[Closed] Gravel Biking in the UK: Just like 'Mountain Biking' was 25-30 years ago...

[quote=imnotverygood ]The Slate is a bit odd though. Slick tyres and a lowest gear of 36/28. Seems to be far more biased towards the [b]gravel[/b] road than a lefty fork would imply.As this thread is highlighting, there are regional variations in what we think of as "light off road". It's probably true to say that the Slate is built for a type of terrain we have little of in the UK.

I think the main point of modern marketing has more to do with the availability & "normality" of suspension forks, anyone who didn't grow up in the 90's think they are the norm & they ride to suit, those of us who have progressed from rigid to suss forks just see gravel bikes as the crap we were riding 25 years ago, or embrace them & use skinny by modern standards 29er tyres 😉

[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5661/21867492676_134e11749b_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5661/21867492676_134e11749b_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/zjmBHN ]IMG_1058[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/94658862@N08/ ]Martin Robbo[/url], on Flickr

Or this that I was riding about ten years ago

[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5592/14948498311_3e3fa9fe50_k.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5592/14948498311_3e3fa9fe50_k.jp g"/> [/img][/url][url= https://flic.kr/p/oLWXKv ]DSC00073[/url] by [url= https://www.flickr.com/photos/94658862@N08/ ]Martin Robbo[/url], on Flickr

I can't say I remember wide Mavic rims? Wide chrome ones that weighed a ton with pimpled braking surfaces, then everything seemed to go ARAYA or RIGIDA, Those wide Mavic rims must have been a fortune back in the day.

I remember the XM321 Sup also the 19 and 17 I think?

Everything went narrow in the 90's as the MTB world adopted skinny wheels as well as the Lycra 🙂
I thought that 25mm rims were quite wide by today's standard?

Interesting thread. I think a 29" F/s Xc bike with lockout is much better than a gravel bike as an all rounde thoughr. Far less fatiguing off road and almost as fast on.

quotecrosshair - Member
Interesting thread. I think a 29" F/s Xc bike with lockout is much better than a gravel bike as an all round though. Far less fatiguing off road and almost as fast on.

Without trying to sound demeaning my point was that everything was ridden without suspension a while back, you learnt to ride without it, no excuses, just ride what you could & curse what you couldn't.

Quite! So now you can get good VFM f/s bikes with lockout- I don't know why you'd bother with a gravel bike or even a CX bike for any rough stuff really. By erring on the side of too much off-road capability, you cover far more bases than erring on too little.

Ironically, after using a Scott Spark for almost all of my riding for three years- I've just bought a CX bike.....to use as a road bike 😀

I've done Ludgershall --> Warminster --> Ludgershall across Salisbury Plain (a proper gravel bike ride if ever there was one) at 15mph before on my Spark XC bike so I will test my CX this year and see if it's any quicker- it certainly won't be as comfy.

I ride my CX/gravel/gnarmac* round the crap local trails I used to ride my late 80/early 90s first MTBs around, so yeah I get the op, but on my MTB I ride much better local stuff unsuited to CX, yeah I've nursed my CX down some of them but it's not a heap of fun.

I like the frame, bars, brakes etc, the limiting factor for me is tyres, at 32c I either have to pump em so hard I have no grip (or blow off the rim tubeless) or I puncture (or pinch/tear tubeless). I [i]could[/i] use bigger tyres but then I'd be riding a 29er with wonky bars (I already have a proper 29er) and it wouldn't be a lightening quick CX bike anymore.

Get me some tyres that I don't flat at ~37psi, fit under my 'guards (its also my commuter bike) and are fairly light and I'd ride my CX down more stuff (would be perfect for big rides interspersed with a few rocky descents like Mary Townley)

*bloody hell everyone from purists to gravel riders (who don't do gravel races) moaning about the CX tag.

We need a show me your gravel, gnarmac, CX thread, for inspiration purposes,

I still think these 'gravel' bikes are basically crossers with a compact chainset, sold to roadies who think their bike wont cope with a quick lap round Grafham Water in the middle of summer. On the plus side, some of the said roadies might find being strictly tarmac-bound is as mind numbing as it actually is....

^^ we've had loads of threads with pics, I'm not too sure you'd want to see my CXer again though... 😆

"D0NK - Member
I ride my CX/gravel/gnarmac* round the crap local trails I used to ride my late 80/early 90s first MTBs around, so yeah I get the op, but on my MTB I ride much better local stuff unsuited to CX, yeah I've nursed my CX down some of them but it's not a heap of fun."

same.

^^^^^^but I've never ridden an office chair off road

I still think these 'gravel' bikes are basically crossers with a compact chainset, sold to roadies who think their bike wont cope with a quick lap round Grafham Water in the middle of summer.

Well they are closer to road bikes than MTBs. Wider tyres make a difference but for a lot of the 'gravel' riding I do in the New Forest my track bike with 28c squeezed in was fine (as a road bike would have been). You don't get a lot of cornering grip with a 28c but then I never found I got that much with a 38c on a previous cross bike bike either and avoided rough trails (or slowed down a bit) on both.

My MTB with high volume 2.3" tyres and flat bars is however nothing like a road/gravel/track bike and nothing stops me (and that is with a rigid fork)

It's interesting reading STW threads at the moment (OK not [i]interesting[/i] Maybe just telling), there seems to be three main forms of bicycle evangelist knocking about currently:

1- the CX/Gnarmac/gravel lovers
2- the fatbike fanbois
3- the "modernists" those puzzled by anybody who doesn't throw fistfuls of cash the latest MTB innovations...

All of these are niches that the marketing people are obviously happy to push at the moment, which neither legitimises or negates them but is a simple fact.

There are various other strongly held opinion camps on here too the "why doesn't anyone like 3x9 bikes anymore?" brigade the "flat pedals are [i]proper[/i]" crew and the "camelbaks make more sense than bottles" posse (the opposite position being adopted by another faction typically)...

All variations on the STW tradition of "pick an argument and be a dick about it"... Ultimately though I have to say I prefer the "it's all bikes, it's all good" ethos though even if it is a bit more boring and conciliatory...

Nothing much has changed, the guy third from the left is Monsieur Francois Enduro.

[img] [/img]

Seriously though the frame design looks radical, and are those footpegs on the forks? No freewheel?

They definitely didn't have freewheels at first, not sure if he has or not though.

It's interesting reading STW threads at the moment (OK not interesting Maybe just telling), there seems to be three main forms of bicycle evangelist knocking about currently:

1- the CX/Gnarmac/gravel lovers
2- the fatbike fanbois
3- the "modernists" those puzzled by anybody who doesn't throw fistfuls of cash the latest MTB innovations...

Kind of true. The thing is though - it's only the first two who keep smugly harping on about how they've (re)discovered some kind of pure essence of mountain biking and how life-affirming it is.

I guess I fall into the third camp seeing as I've just bought a new Capra and love it, but it's not quite the same. If I had infinite money and garage space I'd have every sub-genre of bike, I wouldn't just pick one and then claim that all the others are rubbish.

I think most of the people who evangelise about fat bikes and CX/'Gnarmac' (*shudder*) are people who've realised they are never going to be any good/fast at enduro type riding or have crap local trails so are trying to make out everyone else has 'lost the true spirit of mountain biking'. 😉

MTBing is diverse. That's about all there is to it.

Imagine skiers arguing about which is the true form of skiing - XC, Telemark, DH, slalom..? They are recognised different activities.

I like my CX because I don't enjoy road riding and I'm too unfit to lug my heavy steel MTB any significant distance at the moment!

Grum, On the other hand it might be that those who evangelise have rode / raced Enduro and seen the benefits that crossing disciplines gives a distinct advantage, I'll give you a for instance as I know folk like the cold hard facts, my calculations may be out of kielter though as I have used STRAVA as a basis for my calculations.

I rode 8 enduros last year, I managed to finish inside the top 25% on all of them, I finished them all and was fortunate enough suffer mechanicals on the transitions, I had no question what so ever about my bike handling skills and can ride anywhere, you can take that however you want, if you think I'm bigging myself up that's fine I'm just trying to set the scene for you so that you don't (*Shudder*). Summer months in Whistler and fortnights in the Alps tend to flatten out the UK's riding, so my local trails are pretty crap, I'm plenty good enough and fast enough for Enduro BUT the one factor that hit me harder than anything during stages was Physical Fitness. And I would consider myself relatively fit having served for many years in the forces as an infantryman on the front line, So this winter I've worked on my fitness on a CX bike that I bought in Colotado 6 years ago, so it's not new. The first time I went out on it in October I got stitch, by the 6 th time I was feeling the benefits. I've covered 3 thousand miles in just shy of 6 months. I took my Nomad to the peaks on Sunday and beat every single one of my own PR's and felt that much fitter than I did at this time last year. There are massive advantages to riding different disciplines for health and physical well being for me, as a lad I rode BMX as most lads do, I competed in Road Racing and track cycling whilst in the forces. Time being the biggest hinderance to my riding over the decades meant I got blinkered and focused mainly on DH, freeride and now enjoying the Enduro thing, now in semi retirement at 42 I'm now enjoying riding different bikes, I went out on my sons BMX the other day :P.

I'm interested in your idea of true Mountain Biking,

grum - Member
I think most of the people who evangelise about CX/'Gnarmac' (*shudder*) are people who've realised they are never going to be any good/fast at enduro type riding or have crap local trails so are trying to make out everyone else has 'lost the true spirit of mountain biking'.

Yup, thats me right there.

Are you a mind reader or have you been watching/stalking me?

Yup, thats me right there.

Are you a mind reader or have you been watching/stalking me?

Yes to both.

@xyeti I think you took my post a bit too seriously! I have a CX-ish bike that I ride on the roads sometimes (and a BMX). I've nothing against any form of riding bikes at all - I just find all this 'oh I've rediscovered the true nature of mountain biking by bimbling around on a basic bike (that still cost me loads of money)' stuff a bit silly.

Oh, I did see the wink,,,,,, well I resurrected my CX from the depths of a garage that hadn't seen light of day for 5 years so after my initial purchase which was almost given to me I'm kind of in pocket,

If only I could go back and edit that post 😳

None of this nicheist, sub genre nonsense means anything.

Ignore the marketing, ignore what anyone else says or thinks.

You can pretty much have whatever type of bike you want - the lines between hybrid/tourer/CX/commuter/whatever aren't really relevant anymore.

Flat bars or drops, luggage or not, CX race to expedition bike, you can increasingly buy a bike to suit your needs.

And the option of big tyres brings little penalty.
A Genesis Vagabond frame weighs the same as a CdF, has similar toe overlap on smaller sizes even when fitted with 2inch tyres.
Or 23's if you want them.

They could have saved a lot of fuss if they had just kept calling them ATBs.
🙂

Yep - those Frenchies had the right idea.

I can really imagine the meeting at a big brand HQ

Market research guy

"We think that there is space in the market for a road bike with bigger tyres to make it more versatile and allow for more off road use"

Engineer

"Right so we need to make hybrids with drop handle bars"

Marketing

"Yes that's exactly what we need. But you are never use that term again, ever. I'll invent a new type of biking and give this new type of bike a sexy name"

So really then I could take the spare On-One Inbred 29er frame I have. Put some drop bars on it, thinner tyres and essentially I have a gravel bike / CX bike what won't be much slower. Looking at the Giant Revolt from another thread, it looks like a 29er with drops and thinner tyres on. Even the review pretty much said as much.

^^^^^

Give him credit - he knows his audience.

Yes, it's a drop bar hybrid. Of course, one of the defining features of a hybrid is flat bars, so not unreasonable to give it a different name?

Yep - those Frenchies had the right idea

So really then I could take the spare On-One Inbred 29er frame I have. Put some drop bars on it, thinner tyres and essentially I have a gravel bike / CX bike

Yes, it's a drop bar hybrid

5thElefant - Member

Mountain bikes were just a passing fad

[img] [/img]

Nice pic, third bike along - is that an Ibis ?

Fortunately, a friend's drop-bar hybrid conversion came to the rescue...!

I'm in the process of converting my cheap hybrid to drop bars - a second time. First time I didnt' want to shell out for mini-V brakes so had some cheap cantis, which was stupid really. Planet X had the mini Vs for £15 for four recently, so I got those and some light 32c tyres.

I'll finish it when I can find the LH Sora shifter I know I have somewhere. However riding position so far is absolutely fantastic, looks like it's going to work a treat with a 'relaxed' position I never knew could be so good.

Yes, it's a drop bar hybrid. Of course, one of the defining features of a hybrid is flat bars, so not unreasonable to give it a different name?

Lets not pretend for a moment that I'm feel strongly about this

But in my mind a genesis Croix de fer and the like are a drop bar hybrids

We have the term flat bar road bike and flat bar tourer

Certainly "drop bar hybrid" is a description that more people will recognise than "gravel bike" or "adventure bike"

But I'm mainly chuckling becuause its a dirty word on here for many people. "Like my new rigid 29er with thin tyres" 😉

apart from a shorter ETT to accommodate drop bars a gravel grinder could be described as a rigid specific 29er.

apart from a shorter ETT to accommodate drop bars a gravel grinder could be described as a rigid specific 29er.

THIS is a rigid specific 29er (albeit with flat bars): http://www.questadventure.co.uk/genesisfortitudeadventure

And to think people say this forum is populated by nerds!

Bit short in the Headtube that Fortitude, I know the general Gravel Grinder blurb is sort of up to 700x40 tyres...but why not allow for that bit bigger? The length is already there in the forks and the chainstays.

With disc brakes there are no longer concerns about brake clearance with bigger tyres.

I know the general Gravel Grinder blurb is sort of up to 700x40 tyres...but why not allow for that bit bigger?

Exactly why my 'gravel' / 'like MTBs used to be (but with drop bars)' bike IS a Fortitude with drops

Makes perfect sense to me

Bump because I thought this deserved more credit that it received 😀

[img] [/img]<

I just like the way his mate on the right of the photo is looking away disgusted at his Enduro wear. I bet he's thinking 'If only he'd worn Rapha'.

@macb

Bit short in the Headtube that Fortitude, I know the general Gravel Grinder blurb is sort of up to 700x40 tyres...but why not allow for that bit bigger? The length is already there in the forks and the chainstays.

With disc brakes there are no longer concerns about brake clearance with bigger tyres.

Scroll up on this page and there is your answer, the Giant Revolt. It easily takes 2.15" tires upfront, 2.0" at the back. Now that short headtube makes sense too, because you can fit a rigid semi-29er fork (A2C of 430 mm), have plenty of room for wide and big tires without messing up a proper dropbar geometry too much.

To me the Revolt is a stroke of genius (my compliments to that design team) and should have been groundbreaking but sadly we've ended up with either beefier roadracers with 32 mm tires (GT Grade/Spec Diverge), beefier CX-racers (Niner RLT) on 40 mm tires or 27.5" centerpull braking randonneurs on 42 mm tires.

That C'dale Slate does stir things up though, and maybe someday someone will build that dropbar Lauf forked randonneur too!

Tested the Slate and didn't quite get it. Until I was climbing on a short steep gravel road with loads of grip out of the saddle. Was very comfy on the cobbles too. Rides like a very comfy roadbike. Fits 26" MTB tyres as well as road tyres on a 28/29" rim.

Too expensive.

Hydraulic brakes only come on very expensive carbon road bikes and I wanted an affordable alu frame.

Got a 2nd hand hybrid (bmc ac01 105) with hydraulic brakes and converted it to drop bars (ST-RS685/BR-RS785). love it.

Before

[img] [/img]

After
[img] [/img]

[img] [/img]

That sir is a stroke of genius

The gravel bike is a genre that isn't quite there yet. At the moment it's a slightly fattened CX bike. It meeds to get fatter.

It has the potential to become the most popular type of bike IMO.

Once you eliminate all the actual and wannabe racers, there's a large pool of people who want a bike that gets them "out there", a bike you can ride miles to the trail, follow it across a mountain, come out the other side, and then ride home. A bike for scenery before Strava.

It really is a reversion to the days when bikes were ridden on all surfaces, and the popular wheel sizes were 28" with wide rims and tyres up to 2".

To my mind the ideal bike looks like one of these.

[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5265/5599640663_7f07f5e279_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5265/5599640663_7f07f5e279_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]
(Frank White about 1900. Second round Australia ride.)

Early 29ers with steep HAs (for an mtb) are ideal for conversion. If you have on old Scandal frame hanging in your shed, then you have close to the ideal bike. (Ideal being a TD-1 🙂 )

With low pressure supple 2.35" tyres on a bike used for this sort of riding, you don't really need tread. A slick will do, and that makes the road transits quieter. I like Schwalbe Big Apples for my rides.

@epicyclo
Something a little like this?

[img] [/img]

Or this?

[img] [/img]

isn't it just a skinny wheeled 29r HT? Unless of course you want the drop bars on it?

It has the potential to become the most popular type of bike IMO.

Once you eliminate all the actual and wannabe racers, there's a large pool of people who want a bike that gets them "out there", a bike you can ride miles to the trail, follow it across a mountain, come out the other side, and then ride home. A bike for scenery before Strava.

An interesting perspective, most I know who do that are on beat up old CX type bikes single speed with beards. They don't tend to be the ones who drop the cash on new bikes 😉

busta - Member
@epicyclo
Something a little like this?

I've been building gravel bikes all my life - I'm not so much a mountain biker as a mountain wanderer. 🙂

I was going to post a few pics of my more recent versions, but realised there's far too many.

Basically you can't go wrong if you get a fat enough compliant tyre to be able to run a low pressure, and then find a frame that will a) fit it, b) has close to CX bike geometry, and c) clearance for your knackers.

It could well be that 650B will prove to be the answer because a 2.35" tyre on that is about the same as a 700c with a 40mm tyre.

mikewsmith - Member
...An interesting perspective, most I know who do that are on beat up old CX type bikes single speed with beards. They don't tend to be the ones who drop the cash on new bikes

Beards and singlespeeds? Sounds familiar. 🙂

Then they'll be the guys snapping up all the unfashionable old school 29er frames for peanuts and building their own mix of a gravel bike. It can be done quite cheaply and you can produce a quality ride.

I've got a recipe you can have. 🙂

Nowhere near my thing epicyclo but more just that it's hard to become the biggest/most popular sector in the bike world if you don't ever buy many bikes 😉

mikewsmith - Member
Nowhere near my thing epicyclo but more just that it's hard to become the biggest/most popular sector in the bike world if you don't ever buy many bikes

I think it'll be like fatbikes. The industry comes aboard after years of various people kludging their own versions together, and suddenly they'll be everywhere.

Then the industry will invent a new wheel size and modern trail geometry (again).

Once you eliminate all the actual and wannabe racers, there's a large pool of people who want a bike that gets them "out there", a bike you can ride miles to the trail, follow it across a mountain, come out the other side, and then ride home. A bike for scenery before Strava.

This is my hybrid flat bar gravel adventure ATB. Apart from the wheel diameter and brakes, it's probably quite comparable with a 20 year old mtb.

[IMG] [/IMG]

I also have a beard and a few singlespeeds.

BTW the easy way to get dropbars on your MTB is to Use the Satori Bullbar*, aka [url= http://www.satoribike.com/pro.php?m=d&pid=33&cid=18&f=2 ]Smooth Drop[/url].

There is a version that has the same diameter as an mtb bar so you can use your levers etc and don't need to go to road levers. Then if you want to do gnarly mtb stuff, you can simply switch bars, about a 3-5 minute job.

Ditto if you want to go promenading, simply switch the bar upright. 🙂

It's not a deep drop, but that is unnecessary on a gravel bike anyway.

*[url= http://www.londonbicycleworkshop.com/3371/products/one23-bull-25-4-handlebar.aspx ]Also branded as One23 Minotaur or Bull bar[/url].

(With the changes in name it would be worth checking that they still take mtb size levers - seeing as this is not mentioned in the ads)

Example:

[url= https://farm1.staticflickr.com/282/19038652426_48def1ee1b_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm1.staticflickr.com/282/19038652426_48def1ee1b_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

^ Like it.

I've posted this pic before, a similar set up that was a bit of a revelation when riding it during a road tour and a few rides in the UK before that. Works so well to cover any ground apart from wet, techy off-road but a swap of tyres sorts that. Rigid 29er, Big Apples, H-bar with MTB controls. The Fortitude came from a similar sort of use/idea.

[img] [/img]

Has repack rider posted yet?

More thoughts:

In many ways the so called gravel bike is a reversion to the British offroad riding tradition, formalised by the formation of the RSF in 1955.

The mistake that organisation made was to eschew technical discussions whereas it could have advanced the technology at a time when Britain had a thriving bike manufacturing tradition - all it needed was a push from an group of enthusiasts like the RSF.

Some UK manufacturers sold bikes built specially for offroad conditions to the colonies in the 1930s - 1950s. Lighter versions would have been perfect for offroad riding here and probably would have sold well. I've managed to find most of the components to build a replica of a colonial special, so that may get built this year so I can compare it. (The Raleigh Bomber used the same frame style).

Here's one destined for USA & Canada but also sold worldwide (1938):

[url= https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5238/14117029366_8c2b2a2e81_b.jp g" target="_blank">https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5238/14117029366_8c2b2a2e81_b.jp g"/> [/img][/url]

BTW the easy way to get dropbars on your MTB is to Use the Satori Bullbar*, aka Smooth Drop.

I'm interested in that - but it still has only one hand position (at least, with access to brakes). For me one of the main advantages to road drops is that you can ride around on hoods or drops.

I'm planning a switchable bar system on my Salsa, but it'll involve a complete swap of brakes, shifters, cables, bars and all, because that's the only way to do it quickly.

That Genesis is a Fargo in disguise......

molgrips - Member
I'm interested in that - but it still has only one hand position (at least, with access to brakes). For me one of the main advantages to road drops is that you can ride around on hoods or drops.

I don't find it a great disadvantage, but it would be nice to have the option. However it is a shallow drop, so you may find less need to vary the position.

I would buy a bar that offered the option though - so long as I can use mtb levers which I regard as superior to road levers. I never tape my tops, so mtb levers work well for me.

epicyclo - Member

Once you eliminate all the actual and wannabe racers, there's a large pool of people who want a bike that gets them "out there", a bike you can ride miles to the trail, follow it across a mountain, come out the other side, and then ride home. A bike for scenery before Strava.

Absolutely.
About time too.

In the 70's, there was a much greater emphasis on function over image.

Most of Ballantine's bible extoles the versatility of the high quality touring/all round bike.
In fact, most of my old cycling books seem to give equal prominence to general leisure riding [i]and [/i]the racing side.

Even into the 80's, many manufacturers seemed to offer loads of versatile bikes.
I had a gas pipe British Eagle 'tourer' - big tyre clearances.
Wide drops on a quill stem, quick and easy to adjust.
Rack for camping in the Lakes or strip it and stick knobblies on for playing around in the woods.

I'm glad they're back.

Great thread, btw.

there's a large pool of people who want a bike that gets them "out there", a bike you can ride miles to the trail, follow it across a mountain, come out the other side, and then ride home.

Any XC orientated middle of the range 29er aluminium hardtail would be perfect for that e.g. Trek Superfly.

epicyclo - Member
Once you eliminate all the actual and wannabe racers, there's a large pool of people who want a bike that gets them "out there", a bike you can ride miles to the trail, follow it across a mountain, come out the other side, and then ride home. A bike for scenery before Strava.

My version with mudguards.

[img] [/img]

GT Grade for the commute and tracks, just a bit slower over the rough stuff than an MTB.

Calibre Dune for mud plugging and grinning 😀

This is one of my local gravel routes, it's a mix of b roads, gravel tracks and Sustrans paths, i live in a pretty flat area so no big climbs to speak of. I have ridden this route on MTB's in the past but it seems less boring on the Vaya.

[url= https://www.strava.com/activities/370133512 ]Strava[/url]

Anyone else like to share a route?