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I'm fully expected to be flamed mercilessly for this but... I'm finally thinking maybe it's time to go tubeless. I'm running Stans Crest rims with Bontrager XR4 TLR tyres (and tubes). According to the Stans website I need Stans tape, Stans valves and Stans sealant; but in the real world, what have people's experiences been? What works best and is most reliable for a tubeless newb? And how long can I expect it, once set up, to be fine for - how often does it need redoing (new sealant etc)?
And for those asking why, I just never saw the need til now. I've been riding MTB about once a month on average the last few years, and get a flat maybe once a year. Given the faff of setting up tubeless, and the (old?) advice that if you get a flat you're gonna need a tube anyway, I didn't see the point.
But I've just gone through the hassle of getting an XR4 off a Crest tyre (b*stard tight), pulling out the tube to find the valve's separated from the tube, put in a new tube, get the tyre back onto the rim (b*stard tight), trying to get it to seat properly, trying again, trying a third time; come back to find the new tube's gone flat, get the tyre off the rim again to find the valve's separated from this tube; put in a second new tube, get the tyre back on, get it seated properly...
...and I can't imagine how going tubeless would be massively more of a headache than that!
Yes you'll need tape, valves, sealant and tyres that are tubeless ready. There's no need to go premium on the tape and valves though, there's plenty of cheaper brands available on eBay or AliExpress if you can wait for the slightly longer delivery time.
I use Stans sealant but there are plenty of other brands available. It's worth getting some isopropyl alcohol to clean the rims before taping to ensure good adhesion but that's about it.
Stans/tesa tape is great
Stans solution is great
Valves - I use DT swiss with schwalbe clik valves
No flaming here.
My current setup uses:
IPA / Disc brake cleaner.
Insulation tape to do an initial sealing off of the rim bed spoke holes.
25mm Gorilla Tape (people may flame me for this), but I find it really good.
Peaty's sealant.
Any old tubeless valve.
A couple of different sizes of o-ring for the valve stem if things just won't work.
Neat Fairy Liquid for the beads if necessary.
Sharp spike for making the valve hole.
Track pump with Airshot.
Bucket (to rest the wheel on either side for 5 mins when set up).
Learning how to tape rims is an arse.
WD40 degreaser is (much) easier to find than isopropyl alcohol.
Gorilla tape is great until you’ve left a tyre on too long and it’s all fused together, and you need to change it.
Isopropyl alcohol (Amazon I think) to clean.
Leccy tape as above to cover the holes,
Tape, tubeless or stans wrapped round with an overlap over the valve (cut at 45°) then a valve reinforcement tape (again at 45°)
Bradawl (Amazon or Screwfix)
Valves I've got a variety think I have the nukeproof ard ones in just now.
Tyre on (logos and valves lined up) with sealant in the bottom sloshing around, finish popping the tyre on (swear a bit)
Airshot and track pump.
Sometimes they go up first time without an issue, other times they deflated multiple times until onedaythey don't
I top up by sticking a syringe needle down the valve and jetting some in.
I once had 21thorns in atyre and it held pressure. That would be 21 puncture with tubes.
Once you have all that down come back and discuss tyre inserts.
Ice currently got wildenduro on ex571 up front and ex471 out back and it's tough combo to get on and off. Last time the rear was cut off
Pretty much any combination of the above kit will work. The time spent prepping/cleaning/taping your rim will pay dividends.
Also take care when seating your tyre, if it's a bit snug go easy with levers so as not to damage the tape.
I have reserve rims, so matching valves and tape. The beuaty of the valves is it only takes a track pump to inflate. Got Peaty's sealant inside Conti DH casing Kryptotals.
I only just went tubeless this year and it was relatively faff free. Luckily my rims were already taped so didn't have that extra hassle. I just got the standard Muc Off valves and Stans sealant since that's what my lbs had. One side of the bead was already seated from the tube which probably made it easier. Valve core out, pump like a maniac with a track pump to seat the other side, then injected the sealant in through the valve. Didn't have any problems with it going down overnight and it seems to hold air as well as any tube I've had in the past. So I got pretty lucky I guess, some experiences I've seen online put me off doing it for ages!
...and I can't imagine how going tubeless would be massively more of a headache than that!
You do realise you typed that out loud!?
WD40 degreaser is (much) easier to find than isopropyl alcohol.
Methylated spirits works well too.
Have never bothered with the electrical tape before... but can't hurt.
One other thing I have is a small measuring jug so I can get the right amount of sealant.
Apart from the taping the hardest part can be putting the sealant in. The two main methods are:
1 - Fit the tyre almost completely and then put the sealant in just before closing up the tyre
2 - Remove the valve stem and put it in through the valve using a plastic tube or similar that goes over the valve
First method can be less faff... but it is tricky if the tyre is tight. You need to spin the tyre around so the open section is at the top while you fit it or the sealant will dribble out.
Warm tape, pull it really tight
I think you need an air tank. You might not. But when you do, you do
Stans tape, warmed and pulled really tight as you go round onto an IPA cleaned rim .One wrap will do and overlap the valve area by at least one spoke hole. Or thinner tesa tape (forget no ) and 2 wraps. The thinner stuff is easier to apply. Then heat an Allen key (dia to match valve) on a gas stove or blowtorch to push through the tape for the valve. The heat seals the tape to stop splitting.
Then valve in. If you are using an insert then a valve that sends the air sideways is needed.
Then tyre on, couple of stans cups of sealant in and pump up to 40psi. Do a stans dance and you are all good. Leave it at 40 until you are ready to ride then lower it.
Most tyres go up fine with a track pump. Some need an inflator like an airshot but not many nowadays.
I've just done it for the fist time too. New Hunt wheels came already taped and they supplied valves.
Fitted Vittoria Mezcal XC tyres dry and inflated with compressor. They stayed up quite a while without sealant.
Have a Stans injector syringe and will be adding Pirelli Scorpion sealant through the valve.
Painless so far 😊
I failed setting up a tubeless tyre for the first time yesterday. My new Elitewheels SLR Gravel arrived and I went to fit GP5000ASTRs. I thought I'd taped it well (with the tape they included), couple of small air bubbles I couldn't get rid of is all. Took me forever to get the tyre on, no chance I could do it with just thumbs (soap wasn't helping either). Resorted to levers but the first one broke (at this point I figured there was a good chance I'd be breaking the rim before getting the tyre on. Eventually it went on (had to resort to metal core levers and a lot of grunting and swearing. No chance I'm doing this at the side of the road if a puncture doesn't seal...
Came to inflate it with just an electric pump but it wouldn't go past 16 psi so reverted to a Joe Blow pump with a inflator chamber, that seemed to work initially but then could hear air escaping and realised it was coming out of the drain hole so I guess the tape wasn't done properly or I damaged it putting the tyre on. Thank god for the drain holes though or I'd have likely blown the rim apart.
Now waiting on Stan's 27mm tape to arrive before I try again
A useful tip from where else but STW that I used was to use a soldering iron to make the valve hole.
TESA tape is awful IMO - well at least the 4289 is. It’s no where near sticky or flexible enough even after warming up and pulling really tight and leaving an inner tube in overnight. The black (4288?) might be slightly better as it’s thinner but I CBA to try it.
Althougn the TESA does seal initially I found it peeled away at the edges and eventually failed because of that. Some people say you need two wraps for best performance but again I CBA with that either as it makes the tyre much harder to fit - in the case of road/gravel tyres anyway. Large MTB are more forgiving. TESA is cheap though by comparison.
Best results for me are from Schwalbe or DT Swiss tape. Roval tape as supplied on a set of my wheels failed after 10 months or so - went through the spoke holes in several areas.
Sealant wise - meh. Stan’s is fine for MTB and lasts ages - doesn’t always fully seal at higher pressures. Silca is utter shite and dries up in 5 mins and is then impossible to remove. I’ve had good results with Orange and Challenge Smart Seal. Both of which seal tyres with porous sidewalls very well - Rene Herse, Specialized Mondo/Challenge.
I think I’m correct in saying for a first timer don’t buy a sealant that won’t go through a valve, like Stans Race. Get the tyre seated and inflated. Then put the sealant in through the valve.
Do others agree?
The other thing you'll (eventually) need is a tubeless repair kit with a stabber and some anchovies. Peatys one is OK and they're doing 20% off over the BH.
https://peatys.co.uk/products/holeshot-tubeless-puncture-plugger-kit
Also IME it's best to get in a quick ride after setting things up as that seems to do a better job of sloshing the sealant around (thereby fixing any small leaks) than just wiggling the wheel by hand.
...and I can't imagine how going tubeless would be massively more of a headache than that!
Excuse me while I end myself rolling around on the floor laughing 😉
What you need is luck. If you're lucky it's easy, if you're not prepare to have your sanity and patience tested to the extreme.
In fairness I've had a fairly trouble free few years (especially on the MTB) but recently my gravel setup has been an absolute nightmare, so I've learned a few extra things.
1) Stan's seems to be very poor at actually sealing holes in tyres, but I *think* does an excellent job of packing out any gaps around the edge of the bead. I'm now wondering if all the dried out rubbery latex stuck to the bead of the tyre has left the remaining liquid sealant relatively latex free which is why it never seals small holes. I switched to Juice Lubes recently (latex free stuff, I think very similar to Peaty's, (new) Muc-Off, OKO Bioshot etc) which gets great reviews but DOESN'T seem to coagulate around the edges of the bead. Now I'm burping air every ride and limping home on half delfated tyres despite starting at artificially high pressures. So I'm going back to Stan's for now until I finish the bottle then might try Orange Seal, it seems to get the best reviews but dries out relatively fast apparently.
2) Peaty's Rim Job tape is terrible, fails at the one thing it needs to do best i.e. adhere to the rim. I applied it (hair drier, stretch, blistered thumbs from pressing down in to the well of the rim, etc. etc.) and rode with a tube in for a couple of rides. When I took tyre off/tube out to go tubeless, the Peaty's rim tape had all migrated to the centre of the rim well and sort of folded in on itself, leaving behind a sticky residue that was really hard to clean off. It's a miracle the tube hadn't punctured as the spoke holes were exposed. This is a common trend in tubeless in my experience, products which claim to do a specific job and can't even do that (tapes that don't stick, sealants that don't seal). Too much trial and error in my experience.
3) Some rims can just be an absolute arse. I think until I wear out my rear rim using cantilever brakes for CX season I'm just going back to tubes. Steep/deep wells in the middle of the rim cause all sorts of grief so look for shallow, wide rim wells that will tape easily. My best results have been with Bontrager rims and Bontragers proprietary pre-formed plastic rim strip. I wish more manufacturers did this.
4) The most reliable step for an easy life is to install tyres with a tube first, pump up hard and leave overnight. Next day come back and only unseat one side of the tyre to remove the tube and install the tubeless valve. Makes seating the tyre WAY easier and often I can do it just by removing the valve core and using a standard track pump.
Good luck!
that seemed to work initially but then could hear air escaping and realised it was coming out of the drain hole so I guess the tape wasn't done properly or I damaged it putting the tyre on
I went through a phase of this happening, using water I could see lots of little bubbles coming through spoke holes. It turned out (see above re: difficult rim) that the overlap of tape wasn't sticking to itself perfectly and air was getting between the layers and into the rim via the valve hole. I now wrap starting opposite the valve hole to ensure the longest possible overlap (i.e. half the circumference of the wheel). Funnily enough the sealant seemed completely unable to seal these little gaps between the layers of tape but perhaps it needs the rubber of a tyre to adhere to or something.
Has anyone made a good alternative to rim tape yet? Still seems like such a bodge with varying degrees of success, would love an alternative.
Has anyone made a good alternative to rim tape yet? Still seems like such a bodge with varying degrees of success, would love an alternative.
Has anyone made a good alternative to rim tape yet? Still seems like such a bodge with varying degrees of success, would love an alternative.
Yeah, but it requires a rim manufacturer to also manufacture the tape it seems, for instance Bontrager do TLR rims and TLR tape, which works brilliantly.
Caffelatex do a rim strip but it's just a precut strip of thick latex that you stretch over the rim. Not unlike using a 24" inner tube stretched round the rim and trimmed!
Has anyone made a good alternative to rim tape yet? Still seems like such a bodge with varying degrees of success, would love an alternative.
I had high hopes for "Joe's Tubeless Rim Strips" which promised just this but in practice they turned out to be shite with a massive design flaw having too much rubber around the valve hole base that meant that that area is proud of the central channel and gets in the way of the tyre bead / rim interface.
Joe's Tubeless Rim Strip | Joe's No-Flats
Clearly works for some rims otherwise the product wouldn't be out there I expect. Maybe for rims with a deep wide central channel unlike the Stans Crest and Fulcrum something-or-others I tried them on.
Tubeless is totally amazing and trouble free, or a huge pain in the arse. Worth it when the stars align with the right tyres, rims, tape, vales and sealant though.
As mentioned above, it definitely helps to install with a tube first to get the tyres to seat properly. Then remove it and reinflate with no sealant. A track pump should be fine unless you have a troublesome tyre/rim combo, then you may need an airshot or compressor. Assuming the tyres do seat well and you get a good seal I find it best to add the sealant via the valve. Then once that's done and the tyres are aired up I like to cover the sidewalls and rim/tyre interface with soapy bubbles (Fairy Liquid) which slows down any air escaping and helps the sealant do it's job. Periodically give the wheels as good shake and spin too. Some tyres may seep sealant through the sidewalls so if so wipe them down an apply more soapy bubbles and give them another shake and spin. If you do get seepy tyres it's worth adding a little bit more sealant once the seeping stops.
For tape I've had good luck with TESA in the past, although the current wheels on both my bikes are pre-taped now.
On to sealant. If you haven't bought it yet, I'd pick an alternative to Stan's Sealant as it smells absolutely awful (unless they've changed the recipe). Think cat piss. I know that sounds like a silly reason, but not when it's all over you hands, clothes, bike and floor.
I'd also avoid the Trek/Bontrager sealant as it's blue with gold glitter in it. Again, a bit of a nightmare if you get it on anything. I can't remember it having much of a smell.
Obviously you want to avoid getting any brand of sealant on anything apart from inside the tyres, but shit happens.
I personally like Peaty's as it seals well on both MTB and gravel tyres. Smells ok too.
I've found Muc-Off doesn't seal that well, although it does smell nice.
Orange Seal is also very popular, although I haven't tried that. Apparently is has a pleasant to neutral smell.
This post is brought to you by STW's resident sealant sniffer.
I had high hopes for "Joe's Tubeless Rim Strips" which promised just this but in practice they turned out to be shite with a massive design flaw having too much rubber around the valve hole base that meant that that area is proud of the central channel and gets in the way of the tyre bead / rim interface.
The stans version of the same thing was brilliant, even had a couple of "fake" bead locking ridges on most of them. Still have a few sets in service on older, pre tubeless wheels.
I've just stuck with all Stans up to now, tape (Stans/TESA 4289) and their normal sealant. Valves i just get what ever looks passably good. Rarely had an issue that's not been solvable with a bit of swearing and a compressor.
Watched this video the other day and learnt stuff, including a "TL" tyre could be installed without sealant because the inside of the tyre has been sealed (but obviously no puncture protection without sealant), while "TLR" will need sealant to simply seal the inside of the tyre before you then probably need to add more to seal punctures within a few weeks!
did any one mention the sacrifice to the tyre gods?
I had high hopes for "Joe's Tubeless Rim Strips" which promised just this but in practice they turned out to be shite with a massive design flaw having too much rubber around the valve hole base that meant that that area is proud of the central channel and gets in the way of the tyre bead / rim interface.The stans version of the same thing was brilliant, even had a couple of "fake" bead locking ridges on most of them. Still have a few sets in service on older, pre tubeless wheels.
I've just stuck with all Stans up to now, tape (Stans/TESA 4289) and their normal sealant. Valves i just get what ever looks passably good. Rarely had an issue that's not been solvable with a bit of swearing and a compressor.
Oh wow, I searched for these and found an amazing page which I think describes everything that has been going wrong with my current DCR rim which constantly burps and won't seem to take a taping. The 'bead float gap!'.
Funnily enough I'm just back in from garage taking the tube out ready to install inerts and sealant, but popping the tyre off the bead took the tape with it, so I'm right back to square one and now officially giving up trying to make this rim tubeless, off to Tiso to pick up a reinforced TPU tube instead.
Welp, just discovered the second new inner tube I put in the tyre has also gone flat - either round the valve or possibly an old patched puncture. I really can't be arsed to try again with a tube, so tubeless it is.
Here we go....
Something to check - is the tape that is already on your rims might be OK - if they are stan's rims, a lot of bikes come tubeless ready.
For those recommending Gorilla tape, it’s great to put on as is much more flexible than proper tubeless tape so makes he job easy, however if you ever need to remove it, the residue it leaves behind is a right pain to remove (as I can attest having bought a set second hand wheels and having to do this job).
Stans sealant has always been good for me (and Race version for road / gravel tyres as it handles the higher pressures better).
Fillmore valves are expensive but much nicer than standard presta, I have sets on 3 of my 4 bikes now).
Invest in an Airshot or similar, saves so much hassle if the track pump doesn’t work.
Has anyone made a good alternative to rim tape yet? Still seems like such a bodge with varying degrees of success, would love an alternative.
I find Newmen rim strips very good as an alternative to tape. Bontrager rim strips also exist but make fitting tyres near impossible.
Stan's is the only good sealant
Gorilla tame is porous and leaves a horrible mess, avoid
Thanks all, after reading this thread i am happy to stick with tubes!
Stan's is the only good sealant
Conversly - I found Stans to not work as well & never sealed punctures compared to Orange Seal (got a bit pricey) Muc Off (cheap, buy gloopy, lasted well seemed to work OK) I'm not on WTB sealant as it's had good reviews, bloody runny but so far so good.
Thanks all, after reading this thread i am happy to stick with tubes!
If you don't puncture often then tubes are probably fine, but for those who do then tubeless is absolutely worth a bit of initial faffing about.
For example, in the 12 years (all tubeless) I had my previous MTB I never once had to deal with a flat tyre (other than burping the rear on a corner once which was my fault). Then on my gravel bike when I commuting to work and back I was getting 2 or 3 punctures a week before going tubeless. I've had a bit more faffage with tubeless on that bike since but still worth it. Finally, on my latest MTB I've done over 350 miles and again, I haven't once had a puncture (to my knowledge, I may well have but the sealant has fixed it).
All that being said, if I had a "proper" road bike I'd probably stick with tubes.
Thanks all, after reading this thread i am happy to stick with tubes!
Ive not suffered a puncture on my Mtb in the many years since going tubeless, on the road I’ve had one (which would have sliced a tube too). Unless you have a horrific tyre / rim combo (and this is the same for a tubes set up too) it’s a pretty simple process to set up and maintain.
On the road I can see why some stick to tubes, on the Mtb tubeless is a no brainier.
The thinner 2-wrap stuff I mentioned above is the Vittoria rim tape
https://int.vittoria.com/products/tubeless-rim-tape
But it is a tesa tape too, probably the 4288 mentioned above? Anyway it is thinner, stretches a little and conforms to the rim shape better than stans/ tesa 4289. Nothing wrong with stans/tesa 4289, but the thinner stuff is easier to get right first go and sits into the rim better due to the stretch.
Sealant - mostly stans regular, but if it's an important event/race/whatever, then stans race. Both are poured in with a bit of tyre bead off. I haven't tried via the valve.
Agree with the above, I think Pacenti tape is the same as the Vittoria tape and DT might also be same (but with logos?).
Welp, just discovered the second new inner tube I put in the tyre has also gone flat - either round the valve or possibly an old patched puncture. I really can't be arsed to try again with a tube, so tubeless it is.
Here we go....
This sounds like the exact situation that drove me to going tubeless too 🙂 had a series of punctures and valve related flats over a weekend, said **** it and went tubeless. Haven't had a flat since!
Thanks all, after reading this thread i am happy to stick with tubes!
Honestly, I swear to god - went and bought 2 new inner tubes, went to install one. B*stard XR4 tyre came off the rim relatively easily; but took a good 15 minutes and scratching the rim to get the d*mn thing back on. Absolutely horrendous - if tubeless means I don't have to do that again, it's worth it my mind...
Something else to be aware of:
I injected 120ml (of Pirelli Scorpion) into one tyre using the Stans syringe - no problem. After inflating the first tyre and sloshing the sealant around I tried to do the second tyre but I found the syringe was clogged with sealant.
I had to rinse it out with water to get it to work again.
Maybe this issue wouldn't occur if both tyres were injected in quick succession.
Tyres have stayed up all day though 😀
Haven't converted the MTBs yet but .....meh. The road and gravel bikes are all done the same way. Tesa tape. Might pre seat with inflated inner tube. Might wipe the rims over in the same way everything is if it is greasy and shouldn't be. Put tyres on. If sloppy add more tape. Seat with track pump. Deflate and use a syringe to add fluid. Usually Caffelatex as it works well and is about as cheap as you get. That works for everything. Got about 8 sets of wheels that are meant to be tubeless and as many that aren't. All seem to do the same thing. Most non tubeless tyres work, especially if there is a tubeless version. They are often identical apart from logo in my experience.