[Closed] Graded trails at trail centres

You must be teh awsumz...

*Swoons*

Who cares what colour the sign is? If you don't like it, just ride DH trails or find some natural riding which gives you what you want. Your opinion of what makes someone an "expert" is completely irrelevant.

I'd expect an "expert" MTB'er to be capable of cleaning technical climbs, rocky rooty off camber descents and vertical drop-offs up to 6' with gap jumps not tabletops of about 10', as mentioned the kind of features that are on the Gisburn forst DH track

Mostly what you are talking about can be found all over the place.

I feel all tingly

Sorry about that, binners. Use the cream as per the instructions and it should clear up in a while.

I thought I would get some hate for this.
My intention is not to put myself across as some kind of rad rider, but to call for an increase in the levels of skills being labelled 'expert'. It shouldn't (IMO) just be left to the DH courses to include anything that isn't rollable. Is that all we aspire to?

The skills of MTB'ers lags behind those in other comparable sports such as motocross or BMX, i

Only if you think that to be an expert MTBer means riding groomed tracks with gap jumps, tabletops, etc. That has very little to do with the sort of MTBing a lot of people do. As a friend of mine said with very little tact, if you want to ride tabletops and berms #&$@ off back to the BMX park. 😉

I feel all tingly

Joe Bloggs will buy an MTB bike from Halfords and happily ride a trail centre, they need to be kept safe as most dont read signs or dont think they are aimed at them. Joe blogs generally doesnt buy a BMX bike and show up at a skatepark / local DJs / street.

My local trail has tame 'black' sections with warning signs, average riders try them, skid the cr4p out of it or take a line around the features causing the trailbuilders many headaches.

Much the same in snowsports. A Black run may be classified as that due to a steep icy section, but the rest of it being fairly benign. And plenty of people would claim they had skiied / boarded a black run, but in reality all they have done is minced down on their edges (or backside).

Trail center grading is most likely done erring on the side of caution - ie. less chance of litigation for the trail owners by badging a trail as 'black/red' as opposed to 'blue', especially as a trail centre is often where less experienced riders will be riding (who in turn benefit from the warning that they should be aware of a feature that may/will challenge them - better ride aware of a potential hazard than ignorant to what may lay ahead, a 1 ft drop may not seem much to the awsumz, but to a novice could appear a cliff).

It shouldn't (IMO) just be left to the DH courses to include anything that isn't rollable.

what grade is your bridge? (question for the OP)

Errr...Orange?

more like this?
[img] [/img]

because, while my ex was a mountain biker and would happily go to trail centres with me, and could ride all day, she would see "Black" and correctly guess that while there was little danger of death, she could quite easily get out of her depth, and maybe come off, and maybe even hurt herself, not badly perhaps, but enough for her to give a second thought to what she was getting into.

That is what the classifications are for, to give the inexperienced a heads up, not to make nominally "OK" riders to feel "Teh Rad"

call for an increase in the levels of skills being labelled 'expert'

Every Black graded trail I've ridden has been roll-able, which is good because I can't leave the ground. I class myself as low-end intermediate certainly not expert.

If Black's were too hard then hardly anyone would be on them due to the skill level required. The way I look at most Black's is that an intermediate rider can still do them but it takes an expert rider to ride them well.

It is bollocks basically. There's 4 main issues imo

1) Skillsets- equally experienced riders still find some things harder than other riders do, so it's hard to benchmark "expert" level
2) Similiarly, lots of different factors make up difficulty- physical severity frinstance is very different from technicality
3) Marketing- nobody wants to "downgrade" a black or similiarly restrict their market.

So you get absurdity like the "nevis red", which by rights is a pretty hard black, and in the same venue you get the world champs red which is a classic red. Or glentress black which for 9/10ths of it is pretty much exactly as hard as glentress red.

And basically, it's all undervalued, so many blue routes could be green, a lot of reds would be accessible to blue riders, and not many blacks are really all that black. I'm not calling to regrade all blacks to red there btw, I'd just like better terminology. The spread of trail difficulty is pretty good imo

I don't think colours work for us frankly, it's far too crude. I think you need at least 2 graded factors, physicality and technicality. And then maybe keywords.

Glentress red: physicality red, technicality red. Keywords "jumps", "speed" "bike snobs"

I think individual trail sections could do with more detail too. "jumps" "roots" "steep". "The only good bit, enjoy it" "Looks like a descent but isn't" "The rest of the trail is graded black but isn't really, this bit's actually black"

But most especially UP, DOWN, FLAT. Srs.

oh and if you want to be considered an Expert you will get invited by BC based on your results...

I think the parallel with ski grading is appropriate, since we're referring to man-made and well-groomed runs designed to be skied/ridden. Don't we already have "double diamond" and "orange" grades for the stuff you can properly hurt yourself on?

Orange is absolutely bloomin useless tbf. Imparts absolutely no information. Go to glentress and orange can mean a jump the size of my nose, or it can mean a ladder drop with mandatory air, a crap roll in and a fairly high price of failure. Go to fort william and it's a world cup downhill, go to learnie and it's 2 tabletops.

Stevet1 - Member

I thought I would get some hate for this.
My intention is not to put myself across as some kind of rad rider, but to [b]call for an increase in the levels of skills being labelled 'expert'[/b]. It shouldn't (IMO) just be left to the DH courses to include anything that isn't rollable.

Why?

Trail centres aren't sporting centres of excellence, are they? And there is no competitive or timed element to them in normal circumstances.

So, who cares whether it's red or black, or blue graded, try it, see if you like it, if not, don't ride it again. I'm a wheels on the ground kinda guy, but at the weekend I rode a loop in the lakes (very slowly in parts) that I've seen some describe as far beyond what you'd get on black route at a trail centre. But, all the drops were rollable, no jumps to speak of.

I wouldn't ride a lot of trail centre black routes because of the jumps/drops/big stuff that I don't enjoy, and don't want to progress to riding.

You obviously should have been riding the Red Bull Hardline at Atherton's this past weekend!

Thing is, all abilities ride trail centres, from kids to pro's like you, there needs to be some sort of grading to stop novices killing themselves. If you don't like it, you know what to do.

It's easy to forget that most of these centres aren't just aimed at enthusiasts, they are also marketed as a gateway venues to noobs. Someone with a BSO and some fitness can get down a blue and a red in relative safety by just sitting down and going steady all the way round, but a black, even as easy as they are to experienced riders are both intimidating and represent the real possibility of injury. In this context they are for'experts'.

In the context of a 'gateway venue', I think the gradings are about right.

What you're actually complaining about is the missing top end for grading trails, but also the actual provision of more technical 'park' trails.

It's only a matter of time before there are "Fluorescent Green" trails.... the true colour of Gnar.

The same thing was asked when Swinley "red" opened, the issue is at least to some extent the presence of 'chicken' lines. There are some big doubles on some sections, but the reality is that 99.99% will ride them as 2 small tabletops and complain that the jumps are bigger on the blue.

I think the parallel with ski grading is appropriate, since we're referring to man-made and well-groomed runs designed to be skied/ridden. Don't we already have "double diamond" and "orange" grades for the stuff you can properly hurt yourself on?

Exactly, and the proper thrill seekers take themselves to the 'snow park' (dirt jumps, skate park, bike park) or find/build their own gnar off piste (natural trails, secret jumps/drops etc).

The pistes / trail centers are created to cater for the masses and reflect that.

Clearly mountain biking needs to copy rock-climbing - why have 4 grades when you can have a dozen grading systems, each with about 20 grades, and you can use a combination of them. Provides endless fun down the pub.

At the very least we need different systems for trail centres and trad routes, and then you've got the question of whether Scottish Red is the same as Welsh Black. And I'm not convinced that Lady Cannings is really red - possibly just Blue C+.

The grades are for public liability reasons so the landowners can say look we told you so

Anything else about how hard or easy they are or how good you need to be is pure spin

the question of whether Scottish Red is the same as Welsh Black

Had this conversation with a mate the other day.
He's new to 'serious' offroad (anything bigger than canal path). I took him to Bike Park Wales and he had a hoot riding the blue all day. Remarkably fast too for a beginner.

He fancied the red so we took one of the short sections at a slow pace. He was very out of his comfort zone so we stuck to blue for the rest of the day.

Few weeks later I took him to Swinley and I said we'll do the blue and red loop. He was pretty scared but after riding the loop he commented how the red at Swinley was easier than the blue at BPW.

Odd grading system.

I agree that the black sections in trail centres are usually too easy, however I think this is usually appropriate for a trail centre. If you go to BPW or Antur Stiniog then you are presumably already expecting something a bit more technical.
The exception to this, unless it has changed, is the Kona Dark Side at Mabie - now that is a properly hard black section! First time I tried that I had never seen anything like it!

he grades are for public liability reasons so the landowners can say look we told you so

Anything else about how hard or easy they are or how good you need to be is pure spin

^this

The whole point of the grading is to overstate the potential difficulty and skill level required to reduce the number of numpties like me denting themselves on them.

The comparison with (English) climbing grades is quite appropriate:

Difficult = piss easy
Very Difficult = Very Easy
Severe = Still quite easy
Very Severe = Normally fairly steady

Even quite a few 'extremely severes' are far more straightforward than you'd think.

Of course, that grade scale developed mainly because everything felt bloody hard in the 1950s with crap protection/ropes and shoes, but it serves a useful purpose in creating an aura of difficulty for a novice.

There were no trail centres in Northern Ireland till a few years ago, then all of a sudden there were 5. I think a lot of us guffawed at the grading. The black and orange trails are really quite tame. However there were a large number of serious accidents involving people slamming themselves into trees. It seemed to mainly be roadies who had dug their £300 MTB out of the garage and gone far too fast without having any real bike handling skill.

I agree. The 'black' section on Whites Level at Afan is more red imo... or pink even 😛 .
I agree it probably makes people think they are better riders than they are. Watering down what an expert rider is.

guffawed

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michaelmcc - Member

guffawed

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[url= https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=guffawed&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=y9r2VaCRFcqzggSIvI74BQ ]Guffawed.[/url]

Look at ski trail grading, not many black routes are unskiable to those only really comfortable on a red route.

Maybe you are complaining that there aren't enough routes that should be graded double-black?

Can you ride it on a CX bike without being SuperAwesome? Black's probably stretching it a bit then 🙂

I reckon some of the ideas from rock sport grading could be useful, namely splitting the grade into 'fitness' and 'technique'.
A relatively long loop, or one with lots of steep climbing may currently be graded higher because of the fact it is physically demanding but be pretty tame from a 'feature' point of view.
The reverse could also be possible.
Surely it would be better to have a way of showing that a trail needs x level of fitness and y level of bike handling skill?

Personally I just ride stuff. If it's too hard I either try again until I can do it or mince past and never do it again, but I usually avoid Black graded stuff if I've not had any beta on it, just in case it contains unavoidable stuff that is beyond my abilities.

cokie - Member

Odd grading system.

It's not a system at all - there's nobody grading things relative to each other.

But since everyone uses roughly the same colour scheme, it can give that false impression. Like my kid, who rode blues and reds in Coed Y Brenin happily for two days, then came home ad headed down a green bike park trail, and crashed within 10 yards.

I apply the northwind grading. If I ride it blind on the hardtail, and at any point go "oo-er", it's a black. If I ride it on a cx bike and am smug about it, it's a red. If I ride over a child while strava'ing, it's a blue. And if I get lulled into a false sense of security by excessive easyness and end up riding into a tree at the speed of light, it's a green.

In addition to what people are saying about the colour grading not meaning much... that's a good point thisisnotaspoon makes about the red at Swinley.

A well built trail centre trail to some extent can be as challenging as you make it.

Sticking to that example of Swinley there are all sorts of little hidden gems around Swinley red which you can double up if you've got the expert skills and expert speed to do it. But I know many people who have ridden Swinley and slated it as being dull. Some expert level challenges might be hiding in plain sight.

[i]I apply the northwind grading[/i]

where are you on the slightly controversial orangy/red Cyflym Coch, at Coed-y

So, who cares whether it's red or black, or blue graded, try it, see if you like it, if not, don't ride it again.

You obviously should have been riding the Red Bull Hardline at Atherton's this past weekend!

I've had some reality checks recently. I'm confident to have a go on pretty much any trail centre blacks, but there's a feature at Cannock that I just can't get right. It's a rock garden that's a straightforward "point and shoot" in isolation, but is preceded by a tight hairpin that I simply can't get round to line me up for the rocky bit. I've tried it several times and fail miserably each time 😆

Not sure what my point is, other than sometimes black techniques are more than just jumps, rocks and drops.

nickc - Member
I apply the northwind grading

where are you on the slightly controversial orangy/red Cyflym Coch, at Coed-y

Is that controversial? It's the one I was talking about above that ym 7 year old loved

But then again I rarely feel challenged on a black route however if someone asked me I wouldn't say I was an "expert MTB'er".

the grading isn't for you...It's for people who've just bought a £300 Apollo from Halfords, as has been mentioned once or twice.

EDIT: honourable, sorry, I was being factitious, the trails is great fun, it's just the colour they've chosen for the signage that I was alluding to.

It's easy to forget that most of these centres aren't just aimed at enthusiasts, they are also marketed as a gateway venues to noobs. Someone with a BSO and some fitness can get down a blue and a red in relative safety by just sitting down and going steady all the way round, but a black, even as easy as they are to experienced riders are both intimidating and represent the real possibility of injury. In this context they are for'experts'.

so trail centres are built for noobs? And the best we can hope for is that black runs are for what a noob would consider to be an expert???

Exactly, and the proper thrill seekers take themselves to the 'snow park' (dirt jumps, skate park, bike park) or find/build their own gnar off piste (natural trails, secret jumps/drops etc).

I know a few spots where I can go for pure DH, but is it wrong to want part of the thrill of a DH track incorporated into a trail centre loop via "expert" labelled black runs?

the grading isn't for you...It's for people who've just bought a £300 Apollo from Halfords, as has been mentioned once or twice.

Sticking to that example of Swinley there are all sorts of little hidden gems around Swinley red which you can double up if you've got the expert skills and expert speed to do it. But I know many people who have ridden Swinley and slated it as being dull. Some expert level challenges might be hiding in plain sight.

Swinley is an excellent example of an easily accessible trail center ridden by people of all skill levels which needs to grade trails reflective to its user base. I think the 'red' classification there is as much to do with the extra distance (given that you need to ride the blue to get to the red), which would do for many of the younger/family/less fit riders which (very frequently) use it. There were more obvious doubles on the red when it first opened, but they got filled in on safety grounds, but the 'jumps' still exist. As previously mentioned, there are some big gaps on some of the (none off piste) 'downhill' sections which require some serious speed / commitment to nail.

The very fact this thread keeps rolling is testament to how hard it is to grade man-made trails to satisfy everyone.

Someone up there ^ referenced rock climbing grades. That is a proper system established well over a 100 years ago, yet still people have endless debates about how effective and consistent it is. Ask an experienced rock climber what a "Scottish VS" is 🙂

The thing is, I'm an "average ability MTBer" too yet the grading works quite well for me. I know that I can ride the black at Llandegla quite safely, but to ride it as the pros do I have to step up my confidence and ability several notches. That's the genius behind these trails. You can make them "expert" simply by riding them faster/higher/longer.

The main black at Lee Quarry is proper hard in places even if riding it very slowly its not easy to survive.
The red at Healey Nab when it gets extremely boggy in Winter is hard to ride in places. So the difficulty sometimes depends on conditions.

There was something further up about DH tracks being the only ones that aren't rollable. Well I trundled down the World Cup track at Fort William on my hardtail a few weeks ago, and as far as I can recall, apart from the road jump which is closed off, all that was rollable. Ok, a couple of those were forward rolls, but the point stands 🙂

I've had some reality checks recently. I'm confident to have a go on pretty much any trail centre blacks, but there's a feature at Cannock that I just can't get right. It's a rock garden that's a straightforward "point and shoot" in isolation, but is preceded by a tight hairpin that I simply can't get round to line me up for the rocky bit. I've tried it several times and fail miserably each time

Do you mean the little bit with the raised boardwalk bit with the tight turn? It's slightly tricky but not in a gnarr sort of way, just a bit delicate at the beginning. I think Cannock is a good example of somewhere with not a lot of potential which has been used really well, the black bits are quite fun if incredibly short. That apart from a stupid tiny bump near the end which lasts all of 2 seconds but is marked as a black section!

 

Good example of a feature hiding in plain sight - I'd classify myself as an averagely OK rider, comfortable on BPW Reds and the tamer Black bits - yet this is on Swinley Blue and there's no way I'd try it...

I reckon some of the ideas from rock sport grading could be useful, namely splitting the grade into 'fitness' and 'technique'.

The other thing some systems get 'right' is a grading for the average technicality and the hardest move/feature.

So something like Innerleithen XC could be graded Red-7-C

Red- it's pretty average for the most part
7/10 - it'll hurt if you're hungover as there's a fair sized hill, expect at least one fig roll stop.
C (A- 6ft+ drops, B - some significant drops, C- 1-2ft but no rolling, D- it's rollable but you'll have to be carefull, E - you could roll it blindfold)

But that's a ball ache even for a sport which involves more standing around than even the bimbliest MTB ride, 'Red' get's across 99% of the information.

andylc - is that the rock garden that was part of the national XC race (the one with the small bit of Northshore at the top)?

If so, I think thats a great example personally....I saw some of the countrys best XC racers fail to ride that properly...the same XC racers that are quite happy to ride pretty much any feature on trail centres in the UK. I also saw people that struggle to ride small kickers that cleaned the rock garden every lap.

The difference is riding it at that pace and that level of fatigue makes it incredibly difficult.

Steve1 - no, I said they were for noobs [u]aswell[/u].

Like you, I consider myself an average mtber. I'm deeply uncomfortable on jumps/drops of more than about 3ft, but I've out ridden folk on technical descents that think nothing of the jumps at cwm carn DH.

I've not yet found a trail centre that presents much of a technical challenge, although they're good fun in short doses for other reasons. Does that make me an expert? I'm not really sure, but then, I'm more focused on fun than which position I occupy in the international trail centre grading system of abilities.

I think whilst there's a bit of ambiguity when it comes to fitness vs technique, the gradings are generally about right.

Of course in the rarefied atmosphere of STW this may not be obvious, but most will require someone riding them to be significantly fit and/or skilled.

Harder trails will of course exist but from the lack of use some trails get, it's clear there's not that much demand.

I honestly have no idea gazhurst. It's just memorable for me as the only trail centre black section I have ever seen where you just look at it and think **** me!! I still remember looking at the first bit, which is (or at least was) a series of huge boulders arranged in a line, with a good metre or so drop on both sides, you couldn't hit it at speed but going slowly was freaking difficult too, I made it on the second or third attempt and then heard some cockney geezers at the beginning, one of them just shouted 'you must be fackin jokin mate!' and they all left!
I don't think I once completed the whole of it without coming off somewhere, but after I think 3 attempts I at least could say I had ridden all of it, although not all at the same time...

I think I may have to admit defeat, concede that trail centres are for all abilities even the blacks, and get my kicks elsewhere.

Trail grading in the UK IS embarassing. Even more odd is the use of colour grading when people are organising natural rides on meetup groups etc. How can you compare a blue trail centre trail to a ride around footpaths with all sorts of differing stuff on them?

We need to accept that there are two species of mountain bike rider though - those that pretty much only ride trail centres, and those that use their bikes as a tool to get out into wilder spots and do actual mountain biking, whether woods, mountains, glens or countryside. It's not about bragging. Those that ride all over the place learn how to handle their bikes, and those that only ride trail centres, well... no need to say much about them really. Take a ride down some blue trails in France and you'll be jittering from adrenaline at the end of them if you managed to ride all the gaps and rocks! Also, trails with monster jumps that are rollable - I'm not sure how they should be graded. Calling them black would keep people off them, yet a novice might well be quite happy riding down them. But if there are lines that can include 25ft gaps, hips and big drops etc then black might be best as it will draw in those who are likely to make the most of them.

Public bodies that build trails (e.g. Forestry Commission) are the worst for getting it wrong. The mid to high end of the skill range, which makes up probably half of riders, are simply not catered for. Everything seems to be made for beginners, families and the like, but beginners are only going to be beginners for a year or two!

The comparison with (English) climbing grades is quite appropriate:

Difficult = piss easy
Very Difficult = Very Easy
Severe = Still quite easy
Very Severe = Normally fairly steady

Even quite a few 'extremely severes' are far more straightforward than you'd think.

Of course, that grade scale developed mainly because everything felt bloody hard in the 1950s with crap protection/ropes and shoes, but it serves a useful purpose in creating an aura of difficulty for a novice

The english grading system has two grades - the adjectival grade and the technical grade. To a first approximation, the adjectival is how likely it is you'll die if you fall off / make a mistake, and the technical grade is how hard the hardest move is. For example a VDiff 4a will have no hard moves in it and ledges for when you're placing gear, whereas a E8 6c will have hardly any gear and if you mess up a move you'll likely die / break something.

I guess in mtb terms the glentress black might be say a severe 4a, as there's nothing very hard on it but you could hurt yourself a bit, and freight train in whistler might be a E4 6a - there's an obligatory step up jump and drop off a freight container - get that wrong and you'll break something.

Something of a pointless debate tho. People know what to expect from a UK trail centre black now.

We need to accept that there are two species of mountain bike rider though - those that pretty much only ride trail centres, and those that use their bikes as a tool to get out into wilder spots and do actual mountain biking, whether woods, mountains, glens or countryside.

It is almost impossible to decide what an 'expert' is. My username is only partly ironic, but as far as I can see I am in the top 25% in terms of skill level when it comes to somewhere like Glentress. I would not classify myself as being expert, but do you judge that in the context of say, Steve Peat or in terms of where I stand in the population as a whole? To me it makes sense that if 95% of potential users couldn't ride the trail, then it is reasonable to call it black.

I'm disappointed that this thread has remained so civil. It falls way below my expectations for STW.

Not once has anyone mentioned a cockwomble or bombers yet. 😆

To a first approximation, the adjectival is how likely it is you'll die if you fall off / make a mistake, and the technical grade is how hard the hardest move is. For example a VDiff 4a will have no hard moves in it and ledges for when you're placing gear, whereas a E8 6c will have hardly any gear and if you mess up a move you'll likely die / break something.

Sorry, that's wrong. The adjectival grade is how hard the route is taking everything including danger in to account. The technical grade is, as you say, the hardest move or series of moves.

Jeez! Arguing about rock climbing grades on a biking forum.

I think I may have to admit defeat, concede that trail centres are for all abilities even the blacks, and get my kicks elsewhere.

How long does it take until you start finding blacks easy? I've been riding regularly for 2 years now and still find most blacks hard just to get through without a foot down, never mind start thinking about doing it fast or jumping (my wheels don't leave the ground yet)

this makes no sense to me, it should be for everyone from novice through to the "expert"?

As we've discovered Black means different things at different locations, the Reds at Antur Stiniog is a good example, it would be most definitely black anywhere else, but given what's also there, it's Red grading is appropriate to it's location.

Jeez! Arguing about rock climbing grades on a biking forum

Don't say that too loud, far too many old bores on here already, we don't need the UKC lot pitching in.

Gradings should be of little concern to the real climber. I remember when one had one's manservant interpret the topo.

grannyjone - Member
How long does it take until you start finding blacks easy? I've been riding regularly for 2 years now and still find most blacks hard just to get through without a foot down, never mind start thinking about doing it fast or jumping (my wheels don't leave the ground yet)

You need to push your limits a bit. Take some sessions with mates at an unofficial jump park, or steep forest trail network. Get into a train and follow people off stuff, then walk back up and see what you've just ridden. Have a shandy beforehand if you need to overcome the fear a bit! 😉

Do you mean the little bit with the raised boardwalk bit with the tight turn?

Is that the rock garden that was part of the national XC race (the one with the small bit of Northshore at the top)?

no

I know this bit but that's not the bit I'm thinking of. It's a bit of black somewhere near Snap, Crackle and Pop IIRC. It's basically a switchback with a 3 or 4 foot wooden wall on the outside edge, then a rock garden. I find it very hard (impossible!) getting round the switchback to line myself up for the otherwise easy "point and shoot" rock garden.

I don't think theres necessarily two types of MTB'er, myself and all my riding friends alternate depending on weather, time available etc, but I'd expect two different types of rides for sure.

A different riding style for a different ride raises the question of different types of rider resulting from the tradition of country side basher vs trail centre hooner. Do the skills transfer, and do they make a difference to your relative skill level when riding the other.

The question now is if I'm an 'expert' map basher, and I only an 'average' trail centre hooner, or vice versa.

One could fill a whole wall with pigeon holes if you think about it.

Sottish grades can't be harder than welsh, Rhapsody E11 7a is safe as houses, where as t'Indian face is E9 6c and certain death 😀

PS. Spooky wood is the benchmark.

t's not about bragging. Those that ride all over the place learn how to handle their bikes, and those that only ride trail centres, well... no

I've got to disagree with you there.

I started mountainbiking arround Derby, mostly it's riding bikes round the woods, hills etc, nothing too technical, just the occasional bit of rooty singletrack. The kind of stuff you see in the Mint Sauce cartoons.

Then I moved upto the MTBing Meca that is Sheffield, home of the rocky, the rooty and the wet.

It wasn't untill I was 22 and moved to the comparatively barren SE that I actually learnt how to get round a corner quickly or jump!

Which again raises the question of what's difficult? I could have ridden rocky rooty gnadgery trails for breakfast, show me a fast corner and I looked like that guy who lost GT's Oakleys.

Still haven't ridden many trail centers (Cwm Rhyader, Brechfa, Swinley Cannock, Llandegla, Dalby, Kielder, Stainburn*, GT and Inners).

*the exception that proves the rule, it's a trail center for people that don't like trail centers. Whereas soemwhere like Tunnel Hill is maybe 'natural' trails for someone who hates bridleways.

It's the same as the Flats Vs SPD argument, neither's better, if you're confident enough in SPD's then they're not a factor, does that make their users more skilled? Or does the ability to ride flats impart some otherwise unattainable prowess?

PS. Spooky wood is the benchmark.

Most over hyped trail ever, I rode it twice to make sure I'd not missed something, the switchback climb to the top is more of a challenge/fun! It makes Swinley Blue look over graded.

spoon that is the point 😉