on another frame it ain't happening.

Of 189 consecutive days on the bikes, 4 have been on the '15 BFe. The other 185 on the HB.160.

The FS is always the first choice. Just better everywhere and the maintenance thing is rubbish. Just under 3 years on the original bearings.

YMMV.

Hi all,

3 weeks delayed... Thanks for all the answers. I wasn't expecting so much feedback from you.
I took the last weeks to keep riding the FS and tried to examine my use case. In the end, I concluded that my current bike is likely the best option:
- despite what some say, I still struggle to see the advantages of an hardtail for both Shotgun riding and the kind of bikepacking I'm into. The AM9 is a very efficient pedaling platform and extremely reliable and comfortable.
- I'm moving to Switzerland in a month and a half, so I guess the terrain there should be even more unforgiving for hardtails.

Once again, thanks for all the comments

yeah you don't swap the AM9 for a hardtail, the hardtail should compliment the AM9. Hence why I now have a Whyte G160 and a Ragley BigWig. Only just got the BigWig but it's brilliantly bonkers in a different way to the Whyte, but the Whyte will likely retire from Mac-Ride/Shotgun duties now as there doesn't seem much point in that

You need both.

The FS is always the first choice. Just better everywhere and the maintenance thing is rubbish. Just under 3 years on the original bearings.

Ha! I owned a FS for less than a year - a Kona Hei Hei Trail - and trashed the bearings and headset in that time. After that I'm fairly confident I'll not buy another.

I also don't get the whole getting beat up on a HT. I find dragging a bouncy sofa around just as hard work, even if my trail HT is weighty.

I bought a bfemax at the start of the year and it is absolutely amazing! So much fun and real capable even when I would think a hardtail would be struggling, rough, rocky, rooty natural stuff. It just works though! There are times I struggle to keep up with people on enduro bikes but not by a big margin. All my mates told me hardtail were rubbish and that I would regret it
It gets better every time I ride it!
However I also have an enduro bike, I wouldn’t want to be without that. The hardtail is more tiring, I do get beat up more but I agree the maintenance thing isn’t a massive issue. I work on my hardtail as much as my enduro bike. That may be because I try and ride it the same down the same trails though!
The solution is definitely own both!

I also don’t get the whole getting beat up on a HT.

You're not riding it properly then.

reeksy
Free Member

Ha! I owned a FS for less than a year – a Kona Hei Hei Trail – and trashed the bearings and headset in that time. After that I’m fairly confident I’ll not buy another.

So you're telling us that Kona specc'd shit bearings throughout? Otherwise you're in for a shock when you realise hardtails have headsets too

I also don’t get the whole getting beat up on a HT. I find dragging a bouncy sofa around just as hard work, even if my trail HT is weighty.

2 different things there. A heavier full-sus bike would take more effort climbing, and might be slightly less efficient. But talking about getting beaten up is because of the rider doing all the rear-suspension work for the hardtail regardless of the weight of it

I actually find my enduro bike slightly easier to climb hills in some ways. Any remotely tech climb is easier, it feels like I’m dragging the hardtail over stuff more than my enduro bike. I’ve had full suss bikes that have eaten bearings in 3 months and other that went 18 months with zero bearing issues.
To be fair the hardtail is harder to ride in most situations, but it’s so good! I toyed with just owning a hardtail for a year but I’m not 100% sure my ageing body could handle that abuse all the time!
Got a mate in Scotland that ditched his full suss bike a year ago. He podiums in races on the hardtail all the time. He can still walk so maybe I worry over nothing!

A bloody PP Shan gt that keeps haunting me has been offered to me for sale again this morning, for a stupid low price !
I really cannae justify it but Christ what a bike it is. Had it for 2 days at GT and it’s mental.
Price is less that the cost of the carbon wheels, let alone the xtr and the DVO diamond front end ! Lol

Then share a link so someone else can take it and solve your problems for you 😉

i can't not ride my hardtail.
since i started riding 30 months ago, it's been through 3 evolutions to where it is now (frames upgrades etc, essentially the 4th bike)
My FS i built from scratch 17? months back hasn't changed, except for repairs, doesn't appear i've even ridden it in the past 2 months..and i think then it was for BPW as my first visit i kinda thought it made sense.

I get by with a HT (Ragley BigWig) as my main MTB (also have a 45650b set up SS). It's a great bike. I sold a 26er FS to build the Ragley, convinced that, with 150mm forks and 29er 2.5/2.6 tyres, it would be all the bike I need.

It kind of is, mostly. And it would always be the bike I'd ride most. But I've decided I (think I) need a FS alongside this. Techy, rocky, steep stuff, it does, but I think I lack the confidence and ability to do it justice, and feel a FS would help me out more ...

But maybe I just need to grow some. And/or do some skills courses ... 🤷

You’re not riding it properly then.

Ha - that's quite funny. My mates on FS bikes don't seem to think that.

@mashr
The Kona had a crappy FSA headset.
The quality of the bearings on the linkages wasn't at question, more the regularity and cost of maintenance proved to not be worthwhile. I have at least as much fun on the HTs, i've ridden them faster on many downhills and on all uphills.
One of the steel HTs is heavier than the carbon FS was.
I feel the pedalling is more efficient on climbs including tech sections that I can clean although my FS buddies sometimes can't.

And yes, i understand the concept of having to do the rear suspension's work with your legs - i'm saying it doesn't concern me for the blue/red/black riding I do.

In the $/smile measurement my HT leaves me with cash to spend on replacing bent rims.

On the subject of hardtails...... this is awesome 👌

Yeah, i watched that. It's got my kids interested in racing...so thought we could get into it, but the oldest is a year off the youngest age group.

I've a mate who competes admirably on a Bigwig at enduros.

Then share a link so someone else can take it and solve your problems for you 😉

Not advertised but it’s this.

https://i.ibb.co/jRHHpZd/6-D511-FD3-9555-4382-BA6-A-19-E0798-E201-C.jp g" target="_blank">https://i.ibb.co/jRHHpZd/6-D511-FD3-9555-4382-BA6-A-19-E0798-E201-C.jp g"/> [/img][/url]" alt="Shan" />

I've got a 2015 dartmoor hornet that runs on 26 inch wheels. Easy to jump and flick about although the dropper could be longer. Built up with mostly spare parts and the odd new ones. Complements my patrol very well when I don't need a big heavy enduro bike to ride. 150mm 27.5 pike

It isn't LLS and there are comparable HT out there if I wanted to swap to something newer like the Nukeproof scout 275.

You should always own a hardtail IMO. I went from FS to HT so many times.. often when the full suss was boring on local trails (spesh enduro) and swapped everything over for a stanton slackline. Ended up going back to a FS when the stanton was a bit of work to handle at BPW (esp rim dinger!)

Saying that i've always had a short travel steel hardtail - currently a voodoo wanga in ridgid format.

Agree with @trickydisco but I would also add that I think its important not to go too OTT with the hardtail - I've done the whole steel, massive forks, enduro-style hardtail and it jsut gets frustrating - doesnt really weight much less than the FS bike, goads you into riding the same stuff at the same speed and then just isnt as good.

Keep the weight down, the geo a bit more conservative, the travel down a touch, and they are much more fun - fast, reactive and make you ride things differently. I dont mean going full Nino Spec Scott Scale, but not too much as above.

Couldnt agree more with @snotrag
started off on a vitus nucleus, then built up a DMR trailstar with 170mm forks, then went 160/130 (dual position) then converted them to 140mm coil, then changed to a sonder transmitter at 150mm, then onto a 130mm sonder signal (29er), i feel a good 130mm (push acs3) fork on 29" wheels seems adequate, and 140-150 on 27.5 for all round riding.
if you built up an all travel hardtail, it literally will just sit in the same position as your full sus, while keeping it on the lighter side and slightly dialled back will still give a good overall on riding options, but also make the more boring stuff more interesting.
Im planning on getting a set of light wheels and fast rolling tyres for the signal so i can swap wheels and use to commute (and get rid of my flat bar gravel hybrid thingy)