[Closed] Have we done Richie Rude's DSQ?

Rules is rules. You have to draw a line somewhere.

In the early days of EWS there was a lot of "line cutting" cheating going on, the rules were brought in to stop that, they have been in place for years now, are the same for everyone and a top level rider would know exactly what the punishment is. You have to stay within the course boundaries to win/complete the race.

There is perhaps an argument for the rules to be relaxed a little, but still should be something like a 2 min penalty not just 5 secs. It should be that if you leave the course you go back to the exit point,, and the penalty should be sufficient to stop you just joining at a later point.

Every other rider managed not to "cheat". I hear the French want to give him a passport.

everyone bar 2 riders managed to stay within the track limits. some on PB are really frothing about it.

Rules are clear

I agree with 'rules is rules' but on that section with wide taped grass he can't have made much time up by going the wrong side of the gate?

It's not like he got creative and straight lined a load of switchbacks.

The rule book is very clear on what's a DQ and what's a timed penalty. Its the same for everyone competing. If it spoils the end of the season for the spectators then the riders concerned have to live with that.
We had a 5 min penalty in Italy a couple of years ago for a silly mistake but you live, learn and get on with it.

he can’t have made much time up by going the wrong side of the gate?

Probably not, but if you watch the footage where you can hear Ed Masters comment, Rude was coming in way too quick and had he taken the proper line he may have slid out. It's not just about time saving. Sections are often taped in because they're tricky. He took an easier line and reduced his risk of crashing.

It was either a total brain fart or he's just monumentally thick and thought it was ok to take that line.

I'm of the rules is rules club.

Briefing was clear, other riders all managed it.

Tough.

Looks a bit like skiing to me. Miss a gate and you're out.

Yep, rules are rules, and the video footage makes it pretty obvious that he cut the course and benefited from it. I don't know why people are losing their poo over this.

I'm with rules is rules, and I'm not sure how you judge a time penalty for that other than making it so massive that he's out of contention anyway. It's a bloody shame for the overall racing but sometimes things are just a shame.

But, equally, I don't think it's the smartest way to tape it. And yes there was a clarification issued but that arguably shows that there was grounds for confusion- maybe only 2 riders got dq'd for doing it on the day but it looks like others were thinking it. About 10 foot of tape would have been better than a group chat and the suggestion is that the gate before it was fully taped. So I hope they take that onboard

(the "team manager" chat made me wonder how well that works for people with less support, too. Like,I know it's not the same as it was in 2014 but Greg Callaghan's manager and crew for that, was his dad in a campervan, he was 8th...)

(also I know it's not the same as it was in 2014, but, a few people commented "only 2 people did it". Really only 2 people got DQ'd, that's not the same- they may not have taken the same approach to people who're out of contention. I turned myself in for a dq offence and got told "as long as you're not interfering with the results it's fine". Luckily MC was there and could vouch for me definitely not interfering with the results)

It's a shame that we didn't get the big battle to win the overall that we'd been expecting but if it's the rules, they can't change that at the last race just because it's a title contender. I thought Richie took it really well actually.
I'm stoked for Jack and I'm still not sure how he was in the lead coming into that last race after the wheel, the food poisoning and the dislocated shoulder. Looking forward to the next vlog.

Kudos to Matt Stuttard for speaking up.

I bet a lot more of the pros are angry at Rude as well, but it's probably awkward for them to say.

The officials had no choice as it wasn't a purely accidental cut (as in crashing off the course and losing time in the process), but could easily have been deliberate cheating (and probably was IMO).

Rude was coming in way too quick

Yep, and it looked like he fully intended to take that line. Possibly a bad split-second decision when the red mist had descended, but still no wriggle room in the rules for a time penalty instead of a DQ, as I read them.

Also in the rules are rules club, and the evidence certainly seems to have been the situation was made clear beforehand.

It's not about how much time was saved but how much risk was reduced with that line, I spectated at the offending corner for quite a while on Saturday and it was very slick and everyone was on the edge of traction with a few sliding out completely, Richie may have crashed at that speed on the actual line, in which case he might have saved himself a good 15-20 seconds by going wide.

If the EWS had reviewed the UCI's disqualification and come back with a time penalty, how happy would other racers be that Rude got the rules bent for him after the fact? Given the EWS already relaxed their "any failed tests and you're out of the EWS for life" rule for Rude as the first publicly announced failed test I think another relaxation of policy for him would cheese the other racers off a lot.

Those are the rules, stay between the gates. Apparently it was also announced in the rider briefing before the race. No one else did it. Disqualification is the only option available.

Looks a bit like skiing to me. Miss a gate and you’re out.

Or you walk back up and actually go through the gate

Or you walk back up and actually go through the gate

Yep, I'm not sure what the issue is. It's the exact same as DH racing.

Only two riders were confused by it so I don't see that they've got much to complain about.

The first 2 gates Rude missed probably didn't save much time but as stated he took a line with more grip by doing so, he also cut a 3rd gate after the corner on the vid which would have saved a good few seconds. I initially said a time penalty for each missed gate would be a fair sanction but in hindsight the dq was justified, his teammates both managed to work out where the course was

Another one to agree this was the right call. Supposing Richie had just had a time penalty applied and for some reason Jack DNF'd on the Sunday, a cheater would have won the EWS overall by default despite a penalty.

The other consideration is the sport needs to set out clear parameters - you can't have talk of 'blind eyes' being turned to cheating. Look at how long the noise about alleged doping by Karim Amour went on for, after nothing seemed to be done.

Another one to agree this was the right call. Supposing Richie had just had a time penalty applied and for some reason Jack DNF’d on the Sunday, a cheater would have won the EWS overall by default despite a penalty.

Yeah there's a lot of yanks bleating about this now, but imagine the outcry if they'd bent the rules to accommodate Rude - even if Moir had still won it would have looked dodgy AF.

Absolutely the right decision and it's strengthened the reputation of the series IMO.

Look at how long the noise about alleged doping by Karim Amour went on for, after nothing seemed to be done.

You mean Karim Amour, the winner of the masters category?

You're all discussing the rules.

My reaction is, what an idiot. He threw away a whole season with a brain fart of epic proportions.

You’re all discussing the rules.

My reaction is, what an idiot. He threw away a whole season with a brain fart of epic proportions.

Well, if it were any other rider (apart from Karim Amour obvs) I think the discussion would be more along those lines.

But this ain't his first rodeo, so to speak.

My reaction is, what an idiot. He threw away a whole season with a brain fart of epic proportions.

True, but some of the objections were around this rule and so that was what some were trying to question it seems.

He has previous form I believe on a few things like this - as does IIRC a few others like Maes.

IMO it isn't brain fart time - he came in way faster having already chosen that inside line, hoping to get away with it.

He knew what he was doing. Watch any headcam footage and it's obvious where the course went, so why would he do that? Just stupid, especially as they'd have practiced the course too. Defo DQ for all the reasons above.

I think it was 100% deliberate and deserves a penalty. He obviously aimed for that line and it was directly stated in the riders briefing that it was out of bounds.

Also it wasn't just a second or two saved but also dramatically reduced the chances of binning it on a sketchy corner.

IMO a DQ is harsh, maybe a 30-60 second penalty, effectively the time lost if he'd have slid out on the actual line.

IMO a DQ is harsh, maybe a 30-60 second penalty, effectively the time lost if he’d have slid out on the actual line.

As above, it then looks shitty if Moir DNFs and Richie wins the overall.

If it looks like blatant cheating then a DQ is appropriate IMO.

Any rider in the EWS should/would read the rule book before they compete and every year after to ensure they know of any updates.

Its not that long a read and is easy to understand. The bit about course cutting was in it way back in 2013

Course cutting - Taking short cuts on course in order to gain an advantage can both damage the environment and brings the sport and spirit of enduro mountain biking racing into disrepute. Therefore, any rider trying to save time by choosing a line that lies outside of the marked course will be disqualified.

DQ was the only outcome as any timed penalty could have had an effect on any of the other riders.

It also sets the standard for all the future events. Maybe its what was needed to stop the French lines that goes on away from the camera.

I’m pleased he got disqualified as he cheated and there is no way it wasn’t deliberate. It is funny watching all the Americans on pb getting all worked up about how unfair it is that the rules were applied to an American

Only he will know if it was deliberate or a mistake. That's why the rules have to be applied as written. It removes any discretion and its fair for all.

I wonder what he does in the woods when there's no camera or spectators...

I wonder what he does in the woods when there’s no camera or spectators…

That's when he 'accidentally' takes a swig from the wrong water bottle.

I think it was 100% deliberate and deserves a penalty. He obviously aimed for that line and it was directly stated in the riders briefing that it was out of bounds.

Also it wasn’t just a second or two saved but also dramatically reduced the chances of binning it on a sketchy corner.

IMO a DQ is harsh, maybe a 30-60 second penalty, effectively the time lost if he’d have slid out on the actual line.

Was chatting to Raphaela Richter for a while on Saturday evening, I was previously unaware Richie Rude had cut the course (and that he wasn't the only one) but watching the footage it looked very much deliberate and premeditated. She showed me some of the Whatsapp group messages from other pro riders and team managers, the consensus seemed the same that he was deliberately trying to gain an advantage and needed penalising, but that most thought the DQ was actually a little harsh. Mostly everybody just seemed gobsmacked that he'd done it! 🤷🏻‍♂️

Personally, any deliberate line cutting in a race, you need a serious word with yourself. I think a DQ is perhaps a little harsh, but a very significant time penalty for every missed gate (there was more than one) would at least not have robbed the crowds of getting to see him race and try and claw back his time on the Sunday... Hate to say it, but Richie Rude (amongst 2 or 3 others) is a real crowd puller! He only has himself to blame for being an idiot and cutting the corner, but would have still been nice to see him race on Sunday even if it was with a 1min time penalty... But I do understand the reasons behind the DQ though!

Was a real shame not to have seen a final round fight out.

Could another option have been to get a DNF for the Pro stage and be allowed to continue for the rest of the race at least?

Also disappointing lack of interviews on the EWS footage from this round. Would have been good to have had some more riders comments (not just on the DSQ).

Does the pron stage not count toward total race time? I didn't assume it was like the xcc as "optional" before the xco but then beyond Jesse Melamed's videos I've not really followed the EWS.

Yes, the Pro stage counts. But if Rude skipped it and then Moir crashed out in one of the next day's stages he could still have won.

the pron stage

Now there's an interesting proposition.

They'd have to line the course with hedges, I presume.

the pron stage

Now there’s an interesting proposition.

They’d have to line the course with hedges, I presume.

You see I don't think it would add much, it would just be fluff really.

I think it could add a bit of Razzle to the events, it'd be a veritable Fiesta of enduro.

It's a fair decision to DQ him IMO on the basis of the rules stand and that the racing on previous rounds has been soooo close. Down to hundredths on some stages. that move could have resulted in a change of position.

He knew what he was up to - RR can put the bike wherever he likes in reality.

But if Rude skipped it and then Moir crashed out in one of the next day’s stages he could still have won

You can't skip a stage and still win. Miss any stage for any reason and you're a DNF

Was a real shame not to have seen a final round fight out.

The person to blame for that is Ritchie Rude.

No pictures of octopii in smutty attire riding bikes. This place has changed.

His excuse was that he was within the tapes so thought he was ok. The lines on the grass suggest there was far more than two riders that hit the line, so maybe he thought if everyone else is doing it he also should?

Unlike with his last rule infringement, I'm inclined to believe that he thought it was OK because there was no chance you were getting away with it unnoticed in that finish field. I would say that even if it wasn't against the rules, it wouldn't be within the spirit of the race because it's very obvious what the gates are for.

Rules are rules, good on EWS for enforcing them and well done to Matt Stuttard for being outspoken on it.

The lines on the grass suggest there was far more than two riders that hit the line

Maybe the line was left from riders on practice runs, rather than just on the race run itself.

If it was in the briefing, then he has no-one to blame but himself for, at best, not paying attention, and, at worst, thinking he could get away with it because he's too big a name to be DQed at this point in the season.

I was a bit curious about this so read his comments about the line not being well marked, and then watched the video.  It was super clear he was the wrong side of a gate and why they were there.  If this was his first race then maybe not but for an experienced rider it was completely clear

Maybe the line was left from riders on practice runs, rather than just on the race run itself.

Very possible, and the EWS 100 too. My point is he may have seen those lines and thought if others are doing then I will too. An explanation rather than a defence.

I'm in a much more lenient camp.
Put the riders between tape for the whole season and then spring some poles on them at the last round seems idiotic. Just tape the poles as well. All it needed was a little bit of tape from each pole to the ground in a diagonal. They managed it with the first pole.

I would have given him a 10sec penalty for each gate and let him continue and taken it on the chin as an organiser that I messed up.

Put the riders between tape for the whole season and then spring some poles on them at the last round seems idiotic. Just tape the poles as well. All it needed was a little bit of tape from each pole to the ground in a diagonal. They managed it with the first pole.

That's how I feel about it.

Rules is rules but it doesn't help that the organisers introduced this ambiguity. One extra bit of tape would have removed all uncertainty.

I would have given him a 10sec penalty for each gate and let him continue and taken it on the chin as an organiser that I messed up.

that sort of penalty for an accidental cutting might be fair (say he'd slid wide on the left turn and cut the right by accident). However this move was premeditated, you can see the extra speed he goes into the turn at and there's no change in line, he absolutely fires it through that gap. If not a DQ then a BIG time penalty to ensure no possible win or big points haul.

as an organiser that I messed up

Technically it was the UCI that imposed the penalty, not the EWS

Interestingly, there were British Cycling commissaires there. I thought they had nothing to do with enduro but there was one at the start of a stage on Friday practice giving us a telling off for being there past the end of the time when we were allowed to practice that stage.

The organised did not mess up, the rule book has provision in it for the use of flags in this way. This was not someone thinking it was cool, or making stuff up on the fly, it is part of the rules, that all competitors must know and follow.

There were briefings, questions and answers, communication and guidance, and only 2 people chose to ignore that vs everyone else who raced who understood and followed the rules. No sympathy from me at all for the DQ, there is no room for RR to complain or point to any inconsistency in interpretation.

Organizers didn't mess up, they clearly stated tape was for public and gates were the course. If they had messed up more than two people would have made similar mistakes in looking for the optimal lines

AlexSimon
Full Member

Just tape the poles as well. All it needed was a little bit of tape from each pole to the ground in a diagonal. They managed it with the first pole

See, I totally agree with that but I don't think it makes that much of a difference here, I just reckon they should learn from it and do it like this in future. In this particular case it was practically in the event village, if they thought it was worth sending out a group message to tell all the team managers then it wouldn't have taken 10 minutes to nip up with some tape and a pole and sort it beyond any doubt.

But, that's all kind of notes in the margins.

but what doubt really was there? Nobody with half a brain thought the gates were in that field for decoration. At best, the two of thought they were being fly and would get off on a technicality - unfortunately it just turned out that they hadn't been paying attention

that’s all kind of notes in the margins.

Yep, and the title in bold at the top of the page is that one of the sport's dominant racers has confirmed himself as a cheat.

No benefit of the doubt this time.

mashr
Free Member

but what doubt really was there? Nobody with half a brain thought the gates were in that field for decoration.

There was enough doubt that they send out a group message to all the teams, remember?

There was enough doubt that they send out a group message to all the teams, remember?

Sometimes it's helpful to (re)state the obvious especially when the implications are significant, that doesn't mean it's not obvious.

The ambiguity (compared to the rule book) came from the fact that there were both tape and poles at the same time. Then some of the poles were taped and others not. Tape even lead into the pole area.

So it's
Between the tape
Between the tape
Between the tape
Between the tape
Between the tape even though there is a pole as well
Ignore the tape for a sec

There looked to be fairly significant stretches of the stage that weren't event taped at all. I assume the riders had no issue there.

Surely the 'gates within a wider taped area' has been done before?

There are lots of images of no tape, wide tape and gates on Enduro races out there. This must be something the competitors are used to, both because of the rule book and first hand experience of oddities in taping.

It's the pro athletes job to be aware of all these things and stick to them. And the rules are not to be bent - even if they are not ideal.

Technically it was the UCI that imposed the penalty, not the EWS

Interestingly, there were British Cycling commissaires there. I thought they had nothing to do with enduro but there was one at the start of a stage on Friday practice giving us a telling off for being there past the end of the time when we were allowed to practice that stage.

EWS is a UCI sanctioned race, which is why it was the UCI commissaire who officially imposed the penalties, after discussion with the Race Director.
However they were simply following the EWS rulebook, which states the penalty for deliberately cutting the course is disqualification, so there was no discretion available to the penalty applied.

The BC commissaires were there to assist (UCI will often use national commissaires to assist at international events) and gain information as BC is looking at re-integrating enduro into the official disciplines they sanction.
I had a good chat with one of the commissaires, and there is work going on between the involved organisations to try and develop a consistent approach and rules for enduros.

He has previous form I believe on a few things like this – as does IIRC a few others like Maes

Maes been cutting corners? Did I miss something? Or is this Maes who had to serve a drugs ban after taking a standard drug combo from a doctor didn't realise one of them was a prohibited substance?