[Closed] Hard tail choice....opinions please

New Orange P7 defo worth a look. Few folk on here should have taken delivery of theirs by now. Just got mine and it feels mint razzing around the block (not had chance to hammer it yet).

I have a Bird Zero TR and I really like it. Long low and slack. Seems to be of good quality and I like the wide tyre clearance. The frame suited what I was looking for. The guys at Bird are great when you phone them up too.
Never tried the 456 so I can't compare.

The geometry chart for the 45650b is incomplete (no BB drop/height) but from what's there the Zero AM is better due to the longer reach and steeper seat angle. Bird's customer service is excellent and the full builds and options are very well thought out. The frame will be quite a lot lighter too. I may be biased but my Zero AM is excellent.

New Orange p7 or crush.
Steel or Alu
I have the 2015 crush and it's mental. Really fun bike to chuck around, not a bad climber to given its a long travel HT.
The 2016 crush is meant to be even better.
Seen the p7 in my lbs and that looks very nice indeed

Whyte 905 - 2017?

I also have a Bird Zero TR and I love it, it's nearly as much fun to ride as my Whyte T-130 Works!

Having recently been a pain in the arsh of the guys at Bird while purchasing a frame, I can honestly say they're very nice gentlemen. 🙂

Not ridden a Zero, but my one ride since owning a new Aeris was a lorra lorra fun.

If you're set on the direct sales model then the Bird guys should be able to hook you up with a ride if you're in the Swinley area (or around a UK enduro race) which is obviously worth its weight in gold. Otherwise have you considered those put together by our friends over the channel, such as Commencal, Canyon and Rose?

I was very tempted by the Bird but got sidetracked by a nice Ragley Marley 🙂

The geometry chart for the 45650b is incomplete (no BB drop/height) but from what's there the Zero AM is better due to the longer reach and steeper seat angle

Maybe true (I CBA to check), however moar-long/low/slack/steep is not always better. Not everyone wants a 64deg HA, 11"BB, 75deg SA, 500mm reach with 400mm chainstay and a 30mm stem enduro gnarpoon. Because despite them being brilliant if all you do is ride them up really steep hills, then down really fast trails, they can actually be pretty crap at just riding from A to B. If you do want one then they're great, if all you want/need is a more neutral trail bike (which won't really hold you back) then there may be better options.

Geometry is a sum of a lot of things, taking each part in isolation and believing that an extreme of it is better won't make a good bike. And not all sums have the same answer, some people like a more involving ride, others only ride smooth trail centres or rough natural trails, and a bike that works at Glentress (smooth trails, typically all up or down) might not work as Swinley (a rooty eroded challenge in places and often involving working the bike through flat sections).

Taking the Bird as an example, it's not actually that slack, compared to say a Last FF.

There was something being discussed on here the other day which had a 500mm reach, and I think that was a medium, with similarly extreme numbers elsewhere in the geometry. You have to ask, is that actually going to be rideable on a flat-ish trail?

[url= https://www.alpkit.com/sonder/bikes/sonder-transmitter-gx1-1x11 ]Sonder Transmitter [/url] it's what I bought when I had the same dilemma. Makes me smile every time I ride it and the grip is immense.

they can actually be pretty crap at just riding from A to B

TBF I once rode a Kona Explosif in it's natural element of twisty single-track, and it was the least involving bike I've ever ridden.

I had a Shan, and it was both pretty slack and was pretty easy to hustle along. As you say geometry is the sum of a lot of things, and having ridden a fairly slack HT and now a pretty slack FS, the geometry choices being made by designers these days make a lot of sense, and are turning out pretty capable bikes

Not everyone wants a 64deg HA, 11"BB, 75deg SA, 500mm reach with 400mm chainstay and a 30mm stem enduro gnarpoon. Because despite them being brilliant if all you do is ride them up really steep hills, then down really fast trails, they can actually be pretty crap at just riding from A to B. If you do want one then they're great, if all you want/need is a more neutral trail bike (which won't really hold you back) then there may be better options.

Geometry is a sum of a lot of things, taking each part in isolation and believing that an extreme of it is better won't make a good bike. And not all sums have the same answer, some people like a more involving ride, others only ride smooth trail centres or rough natural trails, and a bike that works at Glentress (smooth trails, typically all up or down) might not work as Swinley (a rooty eroded challenge in places and often involving working the bike through flat sections).

Some wise words.

Having recently delved further into the murky world of geometry I agree with this. Also consider the material - it does make a difference, even if that difference is relatively minor.

And, as ever, riding is the crux.

Also (and excuse if it's already been asked or posted) what do you want it for? Second bike? First bike? Bill Scottish hills? Flat East Anglian singletrack? While any one bike will work in both, what do you actually want it to excel at? This should affect your train of thought.

To put it another way, if you lived and worked on a farm, would you buy a BMW M3 as a working vehicle, or get one for Sunday best and use the Landy for day to day use?

the geometry choices being made by designers these days make a lot of sense, and are turning out pretty capable bikes

But equally, most (if not all) the downhill KOM's at Swinley are held by guys riding XC bikes. And I'd be surprised if that's not the case at most trail centres, and probably a lot of natural places too. 'Capable' is almost always going to be just in your head.

I worry that bike companies are trying to do to MTB what board manufacturers did to windsurfing. You get better and better, but more and more specialized boards until you reach a point where they are phenomenally fast, or good in waves but can no longer be sailed upwind or float in flat water. A bit like MTB has ended up with 'winch and plummet' style bikes, bikes focused on downhill speed with only enough concessions to make them bearable uphill.

So you then buy n+1 bikes, and eventually people new to the sport go "hang on a minute, so I don't need a bike, I need a garage full, otherwise I'm stuck with this 'beginners' trail bike?". And bugger off to do something simpler, and kitesurfing is born.

I love my 45650b - complete bike with dropper for less than £1,200 - I don't know if Bird can match that price with a dropper into the bargain(?)

The only downsides I've had so far are shonky bearings in the stock SRAM wheelset - I have never really been a SRAM fan, but needed a complete bike as its predecessor was pilfered by some scumbag.

If the Bird comes with more varied build options this might enter into your decision(?)

thisisnotaspoon - Member
a 64deg HA, 11"BB, 75deg SA, 500mm reach with 400mm chainstay and a 30mm stem enduro gnarpoon

*mild tumescence *

A bit like MTB has ended up with 'winch and plummet' style bikes, bikes focused on downhill speed with only enough concessions to make them bearable uphill.

Yeah for sure, I think some of the more extreme bikes are well into this territory. In lots of ways I think HTs suffer less from this as their designs have to be less extreme, what d'you think?

Just for interest I've gone from a Carbon Yeti to an Airdrop Edit which does 'feel' a load harder on the hills, however checking strava I'm actually only a handful of seconds slower on the Edit.

I wonder how much is in the head of the rider?

I got one of these, okay this....in February, never looked back.Put a dropper on it, changed the SPAM gearing for SHIMANO I had in spares box...LOVE IT! [img] ?oh=f79e70b31ef6263e2ac8cd2effe9599f&oe=57DBABDD[/img]

what about a current version Soul ? Cheaper than some that have been mentioned and sorted geometry/decent spec build as a full bike

Only 450mm reach, 74SA, 40mm stem and 426 chainstay, but it has the 64 HA

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Only 450mm reach, 74SA, 40mm stem and 426 chainstay, but it has the 64 HA

They're still top of my list of bikes to try, I just worry it'll not be much fun on most stuff round here 🙁

Probably the reason I've had so many rigid XC hardtails over the last 8 years or so, I like the feeling of riding them on (or over) the edge of what's sensible, rather than more grnarr bikes that often feel like they should be faster than they are. I'm definitely faster on an enduro bike down hills, and it is more fun, but the 5 minutes climbing, 5 minutes of flat singletrack for 1 minute of descending puts a dampner on it.

Just for interest I've gone from a Carbon Yeti to an Airdrop Edit which does 'feel' a load harder on the hills, however checking strava I'm actually only a handful of seconds slower on the Edit.

Dirt for a while published times for climbs and descents on the bikes they reviewed. I think they stopped after pretty much everything either climbed within a few seconds of each other, or just didn't climb at all. And then downhill, the at the time 'new' Spesh Enduro (the first 150mm travel one) was "within 4 seconds of an intense M3", along with pretty much every other bike they tested.

Which was why I made the comment that a more neutral trail bike wouldn't be any slower downhill, and would be my preference. I'd rather a bike that felt better all round than one that wasn't appreciably faster but only felt good on the descents which on a time basis probably make up less than 10% of riding time.

thisisnotaspoon - Member

They're still top of my list of bikes to try, I just worry it'll not be much fun on most stuff round here

Only had one messed up ride so far, my valve stem snapped when I was fiddling with tyre pressure, ended up sticking a normal-sized tube in the back, which lasted all of about a minute before I ploughed through a rock garden on it. But first impressions are that it's great fun.

Maybe true (I CBA to check), however moar-long/low/slack/steep is not always better. Not everyone wants a 64deg HA, 11"BB, 75deg SA, 500mm reach with 400mm chainstay and a 30mm stem enduro gnarpoon.

I think most would agree that a 71 deg seat angle, especially if you're tall, is a bit annoying uphill compared to a 74 deg SA. And with dropper posts, if you don't like the longer reach of the Bird you can just go down a frame size and gain more clearance. I don't understand the absence of the BB height info on the On-One - it makes such a difference to the feel of a bike, especially a hardtail where you can't vary it with shock sag.

My extrapolated Zero AM is a bit too gnarpooned at times but the standard geometry isn't as slack HA, isn't as steep SA and isn't as low BB, so a bit more sensible for all around riding.

Which was why I made the comment that a more neutral trail bike wouldn't be any slower downhill

hmmmm, where we disagree probably, for the same bikes (yeti and Edit) I've shaved 40 seconds from 3.34 to 2.55 on one descent and from 1.47 to 1.25 on another.

I'll come clean though, I live in a Winch and plummet part of the world... 😆

a look at the Mondraker Vantage might be worth it

I'm the opposite, try as I might I do the same times on the few segemts I care about on my old Pitch, rigid XC bikes and the fatty! I think having ridden some rubbish bikes I've kink of learnt to ride around the faults of absolutely anything!

This seems like as good a time as any to say I went with one of these. No idea what any of the angles are though.
[img][url= https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7765/26921255556_3c18e9a47a_h.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7765/26921255556_3c18e9a47a_h.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/H1Wtmy ]20160510_172927[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/125478603@N02/ ]Joel Nesbitt[/url], on Flickr[/img]

I just got a Commencal CroMo Meta HT, lovely bike

Just to throw another option at you (and recommending what I own) I have a Pace RC127.. It's really good fun, could get an angleset to get it down to be bang on trend but it can do it all really well. Worth a look.

[url= http://enduro-mtb.com/en/pace-rc127-review-british-steel-hardtail/ ]Review.[/url]

I like my 45650b, it's a good all rounder for either a blast in the woods or 40 mile trek.

Get a Cube Nutrail, you're welcome

Cotic are knocking out 27.5 BFe frames for £275, which is great value. May not have as extreme angles as some of the others touted here, but are great handling frames for all types of trails. Mine has been faultless, smile each time I sling a leg over it. I keep toying with an angleset to try it a little lower and slacker, but it's perfectly good enough as is so don't want to potentially spoil it to see if the grass is greener...

Hi jonnnblue

If you are considering buying a frame only and building it yourself I have a brand new, boxed medium 4560b in supa raw
... obviously less than one one

Chromag Wide Angle (650B) or Rootdown/Rootdown BA (29).

I have a Rootdown, bloody amazing bike...

[url= https://c6.staticflickr.com/4/3685/19762772029_15bdb070cf_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://c6.staticflickr.com/4/3685/19762772029_15bdb070cf_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/w7nnAM ]Thursday shred time? Yes, please! #chromagbikes @chromagbikes #mtb[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/danclairelees/ ]Dan and Claire Lees[/url], on Flickr

Liking the angle fascism. Presumably at some point we'll reach a juncture where the front wheel is kicked out so far ahead that bikes will steer like miniature oil tankers and traditional switchbacks will become unrideable without some sort of hinged top tube. Still, at least they'll be no nose-diving, face plants off drop offs because the downtube'll simply ground out on the lip about half an hour after the front wheel lands... 🙂

Ugh there are some tasty hardtails in this thread . After a DH bike , fat bike and a road bike a new one is on the list. Sigh

Me and Mrs Fruitbat have jumped on the Soul bandwagon
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Check this new chap from Meridas

http://www.mbr.co.uk/news/bike_news/meridas-new-big-trail-plus-bike-342601

More constructively than my last comment, like someone above, I'm running a Sonder Transmitter with slack steering and fat 650b+ tyres and absolutely loving it. The 650+ thing is a brilliant mix of grip, cushioning and 'roll over' and something I'd definitely look at if i were in the market for a new hardtail regardless of brand and angles. Just works really well.

Update: now ridden my P7 a few times on Calderdale's trails (well-known routes and cheeky stuff). It's even better than I expected, and I always had high hopes. Big relief as it's the only bike I've ever bought without a test ride first.

I'm currently on holiday in Turkey, though my rootdown has just arrived at work ready to be built up when I get back...

Currently I have everything on a pinnacle ramin frame which, actually, is great as a ht to match the 130mm forks..but fancied something a bit more 'special'..
If you're interested in the ramin grange I'd do it for £90 posted?

DrP

I was a big fan of my steel Switchback. The new ones should be even better now they come with a longer reach (I prefer riding my Mk II Ti in long over the MK I that was stolen).

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If you're going to go slack then go the whole hog

(Warning: Turn volume down all of the way. More if possible)

Don't understand some of the comments here, so to add my opinion...

I have a 45650b. Great frame and will do all you want. However, having just ordered a Bird Aeris and ridden other friends bikes I find the reach too short. Also has a high front end which combined makes it quite an upright bike. Good for some things not others. As I use a hardtail a lot I have decided to switch to a pinnacle Iroko as I picked up a frame very cheaply. Has around 2inches (from memory) additional reach, which at 6.3 will make it far nicer to ride up hill flat or down.

I appreciate slacker isn't always better (particularly on hardtails) but a bit of extra reach is good in my opinion. The 45650b isn't as long as my 1989 Saracen Tufftrax, albeit that has a 130mm stem!

Whyte 905 or any in that range as the frame is the same. Great geometry and it really shows when you ride it. The Bird looks great but I have not dared go up there for fear of another n+1 discussion with the Mrs! I love the Cotic stuff as well and they are also jolly nice chaps. The on -one stuff is fine but sizing seems off - I am 6'2" and feel they are a bit short so defo size up if you go that way.

plyphon - Member
Check this new chap from Meridas

Eurgh - looks like a HT that wishes it was a FS