[Closed] Hard tail or full suspension

Personal. Hardtails are lighter and better specced generally at any specific price point. They pedal better on some surfaces, but struggle for traction on rougher ground.

Thanks mate. The more feed back the better

Full suss all the way IMO but depends what you have in mind. With the new 2015 bikes coming out now you can get a good deal on a 2014 decent spec bike. Do you have a budget in mind?

A decent HT will be so much better to ride than a low level full susser IMO.

Plus depends on the riding you do.

What scandal said. Depends where you ride.
For local XC, bridleways and the like I ride my hard tail.
At trail centres and in the mountains I'm more likely to take my FS.
In general I'd steer clear of cheaper full sussers because they will be heavy and have poor components.

Bruce +1, after getting beaten up at afan today on my HT, which is fine for 99% of my local riding. You can seemingly get a lots of bike for you money ATM 2nd hand, especially if you go 26er. That said there some real dogs for sale too, so tread carefully if you go down that route

You are right that the question's been asked many times before. I would agree that a mid range HT will probably be better than a bottom end FS but it might be swayed by what type of riding you do / want to do.

My budget is going to be around the 1200pound mark. I'm just about to move to West Yorkshire from Australia so most of my ridding will be local(there were some great tracks in the latest mbr mag). I think I am heading towards a 27.5 hard tail, just worried about the comfort. Are there any bikes you could recommend ?
Cheers

Bird Zero 2 is £1200

For £1200 used may be a much better route for full sus. If you want new then HT's will come out better but have a look round for something heavily reduced but well specced. If the frame is right then upgrades may be possible so check for a tapered head tube and the ability to take 650 wheels possibly.

Some 26" used ideas
http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1651116/
http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1651107/
http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1631339/
http://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1651168/

I like hardtails.

They're fun, simple and don't stop me going anywhere I couldn't go on a full suss.
I like full suss bikes, but I don't need one for the mincing around I do.

I bet you could get a nice Canyon full suss or something in the sales for £1200.

In general I'd steer clear of cheaper full sussers because they will be heavy and have poor components.

Rode a 1500 quid full susser out in Portugal and have never been so scared riding a bike since the late 1990's or early 2000's.

Long stem, narrow bars, flexy forks, high BB, god awful rear shock. I'd rather have been on a hardtail with a nice short stem and 750mm+ wide bars.

Yes, they batter you to death but I'll be more likely to go and hit local xc rides, dirt jumps and street features on a hardtail. Full sussers bore me on anything but good fast and rough descents. I'll get a new full susser when I can afford run a 1k+ hardtail and a 3k full susser.

£1200 doesn't get you much in the way of a full sus bike. They exist for sure, but I'd argue you need to spend a bit more to get a new full sus bike worthy of purchase. Obviously some 2nd hand bikes worthy of purchase will fall into your budget.

On a hardtail though... £1200 gets you a phenomenal bike! For me it would be the Whyte 901. But there's dozens of worthy bikes within your budget. And if you're prepared to go 2nd hand, then there's some exceptionally nice bikes out there (especially some unfashionable 26" wheeled bikes) for quite a bit less than £1200 to be fair.

Also check out the end of line deals here, some very competent bikes might just be sneaking into your price range, (about $2500 au?) if the size fits...

I'm a firm believer in hard tails giving people with less experience, better 'training'. You'll understand exactly what the bike's doing, why and what you need to do with your body to stop you falling off / going slowly.

As someone who's pretty fresh to mtb'ing, I guess you're also pretty fresh to maintenance. Full sus bikes need more of that!

If I were you, I'd get a bike like either of these (honestly, if I had the money, I'd buy one for myself). The Bfe in particular will take quite a hammering. Is very well specced. Dammit. Wish I had a spare 1k! Plus, that 200 can get you a skills course, bike holiday etc.

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/for-sale-cotic-soul-1

http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/cotic-bfe-medium-for-sale-or-swap

Also, should you get bitten by the riding bug hard, bikes like these hard tails are easy to justify keeping whilst you add a full sus, a road bike, a CX bike, a single speed........ 😉

@shaun - I'd say go with the hardtail given your budget, but within striking distance of you is some great riding which would benefit a decent full-suss. So start off with the hardtail and as/when you have the funds to get a full-suss as I suspect you'll want to do so. The bikes listed by @makecoldplay are both very good buys IMO, you will get more for your money second hand and people on here are pretty helpful recommending stuff/ads in classifieds. As for comfort a full-suss can smooth things out when pedalling seated but just get out on the bike and your body will adapt.

Hardtail all the way. The On-One Parkwood is a bargain if you feel the need to buy new. Don't be put off by the 29in wheels, it's a fun bike.

[url= http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/mountain-bikes/voodoo-bizango-29er-mountain-bike-20 ]All the bike 98% of us will ever need[/url]

[url= http://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/mountain-bikes/boardman-mountain-bike-team-full-suspension-650b-2014 ]All the bike 99% of us will ever need[/url]

If you're OK with buying direct, the [url= http://www.canyon.com/_en/mountainbikes/bike.html?b=3573 ]Canyon Nerve AL 6.0[/url] is a great full suss for £1200.

Long stem, narrow bars, flexy forks, high BB, god awful rear shock. I'd rather have been on a hardtail with a nice short stem and 750mm+ wide bars.

What a daft argument. So you're saying an Apollo with short stem and wide bars would be better?

That's like saying that you wouldn't ride a road bike because you tried one once and the saddle was uncomfy 🙄

There are a few decent full-sus options around that budget.
No personal experience, but they get good reviews in the mags (if that means anything!)

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ghost-asx-5500-suspension-bike-2014/rp-prod111439
http://paulscycles.co.uk/m1b0s1p4945/GIANT-ANTHEM-X-2-2013
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/commencal-meta-sl-4-suspension-bike-2013/rp-prod83515

etc

Klumpy speaks the truth

I bought a Bizango, and I love it, but I do wish I'd have spent a little bit more and got that Boardman, I miss full suss at times, up in Scotland the other week it was all of the times!!!!

Tough one eh.
If you can get a decent 2nd hand full sus I would grab one. Short travel 29er (if you're tall) or a 650b if you can as 26 is out the window now.

I live in West Yorkshire and the woods are perfect for moshing about on a hardtail, and I welcome the low maintenance of it especially as it usually pretty damn muddy.
If your going for a hardtail consider a steel frame to give you a bit more give than something aluminium and make sure you can use some big travel folks with it.

Full suss all the way if you are planning to ride off road. Plenty of goods bikes for a reasonable budget.

@klumpy 98% of us would want a better bike than either of those, the vast majority of us here have better bikes than those. If that was what we could afford and there where no other choices we'd probably all get out there and ride those but for the money I'd much rather have one of the two second hand Cotic's that where posted. The ride quality would be much better.

For £1200, a HT.

I wouldn't buy new FS at that price, maybe would buy 2nd hand but I'd have to know its history or be very confident the seller is honest.

Hardtail all the way. The On-One Parkwood is a bargain if you feel the need to buy new. Don't be put off by the 29in wheels, it's a fun bike.

Amen.

Thinking about it, you could have some serious fun building your own HT on that budget, including a load of beers to aid the process.

I'm a very recent 29er convert and you could do a heck of a lot worse than to get yourself a 29" hardtail and go and play. An FS bike is a nice thing to have, but it'll bring a higher maintenance bill with it, not to mention greater weight and a less impressive spec than the equivalent hardtail.

Also +1 for getting some mates around and building it yourself. You can spread the cost over a few months and you learn a lot of useful stuff along the way.

Get the hardtail. You'll get a half decent Groupset, fork, wheels and finishing kit at that price. You then have the option of buying a nice used full sus frame at a later date and moving your bits across, if you want to..or not.

Get the hardtail. You'll get a half decent Groupset, fork, wheels and finishing kit at that price. You then have the option of buying a nice used full sus frame at a later date and moving your bits across, if you want to..or not.

Good point - it's not necessarily an either/or in the long term.

I've never ridden full suss as I love hardtails too much!

+1 for the build your own option as well - you'll love it all the more.

Lived and ridden in West Yorks for most of my life, I ride a Cotic Soul. I have a 140mm FS too, the Cotic is just more fun round here. Most of the locals I know ride hardtails most of the time. Also, the weather is shite and the mud is especially gritty so the maintenance savings on a HT can be significant compared to something with a load of joints and bearings. With your budget I would be getting a HT, definitely.

Also, if you're moving from Aus you're going to simply *love* our weather, oh yes. 😉

@klumpy 98% of us would want a better bike than either of those, the vast majority of us here have better bikes than those.

I don't see a "need" in there. And I'm not sure that the herd behaviour of STW is a good starting point for giving advice to humans. This is a place where paying a 300% premium for a frame because it has a 6 month waiting list and is made by a beard in a shed is normal. Where buying tyres on a per trail centre basis is normal. Where overshooting a corner means you start to experiment with pad/disk combinations - and post about them.

The OP wants to ride a bike.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

😆

For what it's worth...

I reckon the single biggest thing that affects whether a bike is good is the fork (wheels and brakes come in just behind). You can go pretty fast and do some pretty hilarious stuff on a hardtail riding the fork and keeping the back nice and light, as long as the fork is good.

Rear suspension is great, of course, but the fork needs to be right first.

A really good fork will consume a huge proportion of a £1,200 budget. If you're suspending the rear wheel as well, you're going to have less money for the fork. So the most important thing suffers to pay for something you can actually do without.

If you're buying a perfect bike, the right order of things to spend money on is: fork (£500), wheels (£300), brakes (£200). That's £1,000. Obviously we're going to blow through your budget if we carry on like that specc'ing a hardtail, but you can get a really good hardtail frame for £500. A decent full-sus is another £1,000 on top of that.

That's the sort of maths that pulls me towards hardtails anyway. My ideal hardtail is about 2.5x your budget. My ideal full-sus is waaaay more, so I've never bought it.

🙂

This (as posted by DezB)

http://paulscycles.co.uk/m1b0s1p4945/GIANT-ANTHEM-X-2-2013 <

I would've said Hardtail for your budget, something steel that can take forks of varying lengths, try for 650b too if you plan on keeping it for a while...easy enough to do, On-One, Stanton, Cotic etc....

That said, i didnt realise the 650b 130mm FS Boardman was only £1000, i'd try and get a ride on that, read all the reviews i could find on the internet etc etc....the Sektor fork is fine, i have one on a hardtail, the x5/x7 2x10 drivetrain is also fine, funnily enough i had this on a complete build i got from On-One and despite my reservations and love of all things Shimano it has been great and lives on giving faultless service on the next bike i built.

Provided that Boardman rides ok with no silly angles or weird ride characteristics then thats where my money would go....jesus, we really are being ripped off by the big names in this sport!

Thanks for all the awesome feed back. I'm probably more lost than ever now hahaha. The more I read the better bike I want. Couple more questions. Am I taking a massive back step if I was to get a really good second hand 26inch?? And the other is I'm starting to like the sound of building my own bike but where do I start. I'm here on holiday at the moment and move here in December so seeing the weather won't be the best it could be a good chance to build 1.

I got myself a very nice, second hand, FS for your budget and as long as you don't mind have having out of vogue wheels, that'd be a good way to go. The classifieds on here are a good place to go looking for decent, gently used bikes (paint may be a bit thin from all the polishing though).

But as you're fairly new to riding i suggest a hardtail - new or second hand. There are many reasons for this and most are listed above. But the main reason is that it'll make you a better rider in the long run. Some might disagree with this, but they'd be wrong.

Question to the masses. Where are these trail centres that require a FS bike? I've only ridden the Scottish ones (apart from AE) and my considerably cheaper than £1200 hardtail was spot on. Are the English/Welsh ones really that much different?

I agree with bigdummy regarding good forks on a hardtail. That and a strong back wheel and you are good to go.

I'd go for a hardtail and then you can N+1 it with a full sus later - but the weather/ground conditions will suit a hardtail better - more time riding, less time building.

That said, you could certainly get a decent full sus if you shop around or go second hand.

Am I taking a massive back step if I was to get a really good second hand 26inch??

Not at all. You'll get a lot more for your money that way.

Question to the masses. Where are these trail centres that require a FS bike?

There arent any really.

I've ridden DH courses on my hartail...but i'm not as fast and it's a lot harder!
It's progression, FS exists to make our lives easier, unless you really like HTs then it makes sense to go with the best bike for the job which is usually FS these days....and i say that as a HT rider (Ragley Piglet 2 on 26s and On-One 45650b on 27.5s).

I will go as far as to say that FS can make you a lazy rider, it got to the point on my last FS bike that i was spending most of the ride sat down....it was like pedaling a big comfy armchair around the woods, nothing wrong with that i suppose but i got lazy with body positioning, weighting the bike etc....going back to a HT was a steep learning curve again.

re. building your bike, i took the plunge this year too, previously i'd bought complete or handed parts to the LBS and had them build it up.
This year i did it myself, pressed the headset with a C-clamp and a rubber mallet, cut the fork steerer with a plumbers pipe cutter....only thing i did concede defeat with was indexing the bloody gears, i couldnt get my head round it at all and had the LBS do it...there are Youtube videos out there that will talk you through everything so i'd happily give it another go.

I've ridden DH courses on my hartail...but i'm not as fast and it's a lot harder!
It's progression, FS exists to make our lives easier, unless you really like HTs then it makes sense to go with the best bike for the job which is usually FS these days

I've ridden DH on my hardtail too and although it's fun but it's hard fun. I'm not knocking FS, i bloody love mine and for some trails it is easily the best tool for the job. It's just i've read a few post on here recently where people wanted FS bikes for mostly trail centre riding and of the ones i've ridden (mostly here in Ireland and the Scottish ones) a hardtail is the perfect tool. The climbs aren't overly technical and the descents are trail centre smooth with the odd rocky bit. Just thought there might be more demanding ones that i've yet to ride that would be better on an FS.

p.s. I hated indexing gears too until i was told the secret. It's piss easy and I can share if you wish?

rear mech set up... [url= http://bikemagic.com/how-to/mountain-bike-maintenance/rear-mech-set-up.html ]works every time for me[/url]

creamegg - Member
rear mech set up... works every time for me

Cheers, that is good plain Enlish, will save that to favourites and give it a go next time i build a bike.

Thanks for all the awesome feed back. I'm probably more lost than ever now hahaha. The more I read the better bike I want. Couple more questions. Am I taking a massive back step if I was to get a really good second hand 26inch?? And the other is I'm starting to like the sound of building my own bike but where do I start. I'm here on holiday at the moment and move here in December so seeing the weather won't be the best it could be a good chance to build 1.

Finally mountain biking is an all year round sport, winter rides are great !

Thanks for all the awesome feed back. I'm probably more lost than ever now hahaha.

just about sums this kind of thread up 😀
😀

@Euro Funnily enough it was AE that really had me wishing for a full suss bike. Mabie was ok, although I did have a read pinch flat coming down descender bender.

The more I read the better bike I want. Couple more questions. Am I taking a massive back step if I was to get a really good second hand 26inch??

It's only natural to want a better bike, but I'd say your current budget is plenty for a first bike myself.

As for the wheel size debate... There's 2 schools of thought on it. Firstly there's those that will say don't buy into an increasingly defunct standard, the time will come at some point when buying any decent spares for 26" bikes will come to an end. The other school of thought is that in the meantime, because so many people are offloading their 26" bikes and kit, the 2nd hand market is saturated, and now Is the time to grab a bargain! If it's going to be your first bike, you're not going to realise the subtle differences for some time until you get more used to riding bikes to be fair. So a 2nd hand 26" bike would make a lot of sense, though if buying new I'd look at 650b or 29er unless you find a nice 26" bike in the sale.

@jambalaya you said you love your cotic bikes so I had a bit of a look. They looked smaller frames than normal is that correct?

Get a hardtail from a bricks and mortar shop. You'll get more for your money vs a FS, probab ly better geometry too, plus, if it's a good bike shop, they'll ensure the bike is set up right for you, you can have a 6k+ super machine, but if it's set up wrong, it's no good. Little things like having the brake levers at the right angle and reach adjusted correctly, correct saddle angle are far more important than having rear suspension.

I'll bring out the learning technique and learning argument. You're learning, you're working stuff out, on a hardtail, you make a small move, you sense what is happening, can act accordingly, a FS muddies the waters, for a while, you'll ride it like utter tosh and not realise it, wheres a hardtail will soon let you know. Then learning really basic, incredibly useful things like turning, hopping and pumping, a hardtail will help that out.

Remember too with a fs it's more complicated to set up and maintain, really, really easy to get wrong.

Then you want to service your fs too to keep everything working as it should, accounted for that cost? The better, more expensive and more complicated stuff gets, the more maintenance it requires to maintain these small performance gains, if you dont intent on maintaining things and setting them up properly, you wont have these gains, therefore makes it pointless having them in the first place.

@shaun - well I seem to be a medium (18) in most bikes 5'10 shortish legs though 😳 The best way is try a ride a few, when I got my first bike (a ht btw) I was torn between 17 and 19 and went for 17 having only sat on it in the shop (in London) but it was a mistake I think.

Cotic (like many manufactuers) are pretty helpful so if you email them your height etc they will make a suggestion, harder on older bikes but a second hand seller can tell you how tall they are. People can have personal references, some particularly liking shorter frames and you can adjust things a little with the type or bars, seat position even a "layback post". As you've seen from this thread it's a whole can of worms you've opened, that's one reason we can all spend some much time here debating stuff 8)

[tin hat on]
I am sure I'll get massively flamed (probably justifiably) but those Cotics are a whole lot cooler than a Boardman 29er
[tin hat off]

Apologies if this has been said already.

Be aware of the higher maintenance/servicing/mending costs of fsussers. You've double the expensive shock components, plus all the extra frame bearings.

I really wanna thank everyone it's been great reading every thing. I have cut out a fs bike so going to go a hard tail. As you guys said for the1200 I have to spend I can really get a nice second hand hard tail. Looks like I'll have to go for a 26inch but the overall bike will be worth it I think. Anyone else like the cotic bikes? Is steel frame better that aluminium?
Cheers

My local bike shop has a new Solaris build on display for £1500. Little bit over your budget but it did look a cracking bike.

My local bike shop has a new Solaris build on display for £1500. Little bit over your budget but it did look a cracking bike.

Sorry for the hijack. Where abouts is this shop and what fork / components on the Solaris if you don't mind me asking?

This (as posted by DezB)

http://paulscycles.co.uk/m1b0s1p4945/GIANT-ANTHEM-X-2-2013

The thing is, that Anthem won't be as good going downhills as a hardcore hardtail with better forks, better geo, wider bars and a shorter stem. And a similar spec gravity oriented bike will weigh about 33-35lbs.

I really wanna thank everyone it's been great reading every thing. I have cut out a fs bike so going to go a hard tail. As you guys said for the1200 I have to spend I can really get a nice second hand hard tail. Looks like I'll have to go for a 26inch but the overall bike will be worth it I think. Anyone else like the cotic bikes? Is steel frame better that aluminium?

Just get an On One 45650b, Mondraker, Zen X or a NP Scout brand new. Lighten them up later.

funkmasterp - Member

 My local bike shop has a new Solaris build on display for £1500. Little bit over your budget but it did look a cracking bike.Sorry for the hijack. Where abouts is this shop and what fork / components on the Solaris if you don't mind me asking?

Oh yeah. I should have put the shop name. I think it had X-Fusion Slide Forks and 1x10 shimano drive train. It was Duck Egg too.

http://www.bachebrotherscycles.co.uk/

Anyone else like the cotic bikes? Is steel frame better that aluminium?

On Steel vs Alu, the steel bikes have a bit more suppleness which makes them great to ride. The Alu bikes are often lighter but more rigid feeling.

On Steel vs Alu, the steel bikes have a bit more suppleness which makes them great to ride. The Alu bikes are often lighter but more rigid feeling.

This is mostly a placebo effect, 99 percent of the damping is done in the rear tyre. Most differences in ride quality come down to chainstay length, the shorter the chainstay is the more flickable the bike is but the further you are over the rear tyre. Meaning you get knocked around more than you would if you're placed more centrally in the bike by having longer chainstays.

You mean steel frames don't have magic pixie dust in them that makes them supple and springy? What, not even my 853 frame? 😕

Dammit! 🙂

(I have three steel mtb frames, including the 853 one mentioned above. IMO none of them are particularly inherently springy)

As my good friend would say I have drunk the kool-aid on steel 😉

It's certainly a lot better ride than my ALU Specialised ever was.

Well, if you will ride a Spesh... 😉

This is mostly a placebo effect, 99 percent of the damping is done in the rear tyre. Most differences in ride quality come down to chainstay length, the shorter the chainstay is the more flickable the bike is but the further you are over the rear tyre. Meaning you get knocked around more than you would if you're placed more centrally in the bike by having longer chainstays.

That's absolutely true about the chainstays. However there is a difference in the high frequency behaviour with a more compliant frame design (not necessarily steel) - I was sceptical of it when I bought a Cotic Soul (which I wanted for the geometry, strength and weight - I'd have considered an aluminium frame if there'd been any comparable ones at the time). But it's definitely less buzzy that my previous alu XC hardtail (with the same length chainstays), it feels if anything like the tyres are a few psi lower.

I really like hardtails and if I was on a relatively tight budget I'd get one rather than a full-sus - especially if riding gnarlier trails as you can then spend more of the budget on a good fork, some tough wheels, good tyres and a dropper post. All those matter more than having some mediocre rear suspension.

You can just get rid of high frequency buzz with carbon railed seats and carbon bars.

Steels not going to iron out chatter or anything like that as some people seem to think and I think it's really debatable still whether frame material alters felt buzz significantly. Like all these things, some people notice certain attributes more than others though.

I really like hardtails and if I was on a relatively tight budget I'd get one rather than a full-sus - especially if riding gnarlier trails as you can then spend more of the budget on a good fork, some tough wheels, good tyres and a dropper post. All those matter more than having some mediocre rear suspension.

+1, I sold my Mega a while back and have had to buy a hardtail frame recently due to budget constraints, I'm going to build it with parts that can be swapped to a 150mm full suss frame but I will most likely just end up with two bikes as hardtails are lots of fun. Everyone should own at least one hardtail as well as a full susser, if they can afford it.

You can just get rid of high frequency buzz with carbon railed seats and carbon bars.

Not through your feet you can't! And if you think small carbon bits make a difference why wouldn't a load of long bits of steel, that are being far more heavily loaded, do the same?

Not through your feet you can't! And if you think small carbon bits make a difference why wouldn't a load of long bits of steel, that are being far more heavily loaded, do the same?

I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you can't feel it and the effect is negligible in comparison to the job the tires do.

You can get carbon cranks as well.

I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you can't feel it and the effect is negligible in comparison to the job the tires do.

Carbon cranks are made to be stiff so they'd actually damp vibrations less than most aluminium cranks. It's very nice of you to tell me what I can and can't feel but you just come across as someone who's rather immature and not quite as clever as he thinks he is. Not a judgement based solely on these posts, I just suffer from remembering far too much of what I read on here. Sorry.

Carbon cranks are made to be stiff so they'd actually damp vibrations less than most aluminium cranks. It's very nice of you to tell me what I can and can't feel but you just come across as someone who's rather immature and not quite as clever as he thinks he is. Not a judgement based solely on these posts, I just suffer from remembering far too much of what I read on here. Sorry.

That's fair enough, I just can't feel the difference myself - I think these things are subjective and it seems Sheldon Brown would have agreed with me.

Carbons vibration damping doesn't come from flex or stiffness though, it comes from the density of the material I believe. So carbon cranks will dampen vibration, just not large impacts.

Again

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

If we are talking about largish bumps as opposed to vibration.

Much of the commonplace B.S. that is talked about different frame materials relates to imagined differences in vertical stiffness. It will be said that one frame has a comfy ride and absorbs road shocks, while another is alleged to be harsh and make you feel every crack in the pavement. Virtually all of these "differences" are either the imaginary result of the placebo effect, or are caused by something other than the frame material choice.

Bumps are transmitted from the rear tire patch, through the tire, the wheel, the seatstays, the seatpost, the saddle frame, and the saddle top. All these parts deflect to a greater or lesser extent when you hit a bump, but not to an equal extent.

The greatest degree of flex is in the tire; probably the second greatest is the saddle itself. If you have a lot of seatpost sticking out of a small frame, there's noticeable flex in the seatpost. The shock-absorbing qualities of good-quality wheels are negligible...and now we get to the seat stays. The seat stays (the only part of this system that is actually part of the frame) are loaded in pure, in-line compression. In this direction, they are so stiff, even the lightest and thinnest ones, that they can contribute nothing worth mentioning to shock absorbency.

by now I would imagine OP has taken up golf

& as for frame materials, I have both a Canfield Yelli Screamy (alloy) and a Nimble 9 (4130 steel). They have the same geometry and nearly the same builds, there is a huge difference in the rides. The N9 is like having 15mm of rear sus compared to the Yelli.

The Nimble Nine has longer stays in one setting and a steep seat tube angle putting you further in front of the back wheel.

[img] [/img]

😈

Apologies for being excessively narky in my previous post (mods, feel free to edit). A key part of my job requires a good understanding of resonant systems. For a component to damp vibrations requires it to move in some way, usually flexure in non-suspended bike bits. Anything that that flexes will have resonant frequencies and Q factor related to them: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor

Carbon parts can use the resin and fibre matrix in such a way as to reduce Q. You can't really change Q with metals, they just are how they are but the stiffness to mass ratio will change the resonant frequency. With bike parts their very high stiffness and relatively low mass pushes the resonant frequencies up out of the bandwidth which can be excited by riding over the rough so they don't tend to continue resonating (ringing), which means the flex tends to self-damp relatively quickly (or does the energy tend to shift upwards in frequency?)

Apologies for being excessively narky in my previous post (mods, feel free to edit). A key part of my job requires a good understanding of resonant systems. For a component to damp vibrations requires it to move in some way, usually flexure in non-suspended bike bits. Anything that that flexes will have resonant frequencies and Q factor related to them: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_factor

I'm not an engineer. I've just been told that stiff carbon can still dampen high frequency vibrations better than any metal due to the material itself not transmitting them as effectively, whilst of course a flexier frames is going to reduce the feel of large impacts.

I'm surprised an engineer hasn't weighed in yet.

hard tail for me

I'm not an engineer. I've just been told that stiff carbon can still dampen high frequency vibrations better than any metal due to the material itself not transmitting them as effectively, whilst of course a flexier frames is going to reduce the feel of large impacts.

It's complicated! But regardless, a truly rigid component cannot damp vibrations.

Do you know how this works then?

Or is it BS?

By adding mass (lowering the resonant frequency) and increasing self damping (thus reducing Q). With a loudspeaker adding cone mass and increasing resistive losses in the suspension would be equivalent. In a ported enclosure you could do the same to the port's own resonant system by increasing the port length (thus increasing the mass of air within) and adding a some layers of highly porous fibrous material over it (thus increasing the resistive port losses). Or with a suspension bridge you could hang a heavy weight off the middle of it and add huge dampers where it connects with solid ground. Etc etc.

So do carbon parts only damp vibrations better when they are flexier then?

One can achieve flexiness with aluminium frames as well, so I really can't see the argument for steel being a better vibration damper holding true.