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Loads of good points here - a rapid group ride of between 8 and 12 riders where everyone knows what they're doing and nobody's out to prove how AWESOMELY STRONG they are is brilliant.
Lots of physically strong riders who are clearly new to the sport do not relish being given advice by more experienced riders. Maybe it's an age/male/ego/wealth thing, who knows.
When I was that guy, much older guys in the club (who've won more bike races than I'd had hot dinners) pointed out to me in no uncertain terms what half-wheeling and blasting through were and why they weren't okay. Best way to learn.
Years ago, fast group rides were generally made up of active racers or older riders with racing pedigree. In a road race, how you (and everyone else) ride in a small group actually matters, if you're out for any kind of result. Get it wrong there and you'll be enduring a lonely trundle back to the strip.
Might well be anecdata, but I don't think as many guys in a fast chaingang now are actually racing much, so what happens on group rides probably doesn't matter, ergo why's this guy pissed off at me for going through fast? Can't he see how STRONG I am?
Exception to this is groups that are explicitly a smash-fest, where everyone's out to knock it into each other and everyone knows it. But you have to agree that first, you don't just decide that's how it's going to be mid-ride!
But mudguards in winter, why has nobody mentioned that? No mudguards? Get to the back, son.
I also think group riding encourages people to ride like jerks. Twice i have had to take emergancy action to avoid crashing as a chaingang came past. One the tail end rider was so deaparate to hang on they forced me off the track. I also had a mob coming tbe other way using all of a closed road (holyrood on a sunday) and they got shirty when I had to shout at them to leave me room.
Might well be anecdata, but I don’t think as many guys in a fast chaingang now are actually racing much, so what happens on group rides probably doesn’t matter
I think there's a big element of this, I neither race nor have the lifestyle for same-time / same-place club rides every week, so on the rare occasion I do get involved in a group (most recently in a long headwindy drag in a sportive) it was me who cocked it all up, despite trying to do everything 'right' (I was so focused on trying to maintain the pace that everyone else had done on the front that I didn't adjust to the road turning upward, blew group apart then blew up myself and got passed by most of them shortly after in dribs and drabs).
I feel that well drilled groups and chaingangs will become a niche thing in future, training (and life!) seems to be much more of an individual pursuit these days.
(spoken as a 39yr oldfather of a 4 year old, perhaps once he's out of the house I'll be ready to join a regular club ride 🙄)
One the tail end rider was so deaparate to hang on they forced me off the track. I also had a mob coming tbe other way using all of a closed road
See also; Give Way lines, Stop lines and red lights. No, you are not all in the same vehicle and you should each be obeying traffic laws. Someone suggested a maximum of 8 riders. That feels about right for one group.
Love riding in the woods with a couple of good mates, don't love it so much when the group gets bigger. Same on the road really, I enjoy riding with two or three mates, just don't like it at all when the group is bigger.
Used to ride about 20 years ago with the Gosforth road club in Newcastle. Some really nice people in the group, and blessed with very quiet roads for as many miles as you want, but even 20 years ago when the roads were definitely quieter and drivers were more patient, I'd feel very conscious we were getting in other users way riding in a bigger group. I didn't like that at all.
Nobody half wheeled or behaved like a **** back then, but there are a LOT of new roadies now...
I’d feel very conscious we were getting in other users way riding in a bigger group. I didn’t like that at all
You're not holding up traffic, you ARE traffic.
You’re not holding up traffic, you ARE traffic.
Yes, well aware of that but I consider big groups as slow moving traffic holding other people up. Call it subservient if you want, but I don’t like doing it for four hours on a Sunday morning.
Eugh. Roadies. sounds rubbish
Meh. Lots if things suck about riding on the road, but as stated by multiple people above, a well formed group ride mashing along is bloody marvellous. The additional speed is amazing and when the group click and works well then it's brilliant.
No, you are not all in the same vehicle and you should each be obeying traffic laws.
The rule on the continent is that you treat a peloton of cyclists the same way as you would an HGV.
If the front of the "vehicle" gets through lights, onto a roundabout or whatever, the rest of it has right of way. If you're in a group of 10, 2-abreast, and the front 2 make it onto a roundabout then a car comes, the car stops. To do otherwise is stupidly dangerous, half the group trying to go, half trying to stop, then it has to regroup... Just treat it the same way you would a long vehicle.
A group is like a shoal of fish or a flock of birds. One unit of many individuals, it should effectively be treated as a hive mind.
None of these stories are selling road club rides to me.
But mudguards in winter, why has nobody mentioned that? No mudguards? Get to the back, son
I've just about manged to persuade everyone to get mud guards fitted by about April, at which point everyone swaps back to their summer bikes! Only to start next winder mudguard free....
The younger riders just seem to wear all black so are less bothered about being splattered with much - I'm in Rapha's finest dayglow Orange winter jacket and object very much to being covered in shit!
Thing is modern mudguards are too short, unless you fit a 9" mudflap to them, they don't actually protect the rider behind.
Meh. Lots if things suck about riding on the road, but as stated by multiple people above, a well formed group ride mashing along is bloody marvellous. The additional speed is amazing and when the group click and works well then it’s brilliant.
Such an awesome thing when you have a big group going like the clappers, everyone riding a few inches off the wheel in front. Poetry in motion. Plus a massive adrenaline rush - could never ride that hard or fast on my own.
The rule on the continent
I rest my case.
then it has to regroup
Fetch my tiny violin.
All it needs is for the first few folk to slow down a bit and let the others catch up. After all, it's not a race.
After all, it’s not a race.
Pretty sure it often is a full blown race......
Thing is modern mudguards are too short, unless you fit a 9″ mudflap to them, they don’t actually protect the rider behind.
PDW Fenders.
"A group is like a shoal of fish or a flock of birds. One unit of many individuals, it should effectively be treated as a hive mind."
Thats not what the law says
Thats not what the law says
True, but the law is a funny thing, it was only when the highway code changed recently that I realised I had been doing zebra crossings wrong for 30years beforehand. I always stopped if someone was waiting to cross and the reason why I did it was because I am not a massive throbber (well mostly not). The law is designed to inhibit the lowest, it's not designed to show the best way to behave, this applies to driving and other areas. I am sure crazy legs knows the law but that doesn't mean people can't be educated to do better than the bare minimum. Just saying yeah but that's not the law is what leads to morons crashing because 'I had right of way'
No. The law means that gruops of cyclists are not above the law and the group does not act as one vehicle.
Because you are in a bunch you cannot ignore the law. See twice chaingangs have caused me to take emergency action to avoid a crash because of they bellendery.
The worst cycling i see is group riding in bunches. More dangerous to others than the neds
No. The law means that gruops of cyclists are not above the law and the group does not act as one vehicle.
Because you are in a bunch you cannot ignore the law. See twice chaingangs have caused me to take emergency action to avoid a crash because of they bellendery.
You always see the wrong side of everything don't you, quite funny really. I never said anything like how you responded. Mind you the highway code does say overtake a group of cyclists like it's one vehicle or something doesn't it?
The group should see itself as a group and ride accordingly, just like a bus or lorry, be more cautious, consider the full length of the group and only proceed when all of them are able to. On the other hand, when I am driving I will see a group and allow it to proceed as a group if I can, just like for years I have allowed pedestrians to cross side roads if I can. The law is the minimum standard, road craft (for want of a better word) goes beyond this whether you are on a bike, motorbike, car, bus, lorry, tractor or even an e scooter. I don't think this is hard to understand is it?
Where I ride they simply say:
* If you can’t maintain xkmph don’t join the ride, with multiple speed options based on ride.
As a new roadie if I can’t keep up fine to be dropped and get bk in gym / training until I can. As long as rules / expectations are clear I don’t see the issues.
As a new roadie
I don’t see the issues.
Much to learn this young one has!
I'm far more forgiving of this - I mean obviously don't rock up able to average 22kph over a 15 mile loop you do and then see if you keep up with the 28kph / 50 mile ride, but stretch yourself a bit and see how it goes, that's how you 'improve' (caveat, no-one says you have to improve, if you like the 22kph group and want to ride with it every week then do)
I'd far rather that than the 28kph rider that keeps turning up on the 24kph ride, and tearing off the front to show how strong he is but that's where we came in.
AA
A few folk on here have stated they dhould be able to break the law if the are in a bunch ignoring red lights and rights of way. That attitude leads to dangerous behaviour
No, not exactly. They said how it works on the continent and that a similar law here should be implemented. That's not the same as saying they should be able to break the law, unless you've already decided that's what you want it to say. They are saying the law should be amended to be the same as on the continent.
Once again, we're descending into 'I saw someone do something once and therefore all members of that group are guilty of the same' which i thought we were better than.
A few folk on here have stated they dhould be able to break the law if the are in a bunch ignoring red lights and rights of way.
Can't say I've seen that
I learnt 'road riding' in Lancaster whilst at Uni there. The local club (Lune RCC) were great; it taught me about pacing, riding in a group, hand signals, and the 'how to behave'. On a normal Sunday run the group would ride at the slowest riders pace for the first 20km and then split into A, B and sometimes a C group. If one dropped off your group you slowed to pick them up again on the assumption everyone has that off day, one day it would be your turn and you will appreciate being allowed to get back on. Its also worth bearing in mind we had a mix, ranging from a couple of 70yr olds to an 18yr old Ben Greenwood (Recycling/MG X Power days). A group ride is precisely that: ride in a group.
On moving to the south I find the standard shocking and now ride solo all the time. Ride groups are all over the road, no discipline, no appreciation for others on the road and it saddens me to say I can understand why other road users become frustrated.
A few folk on here have stated they dhould be able to break the law if the are in a bunch ignoring red lights and rights of way. That attitude leads to dangerous behaviour
I did not say that at all.
I said that's the rules on the continent and it's far a more sensible way of dealing with the situation of a group of riders.
I'm sure if you tried to implement that law in the UK, the gammons would be up in arms, the Daily Wail would have a field day with it... 🙄
Wher as tome thats an absurd way of acting basically stating group cyclists are above the law or the law should be changed to accommodate their dangerous behaviour.
basically stating group cyclists are above the law or the law should be changed to accommodate their dangerous behaviour.
It's not dangerous if you've changed the law and made it 'normal' 🙂
Club rides have local cultures.
I joined the local triathlon club moving from Yorkshire to Shropshire. The local club sold itself as inclusive, friendly and catering for all needs and always welcoming new member's. Unfortunately it didnt really stack up to its own billing.
Most of them think they are awesome and elite athletes (but are truly not). I was quite capable of of keeping up mid pack both running and biking.
However occasionally new people would turn up and be a bit slower. Some of us would wait and encourage the newbies, but prob 80% would just leave them. A couple of times in ear shot of the newbies the 'elite' riders would comment that if you are not quick enough you shouldn't be coming.
I questioned it with a few of them and they were quite clearly of the mindset that they were awesome and the club was awesome. I tried to explain that club rides are about encouraging people to improve and encouraging up take in sport.
I stopped going out with them - lifes too short.
Wher as tome thats an absurd way of acting basically stating group cyclists are above the law or the law should be changed to accommodate their dangerous behaviour.
Interestingly enough I distinctly recall you mentioning on here at some point in the past that you will go early on a red light to get clear of following traffic.
Yes because thats safer in some circumstances
Gruop riding creates dangers for others. The only times i have been out at risk by other cyclists is by chaingangs
Altering the law may make it dafer for the group but increases danget for the rest of us who have to try to share roads with them
The only times i have been out at risk by other cyclists is by chaingangs
Point of order, you've been put at risk by shit chaingangs.
The riders in those chaingangs are very often a danger to themselves and others whatever group size they are in, and whatever the group is doing.
Unfortunately, the shit chaingang is very much on the rise.
Thats certainly posible. My local road club are notorious for bad riding. ERC
You never get your 1.5m space when they overtake and they never warn you they are about to. One day I'LL wobble as they blast past inches from my bars and take the whole group down.
My experience is that All chaingangs are horrible to share roads with
My experience is that All chaingangs are horrible to share roads with
How insightful, how many have you come across...I've been in some but can't recall seeing many when out and about...they are not a common thing
I hate riding in any kind of group on the road. One other mate max but even then I'd always rather just solo.
MTBing is different, far more of a social thing**
** so long as everyone is capable and reasonably fit
Last chaingang i was in pretty much took the entire lane, white line to gutter... With a nice mix of wobblers and those that were overlapping wheels so they could get to the front faster. Pace was all over the place depending on how hard the last lunatic went through and as soon as you got any sort of cross wind you didn't get any sheltering, as there was two metres between up and down.
I don't ride with that club anymore, as despite winning a lot of races, they crash a lot.
The current club isn't interested in racing, so they don't even try. Suits me.
BITD i've ridden in training chaingangs of 30+ riders where the pace barely fluctuates, up and down lines are pretty much elbow to elbow, covering 50+ km in an hour. Basically behaving like a long and slightly flexible single vehicle. Doing it in a race is a slightly different experience though!
My experience is that All chaingangs are horrible to share roads with
To be completely honest, having seen what the "average" club ability/rider mix is like, i wouldn't be hugely surprised if every chaingang you've come across has been pretty terrible.
they are not a common thing
And if it wasn't chaingangs that you've seen, there's even less reason for them to pass you like a bunch of gaping idiots.
how many have you come across…
TJ often rides in East Lothian. He'll have seen loads.
Starting in Colchester? Saturday? (Oh ethics, not the other one).
I've seen a few gravel videos where a road mentality is brought to the dirt.
A chain gang sweeping past pedestrians in situations where I certainly would slow right down or even stop.
I appreciate you have to ride assertively on the road , on the dirt we try and be a lot nicer.
How insightful, how many have you come across…I’ve been in some but can’t recall seeing many when out and about…they are not a common thing
He's obviously ridden with all the chain gains in the whole planet, hence the use of the word 'All' even adding a capital letter to make it explicitly clear. Except it's TJ, so he's probably never even seen one and is just being argumentative because, well because he's TJ....
Jesus, feeling triggered much?
He did say it was in his experience but yeah, just rip into him because he bruised your ego.
Anyway, can someone explain what half wheeling is? Found two definitions and none the wiser.
How insightful, how many have you come across…I’ve been in some but can’t recall seeing many when out and about…they are not a common thing
Come to the Trossachs on a sunny Sunday and say that... 😜
Half wheeling = any overlapping of wheels by the rider behind.
Half wheeling = any overlapping of wheels by the rider behind.
Not my understanding? Thought it was when you were side by side and one rider edges slightly ahead (half a wheel) to push up the pace.
Not a fan of TJs all or nothing style, but not sure he deserves some of the responses
I've seen both definitions, but i'd describe half wheeling as being the bit where one moves half a wheel ahead, the second retaliates, and rinse and repeat until you're doing 40+kph and both wondering why the other is doing it!
The other is overlapping, with the risk that if someone then swerves an overlapped wheel clash usually causes a takedown; whereas shoulder to shoulder contact is more survivable.
I thought the responses faiy mild condidering.
It my experience that the club rides / chain gangs that blat around east Lothian are arrogant and dangerous.
Thats MY experience.
I think this is probably one of those situations where the culture in the clubs is that their behaviour is acceptable whereas to anyone else they are not.
On a twisty road where i am in primary its not acceptable to blast past in a group within inches with no warning. They might be comfortable be so close to other cyclist but folk like me want our 1.5m as is our legal right.
Its careless or dangerous cycling pure and simple
Would you accept a car passing within inches?
It's not a legal right, it's in the HWC as a should, not a must.
On a twisty road where i am in primary its not acceptable to blast past in a group within inches with no warning. They might be comfortable be so close to other cyclist but folk like me want our 1.5m as is our legal right.
Just like an HGV overtaking really...
The otherjonv
Yes and cause an accident while not obeying the hw will land you in legal bother. Pretty much automatic careless or dangerous cycling
I say again. Would you accept a car overtaking with inches to spare because the dont want to slow to wsit to overtake safely?
Just pointing out that it's not a legal right and your post is factually incorrect.
The rest is opinion, and you are entitled to it.
It my experience that the club rides / chain gangs that blat around east Lothian are arrogant and dangerous
This I happy to accept is true, but I strongly suspect that what you think is a chain gang is in fact just a badly organised rabble.
A chain gang is AFAIK two rotating lines with the front rider peeling off as soon as they are on the front. Most roads don't allow this unless large and very quiet. I have done some local "chaingangs" and they are not chaingangs just riders doing turns on the front.
Jonv
Would ypu accept a car blasting past within inches when you are riding primary on a twisty road? Why is it acceptable for a group of cyclists to do so?
Next time it happens i am going to repot them to the police because local police fine car drivers for doing this. Its dangerous. If i had wobblwd or sweved they would have hit me
Still none the wiser on the half wheeling, those were the definitions I found. Probably two different ones so folk have something to argue about 😆
A chain gang is AFAIK two rotating lines with the front rider peeling off as soon as they are on the front. Most roads don’t allow this unless large and very quiet.
But I have learnt something!
Just like an HGV overtaking really…
Nicely done.
Whilst I can’t argue with tj’s experiences, I’ve ridden a few chain gangs with a club in the East Lothian area and I thought they were perfectly safe.
I’m comparing them with my own club who I occasionally do them with in fife, and again, it’s a well drilled effort and we don’t have folks wobbling all over the road
Plenty of knob end roadies about no doubt. And everything I’ve ever heard about Edinburgh RC points to the fact it’s infested with them so maybe that’s who he’s referring to
I guess so tp ERC are well known as numpties
The issue is i think that what participants in these rides think is acceptable and normal is not.
Would you overtake a solo pootler riding primary on a twisty road with less tham 1.5 m space or would you sliw behind them and wait for a safe space to overtake?
Would you overtake a solo pootler riding primary on a twisty road with less tham 1.5 m space or would you sliw behind them and wait for a safe space to overtake?
I'd probably undertake them to be perfectly honest.
😁
Half wheeling = any overlapping of wheels by the rider behind.
In 35 years of riding and racing, I've never heard overlapping wheels called that.
In 35 years of riding and racing, I’ve never heard overlapping wheels called that.
I've heard it called that but it is wrong 🙂
Would you overtake a solo pootler riding primary on a twisty road with less tham 1.5 m space or would you sliw behind them and wait for a safe space to overtake?
Depends, if I knew it was you I'd slow down and sit on your wheel!!!
Otherwise I'd wait until I could use the other side of the road.
In 35 years of riding and racing, I’ve never heard overlapping wheels called that.
In 35 years of riding I've only been in a few peloton stylleee groups, and that was the term used to warn us about staying in line as we headed up for the front or back to the back 😜
Always thought half wheeling was when you are overlapping with the rider in front.
Not my understanding? Thought it was when you were side by side and one rider edges slightly ahead (half a wheel) to push up the pace.
Only ever my understanding of half-wheeling too. An older guy I used to ride with used to get unbelievably aggressive with any body who did it. The younger riders would do it just to experience the full Basil.
This is all bringing back repressed memories of being overtaken by chain gangs from a certain club in Richmond Park on a Saturday morning…
This is also why I’ve not summoned up the courage to join the local shop ride yet in my new locale.
Jonv
Would ypu accept a car blasting past within inches when you are riding primary on a twisty road? Why is it acceptable for a group of cyclists to do so?
Next time it happens i am going to repot them to the police because local police fine car drivers for doing this. Its dangerous. If i had wobblwd or sweved they would have hit me
I don't know why you keep asking me, it's not relevant to the point. You said you wanted them to pass with 1.5m space. That's a fair request, irrespective of what i think or not.
You said it was your legal right. It's not. In the HWC it's a should, not a must.
I want you to stop arguing with me, it's my legal right to correct your factually wrong statement.
I keep asking you because i want to hear your answer. I want to know how far your defense of dangerous and anti social cycling goes
I think your refusal to answer speaks volumes
I'm not defending it in the slightest.
I made one single statement pointing out that the HWC clearly says should, not must.
The rest was never an argument, I have not given or expressed any view on it so how that speaks volumes or constitutes a defence of dangerous cycling is entirely in your own imagination.
Go back and look at what I have (repeatedly) said and please point out where I defend it?
You may be getting the flack that should have gone to others. Cant be arsef looking back
Sorry
Im an old beffudled man
Thankyou.
Now, seeing as you asked. FWIW, I lead group rides, not chaingangs. The club limits these to 8 max
The closest my groups come to it would be riding two abreast as is our legal right, when conditions allow. And other times we may ride 'at pace' (it's all relative) in single file, when conditions allow, where typically the stronger riders will do a turn of a couple of mins on the front, and then peel off and drift back before rejoining the line. Maybe not at the back, maybe another rider will open a gap so the stronger 3 or 4 can rotate at the front in this way. We 50 something overweight desk jockeys can sometimes hold 35kph for up to about 6 mins like this before we're all ****ed!! Go us!
If we encounter another slower group or rider I will slow the group's pace to keep a gap until the road is clear to pass. Then I will call ahead words to the effect of 'passing on the right if we can please' and then we will give it some welly to pass in a way that doesn't take up all the road for a longer period, and then we'll hold that pace for enough time to open a gap behind so we don't merge and create a group that's too big. Is it 1.5m? Depends on the road but it will be announced, and it won't be 'inches'. Is it like a car or HGV passing? I don't personally agree - we don't weigh 37T, and even giving it beans our relative passing speed is probably about 10kph, which is fast jogging speed, without the wash, etc.
I don't think proper chaingangs working through and off are appropriate on the road in general - but there's a few roads in the Surrey area where I live where it can work. I've done it on closed roads and done right it is exhilarating. I understand why you don't like being close passed unannounced by chaingangs or fast groups, and I've never said you were wrong about that.
I used to think half-wheeling was overlapping…it’s not
THis thread, the attitudes, the disucssion and the downright bloody mindedness of people completely highlights why i Zwift for my road rides, not road ride.
It all seems very very defined and serious for what should be a fun activity.
I thought this was MTB group rides at first, but its roadie world.
Myself for MTB group rides albeit small groups.
Wait at the top of climbs, wait at obvious junctions, like the forks conudrum.
For archey roving shoots, everyone stays behind the archer shooting. Dont kill the land owner.
Its easy, basic common sense.
PS Even though I dont have a road bike I like the GCN Show for some reason 🙂
I used to think half-wheeling was overlapping…it’s not
Yeah me too, but ultimately, who cares?
THis thread, the attitudes, the disucssion and the downright bloody mindedness of people completely highlights why i Zwift for my road rides, not road ride.
It all seems very very defined and serious for what should be a fun activity.
Posted 18 minutes ago
You’re not meant to be having fun on a a road bike surely - it’s just for the pain and suffering 🤣
It all seems very very defined and serious for what should be a fun activity
It’s really not all that serious. Certain rules exist which are there for safety of you and other riders but that aside, riding with a group of your mates can be ace
Chain gangs form a very small portion of club rides. They are far more serious, and tbh not all that much fun, and I tend to avoid them
But a chain gang is about as far away from our Saturday club bun run as your average enduro race is to pootling round your local xc loop in the woods. Ie just like mtb riding, road riding takes many different forms, and in a good club all standards of riders and tastes are catered for, and beginner riders should be made welcome and looked after
It all seems very very defined and serious for what should be a fun activity
Ultimately there needs to be some definition/rules, not to kill the fun but help the group work well.
Group works well, everyone has a better time 🙂
riding with a group of your mates can be ace
Yeah i've struggled with it when i've done it with groups, egos kick in, bloke on front gives a kick, others struggle on hills, then bloke nails it over a crest and goes... it's then on...
Sometimes i'm one of the bad-guys in the above scenario, sometimes i'm one of the sheep.... But none of the rides have been massively enjoyable... there's no adrenaline for me. The only sense of 'woah' and 'arrrrgghh' is brought on by the cars, not the fun factor of trails, roots, rocks and jumpy bits.
Yeah me too, but ultimately, who cares?
What an odd statement.
Half wheeling = any overlapping of wheels by the rider behind
As with a lot of things in roadie-land, there are similar terms but with specific meanings. Half wheeling is where you have a normal group ride, 2-abreast and one of the lead riders is constantly slightly ahead of the other. Often caused by using too big a gear compared to the other rider, it pushes him half a wheel in front so the other rider works harder to try and bring himself level and suddenly the whole group will be splintering behind.
As I said earlier (and seemingly what prompted this thread by the OP) the opposite is true around here. The Chaingang’s and faster group rides are incredibly informal and enjoyable. Turn up, make pretend smack talk, pull through till you can’t, sit on until you either recover or can’t and then solo in as hard as you can or if you’re still there- sprint for Waitrose roundabout glory 🤣
Everyone is really really enjoying them being back on this year too it seems- there’s a great atmosphere.
Club rides would be different as they need to cater to a paying membership’s needs with inclusivity and matching reality with the billed expectation of pace/behaviour etc.
If you go to these unaffiliated rides with your own objectives then life gets so much easier. I don’t expect anyone to wait, anyone to tell me the route, anyone to warn me of anything or to do anything to facilitate my ride. I know roughly how long I want to be out and how much power I want to do and maybe use the group to go a bit further than I would solo. Hopefully I’ll have a few chats and shared laughs along the way and other people will get what they want out of the experience but I can always say goodbye at the next junction and carry on with the solo ride I’d have been doing anyhow.