[Closed] Have we done the custom Nicolai / Mojo complete bike package

i saw that earlier, would love a nicolai again, you want to do me a favour again shredder....... 😀

Ha still time for me to call my favour back in yet Ton you is in debt 😉

it will be a pleasure mate.

Looks pretty awesome, the aftercare and set up days sound nice as well.

[img] [/img]

it is pretty cool, whats it for?
maybe im stuck in the oldskool geo mindset, but would a 63 head angle be ok for up and along or is it for the downs only, ie uplifted?

Meh, I believe TF tuned are doing a service whereby you can go on a test day with them so they can tune both the front and back to suit you.

I reckon I could buy a true custom Nicolai direct from them, get it in the color I want and then pop down to TF Tuned for a shit load cheaper. Especially if I went with a Pike up front with the Fast cartridge instead of the wildly expensive 36.

Also, have they upped the bracing/gusseting on that Nicolai? Stiffness goes down as frame length increases and that looks ridiculously long....

not buying it...need to try one first.

You're gonna need a bigger van.

The package includes delivery via low loader

If that geometry is correct then why's the saddle rammed right forward? Bollocks.

Looks pretty awful to my eye looks wise.

Soon to be stuck on a tight corner near you...

Awesome but it won't fit in my car!

not buying it...need to try one first.

which is the whole point... you go to mojo, take your bike, do a few runs, time it, jump on the nicolai, get it set up, get used to it for a few runs, time it, and then see which you prefer...

they're not going to be sold mail order, from what i know...

@Tom that TfTuned option sounds really good, but I can't seem to find it on their site?

@Tom that TfTuned option sounds really good, but I can't seem to find it on their site?

Give them a ring, can't for the life of me remember where I'd read it.

The best one going was K9 industries a while back before they closed down, they'd hook your bike up to a full on telemetry package and take you riding. If I was spending 6 grand with one company on an aluminium bike, that's the level of attention to detail I'd expect.

That bike begs to be ridden off things like a full on downhill bike, large step downs, doubles etc and based on experience with the frames my brothers managed to crack it wouldn't last a year with that skinny tubing. These bikes will be great for serious enduro riders looking for a bike that will last a season, if you're a park rider/ex-downhiller then I reckon you will have a cracked frame on your hands due to the riding that ridiculous geometry encourages. I hope the warranty is good.

That's my feeling anyway and I could be totally wrong. Anwyay, I'd just buy an aluminium 2015 mondraker frame (the ones with the better bearings), whack an angle set on it and take it to Loco or Tf-Tuned for half the price.

Eeek, that one ugly looking bike, the closeup shots show some great workmanship though.
Interesting bike build/package concept.

That bike begs to be ridden off things like a full on downhill bike, large step downs, doubles etc and based on experience with the frames my brothers managed to crack it wouldn't last a year with that skinny tubing. These bikes will be great for serious enduro riders looking for a bike that will last a season, if you're a park rider/ex-downhiller then I reckon you will have a cracked frame on your hands due to the riding that ridiculous geometry encourages. I hope the warranty is good.

The tube diameter only tells you the approximate ratio of stiffness to weight. It doesn't tell you how stiff a frame is and it definitely doesn't tell you how strong a frame is!

For example, the downtube on my old Boardman XC bike is huge, much bigger than the downtube on my Spitfire (6" enduro thing). Do you think the Boardman is stiffer? No, because the tube walls are much thinner.

And the strength of a tube depends much more on the actual amount of material in it, not the diameter. In fact if you increase the diameter without increasing the amount of material then the walls get thinner and increase the chance of buckling failure.

For £6K, you're getting a Nicolai frame, 2 sets of MAvic wheels, 3 chainrings... it's almost reasonable.

Hopefully you don't have to take that hideous mudguard.

Tom_W1987

That bike begs to be ridden off things like a full on downhill bike, large step downs, doubles etc and based on experience with the frames my brothers managed to crack it wouldn't last a year with that skinny tubing. These bikes will be great for serious enduro riders looking for a bike that will last a season, if you're a park rider/ex-downhiller then I reckon you will have a cracked frame on your hands due to the riding that ridiculous geometry encourages. I hope the warranty is good.

Five year transferable warranty that covers racing.

For some reason it reminds me of this:

[img] [/img]

It's pretty much the ultimate test of the theory that a longer wheelbase=having more of your weight between (rather than above) the wheels and is akin to a lower centre of gravity, as I was trying to convey in the reach/stack thread:

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/getting-my-head-round-reach-stack-after-years-of-effective-top-tube

That said, I reckon it'd be a pig on switchbacks and manuals and 360s would be out of the window.

Tom_W1987 - Member

it wouldn't last a year with that skinny tubing.

Nonsense. Thaeir bikes are massively strong, are made form a different alloy to most alu bikes (hence the straight tubes, the alloy doesn't like forming or bending) and can internally reinforce them (this is a factory option), not to mention the welding and gussets.

Ac you suggested, you're totally wrong.

360s would be out of the window

That said, I reckon it'd be a pig on switchbacks and manuals

Looks like some sort of roadkill on the front wheel.
I like the idea of tuning days. Setting up the suspension with an expert on hand could be useful.

Is it that radical?

large alpine 160: 1230 wheelbase + 65deg + 348 BB height

compared to the 'longer' one: 1290 + 63 + 340

Bugger all difference and probably near enough the same if you had a slackset on the alpine.

Even my 2 year old 140mm (29er admittedly) trail bike is 1185 wheelbase. Any cornering related problems I have are not down to the bike. DH bikes are the same length or longer and make it around switchbacks even with triple clamps.

I'd try one if I wanted a bike for mainly downhill and I had the cash.

Is this the same spec. bike Jones tested in dirt?

Powa mudguards although pricey and ugly if that's really an issue, are the best guards on the market by a long way been using one since they came out.

Have ridden longer and slacker bikes, switchbacks aren't a issue it's just takes a bit to change your riding style to match the bike.

As a package it's would be nice if you have the money as it'll make the customer feel 'special'.

Thing is you with it being almost twice the price of a Capra a lot of people will have trouble seeing past that. (shame the YT's don't come in big enough for me)

That is one ugly biek - I know that's not the most important, but if your're dropping £6k on a bike, you want it to look good.

I was wondering how long it would be before Mojo / Porter put their money where their mouth is given how vocal he has been about the geometry issue.

LoCo - Member

shame the YT's don't come in big enough for me)

They have XLs now - in Aluminium, at least.

Looks like a Liteville 601

Would have to be a carbon if was in the market for one, just bought a new house so no new bikes for a while... 😉

Nonsense. Thaeir bikes are massively strong, are made form a different alloy to most alu bikes (hence the straight tubes, the alloy doesn't like forming or bending) and can internally reinforce them (this is a factory option), not to mention the welding and gussets.

Ac you suggested, you're totally wrong.

I'm still not entirely sure, most aluminium downhill frames are much heavier than this, even without a shock. I'm not an engineer, why is this aluminium so much stronger? How much stronger is it compared to the usual alloy?

But I am cynical and I'd love to see a long term test/here feedback from people who have bought one. I'm not going to be the first to try though.

Does the 5 year warranty just cover enduro racing, or does it cover hitting up full on downhill tracks as well?

The tube diameter only tells you the approximate ratio of stiffness to weight. It doesn't tell you how stiff a frame is and it definitely doesn't tell you how strong a frame is!

For example, the downtube on my old Boardman XC bike is huge, much bigger than the downtube on my Spitfire (6" enduro thing). Do you think the Boardman is stiffer? No, because the tube walls are much thinner.

And the strength of a tube depends much more on the actual amount of material in it, not the diameter. In fact if you increase the diameter without increasing the amount of material then the walls get thinner and increase the chance of buckling failure.

Great post cheers, always happy to learn new things.

If that geometry is correct then why's the saddle rammed right forward?

Powa mudguards although pricey and ugly if that's really an issue, are the best guards on the market

"Nonsense. Thaeir bikes are massively strong, are made form a different alloy to most alu bikes (hence the straight tubes, the alloy doesn't like forming or bending) and can internally reinforce them (this is a factory option), not to mention the welding and gussets."

I had one once. Bent it within 6 months. Not covered by warranty even though I had no idea how I did it.

Is it rammed all the way forward though? Look like the 'seated' position is directly over the BB, which I was under the impression this is the correct position to be in... Just because were all used to seats rammed all the way back (mine included), it looks weird I reckon

But they're not.

The comment was based purely on the functionality I.E keeping mud off the bike & out my face, all mudguards look a bit crap TBH.

So much to answer...Having had one very close to that for a year now (Mine is steeper HA at 65/slacker ST at 74.5) its easy to make judgements before riding one. It isn't for everyone thats for sure but for some you wonder how you rode anything else.

As Loco said, switchbacks aren't a problem, neither is frame stiffness. A large Alpine is over 30mm shorter, the XL is close, but I'm 5'10 so the seat tube is ridiculous on an XL.
My bike has a 430mm Seat tube but 665mm ETT with a 200mm dropper post, 30mm stem, just gone up from a 10mm as I wanted more reach..this means you can get very low between the bike on steep stuff, you don't need to hang off the back and lose all that braking traction on your front wheel.

8mm in BB height is a big difference in feel. swopping between low and high is 10mm different BB height as well as head angle and makes a huge difference in how it rides as well as impacting pedal strike-ability....340mm is as low as practical in my view and on some terrain I've had to lift mine.

It pedals well, definitely not just for DH but it does excel on fast, technical and steep terrain.

Frame price for a Nicolai even Custom is not wildly different from a Santa Cruz.

As for durability, much of the weight is derived from the front end and the travel, upping the front fork travel results in stronger, heavier downtube, possible gussetting, heavier top tube, same scenario at the rear, which is why your DH bike in alloy is heavier...220mm or more of travel is a lot more than 160mm/170mm.

Nicolai do the analysis for you if you want bigger forks etc and wont sell you a frame that isn't durable just because you want it lighter...I have had requests refused on that basis....

Is it rammed all the way forward though? Look like the 'seated' position is directly over the BB, which I was under the impression this is the correct position to be in...

If that was the case, bikes would have a 90 degree seat angle, which would make for some interesting ergonomics...

... really...

seated directly over the seatpost is what I meant, a mistype, I apologise

I wouldn't be surprised if the seat is all the way forward. This bike is designed to be ridden fast, down hill, stood up with saddle dropped.... And no geometry compromises for anything else including saddle position.

Having the seat all the way forward is just a necessary adjustment made to a long wheelbase bike to facilitate it's secondary function...... Peddling back to the top of the hill.

That's how I run my seat. Much better seated climbing. No other drawbacks as that's the only time I'm in the saddle. Quite a few friends who've tried it have adapted their own setups accordingly, especially the ones with longer tts.

That may be a picture of one of the prototypes, much testing has gone into different seat/head angles and BB height and other parameters.

In one of Chris's many interviews about the prototypes, he said the seat angle was as steep as was possible with the given suspension design. I guess the position of the saddle on this bikes means they'd like it even steeper, it's just not possible given all the restrictions.

Apparently we're all sinners for thin/think and clutch mechs also.

Tight corners, no bother?

[img] [/img]

😉

Yep, exactly like that, just more stylish, obviously 😆

I love the concept of longer, lower and slacker bikes!
I'm building a Mondraker Vantage L size with 660mm ETT and Works Components angled headset. Should gain 1,5°.
Eager to test ride it, hopefully this week-end!

The good point with hardtails is that you can use clutch mech, as there is no impact to expect on an unexisting rear suspension 😀

It might ride like a pig (I dunno) but it looks the tits!
If I had £6k to drop on a bike, I'd be considering this. With all that you get with it, it's not at all bad value IMHO.

I bet nicolai could make an interesting short travel version too.

Are you blind, it is as ugly as sin. The only reason the have put that crappy mudguard on it is too try and visually shorten the distance between the frame and the front wheel in a failed attempt to make it look less spindly.

Who said that? 😀
I like it!

That's how I run my seat. Much better seated climbing. No other drawbacks as that's the only time I'm in the saddle.

+1

I think it looks flippin brilliant. Surely when you price up a Nicolai frame on its own (whats that, knocking on for £2k on its own?), then a grands worth of fork, another grand+ for the two sets of wheels then you're at £4k already and you need the rest of the bike plus you get all the extras which, if I was spending that kind of money on a bike, I'd want rather than buying a Scott for that kind of price and just being handed it in a box and walking out the shop with no setup etc.

That's how I run my seat. Much better seated climbing. No other drawbacks as that's the only time I'm in the saddle.

Interesting that Chris Porter has chosen a multi-pivot, Horst Link frame for this. I'm pretty sure he has stated before that multi-pivot bikes are over-complicated, offer zero benefits compared to single pivots and that brake jack is a figment of Richard Cunninghams imagination.

then why don't manufacturers go for a steeper seat-angle/shorter TT to get the saddle forward?

they do
Thats why this bike is better

I'm building a Mondraker Vantage

I'll keep an eye open for this, those bikes do look pretty remarkable. 🙂

'm pretty sure he has stated before that multi-pivot bikes are over-complicated

He also expressed disdain, as he still does, for rearward axle paths while using Orange downhill bikes which I believe had a rearward axle path.

That said, I don't have any doubt that he knows more about mountain bikes and how to ride them than I do.

Mine in the Pyrenees last year. I did this separately to what Chris was doing after a ride on a Foxy which I loved. Feel free to wade in with bike Vs railings comparisons..

[img][url= https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8678/16170002214_cc5c448a08_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8678/16170002214_cc5c448a08_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/qCTuiC ]IMG_1657[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/35643392@N04/ ]philip.pryor[/url], on Flickr[/img]

and in a more local setting pre BOS Void rear shock.

[img][url= https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8663/16606169659_6fa773e08f_c.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8663/16606169659_6fa773e08f_c.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/riqXFZ ]IMG_1378[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/people/35643392@N04/ ]philip.pryor[/url], on Flickr[/img]

Very cool, Chainline. Are those LB rims?

Very cool, Chainline.

then why don't manufacturers go for a steeper seat-angle/shorter TT to get the saddle forward?
they do
Thats why this bike is better

Everything is a compromise.
Taking into account current trends for longer top tubes, wheelbases (but short chain stays), dropper compatibility on the seat tube, rear suspension design etc etc....something was always going to be 'not quite right' and in this case the saddle is having to be pushed further forward on its rails.

You simply won't find a bike that incorporates all aspects of current geometry thinking and fits everybody perfectly, even in a custom build I would expect to play around with stem lengths, bar rise, seatpost offset, saddle position etc.

For what it's worth I don't particularly like this which surprises me as I like slack bikes.
It seems to be about as close to the ethos of 'winch up, plummet down' as anyone has got so far but in doing so I think that it would be cumbersome on flat winding singletrack....it looks to be a DH bike for places that don't operate an uplift service leaving you to pedal to the top and that cuts out a part of the ride I enjoy that could probably be called XC.

I've found my personal sweet spot for all encompassing riding to be around the 140mm mark with a head angle not so slack that things get vague up front, I also don't like the 'long front centre' trend as being fixed in a superman position as the bike drops down something steep freaks me out.

It would seem that folks aiming to win Enduros have a different technique to us mortals and unweight the rear end to such an extent

Shhh, don't you know every mtb coach in the country teaches 0% weight through the bars? I read it on here you know so it must be true.

Thanks honourablegorge, Wrecker.
ir_bandito, Do you mean mine or Mojo's. Mine is bang in the middle of the rail, I spent long enough(forgive pun) speccing it to make sure the saddle was in the middle. OR did you mean on the Mojo bike?

As I said, I suspect is one of the proto's current seat angle is set so you shouldn't need to.

Mine climbs amazingly well, I cant say I felt I needed an even steeper seat angle BUT mine is 2 deg steeper HA. For me 65deg seems good especially when the bike is 1250mm odd wheelbase. Stability it does not lack.

Shhh, don't you know every mtb coach in the country teaches 0% weight through the bars? I read it on here you know so it must be true.

Did you fail comprehension at school, or haven't you left yet?

If thats what people are doing, then why don't manufacturers go for a steeper seat-angle/shorter TT to get the saddle forward?

That's a very fair point, in addition to the reported improvement in climbing, there are a number of potential advantages:

~ More rear wheel clearance, allowing shorter chainstays and/or more flexibility in rear suspension design

~ Shorter back ends would be stiffer and lighter

~ Less thrust on Seatposts, especially droppers, meaning less wear and potential for lighter components

Guess the disadvantages are:

~ Less sizing adjustment: bike will fit a narrower range of riders due to fixed Effective Top Tube length

~ Less room in Front Triangle for Shock

~ Potential weight distribution and ergonomics issues

Would be interesting to get a bike designer on here (paging Brant) to confirm or deny my thoughts...

That said, I don't have any doubt that he knows more about mountain bikes and how to ride them than I do.

Same here.

Lovely bike chainline! Do like a Nicolai!

Deviant, in the UK I also think 140mm is good, I want Loco to shorten the stroke on my CCDBair to get 140 at the back on this one.

Even though this bike has a very long front centre you don't need to superman, just lower your body and maintain central weight, the length/HA does the rest when it gets steep.

What's the Geo on that bike chainline? It looks great btw.

Chainline

Your bikes way prettier than that Mojo gate.

It would seem that folks aiming to win Enduros have a different technique to us mortals and unweight the rear end to such an extent

For what it's worth I don't particularly like this which surprises me as I like slack bikes.
It seems to be about as close to the ethos of 'winch up, plummet down' as anyone has got so far but in doing so I think that it would be cumbersome on flat winding singletrack....it looks to be a DH bike for places that don't operate an uplift service leaving you to pedal to the top and that cuts out a part of the ride I enjoy that could probably be called XC.

I'm trying to develop a style that's more central but with a lot of weight over the front during the corners only. I really love watching the drifty/loose style, going to start running bollocksed Rock Razors on the back....everywhere....so I get used to the rear sliding out all the time.

Staying central on the bike everywhere else is pretty important to me though, I don't want to go for a bike that's so long that I am in the low Lopes style attack position all the time. I am of the opinion that the style used by Sam Hill, central and over the front only when it's needed is the best for enduro riding. It fatigues you less, which over the course of a day means that you are going to be faster.

I would also, really really love to be able to pull off tight corners like the guy in that gif - that impresses me more than people hitting big stuff. I think I'm going to spend a lot of time dicking around on the DJ bike rotting in the shed to develop my bike handling skills more.

If thats what people are doing, then why don't manufacturers go for a steeper seat-angle/shorter TT to get the saddle forward?

I would also, really really love to be able to pull off tight corners like the guy in that gif - that impresses me more than people hitting big stuff. I think I'm going to spend a lot of time dicking around on the DJ bike rotting in the shed to develop my bike handling skills more.

Yep, loving that GIF.

As luck would have it i did some post-winter TLC on my hardtail yesterday and also got rid of the winter tyres....doing that combined with seeing that awesome corner technique has renewed my enthusiasm to get out there and practice, practice and practice.

Sam Hill, central and over the front only when it's needed

Shirley thats got to do with him using flats so hes not over the front as much (generally) as clipped in DHers.

is 340mm BB considered low or high?

Would be interesting to get a bike designer on here (paging Brant) to confirm or deny my thoughts...

IIRC he did exactly that on the last On-One's he made (456evo, Codien etc).

is 340mm BB considered low or high?

I'd really like some longer bikes, I don't nececeraly want <66deg head angles and 30mm stems, 67-68 and a 70mm stem is probaly as slack as I'd like for a trail bike, but I'd like that with 630mm ETT's on 17" frames.

@jimjam

Geo: Low/High
ETT : 662mm/667mm
HA:65.5/66
SA:74/74.5
CS: 432mm
ST: 430mm
BB height:342mm/350mm
Reach:487mm/492mm
WB:1236mm
160mm travel both ends (can take up to 180mm front but designed around 160mm)

@thisisnotaspoon
I had aexactly that problem excluding the HA, wanted long but not big seat tube, I not particularly tall. I cant see the issue with running a 10-30mm stem though.

I specced it to run a 10mm stem, currently trying a 30mm (wit hseat forward) for a lower front, but don't know which I prefer yet/ When cornering on a bike with this geo central is the name of the game not big front wheel weighting, I feel the slacker head angles do help that.

I didn't want a winch/plummet only bike and I use a lot of quad in pedalling so I didn't want a crazy steep seat tube and the HA is a function of how you like it to feel on a bike this long,

It's not necessary to have slacker than 67deg for stability to be honest for almost anything, but it does feel different in how the bike enters a corner and slower speed handling.

I guess I will find out if my pedalling position fears are unfounded with the change in position. 5mm saddle movement is worth 0.5deg on the seat tube.

It pedals well, tyres are important as it has uber wide rims on, and they make a big difference to the weight. its 30lb as specced in the picture, with the 30mm stem/Minion 3c exo 2.3's and the 200mm Vecnum dropper it drops 750g to 28.5lbs.

It's fair to say its not cheap to get it that weight, but it could be lighter too for the same cost ( it is/was somewhat cheaper than a full S-Works Spesh or SC Carbon Bronson/Nomad in a similar spec) .e.g. CK hubs aren't light, it has a bashguard, could use lighter discs and the Fox 36 is lighter than a Deville..
So for little if any loss of durability I could lose just over another 1lb. but I like the BOS feel, CKs are bombproof and I like how the shimano discs feel 😀

Shirley thats got to do with him using flats so hes not over the front as much (generally) as clipped in DHers.

Partially, there are other riders who ride more like Sam whilst being clipped in though.

Great looking bike Chainline. I bet it's a monster downhill. I've ridden a bike with similar numbers and it was awesome 🙂

Those numbers are interesting Chainline just to compare to my off-the-peg 160mm bike -

ETT: 600(s) - 660(xl)
HA: 65
SA: 74
CS: 439
BB height: 348
Reach: 426(s) - 483(xl)
WB: 1194(s) - 1257(xl)

The Mondrakers and Oranges are approaching that geo territory as well, with the new Reign tailing them with a slightly more conservative reach but still ahead of pretty much every other manufacturer on the planet.

Yeah, my numbers are from the Alpine 160.

Surprised actually that it's so 'on trend'.