[Closed] Have folks realised fat bikes are shit yet ?

I really don't get why people moan about different bikes, tyre sizes, axle sizes, rim width,.... 2 things:

1 - As a mtber you now have more CHOICE than at any point in the history of the sport to ride the bike that is right for you and the type of riding you do and the conditions you ride in. Choice is a good thing. Making product better is a good thing. making your rims stronger and stiffer is a good thing, giving you more grip is a good thing, having brakes that work is a good thing, having an xc bike with big wheels is a good thing, having a dh rig with agile small wheels is a good thing. Sh1t even being able to have a bike with pedal assist is good thing.

2 - YOU DON'T ACTUALLY HAVE TO BUY IT!

Don't confuse a fad with progress. And if you are that annoyed by it go ride alone on your early 90s steel rigid clunker with rim brakes and have a great time doing it if that's your bag. Just stop moaning.... Please.

I don't see many on my local trails the Peak District, West Yorkshire, can't imagine they are great on serious climbs
In fact I've never seen one..

I'd love one but having to climb on a average 500-800 metres a ride I can't warrant one

You probably haven't seen one because there aren't that many out there, nothing to do with your local terrain. I did a big loop on mine in the peaks the weekend before last, 2000 metres climbing, the bike is not the limiting factor.

Would I have a go on on? Yes.
Would I use one for a week to get used to it? Yes.
Would I buy one? Maybe but unlikely.
Would I use one as my only (off-road) bike? No.

I've got a pair of B+ wheels/tyres for my 29er and they're probably about as far as I'd like to go in the fat direction. But that's for the riding that I do I can see me using them maybe 40% of the time.

As for no good on serious climbs: postierich got a damn site further up the Kentmere side of Garburn Pass on his fat bike the other month than I did on my 29er.

The climbing aspect on a fat bike had put me off also.

I generally climb faster on my fatbike than my (now gone) Scott Spark. It is a bit slower on longer/rougher descents.

On the strength of this thread I dug my Spearfish out from the back of the shed.
The steering feels twitchy, the narrow bottom bracket has brought back my chaffing downstairs, it's not any comfier, i dont like the bouncing when climbing and most of all I miss that instant power that a big fat tyre and rigid frame give you.
Shall Strava some off road climbs on the way home and see if fatty is any slower.

now plus one has got all the fatties' attention, can I ask.... How do you find them going down steep technical stuff? Comparatively. Are [i]you[/i] still riding the same steep stuff as [i]you[/i] ride/used to ride, on your main bike?
No matter what your main bike is/was (unless your main bike is a DH or Trials bike - I guess that would skew things)

Just wondering whether your average fat bike is less comfortable on the steeps than your average middle of the road FS/HT. Like I said comparatively, I've no doubt postierich would kick my arse up hill and down gnar on his fatbike.

My first post ever on here was in response to the knocking that these new fangled 29ers were getting.
I'm sure if STW was around in the 90s we would be arguing about suspension.

Are you still riding the same steep stuff as you ride/used to ride, on your main bike?

I'd like to give a fs fat bike a go. The new trek looks promising.

IMO a fad, you won't see many in a few years time outside of the odd die hards.

I'm seriously considering getting one as a mess about in the woods & ride with my little lad kinda bike as a high spec carbon 29 XC FS is a bit overkill for that kinda thing.

I'm not expecting it to be a revelation in all things biking, but more a bit of fun for bumbling round the woods, as a plus point he things the bigger the tyres the more a bike is for riding in the forest so win win.

you won't see many in a few years time outside of the odd die hards

which, according to some on here, is all that's riding them now! 🙂

DONK - steeps and technical descents easier on Fatty (with nicerer carbon rimmed tubeless wheels), fast but rough better on Orange Alpine.
I won't be taking a fat bike to Les Gets any time soon - but I bet someone else is.

I just bought a 34lb, steel framed, 5" tyred fatbike. I took it to Cannock last week. For the first half, I was puffing up the hills, sweating like a pig, chickening out of all the drop-offs and generally embarrassing myself. I even managed to make the front tyre wash out on a nice dry switchback.
Then, about half way round, something just clicked and I started to get it. By the end I was flying (quite literally at one point). Fat bikes are different, and need to be ridden differently, but can be ridden just about bloody anywhere.
I'm still not quite fit enough yet though, but the fatty will get me fitter faster.

The climbing aspect on a fat bike had put me off also.

The climbing has been the biggest surprise for me. Mine is a 34 lb lump of steel with 5" tyres. I didn't buy it to be fast and I expected to struggle more on the climbs, but it just doesn't seem to be happening.

Last night, for example, without really trying, I set my second best time (of 21 attempts) on the climb, only a second off my best. That was good enough for 14th out of 88 on the leaderboard. I'm 51 and I aint going to be challenging the fit kids any more whatever I ride, but the bike doesn't seem to be holding me back on the climbs so far.

In general, it seems to be slower if it's really smooth (like a road), but the gap narrows the rougher it gets and when you get to the point where you have to get off and push on a regular mountain bike a fatbike can sometimes keep on trucking. I've cleared a couple of ramps (both stupidly steep and covered in loose rocks) that I've attempted dozens of times on a variety of regular mountain bikes, without ever getting close to making it up.

How do you find them going down steep technical stuff?

It depends how steep and how technical for me. I've ridden down a few (steep, rocky) sections on my fatbike that I've always been too scared to ride on a regular mountain bike. Huge tyres and a front end that doesn't pitch you forwards when you hit a bump can give a huge amount of confidence when it's really steep and technical.

Where it's rubbish though is on fast rocky stuff. Exactly the sort of terrain where my full-suss 29er excels. For that sort of warp-speed, let go of the brakes and switch off your brain stuff you just can't beat a few inches of nicely damped suspension. For some people, of course, that's the best bit (maybe even the whole reason they ride). So, I totally understand why a fatbike wont be for everyone.

Personally I wont be getting rid of my full-suss anytime soon and I'm not sure I'd ever choose to take a fatbike to a trail centre. But for riding up and down mountains it's got a few things going for it 🙂

[img] [/img]

You bought one then, Roverpig?

You bought one then, Roverpig?

Yeah, I couldn't get the demo ride out of my head so decided the only option was to build one up and see how I got on with it 🙂 The jury is still out to be honest, but it's fun to try new thing.

Denis99 - Member

Its a Felt Lebowsk -e.

Felt just won the Bike Name Game, that's absolute genius. Makes me want to get one, and a Canyon Dude.

D0NK - Member

now plus one has got all the fatties' attention, can I ask.... How do you find them going down steep technical stuff? Comparatively. Are you still riding the same steep stuff as you ride/used to ride, on your main bike?
No matter what your main bike is/was (unless your main bike is a DH or Trials bike - I guess that would skew things)

It's a very different experience but I love it tbh, it's not like, say, tiptoing down on an xc bike (which can be fun too). I wouldn't ride it down glencoe downhill... my aim is to ride all of the tweedlove enduro world series stages on the Dune but a couple of those might be too much. But my second or third ride ever was at innerleithen dh chasing (badly ridden) downhill bikes down the matador.

I haven't had it on a beach yet. I'm worried the Council of Fatbiek might send Coastkid round to confiscate it.

Hope mike doesnt mind me posting this impressive video clip
downhillo n the snow in chamonix

does this look shite? no !!!

You'll have to do better than that vid to win over the non-fatbike fans. How ****ing slow is that riding? Sorry but I've no interest in riding really slowly downhill in freezing conditions.

now plus one has got all the fatties' attention, can I ask.... How do you find them going down steep technical stuff? Comparatively. Are you still riding the same steep stuff as you ride/used to ride, on your main bike?
No matter what your main bike is/was (unless your main bike is a DH or Trials bike - I guess that would skew things)

Just wondering whether your average fat bike is less comfortable on the steeps than your average middle of the road FS/HT. Like I said comparatively, I've no doubt postierich would kick my arse up hill and down gnar on his fatbike.

It's still a rigid bike at the end of the day. There's a bit of squish, and pinch flatting takes more effort, but it's still a case of picking lines that suit the bike, usually smoother ones, but looking for grip is less important.

dragon - Member
You'll have to do better than that vid to win over the non-fatbike fans. How ****ing slow is that riding? Sorry but I've no interest in riding really slowly downhill in freezing conditions.

Go on then, show us your rad sick gnarrcore edit.

Another fat video.

For that sort of warp-speed, let go of the brakes and switch off your brain stuff you just can't beat a few inches of nicely damped suspension. For some people, of course, that's the best bit (maybe even the whole reason they ride). So, I totally understand why a fatbike wont be for everyone

They make full sus fatbikes now. You can have both 🙂

I've been a bit fat curious since I had a brief spin on an on-one fattie back in 2012. I recently had the chance of a long term demo on a Scott Big ed.
My thoughts were -
Its slower almost everywhere.
It will climb almost anything if you can hang on.
I never want to get another puncture in one.
A lot more capable on steep stuff than I initially thought it would be.
I would have one if I could get one cheap enough.
I was properly beaten up by it 🙂

[img] [/img]

Photo courtesy of JWDTphotography

You'll have to do better than that vid to win over the non-fatbike fans. How ****ing slow is that riding? Sorry but I've no interest in riding really slowly downhill in freezing conditions.

Then a fatbike probably isn't for you. Luckily there are other options for those that crave speed 🙂

Personally (and others may disagree) I find the fatbike great on sections of the trail (up or down) where I'm going slowly, which accounts for a surprisingly large percentage of my rides 😳 If you want to hit stuff at warp speed though a regular mountain bike wins every time.

Personally, this is my favourite fatbike video and a big part of the reason why I went with the ICT.

[url=

By the standards of regular mountain bike videos it's totally naff. He's not going fast, it's all totally controlled. But that's the point, for me. It looks as though he's having fun in the woods without ever really risking a trip to A&E. But, as I say, I totally get that it's not for everyone. It's just an option for those that fancy giving it a try.

I saw a bloke commuting on one in London for the first time yesterday, he seemed happy enough

Yeah, they look rubbish, especially in that photo

@ dragon

do you prefer to sit indoors and watch coronation street instead when its snowy outside and cant ride.

most riders cant do that on a dry terrain on any bike let alone faster. it might not be for you but for people who can do it a fat bike is perfect, in the right hands of course.

shermer75 - Member
I saw a bloke commuting on one in London for the first time yesterday, he seemed happy enough

[u][b]Masochist Definition[/b][/u] -

a person who is gratified by pain, degradation, etc., that is self-imposed or imposed by others.

...of course he looked happy.

This business about fatbikes being slower seems obvious.

However the first year I took my fatbike to the 'Puffer I managed to get in one more lap than I'd ever managed previously. Usual bike a good 29er weighing about 22lbs, the fatbike weighing about 42lbs, same singlespeed gearing.

On rough terrain on long distances, it seems you can average a higher speed on a fattie. Instantaneous speed and acceleration another matter.

But part of this perception problem is there's a lot of crap tyres out there now, usually fitted to nonQBP bikes and they are dire to ride with. Put a decent high tpi tyre (eg 120) on a fatbike and then it works properly.

In fact I've never seen one

there are regularly 4 on our rides, fatty, fatty trail, dune and a beargrease, canyon dude has been know to tag along too

But part of this perception problem is there's a lot of crap tyres out there now, usually fitted to nonQBP bikes and they are dire to ride with. Put a decent high tpi tyre (eg 120) on a fatbike and then it works properly.

Yes, it should go without saying that tyres (and wheels) make a huge difference. That's true for all bikes of course, but especially so with truck wheels.

For example, the Ice Cream Truck that I took out for a demo ride had Bud/Lou tyres with tubes on 100mm clownshoe rims. It had all the grip and float you could possibly want, but it was a matter of spin along and you'll get there in the end. For my build I went with Jumbo Jim tyres, tubeless on 80mm DT rims. It's hardly surprising that this combination is a fair bit faster. It wont have the same grip or float in snow/sand/bog of course, but that's just the trade-off you have to make.

But part of this perception problem is there's a lot of crap tyres out there now, usually fitted to nonQBP bikes and they are dire to ride with. Put a decent high tpi tyre (eg 120) on a fatbike and then it works properly.

Interesting through, that the newest, lightest and 120tpi tyre (the Kenda) is actually the worst.

I'd be interested to see how something like a Nate does on that test, the Larry is an odd tread pattern and not really comparable to the others they tested (likewise the Vee8 is an anomaly).

http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/

shermer75 - Member

I saw a bloke commuting on one in London for the first time yesterday, he seemed happy enough

I rode mine to work once because my commuter had a flat. It was pretty orrible tbh 😆 But good fun on the pump track after work.

My Garmin must be on the fritz then ,seems like im quicker on my fatty on a fair few climbs and Peak routes than my Five , and it handled the Borrowdale bash with ease while my Five was under warrenty repair , against other full bounce bikes too.

Sorry but fats are fun

thisisnotaspoon - Member
Interesting through, that the newest, lightest and 120tpi tyre (the Kenda) is actually the worst...

Yes, I should have made it clear that it's a rule of thumb, not an absolute.

To put it more clearly, you need a compliant sidewall to get the most benefit from a fat tyre. After that, tread affects the feel most.

interesting reading, i thought a fatty bike would be horrible for uphills on local terrain, once i get a bigger garage and the prices have come down i'm tempted..

and they always put a smile on my face in the shop, once aw one at llandegla, the bloke seemed happy and his mate was insisting he'd done enough and they swap

In South Wales there are many steep climbs with loose sandstone rocks that are pretty challenging on a normal bike; I bet you'd cruise up them with a fattie.

I rode mine to work once

Do they do 4" slicks? I bet that'd be a right laugh on roundabouts.

tubeless on 80mm DT rims. It's hardly surprising that this combination is a fair bit faster.

Why? Interested.

Do they do 4" slicks? I bet that'd be a right laugh on roundabouts.

On one BSC type 1, and surly black floyd.

tubeless on 80mm DT rims. It's hardly surprising that this combination is a fair bit faster.
Why? Interested.

1) Jumbo Jims are the fastest (probably) treaded fat bike tyres, Bud and Lou are basically 4.8" mud tyres (but probably not the worst rolling),

2) Tubeless makes a big difference on a fat bike.

3) light if not the lightest aluminium 80mm rims Vs 100mm (not particularly light although there aren't any other 100mm rims I can think of). Smaller rims = faster rolling in fat bikes.

Without getting all defensive...

Its slower almost everywhere.

It will climb almost anything if you can hang on.

I never want to get another puncture in one.

A lot more capable on steep stuff than I initially thought it would be.

Mine is definitely slower for almost all of the riding I do. I can put a number on it for XC, it's almost exactly 25% slower- based on glentress seven results on an xc bike and the fatbike. For harder trails that number gets bigger. But I didn't get it to go faster.

shermer75 - Member
I saw a bloke commuting on one in London for the first time yesterday, he seemed happy enough

I rode mine to work once because my commuter had a flat. It was pretty orrible tbh But good fun on the pump track after work.

stopped riding mine to work (unless it snows) as kept getting more verbal abuse than usual from the school kids.

having said that my commute is about to get shorter and more off road-able so i might use it more!

To put some perspective on how 'slow' my fatbike is, I co-incidentally set-out the same time as another guy from Winchester to attempt a Southdowns Double last summer. He was going for the XC-racer bare-minimum approach whereas I was certainly carrying more kit and riding to a different schedule - our paths re-crossed just over 11 hours later at Eastbourne and he had gained about 30 minutes after 100miles and 10,000ft of climbing - so a 4.5% advantage. This year I'm about 5-10% faster and will try another double in a few weeks. I expect the rider has as much influence in the equation as the bike - if I want to be really quick over the ground, I'd ride my 17lb CX bike

Good debate certainly seems they work for some folks ..(Anything will if you tell yourself it does)

I'm still convinced it was an April fools type stunt that gained traction and they thought let's see what we can get away with 😥

Progress ? **** Off !!! Sure the money men are rolling around laughing at the gullible 😳

Not sure if reading difficulties or trolling.

Those that claim it's marketing arseholes forcing weirdo bikes down their throats - have a look at fatbike history over the past five or six years.
In the UK, EVERYTHING sold out before it was even available, Surly and the other handful of early companies producing bikes and tyres, rims, etc were endlessly hassled by riders wanting fatbike bits.

The big guns were obviously looking on with interest and all of a sudden everyone had a fatbike in the lineup.

And then fatbikes were suddenly very noticeable and people complain it's being forced on them by evil marketing arseholes.

Yes, they are a bit shit for A) Elite level XC racing B) Downhill racing on DH specific tracks.
For everything else, fat roolz.

I finally got round to cycling to work and back for the first time this year, on my JJ 4.0 snakeskin equipped Wazoo today at ~25/28PSI. 🙂

Given my current fitness levels are positively awful, I was shocked to get there in ~22 minutes and home in ~25 minutes, very comparable to my other bikes. 😯

Now admittedly, my journey times can be influenced a lot by traffic lights (I swear Southampton is now worse than Liverpool for number of lights) and potentially a railway crossing delay on the way home, but even so I thought I would be noticeably slower.

These JJs fly compared to the Mission Commands, 38/20 gear is far more doable without my legs and knees giving me grief.

Racing, then - can someone organic use a fatbike race? Using a variety of crappy surfaces rather than just on a beach?

Um. I'm organic. I'd say I'd "enter" a fatbike race rather than "use" one.

Fatbike classes mean fatbikes are competitive. Not sure if they're organic.

There's a class at mayhem this year and Run & Ride have fat bike classes too in nearly all of their events.

Now, more importantly is it flats or spd's on a fattie?

*organise

A course unrideable on a normal bike.

I love how bikes with a tyre slightly wider than normal hard tails are now shit. An "Enduro" racing lad told me it was stupid the other day. Pointed out that its basically a hardtail MTB with bigger tyres. But it seems Fatty's are the anti-Christ of the Gnar boi's.....Oh well I will just live with it being shit. Out of all of my bikes my fat bike is the one thats most capable across all disciplines. Jack of all trades master of none, which suits me. Its definitely not my fastest bike, its just a different type of fun. I find most people that dont get it have never tried one. Most have orders in for a YT capra.. 😉

In fact I paid for my new Smokestone frame today. First person to officially "Buy" One

Te internet trolls will be hating it!

They all look a bit shit though.

l of early companies producing bikes and tyres, rims, etc were endlessly hassled by riders wanting fatbike bits

When Pugsleys couldn't be had for love or money, I made one or two fat frames - I thought they were a daft idea too until I tried one. I haven't ridden them enough to know if they're faster or slower, but what really struck me after the first ride was their imperturbability - they're just not fussed what you point them at, they'll happily trundle over things that'd make a conventional MTB skittish.

I must admit that I don't get fat bikes (or even plus sized). I can't quite work out what all the fuss is about. I can't quantify what makes them better.

But then I've never tried one. And fun is pretty difficult to quantify! So if people enjoy them, then go for it. I'll be watching with a puzzled look on my face trying work out why.

Neb - Member
I must admit that I don't get fat bikes (or even plus sized). I can't quite work out what all the fuss is about. I can't quantify what makes them better.

Easy, when there isn't a trail, you need a proper mountainbike.

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Injecting drugs, Opera, Morris dancing, Pegging & Fat Bikes

Sometimes it's better to go through life without knowing how awesome something "may" have been

Injecting drugs, Opera, Morris dancing, [b]Pegging & Fat Bikes[/b]

Sometimes it's better to go through life without knowing how awesome something "may" have been

😆

puzzled look on my face trying work out why

Try one and that puzzle will be solved.

Great pics epicycle !! Fantastic that you've found a bike that suits you and your riding. But honestly what are you, in the 1% of mtb'ers ?
Fat bikes are a niche bike they won't suit everyone, and my guess is that they've plateauad already. Yes I've ridden one and they're not for me. Why because they are exactly what they say on the tin FAT !!

I've posted this before (and apologies to Gartner - again)

[img] [/img]

I suspect the majority of fatbike owners are still at stage 2. Some (already witnessed on this thread) are at stage 3. Many have move on to stage 5 - where a balance of expectation and ability has been reached and a fatbike is just one option from the quiver.

Is stage 2 also the one where they go on and on and on and on and on and on about them? Waffling endlessly about hub types and bottom bracket widths etc etc. Ride what you've got and have fun but don't be an insufferable bore about it.

My Fat Bike timeline...
Curious...
See second hand Fatty for £500...
Think I'll buy it and can flog it for £400 if I don't like it.....
Like it but will only use it as my winter shit bike......
Dry ,summer trails and still riding it.

Is stage 2 also the one where they go on and on and on and on and on and on about them?

Don't forget the fun factor. Ordinary mtbs aren't fun but the simple addition of comedy soft tyres they become fun. Driving down the motorway with four soft tyres type of fun or playing football with a punctured ball. Paddling a half inflated dingy wearing a brightly coloured bow-tie - FUN!

Ordinary mtbs aren't fun

You are doing it wrong then

Thats the thing right there.. I'm with the OP actually...

Just choose your item, add a reason for not owning it and there is the justification you are looking for to underpin the expanded generalisation for writing off the whole genre.

So in my book, all:
Road bikes
Enduro chariots
tricycles
etc are indeed, shit

stevenmenmuir - Member
Is stage 2 also the one where they go on and on and on and on and on and on about them? Waffling endlessly about hub types and bottom bracket widths etc etc.

ZZZZZZZZZZZ, sorry did you say something?

Are we at peak fat?

Just choose your item, add a reason for not owning it and there is the justification you are looking for to underpin the expanded generalisation for writing off the whole genre.

So in my book, all:
Road bikes

I have a road bike. I can confirm your suspicions.

I personally couldn't give a flying what people think about fatbikes, all I know is I haven't rode my Other sh*t bikes since I got mine, and its well capable of Anything that I am! the miles seem to fly by and the fun level is cranked up to 10 when im out on it 😀 see you all at the Sam Houghton and (GET OUTTA MY WAAAAAAAAY) Lol

Grippy as hell. Avoiding wheelspin means you can pace technical climbs better, whereas on 2.*" you'd peak into the red to keep moving when you lose traction and be in recovery in between.

On looser surfaces, the threshold of grip feels more predictable, so you can hold a fast 2-wheel-drift if you have the nerve. Foot out, dab of oppo, etc.

Downhill, the larger tyre absorbs angled rocks and roots pretty well so doesn't twitch around as much as a conventional wheel, so you can more often take the line you want, so long as you have the mass and strength to steer against the larger contact patch and larger gyro effect. First thing I upgraded on my fatbike and will upgrade on my GF's fatbike is brakes, because they descend a lot faster than you think.

In general I think they're better suited to physiques closer to "track sprinter" rather than "mountain goat". A fatbike asks more of you and if you're too weedy you will feel assaulted.

There is a lot of variation in fatbike design that tends to be ignored. Earlier bikes tend to be "retro XC"/bikepacker, whereas fatbikes like the On-One Fatty with slacker headangles and shorter chainstays pander to adrenaline junkies. My GF says her Genesis Caribou (older orange model, steel, bosses everywhere) is quite hard work now that we're out of mud-plugging season, whilst she says "[my On-One Fatty] just seems to [i]want to go[/i]".

Be a boring world if everyone liked the same things.

I love my fatty for various reasons, but I also love my bouncer, hardtail and road bike for differing reasons. All have positives and negatives and non are shite.

I love my fatty for various reasons, but I also love my bouncer, hardtail and road bike for differing reasons.

So what you "need" is a full-sus carbon fatbike with proper lockout and a second set of "Fat-Not-Fat"-style wheels 😉

Sounds like you're not at S-1 yet, so N+1 is cheaper and easier.

I was taking my fatbike off the roof of the car the other day and there were a bunch of runners milling around getting ready for their run. One of them asked me what was the point of the big tyres. I must admit, I was somewhat thrown by the question. All I could come up with was "fun I guess". I did point out that I was about to ride around in a big circle for the hell of it so there wasn't really a point to any of it. In fact "fun, I guess" would pretty much be the my only defence whatever bike I happened to be riding.

Skip to the end. I think they're brilliant.

I was taking my fatbike off the roof of the car the other day and there were a bunch of runners milling around getting ready for their run. One of them asked me what was the point of the big tyres. I must admit, I was somewhat thrown by the question. All I could come up with was "fun I guess". I did point out that I was about to ride around in a big circle for the hell of it so there wasn't really a point to any of it. In fact "fun, I guess" would pretty much be the my only defence whatever bike I happened to be riding.

Ask them what the point of going for a bike ride without a bike is?

Like fat bikes, running is probably slower, and probably climbs better, it's just not 'fun' though!

Ask them what the point of going for a bike ride without a bike is?

Like fat bikes, running is probably slower, and probably climbs better, it's just not 'fun' though!

Actually, they weren't even "going for a run". It was apparently a "speed session", which was going to involve running up and down a short section of hill at the start of the trail over and over again, not even getting to see the view. And they thought I was mad 🙂

Someone mentioned hardtails.

After years of trying them I have come to the conclusion that they don't have the immediacy of a good rigid bike or the cush of a full suss, while picking up most of the bad habits of both.

I have now purged the garage of all hardtails. Except my son's.

Can I therefore suggest all hardtails are rubbish.

I'll be back to state that road, bmx, cross, full suss, rigid and balance bikes are rubbish when I can be bothered.

In fact all bikes are rubbish. Save yourself the hassle and just send the cash you were about to drop on one direct to me. It'll save you frustration and disappointment in the long run.

Do you accept Paypal gift?

Depends where you live. Don't think it'd work for me and my local routes any better/more fun than a decent normal tyre but doesn't make them shit, merely inappropriate.