You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
1. It's expensive the manufacture and so also to buy
2. Rear suspension opinion for regular UK riding appears to be turning more towards 100mm-125mm and the benefits of VPP are dubious under 125mm travel (??)
3. The physics of DW link are superior and it works better over a wider range of travel eg 105mm Flux to full on downhill bikes
4. Platform shocks are so good that simpler systems do the job as well
5. The novelty of your suspension locking out when pedel has worn off
6. Heavy
?
1. No moreso than DW and plenty mfrs add needless linkages etc to distinguish their designs anyway.
2-3. No doubt the magazines are saying that!
I'd replace 4-5 with:
4. If you learn to pedal properly then bob need not be an issue.
[b]HAS [s]VPP[/s] SUSPENSION HAD IT'S DAY?
trailertrash - Member
1. It's expensive to manufacture and to buy
2. [s]Rear suspension opinion for[/s] regular UK riding appears to be turning more towards [s]100mm-125mm[/s] hardtails, and the benefits of [s]VPP[/s] suspension are dubious under 125mm travel (??)
3. [s]The physics of DW link are superior and they works better over a wider range of travel eg 105mm Flux to full on downhill bikes[/s] we're not all getting paid to race Dh
4. [s]Platform shocks[/s] hardtails are [s]so[/s] good enough [s]that simpler systems do the job as well[/s]
5. The novelty of [s]your[/s] suspension [s]locking out when pedel[/s] has worn off
fixed it for you!
People do realise that DW link designs are just a type of four bar with added marketing, don't they? That's not to say they're not good but what they do is just a particular tweak of the four bar and it's only because of the US's stupidly lax patent rules (also allowing silly things like patenting Horst link) that it can be marketed as a unique design and why Giant fell foul with the Maestro design.
1. give me an example of a needless linkage. if you need to distingiush your design then it's not needless. irrelevant reply anyway. vpp bikes are expensive.
2. lots of people are saying that. look around...? lot's of folk going back to ht
4. you might be able to lessen bob by using spds and honking less but the fundamental problem is a result of moving masses and technique isn't going to fix it.
The novelty of your suspension locking out when pedel has worn off
I don't understand this bit.
If it offers an advantage, then how is that a novelty ?
People do realise that DW link designs are just a type of four bar with added marketing, don't they? That's not to say they're not good but what they do is just a particular tweak of the four bar and it's only because of the US's stupidly lax patent rules (also allowing silly things like patenting Horst link) that it can be marketed as a unique design and why Giant fell foul with the Maestro design.
I think you are oversimplifying slightly. Sure there are patent issues, but by the same token Rocky Mountain's ETSX system is a VPP system just with different length linkages. It's not really a valid criticism of the arguments.
I don't understand this bit.
If it offers an advantage, then how is that a novelty ?
I think you mean why would one not find that desirable forever?
Because permanently active suspension give better traction and control?
1. Don't care
2. Ride the bike you want and not the one that you have been 'told' to ride
3. I'm with clubber on this one
4. Your just solving a problem by adding complication elsewhere but only if you perceive there to be a problem in the first place
5. Sprinting on a VPP bike is a joy and the suspension still works. So that's a good thing
6. Heavy, really? No more so than anything else
What's your beef with VPP?
give me an example of a needless linkage
[img]
[/img]
it's starts off life as a 5-bar linkage - which won't work. but then the magic 'equilink' ties 2 of the 5 links together, removing 1 degree of freedom, making it work like a 4 bar.
completely pointless.
the action of the felt equilink is not unlike the Edge bikes/DW link/maestro design, it's just much more complicated.
What's your beef with VPP?
No beef, just starting a potentially interesting debate 🙂
[img] [/img]
That linkage is a necessary part of the VPP system, otherwise the rear axle could wander around all over the place rather than follow an arc. Have a think about it or make a model with paper and drawing pins.
i understand it perfectly.
the equilink is necessary, yes you're right, but only because there are 5 pivot points.
the e-link ties 2 of them together, making it an Edge/DWlink/maestro with 5 pivots.
it's a 4-bar with 5 pivots
sorry, 7 pivots.
it's a 4-bar with 7 pivot points.
completely pointless.
Fair enough. Debate is good and good VPP bike is a lovely thing to ride and own IMHO.
My point is that dw is just one implementation, not the holy Grail.
but by the same token Rocky Mountain's ETSX system is a VPP system just with different length linkages
Well yes, but really they're just all four bars. VPP is marketing as is DW as they're all four bars and not inherently better than eachother.
Here's another one:
10 speed and gearboxes will increasingly remove pivot point placement issues and further reduce the problems of chain tension variation induced bob in suspension bikes, making single pivot bikes even more attractive.
i understand it perfectly.the equilink is necessary, yes you're right, but only because there are 5 pivot points.
the e-link ties 2 of them together, making it an Edge/DWlink/maestro with 5 pivots.
it's a 4-bar with 5 pivots
sorry, 7 pivots.
it's a 4-bar with 7 pivot points.
completely pointless.
Equilink is necessary but completely pointless? eh? 😀
I had VPP on a Blur.
As I understand it, the weight of the rider lunging on the pedals tries to extend the linkage.
The tension on the chain tries to shorten it.
The two cancel each other out.
The effect of the chain tension will vary depending on gear, because of the position of the chain in relation to the linkage, so it will work better in some gears than others.
However, I used it with a Rohloff and found it did exactly what it claimed to do in all gears.
the link is necessary to make the design work, the design is pointless.
it works like a 4-bar, but it's got 7 pivot points.
it's a stupid design, clever, but stupid.
they've removed the 'tie' from between the seatstay/chainstay, and put a pivot down near the rear axle, and introduced the 'equilink' to remove the degree of freedom that's only there because they removed the 'tie' from between the seatstay/chainstay, and put a pivot down near the rear axle,
Well yes, but really they're just all four bars. VPP is marketing as is DW as they're all four bars and not inherently better than eachother.
I think the interesting thing is that the number of bars is irrelevant. It's all about axle path not the number of bars. Gettign hung up on the number of bars is to fall for the oversimplification side of the hype itself no?
The good thing about VPP imho is that it gives the opportunity for some vertical or rearward axle path at the start of the stroke (remember when everyone used to talk about J shaped axle paths?) and this might actuall offer some advantages in terms of traversing rough terrain....
Trailertrash - Possibly to a point but that's saying that chain forces are all that affect suspension. There's braking and also wheel thrust - the last of which is usually forgotten about - basically the rear wheel pushing the bike forward. If the rear axle isn't in line with the pivots the suspension will compress or extend even if the chain is in line with the pivot. Propedal helps but ultimately always reduces small bump compliance.
Possibly to a point but that's saying that chain forces are all that affect suspension. There's braking and also wheel thrust - the last of which is usually forgotten about - basically the rear wheel pushing the bike forward. If the rear axle isn't in line with the pivots the suspension will compress or extend even if the chain is in line with the pivot. Propedal helps but ultimately always reduces small bump compliance.
in a far as I am aware it's the line of action of the force that counts, not the path by which it's transferred, but I could be wrong.
But there's more than one effect. Most designs including dw are just trying to balance them so they cancel out.
the link is necessary to make the design work, the design is pointless.it works like a 4-bar, but it's got 7 pivot points.
it's a stupid design, clever, but stupid.
No dude. I see the confusion, but it's more complex than that. It's quite different to SC's version of VPP for sure but it's not a 4 bar, whatever we agree that that might be.
But there's more than one effect. Most designs including dw are just trying to balance them so they cancel out.
Well actually no, because classic Santa Cruz VPP emphasises the chain growth thing to stiffen the suspension, which DW link does not. Very different and very interesting.
They're still trying to balance forces so that braking and pedalling don't stop the suspension behaving how they want.
They're still trying to balance forces so that braking and pedalling don't stop the suspension behaving how they want.
Yup. Do you think SC will go fully over to the single pivot bikes eventually, the Nickel etc?
I thought this could be an interesting thread. but I CBA engaging with an OP who just has a point to prove and wants to rubbish anyone that disagrees with her.
"The good thing about VPP imho is that it gives the opportunity for some vertical
or rearward axle path at the start of the stroke ( remember when everyone used
to talk about J shaped axle paths?) and [b]this might actuall offer some advantages
in terms of traversing rough terrain . . ..[/b]"
This shows your ignorance/magazine dependence.
If it made a difference, there'd be no "might" about it. Mfrs and the press rely on this smoke and mirrors approach in their marketing because there is little to separate the different systems in use.
Don't...don't....don't believe the hype!
The 'lockout' on a VPP design is caused by the two bars rotating against each other in turn caused by blah blah blah, it works.
oh I just remembered a classic faux pas in the latest mag...one reviewer saying a bike had been designed to work with the chain in the small chainring!
LOLLERCOPTERS111
I never understood how strange axle travel paths were supposed to help.
I just looked at VPP as a way of using the horizontal force on the chain to counteract the vertical force on the pedal and I was happy with it.
oh al, pot/kettle.
I never understood how strange axle travel paths were supposed to help.
I just looked at VPP as a way of using the horizontal force on the chain to counteract the vertical force on the pedal and I was happy with it.
I think it's to do with the rear wheel being able to move backwards relative to the frame on hitting a rock rather than avin to move in an arc about the single pivot point. This would reduce the stopping force on the bike.
+2 hwiles on yer 1st post.
Hmm,yeah,OK.
But the forward movement of the bike will be significantly faster than the rearward movement of the axle, so I can't see this making a difference in theory and never noticed it making a difference in practice.
But the forward movement of the bike will be significantly faster than the rearward movement of the axle, so I can't see this making a difference in theory and never noticed it making a difference in practice.
Yup, that's the bit that confuses me too. I think it's a question of reducing the stopping force relative to a single pivot bike, not eliminating it. But yeah totally, very complicated physics. I have gone back to a hardtail and to be honest I have just as much fun....
If you learn to pedal properly then bob need not be an issue.
Can you explain this technique of pedalling that does not involve you applying a downward force I am intrunqued - youcan reduce it but NEVER eliminate it without lock out which is just cheating.
Having a single pivot and a VPP you can tell the difference and I know which is easier to pedal uphill- the systems do work and not that much price difference between say a Turner, Orange 5 or an Intense at frame only prices.
Having a single pivot and a VPP you can tell the difference and I know which is easier to pedal uphill- the systems do work and not that much price difference between say a Turner, Orange 5 or an Intense at frame only prices.
Nice to hear first hand experience of the two.
Although you can find deals etc there is about £500 between them at £1350 and £1850. That's quite a bit. Orange 5 seems a bit overpriced imho.
give me an example of a needless linkage
[img] 
[/img]
a 4-bar driving a 4-bar.
7 pivots to make a bike that works exactly like one with 4 pivots
Given that people seem to be able traverse terrain equally competently on bikes with pretty much any acronym based suspension technology. Is it not reasonable to assume that any arguments on the merits of one over another is as productive as debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
Singlepivot systems are just as guilty of 'marketing hype' as any other system.
A badly designed and tuned suspension system will be poor, whatever.
a [s]4[/s]3-bar driving a [s]4[/s]3-bar.7 pivots to make a bike that works exactly like one with 4 pivots
I'll give you that one 🙂 you could drive the shock direct off the black link in the back, with a really long link. Shock needs to stay where it is though as there is no room behind the seatpost when the suspension is fully compressed.
Can't disagree there brant - especially faux bars.
Singlepivot systems are just as guilty of 'marketing hype' as any other system.
A badly designed and tuned suspension system will be poor, whatever.
do you see a coming reduction in the popularity of VPP bikes in the uk? or shall we say 'relatively complex and expensive suspension systems'. i think it could be.
"trailertrash - Member
Singlepivot systems are just as guilty of 'marketing hype' as any other system.
A badly designed and tuned suspension system will be poor, whatever.
do you see a coming reduction in the popularity of VPP bikes in the uk? or shall we say 'relatively complex and expensive suspension systems'. i think it could be."
Given the increase in the unemloyed, the cost of living etc I reckon we will see a downturn in exotic bikes being bought/sold. Hence the reason why high end bikes are becoming more expensive/exclusive, imo ofcourse.
Be interesting to see the visitor numbers to trail centres over the next few yrs 💡
I have only have one fs bike, a `05 Kona Dawg. Took me 3yrs to find the bike I liked to [i]ride[/i] During those 3yrs I attended numerous test days at various venues, listened to all the hype and ended up buying what was probably the simplest bike baring the Oranges which irritated my knees and through experience of others were not on my wish list anyway.
Forget the hype as has already been said and if like me you do not understand or are able to
then it is waisted anyway ❗feel it
folk will always buy the next greatest thing, especially if it's expensive.
As for pedal bob junkyard, it causes me no bother at all on my 5" single pivot bike, and yes I've tried various systems. I'd even race on it. I just don't see why folk get so hung up about it (other than having been sucked in) thinking they'll get to the top of a climb a few seconds quicker. Unless they are racing, and even then it's well established that full Sus feels slower but is actually faster.
it's a long time since I saw any marketing for sp based on anything other than it's simplicity.
Has anyone here other than Adam designed, built and raced a full sus bike of their own? You may not agree with him (I do) but at least he's putting his ideas into practice and doing some real world, not just armchair, testing
Who's Adam?
thepodge you can't say folks' opinions are not valid because they aren't designers.
Unless they are racing, and even then it's well established that full Sus feels slower but is actually faster.
is it? probably depends on the full sus. a lot of xc race bikes are lightweight hardtails.
I just don't see why folk get so hung up about it (other than having been sucked in) thinking they'll get to the top of a climb a few seconds quicker.
because getting into the detail is part of the fun for some people? and that's quite fine.
There have been (reasonably scientific) tests that show that racers ride faster with lower heart rates on full suss.
I wouldn't take heed of the racing community's rate of take-up of new technology as a guide to whether it works or not.
yeah getting into the detail can be fun for sure, I just like to keep handle on it's actual relevance.
no, I don't expect you would take heed 🙂 but actually they were pretty quick on front suspension as I recall.
have you got any references for these tests? they would be interesting to read.
I've used a single pivot bike for 4 years,Orange 5,and my current Giant for 3 years, with the multi link rear suspension, and for me the multi link bike pedals far better than the single pivot.Its most noticeable on rocky climbs but its equally as good on smoother fire roads.
Downhill there is very little difference,but the Giant just seems to cope with square edge hits a bit better,and the back end feels more composed braking hard into rocky corners.
If the Orange 5 is considered one of the best single pivot bikes then i will be sticking to the multis.
Has VPP had it's day?
No.
HTH.
Giant just seems to cope with square edge hits
Can't believe it took almost 3 pages for this little gem to be rolled out...
the main problem with simple single pivot designs is that the shock rate is actualy falling rate,, somewhat overcome by the use of air sprung shocks,,
most more modern single pivot now have a linkage to drive the rear shock so the shock rate can now be tuned to what the designer wants ,or what he thinks he wants
i still think j shaped axle paths or at least those with an initial rearward movement have potential to help over larger square edge bumps
or use larger wheels but it's pointless in my opinion to have the j shaped part in the part of the travel before the sag point as it will hardly get used
i use a bit of software called linkage to design and compare different suspension systems it is very interesting comparing the axle path of compicated systems with a single pivot design ,,
i feel the problem is that every year the companies have to bring out new bikes with new features to try to get the punters to buy new models making last years obsolete and worthless
funny thing is the the laast bike i was working on was a single pivot linkage driven dh bike,,, and the current project is a rigid 29er
" the back end feels more
composed braking hard into rocky corners ."
is my own favourite 😀
TT there was a test in a mag early last decade. Folk often confuse "feels fast"with "is fast".
thepodge - Member
Has anyone here other than Adam designed, built and raced a full sus bike of their own? You may not agree with him (I do) but at least he's putting his ideas into practice and doing some real world, not just armchair, testing
POSTED 2 HOURS AGO # REPORT-POST
Has anyone here other than me designed a World Cup DH bike?
Am I the most qualified?
Should everyone else bow to me?
FWIW, I'm with al. I've had more podium results since I got a full sus (Maestro design) than I got on my hardtail despite racing less and being about the same fitness.
Has anyone here other than me designed a World Cup DH bike?Am I the most qualified?
Should everyone else bow to me?
my gloating comment was deleted
Specialized's patent on the horst link ends next year. I would expect a whole rash of "new" designs apparently perfecting the long existing horst link design 4 bars. Old will suddenly be new !!
Forgot you were here Ade 🙂
VPP or 'dual link' etc lets you do fun things with well triangulated, er, rear triangles.
Extra costs? Some extra bearings? Pretty minimal in the grand scheme of things.
All dual link or vpp are not the same though. And IME it's rate curve that affects ride lots.
The silly thing is that VPP or DW is mechanically the same as a Horst Link. Just with a very short 'chainstay' part.
pointless in my opinion to have the j shaped part in the part of the travel before the sag point as it will hardly get used
I know it's sort of obvious but I hadn't thought of it and that's a really interesting contribution there. Nice.
TT there was a test in a mag early last decade.
unlike that.
so not well established at all then. you sir, have been found guilty of bull**itting.
i am a believer in the KISS ,, ok i have strayed from the path a few times,, and may stray again ,,
The silly thing is that VPP or DW is mechanically the same as a Horst Link. Just with a very short 'chainstay' part.
Yes, see my ETSX comment. All very interesting.
The silly thing is that VPP or DW is mechanically the same as a Horst Link. Just with a very short 'chainstay' part.
so basically VPP/DW etc are all variations on the Horst linkage, designed to get around the patent, then with a bit of BS added to make the consumer think they're improvements when actually they're not...right?!
😀 Not really. The relative lengths of the various parts coupled with how they drive the shock - the rate - control the characteristics of the design. the characteristic of the different design that VPP is most known for is stiffening under pedalling. the predominant characteristic of horst link (someone correct me) is independence from braking forces and the physics behind these distinctions is real. something that cannot be said for my single pivot Yeti ASR which stiffens noticeably under braking making " the back end feel noticeably [u]less[/u] composed braking hard into rocky corners ." which is a perfectly good phrase by the way and a valid observation.
A VPP design without the stiffener bar would just bend all over the place, and a horst link does not need a stiffener bar because the rigid rear triangle is only about 50mm on one side.
"so not well established at all then. you sir, have
been found guilty of bull** itting ."
And you've found what exactly that states a different view?
Oh, yes, now I remember, nothing.
Are you arguing that hardtails are faster than full suss because they feel faster? Do you think a bike with narrower or harder tyres is faster?
Al you made the definitive statement
Unless they are racing, and even then it's well established that full Sus feels slower but is actually faster.
a statement you are unable to substantiate. so you are bull**itting. that's just how it is. just accept it 🙂 c'mon, play the game.
Now, I'm not trying to prove the opposite and haven't tried. that doesn't make you right either...sorry...
I'm still interested though so if you do find that unscientific article you mentioned I'd love to read it.
As for these other areas - tyres etc, perhaps start another thread for that?
Cynic-al. True you can't say that, and I didn't did I? I said I agree with him and he has tried and tested his own theory and design which in my eyes ranks him above other people who have not.
Brant, you're a good designer but I think too many people do bow down to you. Plus that's the second time you've misread and over reacted to one of my posts.
I believe I substantiated Al's statement up there.
In fact, from what I can remember, I see more full sus bikes being ridden to podiums (especially at 24 hour races) these days, so it's not just me. Though I don't turn up to many of the sub 10 hour events these days.
Has anyone here other than me designed a World Cup DH bike?
Which one? Did it win?
I believe I substantiated Al's statement up there.
No mate, you just said you have done better on a full suss and you see more people wining on full suss now [than before?] in enduro. Different thing. Lots of races, Lots of podiums etc.
I don't really care t b h but I am not going to pretend I know the answer either.
yawn another interesting thread turns into playground bickering ,,, oh well we did manage almost two pages of interesting informed comment
give us some more quality comment then ade. it's why i started the thread....i am also pretty fed up with cynical comments putting down other poster's well meaning contributions.
can you tell us a bit more about Linkage?
I like things that go boing.
Of my favourite things that go boing, Yeti's are fun and fast, Ibis's are springy and feel comfy all day, Nicolai's are well put together....
However. There is no other truth than it is more about the rider than the nuts bolts and bouncy bits fitted.
Most of the people i ride with have every suspension type covered in the group. Some are rapid, some are slow, some don't really care about the gubbins, some really really do.
Personally - no system is better than another although on paper they may have more merit as a design to tackle a problem etc.
Hardtails rule anyway, my mmmbop feels like it's on warp drive all the time but I am probably slower on it than on my Mojo. Ultimately i aint racing so it's of no consequence.
If i was then i would focus on my legs rather than my bearings 8)
Anyway. 2p worth etc
"As for these other areas - tyres etc, perhaps start
another thread for that?"
My point is that "feels fast" =/= "fast", which seems to be the basis of your position, so those points are entirely relevant.