[Closed] Gravel: Mason Bokeh or Reilly Gradient

There's a Gradient downstairs in the bike room, wireless SRAM, it's bloody lovely.

Open UP though?

The Open is indeed a great looking machine. But price and I have done the carbon thing now, I am after some metal.

Toss a coin? They both look fantastic and get great reviews. I'd want to scratch my Ti itch!

I've been having a similar debate with myself. The Ribble CGR Ti also looks nice, but mainly because of those Zipp wheels. So I'm thinking that a Gradient with Zipp 303s and Di2 would be about right.

I'm biased, being a Bokeh owner, but I'd go for the Mason. Bloody brilliant bike.

One of these days, when (if!) I can afford it, I'll be upgrading it to a Ti Bokeh. I've no experience of the Reilly but it would need to be good to be better than the Mason.

Don’t think you can go wrong with either of them. I have an Orange Bokeh and love it- I note that the Ti frameset at £3.5k is just a bit more than it cost me to fully build up the alu frame with Di2 Ultegra, dyno hub on handbuilts with supernova lighting, plus spare set of tyres, so I can live with the odd scratch.

I would get a Fairlight Secan, and actually just have (full-build rather than frameset). Fits all of the criteria you list above, and has clearance for huge tyres (I've got 42mms on, and could go larger).
Fwiw I also seriously considered the Bokeh and Gradient.

The Mason and Reilly are too expensive for me, but I do love the look of the Fairlight Secan.
OP, I know that this is your shortlist but Shand Stooshie and Enigma Escape would be on my list too at the price you're looking at.

I wasn't in quite your position in terms of cash-to-splash, but glad I scratched my Ti itch with my Pickenflick ... Frame still looks fresh despite 14 months and 6000km later. You can scratch your orange itch with some blingy hubs, bottle cages, bar tape etc.

Plus get some skinwall tyres.

Rides really well too.

I have previously looked at the fairlight.. indeed a fab looking frame..
It dropped off my shortlist due to me wanting something a touch lighter. Bokeh and Gradient are approx 1600gr for 50/52cm.
I'm a light guy so I always aim for light bikes.

Also the aesthetics of a chipped steel frame put me off. I had a steel 456 and where chain slap and stone chips started to go rusty, it looked pants. Avoidable to some extent but still an issue for me, especially on a £1100 frame.

The pickenflick was on my shortlist for my current build.. the stand over is too much for my short 30" legs.
The geo is too tall.

I have been very pleased with my gradient, buying a second one for my partner this month. Build up with di2 1x11 hope tech cassette and USE components it’s 8.8kg without pedals, about 9.1kg as ridden.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/whsqu7wBAJQ7ybbk6

The photographer brought his Ti Bokeh to our photoshoot last month, absolutely stunning.
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[url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/rjohnson76/47388736841/ ]Little Piggy on To Bokeh[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/27678965@N00/ ][/url] - [url= https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.dariogf.flickr2BBcode_lite ]Flickr2BBcode LITE[/url]

The quality of the finishing was exquisite and the colour is warmer than the usual Ti grey.
Serious want.

I've got it down to Gradient or the Enigma Escape. Not solved the money side of the issue yet though!

Each time I make my choice, I go back to the other.

Each time I make my choice, I go back to the other.

Have / can you test ride them both? It's a lot of money to spend so worth being as sure as you can be ...

Mixed riding not continent crushing. Evening and weekend gravel, bridleway, singletrack and the only road will be joining those bits together.

given that they are more road bike than singletrack weapon based on the above fact that you'll be riding hardly any tarmac I'd choose....

...an mtb

Another Gradient owner here. With two sets of wheels (some hope XC 27.5 and hope road wheels) I’m all set for pretty much anything the South of England can throw at me.

Have had it for 9 months and it’s been awesome. Mark is also a top guy - great customer service and he’ll help you spec out what you want/need

I currently run both a hard tail and a gravel bike. I enjoy the gravel bike far more and since getting one 2 years ago the mtb only gets used for mtb specific stuff.
Gravel bike all the way..

Yes Mark has been very helpful so far. So has Alex from Mason.
I can't get the time to visit unfortunately as I'm flat out with work and general life duties at the moment.

I'm trying to arrange a visit with a mate who owns both in his fleet, to get a closer look. I've ridden his Gradient down the road only.

Cheers for the insights guys.

Great looking bikes. I quite fancy that Bokeh.

What others have clearance for wide tyres?

My brother has a Bokeh. I couldn’t believe it was worth the money until I rode it! I really want one, but I don’t think I’d get the use out of it. He rides his on the road in winter, and lots of park type singletrack in the summer. Seems to work well on both.

A shameless plug - but I am currently selling a 57 2018 sram force gradient 😉

Lee

Lee, why are you selling, any issues with the ride or likewise?

I stupidly also bought a ti Fargo - then the wife got made redundant ...soooo !

To be honest, I have ridden it a max of 10 miles, it’s such a waste - it’s a beautiful bike and rides like a dream - the frame is something I would happily hang on the wall, as well as being super versatile

Lee

So.... As expected.. I still cannot really choose between them.
Nobody on here has a bad word against either, only good things about both.

I'm slightly leaning over to the Reilly but only because of the most stupid of reasons.. I like brushed frames (my MTB is brushed Alu too). I guess that's the problem with extremely close contenders, you really start to pick the tiniest of reasons to buy / or not buy which sounds so fickle.

After much painful deliberation I ordered a Bokeh with a set of 650b rims. Monstercross here I come.
And it should be with me by the end of the week, ready for building. I'm well excited.!
No other bike purchase choice has caused me this much headache, crazy 1st world problems eh!?!

Bokeh is nice, Riley I don’t know anything about.......However if I wanted an ‘adventure’ bike I’d 100% go Ti for the durability of finish and comfort.

I’d personally go with Enigma

http://www.enigmabikes.com/bikes/discipline/off-road/

My mate's Bokeh's forks came apart, so keep an eye on the dropouts. Mason warrantied it, no problem. We'll see if it's a one-off or a design fault.

Here we go, as soon as I ordered one, I hear the horror stories. 😉

I have already sourced some 3M clear protective tape for the prime stone chip areas so have that covered (literally)
And everything I read or people I speak with say the alu Bokeh is just as comfy as the Ti, especially as it will be on 2.0 rubber, so the need for some comfort from the frame is pretty much obsolete now with fat tyres at 30psi.

The lines are very blurred now between the properties of frames, now we have so many variables open to us to make them behave like we require. The characteristic trail softening of Ti can be offset with big rubber, add that wider tyres are now proven to be just as good in most real world environments it's a good thing.

If I was sticking with narrower 700c tyres at harder pressures then I would've considered the Ti more.

The Enigma is too £££ for me, although lovely I agree. The J Guillem Atalaya was up there too. Lush!

I went over and over with exact same decision but settled on the Reilly, mostly because i wanted something for Torino-Nice last year and this year.

Both rode brilliantly, with little between them, but i figured as i was going to be doing week long tours with bike covered in bags, that the ti would be best as i could just polish the frame and not have to worry about the paint.

Scud, very good point re the paint and it's a big plus for the Ti frames.
3M tape is my solution for that, I applied some to my current carbon gravel and its still spotless. A bit of a faff to apply but does solve the problem to an extent.

I could not resist the deep glossy Flare Orange of the Bokeh, and the graphics, ohh and the smooth welds, and the internal cables, the headtube badge, ohh yeah and the all the good things said about them.

I'm sure the Gradient would have been equally as good. They really are very closely matched.

I’ve got a 1st gen PX Tempest - Ti, designed by Mark Reilly, complete with SRAM Force Hydro for the same price as a Gradient frame. Good clearance, rack/guard mounts, bolt through both ends and rides great.

Yes I was tempted with the Tempest too.. My current MTB is a Scandal and my gravel/road is a Bish Bash Bosh and I love both of them. Truly great frames.

I was after something a bit more special this time around so was wanting a niche/lower production/lesser known frameset..

I get that. Just wanted to put out there the Tempest is a great bike.

i have just bought and built a Tempest. looks well built, feels really nicely balanced riding around my backyard, getting its first big spin tomorrow morning. easy to build up, plenty clearance for nano 40mm tyres, used a straight bar. - and it is very cheap !!

Aye the tempest is a interesting proposition. Great value as ever from PX.

Well, here it is, in its full orange form..

https://photos.app.goo.gl/B73AzPTfnCqFXAaM7

Very nice indeed.

No pull cords !

No pull cords... but the exit holes are big enough so should be an easy job to get the cable at the other end... Magnet and/or hooked wire.. I've done a few.

How tall are you/what size did you go for?

Dickie, I'm a short arse.. 5ft 6" on a good day. 29" inside leg.
Size 50 (XS)

Here she is:

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[img] [/img]

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Tasty! Did you have much difficulty routing the internal cabling?

V neat hedge too, although your paving could do with a quick vac... 😉

V Nice.
The clearance with a 650b set is impressive.

No problems with internal routing, I don't see why people get so upset about it. It's a slight faff at times, requires some patience but with some steady technique it's easily do'able. A loop of thin Cat5e copper cable is my go to method for laso'ing the cable as it travels past the exit hole.
Thanks on the hedge and yes the paving needs some attention.

Yes, plenty of clearance for 650b 2" rubber, loads.

Finishing touches will include a matching disc for the front and maybe a black saddle (but I love my trusty brown Charge Ti saddle so much)

Nice. Needs orange valve caps though ;o)

Flatmount caliper on the front would be tidier too.

Yes yes... I hear you.
Both are post mount calipers with adapters. The cost of swapping to flat mount seems unjust. But agree it would look cleaner and save some weight/complication too.
It is on the list for the future.

Nice! I got a black one since I decided not to wait months for the next order. It now has orange tape, cages and cables to match the graphics!

And I’ve ordered on orange cervelo.

Maybe should have held out for the right colour bokeh! But it certainly ride well and got me round HONC no problem.

The orange is lush and very very shiny..!

That’s lovely.

What chainring is that on the chain set?

Some cheapo from Ebay!
Its really nice, 38t direct mount without a spider so very clean looking.
Wear seems fine and its only like £15 or somthing.

snap

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Sweeeeet..! Although yours looks MUCH faster than mine.. 🙁

Don’t suppose you have an eBay link do you?
I’ve had a look and can’t find it but I really want it for my new build gravel bike.

Thanks.

Cat needs m(e)owing

Is that your correct saddle height? I think I'd want a bit more stand over than that looks like it's got for unexpected dismounts riding off road. Love the colour.

Saddle height, its about 1cm higher now give or take. I'm pretty short so have this issue on pretty much all gravel/road frames so its an occupational hazard for me.

Cats been hoovered instead.

Neutrino Components are the makers of the chainring.
Google them and you will get their own website, or punch it into Ebay and you should find em.

I’m liking that. Good work

Very interested in a Bokeh, what’s the verdict on sram v shimano 1x or 2x?
Are they as good as they seem?
Thanks PJ.

Great. Been running force 1x for 2 years now. I removed the wide range 42t rear cassette for a narrower 36t, also dropped the front ring to 38t. It's pretty flat round here so that gearing suited my fitness and the terrain better. I rarely hit the road so top end is not important and if I need 42t at the rear then the MTB comes out.

Yes sometimes on longer sections I'm slightly in between cadences but it's a small price for such a simple and clean setup without a front mech and multiple chain rings. I don't think there is any reason not to 1x unless you really require your cadence to be spot on all the time.

No problems apart from the top jockey wheel gumming up, apparently that's a common issue in the mud for this mech.

As for comparing to shimano, I've never used a shimano road/gravel/cx setup, so I cant.

Thanks for the info, as I suspected that 1x would suit me fine,
cheers!

really like the look of the Bokeh but could never bring myself to leave one in our bike shed at work with the way people throw their BSO in there.

PJ - There isn't really an off the shelf Shimano 1x road setup but nothing to stop you just using any shimano group and running a single ring up front on the chainset of your choice. What's missing is the clutch derailleur but it's not essential for road / gravel in my experience provided you use a narrow wide ring. The left lever has nothing to shift but thats not a problem either.

SRAM are more on the ball for this and have the dedicated 1x groups. I hired an Open Up last year that had Force 1x and it was great, I'd have no problem using that or Shimano. My bike has a franken group of SRAM cranks, shimano mechs and Sunrace cassette and it all works.

Finally re: gear ratios on 1x for road: it's always going to be compromised between range and gear steps so you need to work out whats important to you. If you like to bowl along on the road and run up and down the cassette to keep your cadence then it might not be for you. With an 11-40 cassette the steps are a little awkward in that middle range where you are pedalling along on the level or rolling terrain but otherwise its ok. As far as range goes, 40-11 pedalled at 100 rpm will get you moving at 30mph, 40-40 / 1:1 should get you up most hills

If you felt like it you can run eTap as 1x. As long as you can cope with max 32 on the back.

If you felt like it you can run eTap as 1x. As long as you can cope with max 32 on the back

is there a reason you couldn't fit a hanger extender for a larger cassette?

So when are Shimano going to jump on the road/cx/gravel 1x wagon..? They must be losing many customers to SRAM who want an off the shelf group, rather than bodging one together.
Do they have anything in the pipeline that is public yet?

No idea but it can't be hard to add a chainset, rebranded mtb mech and a lever without a shifter mechanism. They're probably trying to invent some daft new proprietary chainring or cassette for it first though

Thanks for the replies, I’ll have a good look at all the options over the weekend, at the moment I’m thinking bokeh with 650b and rival, hope to order something in the next week.
Cheers.

Go Force if you can, its a top line frame and decent wheelset so seems a shame to stick 'only' Rival onto it. ? If you do go for the Force chaninset ensure to get the crank boots to protect them.
Don't make my mistake and leave it until they are chipped up well and look tatty..

Shimano do have a clutch road mech in the Ultegra RX, but it has a 34t sprocket limit. It does work very well though; I have one on my Gradient (ooh, back on topic!). Surely only a matter of time before they do a 1x system.

Interested to know how a 650b 'gravel' bike compares to a rigid 29er mtb. With a rigid mtb you can ride tech stuff, within reason, all be it rather slower that suspension. Appreciate that it is subjective, but at what point would I be out of my depth on something like a bokeh?

When I was setting up my gravel bike I wanted a clutch mech and a 10-42 cassette run off a 1X set up.
In the end I settled on Shimano Ultegra Di2 levers mated to an XTR Di2 rear mech. Cranks are Next SL with a 40T Superstar round ring.Cassette is a Sram mtb jobby. Because the left lever was redundant I set it up so that the right lever changes up the block and the left lever goes down.
So far all this works very well. My riding is 95% off road in the forests and hills of the Purbecks and Dorset (and Paris-Roubaix a week or so ago) I do have a 38T ring ready for some alpine stuff.
As someone said above, I'm not absolutely sure you need a clutch mech if using a thick/thin ring, but we do have some rocky downhills so its an insurance.

Ordered a bokeh this morning with ‘only’ Rival on it, will upgrade in future as bits wear out, went for 650b option as planning mostly forest roads and towpath with road to join them up.

Appreciate that it is subjective, but at what point would I be out of my depth on something like a bokeh?

Only you know that but the question is more at what point you'd be having more fun on another bike. It's probably when you wish you had bigger tyres, flat bars and more distance between your genitals and the top tube.

Good work Peajay... !

The Bokeh option works for 90% of my riding year. I live in an area with hundreds of miles of relatively smooth gravel paths though fields, bridleways and shoddy roads.. My MTB is too much for this stuff and I dont enjoy it as much.
The other 10% is when I fancy some wheely/bunnyhoppy/jumpy action or when I go to the Lakes/Dorset/Peaks for the family holiday twice a year.. Then I take the MTB.

To be honest, both bikes feel crapy in the other ones world.
Dont get me wrong; The Bokeh will do gnarly, the MTB will do miles... I choose the most suited bike in advance as its pretty obvious what trails I'm planning to hit that day.

I dont fully enjoy descending nasty rocky trails on 40cm drops, rigid, on relatively skinny tyres.
I equally dont fully enjoy miles of fast gravel trails between open fields sitting upright with massive tyres, old skool 26" wheels and wide bars.

Its all about what you ride most of. Both bikes will survive in the others world for a short while.
I suppose the risk of crashing a gravel bike on a MTB trail is higher and subsequently has a larger negative consequence compared to being a bit slower, bored and fed up on a MTB on the miles of gravel..

Does that make sense or have I babbled?

I feel like mountain biking has left me behind, spent the last 3 1/2 years using my fat bike for everything and loving it but now feeling like a change, the fatty will still do the commuting and play stuff and the bokeh will be used for longer stuff. I’m sure modern mtbs are brilliant things to ride but I’m just not into jumps and drop offs and berms, and these long bikes just don’t look right in my old school eyes!

My set up.
2x11 using the FSA gravel crankset. 30/46 with an 11-34t on the back.
Hope rx4 brakes
Hunt wheels.
Thomson bars, stem and post.

Amazing bike