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No punches spared on this particular outing.
I love the fact that he calls out bad QC/QA, but it's clear he's not familiar with mountain bike bottom brackets.
I wouldn't pull my punches on him that's for sure.
but it’s clear he’s not familiar with mountain bike bottom brackets.
Please tell me he moans about the [s] iscg tabs [/s] clamping points not having been removed after it was machined.
One of many reasons to have the plate with ISCG mounts recessed from the BB face, and then use spacers on the bolts for the chainguide/bashplate whatever...
Hold on... might not be clear on that Ti frame... here's a painted steel one that should make it easier to see...
I've little desire to watch the potty mouthed one but I'm intrigued kelvin what's benefit sitting the plate behind the bb surface that the spacer behind the DS cup doesn't serve?
The video shows you why quite early on (but only after lots of pointless swearing, of course).
Basically, you need to be able to face BB shells, which you can't easily do when the ISCG mount plate is trying to be flush with the end of the BB shell. Made even worse with Titanium.
Ah, fair do, that makes sense.
He comes across as very unprofessional, which tends to undermine his assessment, regardless of whether they are correct or not.
All that hyperbole is ridiculous. It doesn't help that he appears to base his assessments on very small sample sets, in this case 1, when roasting a product or manufacturer.
I love the fact that he calls out bad QC/QA, but it’s clear he’s not familiar with mountain bike bottom brackets.
Engineering is Engineering and is product agnostic. Irrelevant if it's a road bike, mountain bike or not a bike at all.
He had the same issue with the Open Up frame. It had a dropped drive side chain stay to create tyre clearance but resulted in a really strange shaped and contoured chaninstay around the BB area. Hambini had no idea why it was designed like that but highlighted that in that area there were loads of voids and defects in the carbon lay up due to the extreme shape in that area pushing the limits of the carbon lay up process. Just plain and simple poor design.
He's an acquired taste and who knows if he's just picking up on the odd Friday afternoon / Monday morning frame, but he's certainly showing up alot of the big premium bike brands for a bunch of amateur chumps. Just goes to show just because you're paying a premium for a premium brand you're not getting premium engineering, design or manufacturing quality.
Luesher Teknic is good for similar insight if you like things a bit less sweary.
He comes across as very unprofessional, which tends to undermine his assessment, regardless of whether they are correct or not.
All that hyperbole is ridiculous. It doesn’t help that he appears to base his assessments on very small sample sets, in this case 1, when roasting a product or manufacturer.
Agreed, I can only watch a few minutes without wanting to switch him off... only watched a few minutes of this one, because I saw the Kingdom, and they tend to be well thought out and built, so was intrigued...
He's a tosser.
Did he...did he say that whoever fabricated the BB needed a dose of Cyclon/Zyklon? @22 mins
Wouldn't be the first time. He thinks (or, says) anyone who worked on GXP should kill themselves, and told his audience as such...
Not watching the vid/giving him the click. What he sees as catastrophic failures are, in the vast majority of cases, good enough for the intended use within a budget.
One of many reasons to have the plate with ISCG mounts recessed from the BB face
I'd say well done Cotic BUT the standard actually shows the mount is 2.5mm inboard from the BB face ISCG 05 and also describes it "Variable tab setback amount - preferred to be in 2.5mm increments"
Basically, you need to be able to face BB shells, which you can’t easily do when the ISCG mount plate is trying to be flush with the end of the BB shell. Made even worse with Titanium.
Except is it really that big a deal?
When external BB's first appeared we all ran down to our LBS to pay £20 to get the BB faced as the internet and MBUK told us we had to. I think I had my first frame faced, then after that never bothered, and never noticed any difference in BB longevity. Winter kills them with grit and water through the seals in a few hundred hours, not the minutiae of alignment tolerances that make the difference to a bearing in your car's engine that's expected to last 10,000 hours.
but he’s certainly showing up alot of the big premium bike brands for a bunch of amateur chumps
Nope, he's just applying un-necessarily high standards in most instances.
What he sees as catastrophic failures are, in the vast majority of cases, good enough for the intended use within a budget.
...exactly.
If every brand starts making 'Hambini-approved' products with NASA standard engineering and QA, do you think the manufacturers will just suck up the hit to their profit margin? Nope, we'll just pay more for it.
Of course, you could argue that we're already paying too much for most products but I choose to believe that no-one is getting rich in the industry...
That man needs an editor.
If your frame comes and its not faced or at least bare (in the case of carbon you should have a clean shell free from resin blobs etc.) then you should just send it back. Plain and simple. If you need to face it again during the time you own it then you need to question your BB choices...
Bike manufacturing (at least for above BSO level) has moved well beyond the days of when everything needed re-finishing when you get it.
Wouldn’t be the first time. He thinks (or, says) anyone who worked on GXP should kill themselves, and told his audience as such…
Well I'm all for torturing them 1st ...
What he sees as catastrophic failures are, in the vast majority of cases, good enough for the intended use within a budget.
Obviously excepting GXP
I'm not saying that we, as riders, need to face BB shells, or that we should be having to get the LBS to do so... just that it has to be possible to do so... by whoever preps the frame initially.
I'm still using GXP BBs, with no bad stories to tell.
To be fair most of the stuff he gets upset about is sold & priced as high end. We’re talking a £1300 ti ht frame here. If it was a £99 on-one frame then fair enough.
He’s got quite a unique style but you must have to be a bit random to want to get on YT and make long videos about bike frames that are clearly not profit making. Especially when opening yourself up for legals. I find a lot of value within the randomness. He’d be great to have at the table for a post ride beer 😂
I’m still using GXP BBs, with no bad stories to tell.
So are (tens of?) thousands of others globally.
We’re talking a £1300 ti ht frame here.
Exactly. he's applying the standards of multimillion pound aero products. To a bicycle frame. yes its expensive for a bike frame, but within his scope, its nothing
Like when a 3 michelin star chef labels your local gastropubs food as 'inedible' and that chef should kill himself for not chopping the carrots to an exact size.
He’d be great to have at the table for a post ride beer 😂
For about 3 seconds until he got you all given a right kicking for being a gobby wee shite.
What he sees as catastrophic failures are, in the vast majority of cases, good enough for the intended use within a budget.
Bullshit. They weren't good enough for the intended use which is why their owners sent them to him to investigate and fix, presumably at some cost.
good enough for the intended use within a budget.
The only problem with that is most of the brands he highlights aren’t budget brands or products. As far as I can see he is only holding them to the tolerances the frame manufacturers (or in the case of bottom brackets the component manufacturers) state which shouldn’t be too high a target.
Its a shame the swearing & misogamy are a huge barrier to issues we should be complaining about
Bike frame at £1k+ shouldn’t be shredding bottom brackets or have issues when pedalling. £3k carbon road frames shouldn’t have voids and bb issues.
Wouldn’t quite call it aerospace grade.
Bullshit. They weren’t good enough for the intended use which is why their owners sent them to him to investigate and fix, presumably at some cost.
In the vast majority of cases
aren’t budget brands or products.
No, but they aren't money no object either, there's a limit to what they can do within what they have to spend/can sell for
So you'd spend 1300 quid on a frame and console yourself with the hope that everyone else's is working fine and suck it up when they tell you it is within tolerance? Don't think so.
That what Quality Control is for.
They weren’t good enough for the intended use which is why their owners sent them to him to investigate and fix,
No people sent them because he's a sweary bully and they like watching him be a sweary bully on YouTube. They're the same people who liked to watch the class geek get beaten up at school.
If they wanted it fixed they'd have had much cheaper and greater success with the manufacturers or someone local who didn't run a you tube channel that makes trump look coherent and restrained.
Regardless of how he says it, making / selling frames when the BB shell isn't square is making rubbish. Machining and cutting the thread on a BB shell is a simple lathe job and there's no excuse - it's not just QA/QC it's just crap manufacturing - no matter how many times you look at it doesn't go away - it's still a pile of poo. First off, the frame manufacturer made a pile of rubbish BB shells and even worse made from with them. The fact that Kingdom let it go out the door in that condition just compounds the problem.
That what Quality Control is for.
Yep. And it's expensive. How much more would that frame cost if they guarantee'd every one would be perfect, to minute tolerances. Would they be able to sell it?
Sucks if you are the one that falls though the cracks, but proclaiming the whole production run is dogshit because an angry little man on the internet found the bad one is a bit silly
Exactly. he’s applying the standards of multimillion pound aero products. To a bicycle frame. yes its expensive for a bike frame, but within his scope, its nothing
I've got a freeby steel pen in front of me right now. Might have cost some company a couple of quid at most yet the round bits are actually round and fit together.
So you’d spend 1300 quid on a frame and console yourself with the hope that everyone else’s is working fine and suck it up when they tell you it is within tolerance? Don’t think so.
That what Quality Control is for.
You realise that is exactly what QC is for? If tolerances were +-100mm +99mm is in tolerance, it might not work but its in tolerance so it's a QC pass.
Or are you saying that the tolerances are wrong? which is not what QC is for.
The issue on this frame is exacerbated by the use of a Cane Creek chainset and the bearings. I'm guessing a normal shimano bottom bracket wouldn't be so adversely affected. Having said that the design of the ISCG mounts on this frame is poor. Acceptable if the frame cost a couple of hundred pounds, but not on a premium titanium frame.
Yep. And it’s expensive. How much more would that frame cost if they guarantee’d every one would be perfect, to minute tolerances. Would they be able to sell it?
They just need to do it to the tolerances of the BB's they fit.
It doesn't need to cost more, they have a manufacturing/design problem preventing them getting even close to the required tolerances.
Don't be dense. It's the same as case tracking versus population sampling for covid. Both tell you different things and it would be very difficult for an individual to attempt population sampling of bike frame quality, although it would be awesome if someorganisation did it.
It is perfectly valid to take the shit ones that are sold to the general public, show how shit they are and make inferences from that.
In several cases the buyers sought help at length from the retailer and manufacturer and not got a resolution or been told that they met the manufacturer's tolerances.
I don't expect a frame to be aerospace quality, just to be manufactured to a reasonable standard.
I expect the bad ones that don't meet that standard to be identified by QC.
I expect the bad ones that someone poor punter like me buys to be repaired or replaced through good customer service.
I am glad that when that process doesn't work properly someone points it out.
Not watched the video, but guessing the whole argument is against alignment and lack of proper facing, it's not difficult to do properly, not even with titanium, if you're making dozens or hundreds of frames, then there should be a simple tool provided to do a quick check, doesn't even have to be threaded, but if it is it would double up on checking the threads.
Again, you don't need expensive machines to skim or face, you can do it by hand with simple stones/papers/etc.
I find him entertaining and sense talking. Whilst his language is clearly gratuitous for to he sake of it, he actually puts me in mind of what this forum used to be like years ago as a full blooded free exchange of ideas and opinions, rather than the anaemic, censored echo chamber its becoming.
Off the check my new Vendetta now!😳
exchange of ideas and opinions
We’ve just had a good page of that.
The issue on this frame is exacerbated by the use of a Cane Creek chainset and the bearings. I’m guessing a normal shimano bottom bracket wouldn’t be so adversely affected. Having said that the design of the ISCG mounts on this frame is poor. Acceptable if the frame cost a couple of hundred pounds, but not on a premium titanium frame.
Indeed, he states that a standard Shimano BB would probably be ok in the video.
Given his reputation he gave the Cane Creek BB a very easy ride IMO.
His language is ridiculously juvenile though, it is surely possible to be more creatively dismissive of crappy design and execution.
That man needs an editor.
Ctrl+A
Delete
Not watched the video, but guessing the whole argument is against alignment and lack of proper facing, it’s not difficult to do properly, not even with titanium, if you’re making dozens or hundreds of frames, then there should be a simple tool provided to do a quick check, doesn’t even have to be threaded, but if it is it would double up on checking the threads.
The main issue is that their manufacturing process / design prevents remedying this after welding.
Sure you can check it but obviously since they can't then do anything about it they probably don't bother?
Again, you don’t need expensive machines to skim or face, you can do it by hand with simple stones/papers/etc.
Assuming you didn't weld a plate over the top... ^^^
So many things you could pick up on. Never mind its a second hand frame and there's nothing wrong with the ewings bearings design. Or the fact he didn't actually machine it properly.
The guy speaks shit to sell his products. That's it.
So many things to pick on?
Please explain how being second hand is relevant to the design flaw of leaving the BB face flush with the iscg mounts, which is very well explained by earlier posters on page 1.
He also explains why it is quite tough to machine a completed bike frame. Not sure why he didn't just machine the whole face of the plate flat though. Maybe you'd like to explain how you'd have done it.
He also quite reasonably explains how the 30mm axle in a standard shell leads to a compromise on either the bearing size or the cup walls. Didn't seem like he slams them for it.
Elsewhere on the forum right now is a thread about a new frame that arrived with chipped paint at the dropout (something that would probably happen the first time the wheel is fitted). That thread has received generally supportive feedback and hand wringing that it should have arrived in such a condition.
Yet here is a frame that has been badly designed (the ISG tabs are too close to the face of the bb shell to allow for proper facing post-welding), badly manufactured (said ISG mount is not parallel to the bb shell face) and difficult to rectify once made. And this thread has been met with outrage that the manufacturer is being somehow unfairly held to aerospace standards of engineering. Really?
Cost is not an issue here. Good design costs nothing. And at any price a parallel faced bb shell (or at least the ability to face it yourself) is not a big ask.
The thin walls of the 30mm internal BB do make the problem worse, but if the bb shell wasn’t so poorly finished it wouldn’t be an issue. The fault lies with the frame, not the bb.
Hambini is an engineer and clearly doesn’t know (or profess to know) so much about bicycles. What he does know is road biased. He is quite open about that. His delivery is deliberately unrefined and childish. He’s a shock-jock. He gets people talking. That’s the point. If you check out the videos he did a while back on GCN, he clearly knows his stuff when it’s delivered in an adult way. But let’s not let that detract from the fact that this particular frame falls short of basic manufacturing and design standards.
He's definitely an acquired taste. I think part of the reason he takes issue with Kingdom, Open, Cervelo etc is that they present the image that you ARE buying something made with a high level of engineering skill and knowledge behind it when the reality is that they are passing it off to the cheapest possible manufacturer then whacking a massive profit margin on top for themselves. As for QC, I imagine that they rely on the manufacturer doing it and throw them out the door when they land here.
but he’s certainly showing up alot of the big premium bike brands for a bunch of amateur chumps
Nope, he’s just applying un-necessarily high standards in most instances.
What he sees as catastrophic failures are, in the vast majority of cases, good enough for the intended use within a budget.
…exactly.
Really? Good enough for a £2000+ premium frame which feature in most of his video's? Is that what you'd expect and accept? So how many hours would it take if you were to trawl through the millions of lines of STW threads on bearing issues, cracked frames, warranty issues (the fact people see warranty as a bonus and selling point is telling right there). No. Wrong. Not impossibly high and unnecessary standards, just the expectation of the application of THE most basic of engineering design and manufacturing principles when you're spending upto £3500 on a plastic frame or upto £2k fancy pants metal one. Hambini has exposed that the £3500 frames have all the same basic school boy error problems than a sub £100 supermarket bike frame has. We're being ripped off by these manufacturers.
This is the problem when keen cyclists start messing about with engineering. Fine if you're a qualified and experienced engineer like Cy from Cotic is, but there is more to engineering a bike than welding a few tubes together, or laying a few CF prepreg sheets together in the shape of a bike frame.
So many things you could pick up on. Never mind its a second hand frame and there’s nothing wrong with the ewings bearings design. Or the fact he didn’t actually machine it properly.
The guy speaks shit to sell his products. That’s it.
No Alex is right. No issue with the crank and that wasn't the claim made by Hambini (did you actually watch the video??) and he says you will have 'got away with it' if you had a smaller diameter crank like a Shimano crank, that would have accommodated a stiffer BB shell. But it would just be covering up the root cause which is a crap design and crap manufacturing of the BB shell. Hambini is not speaking shit...he's exposing the scandal of the industry and he sees the same issue with all the big brands.
He is selling his products...that he has engineered to solve the problems the big manufacturers are building into their frames through shoddy engineering. It's a market created by the bike brands by their shoddy products that Hambini is exploiting. What would you do if you'd spent £3500 on a fancy pants carbon frame that requires 50w of power to turn the crank in fresh air due to a miss aligned BB shell due to shoddy manufacturing that eats bearing every 3 months. What would you do once you've been fobbed off by their warranty department and you're left with the frame and a couple of bearing that have been turned to dust? Chuck the frame or buy a Hambini BB that addresses the issue and gets you out and about with a properly performing BB and crank (other similar BB's are available of course so he's not the only person on this issue).
Hambini is a bit of a Pratt no doubt, but look beyond the crass exterior to what he's actually saying and he's bang on. I know it's very unlike STW to look beyond the person to the meat and veg of what's being said - the pitch forks have already been sharpened and thrust long before anybody actually listens to what's being said being the usual STW approach...but if you can bring yourself to actually listen and comprehend what he's saying you'll learn something from him. You wont like him any more, but you'll be better informed.
I've never watched this chap before.
I dislike his presentation style and potty mouth. For that I won't watch again.
He did however seem to make a few valid points. IANAE.
I agree with some of his points.
the point i was making with it being second hand is you dont know how many times that isg tab has been smacked and possibly bent or the bb shell dragged across rocks etc etc.
The point about the bb was that he had to machine a spacer for it and that CC had made it difficult for people to replace the bearings. No they havent. Its just sounding like they are trying to pull a fast one.
Id stick it on an adjustable table I agree its difficult to fix.
At the end of the day most frames are fabricated in some way or have a potential for error due to the way they are produced. These errors are actually quite large.
Im not saying we should accept crap and its good that someone is able to ague the side of the customer but i do think its over the top and unrealistic in many circumstances.
Once upon a time i bought an Ibis frame. After 3 years the headset cups broke away from the frame itself. The clearnce hole was double the tolerance it should have been. Thats why it failed.
2 pure offered go bond the old cups back in. I declined, made my own cups at work that adressed the route cause of failure and had them bonded back in by a professional.
High end frame QC is shit. Hambini is highlighting this and rightly so. If youre spending 3k on a frame you want the design spec to be at least in the ballpark.
I watched one of his vids where he had a carbon road frame with a push fit bb that 0.1 out of tolerance. Thats just awful. Id be fuming if i bought that.
These aren't ridiculous tolerances.. theyre bog standard. There's wriggle room but thats taking the piss out of the customer imo.
Hambini fan or not For someone working out of his garage in his spare time, he has fixed some rather shonky frames with well engineered solutions. And by shonky they are millimeters out not microns/thou out.
that is true.
though saying that, he's a classic example of survivor/selection bias with QC in the bike industry.
I watched one of his vids where he had a carbon road frame with a push fit bb that 0.1 out of tolerance. Thats just awful. Id be fuming if i bought that.
Genuine question, 0.1mm out of tolerance or 0.1mm from the stated size. A pf92 bb is +0.1mm - 0.0mm tolerances so entirely possible that 0.1mm was acceptable. But I digress.
No issue with the crank and that wasn’t the claim made by Hambini (did you actually watch the video??) and he says you will have ‘got away with it’ if you had a smaller diameter crank like a Shimano crank, that would have accommodated a stiffer BB shell. But it would just be covering up the root cause which is a crap design and crap manufacturing of the BB shell.
There is the bigger problem, the machining on this particular frame could have been wonky but well within spec, with a normal bb that wouldn't be an issue. The design (and therefore tolerances) of that threaded shell are donkey's years old, it predates external bb and certainly 30mm external bb. Those newer designs don't allow for wide variations in production. They cram more and more into the same space and remove the room for error so a BSA30 bb doesn't actually fit a threaded shell at the upper limits of spec. That's not a problem with the shell that's a BB problem, that's designing product a to work only with good examples of product bb.
Yes the frame might be badly built, it might be absolutely at the widest end of the design spec for the bb, seat tube, shatner's bassoon but if it's in spec and the kit bolted to it doesn't work because it requires a more stringent spec that's not a problem with the frame, it's a problem of incompatible parts, in this case through poor design of the BB not accounting for the acceptable tolerance of the established design its supposed to fit.
Hambini has an acquired taste, he's a lot more restrained than he used to be, its about time someone publicly called out the piss poor level of engineering and manufacturing in the cycling industry.
Nope, he’s just applying un-necessarily high standards in most instances.
Bearings have tolerances in order to work correctly, its not for the end user to choose, its stipulated for them. I've had a few frames where the bearings were being pinched by the frame, causing premature wear.
There are too many "Standards" (Shit ways of doing things) in the cycling industry, how can the 3rd party manufacturers keep up and deploy these effectively? There needs to be a cull of the shit ones, pick the best and go forward, improve on them if needed. Superboost and DUB spring to mind!
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/opinion/bike-industry-mtb-standards/
Once upon a time i bought an Ibis frame. After 3 years the headset cups broke away from the frame itself. The clearnce hole was double the tolerance it should have been. Thats why it failed.
I replaced the bearings on a ibis headset, quite surprised they'd used brass self tappers to hold the headtube badge on, it had made a bit of a mess of the inside of the headtube where they'd punched through. Wonder if they'd put the screws in the FEA model, highly unlikely, they've probably never had a headtube failure, but it looks shonky.
Swearing is rarely pointless. Enjoyed that. What a rubbish frame.
There is the bigger problem, the machining on this particular frame could have been wonky but well within spec, with a normal bb that wouldn’t be an issue. The design (and therefore tolerances) of that threaded shell are donkey’s years old, it predates external bb and certainly 30mm external bb. Those newer designs don’t allow for wide variations in production. They cram more and more into the same space and remove the room for error so a BSA30 bb doesn’t actually fit a threaded shell at the upper limits of spec. That’s not a problem with the shell that’s a BB problem, that’s designing product a to work only with good examples of product bb.
Yes the frame might be badly built, it might be absolutely at the widest end of the design spec for the bb, seat tube, shatner’s bassoon but if it’s in spec and the kit bolted to it doesn’t work because it requires a more stringent spec that’s not a problem with the frame, it’s a problem of incompatible parts, in this case through poor design of the BB not accounting for the acceptable tolerance of the established design its supposed to fit.
No, you've fundamentally misunderstood the issue with this frame. If the bb faces are not parallel to the centreline of the bike and cannot be made parallel with standard bb facing tools you have failed to design and properly construct a bicycle frame at a very basic level.
If you want to design and produce frames that cannot be faced later you need to make sure they leave the factory pretty close to bang on and have sufficient quality control to ensure they all are within acceptable tolerance. It is far better to ensure that the BB face is proud of all obstructions so it can faced later with relatively simple and widely available handtools if required.
But thats half the point. It could well have left the factory "bang on"
I don't see damage in use as a likely cause of this defect. It would take a fairly massive force to bend the BB shell and plate about a mm over a relatively short distance and there's no evidence of any damage to the ISCG tabs or the shell, or indeed to the rest of the bike. You wouldn't just see it on the face.
Of course, if you leave the face proud you could easily rectify that little aspect of the problems you'd when the frame is run over by a truck 🙂
have sufficient quality control to ensure they all are within acceptable tolerance.
According to one of the posts back there Kingdom said it is in acceptable tolerance so it doesn't need post manufacturing machining to get within that.
That's my whole point.
It needs machining not to get within tolerance but in order to work with parts designed for smaller tolerances.
If you want to design and produce frames that cannot be faced later you need to make sure they leave the factory pretty close to bang on
you’ve fundamentally misunderstood the issue with tolerance, they're established, they're part of the design, they're standardised. You don't need to be "pretty much bang on" you need to be within tolerance. If that's (for argument sake) 200mm +10mm and -0.0mm a part at 208mm is "pretty much bang on" a part at 199.9mm is not.
There will be an acceptable range of alignment from 0 degrees for that bb threading, if it's within that range but doesn't work there may be a design issue with the bike* but not a QC issue.
*(I'd be absolutely amazed if that's not specified in the design of the bb)
There needs to be a cull of the shit ones
yeah, good luck with that
A BB shell's faces need to be parallel to about .01mm (= bang on, if you like). That one is at least 1mm out.
First time I've seen any of his vids- might well be the last.....
He makes some good points, the fact that Ti is pain to work with you would have thought that tolerances etc. would be more stringent as rectifying after the fact (like an ali or steel frame) is extremely difficult. The location of those ISG tabs is shocking.
All valid points too about how thin the walls of the thread on the cup had to be, and I'll echo some of the comments above - I don't think he was having a pop at CC (other than the spacer behind the bearing) as they can only work with what we all have as a BB shell.
How many of us actually chase/face a BB shell when we get a new frame?
I've never done it in anger, only time has been on my Cytech Level 2.
He claims to be well respected in Aero and Auto engineering on his website (and also autistic) - wonder how he presents himself in those environments.....
But thats half the point. It could well have left the factory “bang on”
Not bang on but perhaps "in tolerance".
It can't be "bang on " because of the poor process design. You can't weld Ti and it not deform ... just hope it doesn't deform out of tolerance and if it does scrap/recycle or what???
The fact it is out in sphericity, alignment and facing strongly suggests it left the factory that way.
How many of us actually chase/face a BB shell when we get a new frame?
As Ben pointed out we shouldn't have to.
I can't imagine him letting one out that needed facing or then claiming "it's within tolerance"
I think the interesting thing from a lot of his videos has been the relative praise for some less expensive direct from factory frames Hong Fu/Deng Fu I totally get his despair that marketing/Branding are being used to justify poorer quality from what are perceived as higher quality manufacturers.
If your paying sale £3k for a carbon frame I'd say you've got a level of expectation that the QC you're getting is better than one that comes direct from a factory for a fraction of the price.
If you're not paying for quality and only branding/marketing I'd argue something is very wrong.
There was a great article I read a few years ago from I think Chris Cocalis at Pivot who talked about the premium you apparently got with big brands was QC at varying stage of the manufacturing life cycle.
If that isn't happening there's a problem I guess?
I always chase and face, ever since forever.
But I am old and can remember when road frames were steel and chromed and absolutely needed facing.
I don’t see damage in use as a likely cause of this defect. It would take a fairly massive force to bend the BB shell and plate about a mm over a relatively short distance and there’s no evidence of any damage to the ISCG tabs or the shell, or indeed to the rest of the bike. You wouldn’t just see it on the face.
I've knocked a BB out of true after landing on the bashguard (a steel one) on an old hardtail. Thought I'd bent the cranks until the bike shop put a ruler against the seat tube and showed it twisted. No obvious cracks in the paint to show it had bent but it was definitely not right! This was back in the days of square taper BB's and the bashguard being clamped in place by the BB so not as strong as the ISCG mounts, wrote off the frame.
That's why they call them Chain Guide mounts
Bash guards have a habit of knackering frames.
You really shouldn't (need to) face a BB shell. They should be faced post welding or painting (depending on the material/finish) to the specific width +- not a lot, and left as it is. Facing will remove material that is meant to be there - not all cranks play nice with undersized BB shells. It should be obvious whether a BB face is faced or not. It will have a totally different finish (usually raw but could be finished with something else) if its a painted frame, or if unpainted you'd expect an obvious ground/milled area.
Whether you spend £300 or £3000 on a frame this should all be done before you get it - if its not, send it back!
If its a carbon frame then you're subject to a different set of finishes, even for alu shells in carbon, it's not so obvious if its been or even needs refinishing.
I see that the ISCG tab placement has been poorly designed and executed, is he saying that the consequent inability of the drive side BB to be fully inserted is causing premature bearing wear? Made worse by the BB design in this case.
I think I see the problem, but am struggling to see the justificatiion for CNC milling time.
Unless it was noisy, then I'd have to smash it to bits with a hammer
I see that the ISCG tab placement has been poorly designed and executed
Not if you want your ISCG perfectly aligned to your BB its not.
Its all swings and roundabouts.
The design allows you to mill the face of the BB and ISCG all in one, giving you perfect alignment of BB, Chainring and chain guide. If thats done at the factory, you can move on as you're never going to touch it again and so it becomes moot whether you could face it again. Welding them on later set back might mean they're miss aligned, and all its allowing you to do is a job you should never need to do anyway. Machining them as a single unit is nice but costs way more.
Each has its advantages. For every solution there's usually a compromise somewhere else.
I got bored at 12 minutes having listened to his drivel about how hard it is to face the driveside bb and iscg mounts. He is clueless. It is very easy for any basic machine shop. This method works - I've done it.
You clamp a 3 jaw chuck flat to the miller table - Jaws facing up. Pick some Jaws that will go inside the bb shell.
Place frame on it nds down. Clamp bb bore using chuck. So you are directly gripping the bit you want to machine (so it is very rigid). It also holds it nice and flat / perpendicular (directly to the the datum he mentioned). You can then also support the other places he mentioned just to stop them twanging around (but the main clamp and alignment is already done).
Or just use a Shimano UNxx bb and have none of the sealing or alignment issues 🙂
I generally swear a lot and I find his videos excessive as a lot of his language appears to be more Tourette's than contextual.
His points in the this one though are interesting for me as my hardly ridden Ibis Ripmo has a similar issue with the drive side crank feeling like it clunks as it goes over TDC.
All brand new and only with a couple of hundred dry miles on at most. 30mm DUB with a Hope thin walled bottom bracket too, so I'll look at this alignment closely when I can finally undo the bloody crank arm.
DUB isn’t 30mm / it’s about 29mm bar a tiny .01 or something like that. Has the Hope bb got a spacer in it to take up that slack? If not that might be part of your clunk.
Yeh it’s there. Cost £15 iirc for the adaptor. Forgot it was 28.9mm not 30mm
Will be having a closer look next week, maybe even tomorrow if I can get my backside in gear.
The frame is clearly all to cock. But it did sort of amuse me that he installed the BB spacer on the non drive side, and didn't use anti-seize when installing the BB into a Ti frame...
The Shimano spacers are plastic so they deform and 'correct' tolerance issues like this. Granted they probably wouldn't correct this amount of muppetry. A couple of beers, a file and some sandpaper could probably result in a plastic spacer being roughly the right shape to work though.
https://road.cc/content/news/shockjock-vid-seeks-refute-sexism-claim-reinforces-it-272869
He’s a horrible little man and I won’t give him the time of day