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Depends what you mean by sustainable most riders with a bit of fitness can do a 30min 10mile TT on a road bike.
I guess that "most riders" needs defining - if we're talking "most of the sporty riders who ride as members of a club and/or compete regularly", then I guess yeah, probably many of them could. If we're talking "most riders" as a percentage of ANYONE you see riding a bike, I don't think many of them could - as an ex-MAMIL, I don't think I could, certainly not for half an hour - I don't know if I ever did a ride of any length at that pace, even when I used to cycle a bit.
It’d be better if I had my registration tattooed on my arm
Not really as it would unlikely to be picked up by cameras.
Personally I think they should consider extending the idea of registration tabards to also pedestrians.
Imagine how many they could catch in the process of illegal activities. And I don't mean jumping pedestrian red lights, I mean stuff like muggings, murder, never mind loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing, coughing without due care and attention, walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area, or walking around with an offensive wife.
As many say, it’s a load of rubbish, at a time when the tories are looking at scything the civil service, are they really going to bring in a whole raft of legislation and regulation, a licensing department, etc for probably 100 million bikes that are in the UK.
They'd probably use a private company for the registration and enforcement given half a chance...
walking on the cracks in the pavement, lock him up!!!!!!
Its just a "look Squirrel" thing to get the knickers in a twist of a bunch of middle aged men whilst the clown show in Westminster sneak something else through with out the public noticing.
20 on the flat is easily acheivable on a road bike
Aren't e-bikes limited to 15.5mph?
Aren’t e-bikes limited to 15.5mph?
Only legal ones. The guy who passed me yesterday was well over 20mph and not pedalling.
I hadn't realised we'd run out of dog whistles. Imagine being the poor civil servants having to deal with this nonsense.
We all know that who we're on about here are the 16 year old drug runners who seem to be able to travel at a steady 20+ mph on a stolen Specialized hardtail, on the back wheel, simultaneously typing a WhatsApp message on their phone and also eating a Greggs sausage roll.
Instead of demonising them, the government should find a way to harness this unique multitasking ability. This could maybe sort out the productivity problem outside London that Liz was rattling on about
Two birds with one stone and all that...
Its the woke left lawyers wot done it. We used to be able to hav a go at the forriegns but we can't know coz its rasict. We hav to hate sumfing so bleedin cycists it is.
The 'no country in the world does this' argument isn't a very strong one - people in favour of the thing will just consider it an opportunity to break new ground with a world first.
Does ANY country in the world require cyclists to have numnber plates and mandatory insurance?
The 'fast' e-Bikes you see in Europe have them on the back, under the saddle. Assume you need insurance too. I 'borrowed' one from an office I was working at in NL to go to another office. They had two to loan out to whoever needed them, and I had to sign it out and back in again which suggests there was some kind of insurance arrangement.
Great fun it was to - massive heavy town/Dutch bike thing that could do 43kph with relative ease but absolutely no more. Once the assist ran out it was like hitting a moving brick wall. It had 4-pot XT brakes too, useful for bring that lot to a stop in a hurry when ridden by some hooligan who's never been on an e-bike before (ahem)...
The Swiss tried a variation of this(velo vignette) and abandoned it about 2012 due to the cost of maintaining the scheme. I was working out there for a number of years and was stopped by the police a couple of times to check if I had the sticker. They would set mini roadblocks up on cycle paths and check if you had registered your bike and also if you were maintaining your bike. I was given a talking to because my bike was too dirty 🙂
It's a stupid idea and will cost a fortune to implement.
The dangerous thing about putting this nonsense out there is that it normalises the othering of people riding bicycles. It confirms every gammon's view that we're interlopers who shouldn't be on the road. I've been run off the road by a white van driver once and this will only make it more likely to happen again.
Came here for the humblebrags. Wasn't disappointed.
The illegal ebikes are probably part pushing this thinking from Gov. Easy to spot, battery, loads of black tape around frame & battery, pushing x mph - crush them bikes and leave the rest of us alone
The cretinocracy in full swing.
Since when has the current government had anything but a stupid idea?
Off to ride my bike and put up with the increase in close passes I get every time some idiot thinks its time to vilify cyclists.
never mind loitering with intent to use a pedestrian crossing, coughing without due care and attention, walking in a loud shirt in a built-up area, or walking around with an offensive wife.
Classic NtNoN reference, bravo! 😂
I can just see the Pinarello and Rapha crowd spending £200 on the aero number plate board and custom plate "Cyc1e" and their matching leather Rapha licence holder though, so many new marketing opportunities...
Mind you, at the very least it's given the cycling-"activists" on Twitter who're forever posting daily videos of "Look what happened to ME today" a bit of breather, and they can rant about something else, so there's that.
Only good thing would be if we could have personalised plates.
I think I'd have D1E 5HAPP5 or 7UCK T0R1E5
For me the most astonishing aspect of the proposals isn't their obvious stupidity but the fact that they come from a transport minister - the very person you might reasonably expect would want to do everything possible to encourage cycling. It is as bizarre as a health minister suggesting that hospitals should be forced to allow smoking in their canteens.
Although having said that among the cretinous proposals there is one that I would struggle to disagree with. IMO it is hard to argue that cyclists shouldn't have to comply with the same speed restrictions that apply to other road users.
Yes I enjoy the thrill of attempting to trigger a speed limit display but there is no reason to assume that it is safe for cyclists to travel at speeds faster than cars, buses, or HGV. If a speed limit of 20mph is in place for the protection of pedestrians there is no reason to assume that a cyclist traveling at 30mph would be able to stop any quicker than a car - especially as it is obviously likely to be downhill.
Bringing cyclists into line with other road users with regards to speed limits would make practically no difference in most cases, and I suspect that most people who cycle probably aren't even aware that speed limits cannot be currently enforced on cyclists, so it would make very little difference to cycling.
Edit: There would be no need for speedometers btw imo, it could be just the responsibility of the cyclist to ensure that they didn't exceed the limit, which is most cases would be very easy to do.
I would wear my first speeding ticket as a badge of honour. Anyone else try to get a sad face out of the “this is your speed” electric signs!?
29 in a 20 zone last week. I probably shouldn't be pleased with myself, but meh.
Edit: There would be no need for speedometers btw imo, it could be just the responsibility of the cyclist to ensure that they didn’t exceed the limit, which is most cases would be very easy to do.
I don't know how its easy without a speedo. I can do a steady 17mph on the road without bursting myself. Doesn't take much of a gradient and/or favourable wind to put that over 20, (see above) but without a speedo how can I be brought to book for that?
"Excuse me sir, are you aware how fast you were cycling?"
"Er, no officer"
We used to be able to hav a go at the forriegns but we can’t know coz its rasict. We hav to hate sumfing so bleedin cycists it is.
The dangerous thing about putting this nonsense out there is that it normalises the othering of people riding bicycles
First they csme for the foreigners....
Sick of governments demonising groups to divert attention from the fact that the problem exist because the government has failed to do its job properly.
I don’t know how its easy without a speedo
Most cyclists can't "easily" exceed the vehicle speed limits. If you have a problem then it's up to you to have the technical means to know what speed you are doing imo. After all you seem to know that you did 29mph last week, which sounds pretty precise.
I was trying to work out the logistics of registration tabards. (I wear a backpack to work most days, which would cover a tabard. If I wore it through the winter it would fall apart quickly and I'd need to have a few so that I always had a washed one that didn't stink of sweat and road grime. Maybe companies could make gravel tabards and enduro tabards That sort of thing.)
Then I though that the tattoo suggestion was good, but it would need to be on a shaved part of the back of the head. But....helmet.
This leads me to compulsory helmets, with reg numbers printed on them, maybe sticking up like a sandwich board.
I say Grant Shapps needs a hoof in the slats.
Bringing cyclists into line with other road users with regards to speed limits would make practically no difference in most cases, and I suspect that most people who cycle probably aren’t even aware that speed limits cannot be currently enforced on cyclists, so it would make very little difference to cycling.
So why waste a load of money implementing legislation for something that doesn't actually cause a tangible problem and is only achievable for a minority of people on bikes? Sure, I'd agree if bikes were killing thousands a year like cars but they're not, it's a total waste of time that would just widen the divide
Schrodingers cyclist - simultaneously holding up motorists who deserve priority whilst also recklessly breaking the speed limit
Personally I think they should consider extending the idea of registration tabards to also pedestrians.
Reminds me of a 2000AD/Judge Dredd storyline where everyone was opting to have all their facial features standardised so they couldn't be recognised.
So the Justice Department passed a law requiring ID numbers front and centre of the forehead...
I think the most effective way to stop this sort of shit from people like Shapps is to engage in the same culture war nonsense that they do. Accuse him of hating poor folks or kids. Accuse him of targeting minorities who can't afford public transport or a car. Accuse him of defending pollution, accuse him of allowing people to get fat behind the wheel of a car.
Facts are like water off a ducks back to these stupid suggestions.
I'm pretty sure speed limits apply to cyclists as things stand you just can't enforce it with speed cameras. surely it'd be cheaper just to pay for more coppers though!
Most cyclists can’t “easily” exceed the vehicle speed limits. If you have a problem then it’s up to you to have the technical means to know what speed you are doing imo. After all you seem to know that you did 29mph last week, which sounds pretty precise..
It was one of those roadside speed sensing signs.
And I have no problem with the concept of breaking the speed limit on my bike, because I'm a dick.
Whilst you lot are moaning, I'm getting ahead of the curve.
Already registered my personalised plates:
RE 81 ITE
H1 VIS
K111 PED
Whilst he is a massive bellend - with the rise of illegal e-bikes the government is falling behind on legislation.
Maybe if they did something about them, put in decent infrastructure that we actually could use then a lot of this would go away. The only downside I can see is they & the media couldn't demonise cyclists.
I think the most important thing to remember has this has taken the attention away from the cost of living crisis so therefore it's a Tory win
Whilst he is a massive bellend – with the rise of illegal e-bikes the government is falling behind on legislation.
Same with e-scooters. There's a few half-arsed trials going on, some heavily geofenced and speed limited restrictions in place to make them as impractical as possible but nothing of much substance going through.
It'd be an absolute revolution in micro-mobility and there are already thousands of the bloody things in use illegally anyway. The police aren't able to crack down on those so speeding cyclists would no doubt come under the same banner of "no problems, no point doing anything". But either way, his announcements today (which seem to have surprised and confused even DfT) is just another dead cat to hide how little use he actually is and how little has been done.
"I'm a keen cyclist, I'm very proud of the big expansion in the number of miles being cycled. I'm not attracted to the bureaucracy of registration plates. That would go to far."
Shapps in The Times, apparently.
Different story in The Daily Heil.
Anyway, he's a Tory, ATAB now and it's not worth listening to their BS. Better to spend your energies trying to convince any marginal or 'scared of Labour/Lib Dem' type voters you know to vote the ****s out at the next opportunity.
Melissa Kite (a journalist who writes for the Mail and Spectator) is another one pushing for this with her inflammatory anti-cycling articles. .
And, surprise surprise, has been on Question Time.
The ‘fast’ e-Bikes you see in Europe have them on the back, under the saddle. Assume you need insurance too. I ‘borrowed’ one from an office I was working at in NL to go to another office. They had two to loan out to whoever needed them, and I had to sign it out and back in again which suggests there was some kind of insurance arrangement.
But aren't they effectively covered under some sort of "electric moped" classification? So almost a motorvehicle?
I’m pretty sure speed limits apply to cyclists as things stand you just can’t enforce it with speed cameras. surely it’d be cheaper just to pay for more coppers though!
Nope, they were written out of the legislation around speeding in the 30's or 40's IIRC.
Can only be done for “cycling furiously”. Which is almost impossible to prove or prosecute.
20 on the flat is easily acheivable on a road bike
Is it?!? I’m gonna say it’s only sustainable for a pretty small percentage of cyclists.
Yep tbh a mere 23 mph is going some and Joe public isn't hopping on his BSO and hitting that.
(Unless he's on his unrestricted ebike 🙂 )
Joe public isn’t hopping on his BSO and hitting that
not on a plastic tyred "full suss" that cost £150...
But I maintain that someone who partakes in some sort of exercise could get an appropriately geared and tyred road bike up to and exceeding 20mph for a short period of time - like for 30 seconds or so anearobically, but without completely exhausting themselves.
Having the stamina, strength and technique for a 30 minute time trial at the same speed, is a different kettle of fish.
quick google suggests 210 to 220 watts for 20mph. On the flat, and probably assumes a skin tight outfit.
journalcolumnist who writes for the Mail and Spectator
There's no such thing as a Mail/Spectator journalist, just people who write opinions for content.
I recently had a (friendly) argument with a police officer about this. He stopped me to say I must have been cycling at more than 20 in a 20 mph zone. I tole him I was flattered, but there was no way I was doing that speed on the bike I was riding (a Whippet), that I could do more than 20 but I'd know about it as it would require so much effort.
After a bit of back and forth I showed him what Strava said I'd been doing. Another pause where I explained how to convert kph to mph, and he agreed I'd been doing 17-18 mph.
Anyway, back to Shapps: what a twunt. And proven liar.
But I maintain that someone who partakes in some sort of exercise could get an appropriately geared and tyred road bike up to and exceeding 20mph for a short period of time
I think this is where it comes down to definitions. The 20mph is with regards to 20mph limit areas and Shapps or whatever name he is using today saying "cyclists can easily exceed those".
Whilst I would agree with you I wouldnt classify that as easy if you can only achieve it for a short period of time and requires deliberate effort or favourable conditions. So number of people doing it are going to be rather low and hence begs the question whether its worth all this number plates and other rubbish.
So number of people doing it are going to be rather low and hence begs the question whether its worth all this number plates and other rubbish.
absolutely agree its rubbish. and also agree that
this is where it comes down to definitions.
however, I feel a lot of people here are applying our elitist cycling bias to definitions of what counts as a long time, and a long way.
A 30min/10 mile TT may be a "short" event by our standards - whether we are athletes or armchair fans - but to your average urban commuter/sunday pub tourer those are a big ride. It would be like me entering an Audax and moaning that I couldnt maintain my FTP all the way around.
Just a dead cat story.
God I hate this "government"!!!
^ is it to avoid talking about just how much raw sewage water companies* pumped into rivers and seas yesterday?
*significant Tory donors and by that, Tories themselves ...and ATAB
Imagine being Transport Minister and thinking the country to copy when it comes to cycling is North Korea rather than the Netherlands
…how much raw sewage…
https://twitter.com/withorpe/status/1558122110597431296?s=21
BBC World at One had quite a long piece on this cycling non-story. Nothing new in it. Was quite balanced though. Nothing on raw sewage.
But aren’t they effectively covered under some sort of “electric moped” classification? So almost a motorvehicle?
Yes, they are. Hence the plates.
is it to avoid talking about
No, the whole “dead cat” thing is a neat story we tell ourselves, but that would entail the Tory party being conniving and cunning. Shappis just a tool, he can no more be conniving or cunning than I can perform open heart surgery.
they say things like this becasue it’s the first thing that comes into his head when asked by the DM, which is why he gave the Times a completely different answer.
He’s just stupid
I say grant shapps is a moron.
It's all just more loud, distracting noises to keep their other activities out of the public eye. Except there's always the risk that Grant keeps his current job in the next reshuffle and then has to follow through, Flexing the Tory majority in order to keep favour with the spiteful, dwindling blue rinsers that he's promised this unenforceable bollox to...
I'm not putting ****ing number plates on my bikes, and more importantly I don't believe the police have the resources or inclination to bully bicycle users for the sake of placating DM reading biddies...
He does need putting back in his box, someone put him on QT opposite Chris Boardman please...
He does need putting back in his box, someone put him on QT opposite Chris Boardman please…
Boardman wisely refuses to go on programmes like that although how he manages to maintain his patience when asked about it for soundbites is beyond me. I'd have sighed and called Shapps a f-ing idiot within the first 5 seconds, Boardman manages to be so diplomatic and so professional!
Imagine being Transport Minister and thinking the country to copy when it comes to cycling is North Korea rather than the Netherlands
That gave me a sad chuckle, as it's true. I also liked the phrase "cretinocracy" further up the page.
DEPORT ALL CYCLISTS TO RWANDA!!!!
Just had a quick read up about Rwanda on Wikepedia - sounds alright better than the UK right now. If Grant pays for the plane I think I'd take him up on the offer
I also liked the phrase “cretinocracy” further up the page.
+1.
No, the whole “dead cat” thing is a neat story we tell ourselves, but that would entail the Tory party being conniving and cunning. Shappis just a tool, he can no more be conniving or cunning than I can perform open heart surgery.
Yes which is how him, Truss, Dories etc get those jobs - Confidence:Intelligence ratio all biased towards being useful front-people. The conniving and cunning goes on where we can't see it, in the think tanks and pressure groups who pull their strings. That's why they're all lost when questioned, none of it comes from themselves.
I agree with you though, it'd be a dead cat if it was the odd thing here and there. Currently there's so much of it all continually happening that there's no way it's calculated, it's all just their mess among substitutes for policy or control. The tory supporter papers are the only ones being opportunistic with the stories.
Since when would anyone worth their salt listen and action anything G.S. wants ? (Bear in mind I do not follow politics)
Though just another 🤡 in the lineup imo.
Rather than number plates, licensed tabards or tattoos, isn't the obvious solution to have every cyclist chipped. A bit like cats & dogs currently but with GPS tracking as well, so that every time we jump a red light, exceed 20 or mow down a granny, we can be easily nabbed..?
You would have to report to the Council for Safe Cycling offices (G4S) once a week to get the unit checked, data downloaded and the battery recharged, of course.
I agree with you though, it’d be a dead cat if it was the odd thing here and there. Currently there’s so much of it all continually happening that there’s no way it’s calculated, it’s all just their mess among substitutes for policy or control.
I do wonder if there's an element of distracting from another 2 days of train strikes (tomorrow and Saturday which means the Friday and much of Sunday will basically be screwed as well).
I mean, God forbid that Shapps should be asked anything about that! Now he won't be, there's 2, maybe 3 days of media time in this story.
How to win at being Transport Secretary when it's just been announced that this year was the worst on record for rail reliability.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/aug/16/uk-has-least-reliable-year-for-rail-travel-since-records-began
Oh, and every item of outer clothing will have to have a yellow bicycle wheel stitched or embroidered onto it in a prominent position, to prove to the grateful public you've been chipped and are under scrutiny.
that there’s no way it’s calculated
Indeed, as @binners would say, they can't be trusted to run a bath, or be in charge of even putting the bins out. Read an article a while back that was written (apparently by a standing Tory MP) bemoaning the state of his own party. His summary was that most of the intake from as far back as 2010 have literally no ideas beyond parroting sub-Thatcher rhetoric that's plays well with the Eastbourne set, and have no real comprehension that they could loose their jobs. he was laughing about the image that most of the left seem to have of them that they are some sort of ruthless machine operating to make a few cronies richer, when in reality in his opinion most are just collecting a (generous) wage while doing as little as possible. One recent intake even asked his constituency board what made them select him, the answer was: "The lovely things you said about your wife"
Shapps is just the 21st C version of the Cones Hotline, and look how well the Tories did after they got to that stage last time
If a speed limit of 20mph is in place for the protection of pedestrians there is no reason to assume that a cyclist traveling at 30mph would be able to stop any quicker than a car – especially as it is obviously likely to be downhill.
Except the small matter of physics.
Bringing cyclists into line with other road users with regards to speed limits would make practically no difference in most cases, and I suspect that most people who cycle probably aren’t even aware that speed limits cannot be currently enforced on cyclists, so it would make very little difference to cycling.
Edit: There would be no need for speedometers btw imo, it could be just the responsibility of the cyclist to ensure that they didn’t exceed the limit, which is most cases would be very easy to do.
So pointless, as mentioned and "easy to do"?
How many football fields per second is 20 mph? Or is that measured in penalty boxes or some other arbitrary measurement I have absolutely no frame of reference for?
Applying car speeding "logic" would we get the fabled 10% plus 2 tolerance?
As wind resistance goes up with the square of speed, finding the massive amount of extra Wattage to sustain 24mph would be well beyond an even larger majority of cyclists - so apart from downhills it would be almost totally self policed by the laws of physics anyway.
Utter, utter bellend, these politicians don't live in the real world!
I'm going to play devil's advocate for a moment......
Given the main objective is to ensure that cyclists have a complete, justified and absolute right to share the roads - both legally and morally that is unequivocal and devoid of a 'but....' from the knuckle draggers we must share the planet with.......what would the world look like if we had to have insurance, 'road tax' and identification?
Yes it would be a hassle - but most of us manage to get beyond that to get behind a wheel of a car.
I'm not saying I want it, but I would rather like a world without 'those' comments from the opposition.The ones used as an excuse for their true predudices. To be able to say - "**** you, you twunts - you wanted me taxed, plated and insured - so here I am - now get the **** out of my way!".
self policed by the laws of physics anyway.
See the ‘laws’ don’t apply to Tories or so they like to believe.
Yes it would be a hassle – but most of us manage to get beyond that to get behind a wheel of a car.
The annual expense and **** on is why we choose not to have a car and have bikes instead. The idea can get in the ****ing sea along with the ****ing morons that think this populist shit up.
Can't police the use of e-scooters, which are not legal. How the hell will they police me on the hills or at 10yo on a pumtrack, or a 4yo on the Sunday morning pedal?
Can’t police the use of e-scooters, which are not legal. How the hell will they police me on the hills or at 10yo on a pumtrack, or a 4yo on the Sunday morning pedal?
Indeed - it would be pointless...apart from removing a fake excuse for a reason for gammons to hate. The same gammons that want this are also the ones that leave comments about police involved in stopping motorists speeding or drink drive campaigns that should be redeployed to prevert 'real crimes'.
But this is about bike use on roads....not you in the hills or at a pumptrack.
How to win at being Transport Secretary when it’s just been announced that this year was the worst on record for rail reliability.
Hmm. How they really win is by protecting donor's profits. They exist to direct tax revenue into private companies who return it with donations that keep them in power. They don't GAF about train prices or reliability.
he was laughing about the image that most of the left seem to have of them that they are some sort of ruthless machine operating to make a few cronies richer, when in reality in his opinion most are just collecting a (generous) wage while doing as little as possible.
Most probably are but there's a few who do know what they're doing. Johnson's one of them, he isn't stupid. I mean he's no genius either but that old Eton boys network can be worked to keep them rich and it has a pretty bad knock-on effect for the rest of us.
Yes it would be a hassle – but most of us manage to get beyond that to get behind a wheel of a car.
You have hit the nail on the head there - it would indeed be "a hassle".
Which absolutely guarantees that there would be less people cycling than there are at present, and less cycle journeys made.
Is this really what a transport minister should be working towards in this age of congested roads, pollution, and energy/fuel shortages?
Never mind the increased costs to other government departments such as the Department of Health due to rising cases of strokes, type 2, etc, etc.
Never mind the increased costs to other government departments such as the Department of Health due to rising cases of strokes, type 2, etc, etc.
The main increased cost would be to the Government department that had to run and manage all of this! It's totally unworkable.
Is this really what a transport minister should be working towards in this age of congested roads, pollution, and energy/fuel shortages?
Not to mention the obesity crisis crippling the nhs
Can only be done for “cycling furiously”. Which is almost impossible to prove or prosecute.
Anybody else want a conviction for cycling furiously or is it just me?
This is what Baroness Vere of Norbiton
Parliamentary Under-Secretary (Department for Transport) had to say in answer to a written question less than a year:
The Government has no plans to introduce a mandatory registration scheme for cycle ownership. The costs of doing so would outweigh the benefits, and this would deter many people from cycling particularly if cyclists (including children) had to cover the costs of such a system.
There would be many practical difficulties too: registration plates would need to be large enough to be seen by cameras and other road users, and there is not generally enough space on bikes to allow for this.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2021-11-01.HL3569.h
I don't know how effective cameras would be in recognising the registration number on a creased tabard of a bent over cyclist riding on the drops.
But I do know that Grant Shapps publicly outing himself as knuckle-dragging halfwit must have made Mick Lynch chuckle today.