[Closed] Gnarliest bike you can ride XC on?

my dad spent the late noughties doing xc on a rocky mountain rmx with 888's

seen here on winnats

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There are three of these left If 20.5” is any good

A mate rode singletrack 7 & torq in your sleep, solo 12hr, in 2017 on a coil shock 180mm specialised enduro evo. Didn’t come last...

Up until recently, Specialized Enduro 170mm travel both ends.

Got the spec'duro. Don't buy it for your purpose. I'm in exactly the same situation as you ....
Giant Anthem and spec'duro. One each side of what I actually need. Such a waste of five ****ing grand.

Something like a Scott Spark would do the job if you prefer the XC part, or a Genius if you are in it more for the downs. Most other brands have similar types of bikes in their line up. I ride a Liteville 301 that can be built up sub-30 lb easy enough, though mine is a bit more burly that that currently. They pedal/climb really well, and with a slackset (64.5 degree head angle) and a 170mm dropper, it will get you down any of those steep trails in the S Wales valleys (it has done!)

I think you have to accept any bike is a compromise if doing multi style riding. Pick something like 170mm and it won't be fast but will be great on descents, pick something 100 and we'll, you know the rest.

To answer directly though, for xc I don't want even 140mm. My 130 is way plenty

I ride XC pretty often on my Remedy 29. 65 degree head angle, 160mm coil 36s, etc etc. I'd happily go a bit bigger, but this bike's raced enduro and the mega and is still happy to pootle in the Pentlands, it's pretty awesome tbh.

Any modern enduro bike will be leagues better than your patriot at XC and DH.

What about an aggressive hardtail? Could be better on the ups and still good on the downs but tiring but being at its shortish rides you are doing that shouldn't matter.

Specialized Stumpjumper (even the Evo), trek fuel, giant trance 29, new blur, smuggler.

On steep stuff it's angles and length of bike that will make a big difference.

I'm lucky that I have a smuggler (140/115) and an enduro (170/165). Too the Enduro to fod today (away from the pedalabikeaway) as the trails we ride are pretty rough and some big impacts. Tomorrow it's an xc/trail at cannock round the off piste stuff, so it's on the smuggler.

One bike to do it all, stumpy Evo for me, two sets of wheels, two shock (coil, air), perfect.

How about something like the Whyte S120, seems to get great reviews, aggressive geo in a short travel lightish package.

On the other hand I only have 1 bike now, a Last Glen 140/150mm travel 29er that's long and slack, it will get used for a it of everything.

A bunch of mtbers I used to ride with in the North Downs/Surrey Hills used to have a 'Gnarly XC' ride every year between Christmas and New Year, where you'd ride the most OTT bike you had for XC.

I've ridden a Specialized Big Hit (same one I peddled back to Arc 1800 from Bourg St Maurice after spending too long in a bar post-decent), a Dialled Bikes UK Flow (24" wheel jump bike) and all sorts of other stuff over inappropriately long distances. It would probably kill me if I tried it these days.

It's all a matter of perspective though I guess. My 'main' bike these days in a Cotic Rocket with 160mm Pikes. A decade or so ago a bike with that amount of fork travel, single ring up front and 'tough' build was pretty much considered a Freeride/Light DH bike. Indeed I had a 2006 Specialized SX Trail that I both raced DH on and used as my 'Alps bike', a bike very similar in design to my Cotic Rocket.

Patriot’s geometry is a bit wrong to go uphill with. It can, but it’s a pita. Winch and Plummet. Fair dos

My Alpine 160 was a good evolution of that experience, but that’s all it was, an evolution. Less bad at the thing the patriot was pretty poor at. My alpine 6 is on a totally different level though. It’s the best climbing bike I’ve ever had. It shimmy’s up technical climbs like a rat up a drain pipe, or I can pootle it up long ascents in Spain and Austria without ever feeling like I’m winching the bike up. It’s seriously good.

Then when the going heads downhill the modern geometry and terrain obliterating chassis are pretty unbeatable, this side of a 200mm gnarpoon. It’s bloody wonderful.

My 170mm Ransom is sub 30lbs and with the right tyres pedals up really rather well and goes down much faster than I can.
Back to a genius next year though as 150mm is the sweet spot for me.

I replaced my 120mm trail bike with a vitus sommet and it's no slower on local tame xc loops and much more capable everywhere else. Great bike imo

I personally wouldn't ride anything bigger than my 2015 Spesh Enduro, which is about the same size and geometry as most current 130 mm trail bikes. So something along the lines of a Canyon Neuron, Yeti SB130 etc. might be a good compromise. Anything bigger is going to make the XC part of the ride more of a slog for marginal gain on the downhills.

29er hardtail with slackish head angle should do the trick. Can’t go wrong with a Sherpa or Soul.

Current Orange full sus 29ers go like shit off a shovel and have decent geometry.

Isn't the new Tallboy billed as a DH bike for XC riders? That would seem to be what you're after.

I think i'd go for 130 /140 travel at the back but with fox 36's at the front. Like an orange 5, yeti SB130. modern suspension is so capable at the back you can have the climbing benefits less rear travel brings. But burly forks on the front for the descents.

What Jam bo said.

“Any modern enduro bike will be leagues better than your patriot at XC and DH.”

Thirded.

Or if you’re willing to go a bit less fast on the roughest parts of the descents, I’m really enjoying my slacked out Bird Zero AM hardtail - static head angle and reach are 63.4 deg and 436mm (medium) but at the sag I run with a 150mm Pike it’s at 65 deg and 455mm reach. Combined with a 185mm dropper there’s nothing I wouldn’t ride it down that I’d dare ride on a bigger bike, but with a 76 deg seat angle, only 27 lbs of weight and a 10-50 cassette it whizzes back up the hills.

Starting afresh I’d probably go with an equally gnarly 29er hardtail as if your legs are long enough to not get tangled in the rear wheel then there appear to be no downsides.

I've read several reports that bikes with super steep seat angles are bad for riding any distance in the flat....?

Over biked? Pah! Ride what you have.

The Jeffsy saved my life on the SDW.

This pic taken just after I tried to keep up with a guy on a gravel bike.😆

I simply had a loose shoe lace is all... So had to stop obviously.

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Sounds like you need an e-bike.

*runs away*

I had good fun riding Machen ,Wylie etc on my old 100mm Giant Anthem 26er .Good modern enduro style bikes are great all rounders.My MK 1 Capra (165mm)certainly doesn't give me any excuses,it'll both descend better and be able go further than I can .

I've ridden xc on my heckler built up heavy with dh kit on it and a burley 4x bike.

Cotic Flare

“I’ve read several reports that bikes with super steep seat angles are bad for riding any distance in the flat….?”

I’m not sure what happens when you go beyond about 76 deg but I definitely used to have my bars too low for that angle to work on the flat, it felt like a TT bike with all my weight on the bars. With the bars up high it works fine on the flat and climbs very well.

Now that we’re seeing chainstays get longer I think we might see seat angle steepening diminishing.

It wasn't particularly gnarly but I used to race xc and marathon on my stumpy FSR. That version had 5" travel which was big for it's time. Did alright. Top 30 in the national champs, decent times in the K100, won a couple of local races.

Something where you can lock out or lock down the fork and shock make a difference (Fox Talas).
Frames needn't be heavy these days but light strong is expensive. Wheel and tyre choice is important. It really depends how heavy you are and how you ride. I got away with running stan's crest wheels. I had switched to race tyres when needed which made a difference but you sacrifice a lot in terms of grip and strength when you do that.

bikes with super steep seat angles are bad for riding any distance in the flat….?

That would have to depend on the top tube length / reach.

If it's not made longer at same time as seat angle is made steeper then you'll end up more sit-up-and-beg.

If it is, you won't notice much difference.

Note: I am not a bike designer.

Similar situation...ive a 160mm enduro bike and 29er hardtail and enjoy xc but with a few trails chucked in; enduro bike seems too much for the xc aspect & the hardtail seems too little for the trail aspect. Weight and wheels/tyres make a big difference but ive settled on the idea of a mid-travel lightweight bike such as a SC 5010...in fact ive pretty much narrowed it to the 5010, just got to save up the pennies. If theres any other mid travel (120-140) lightweight carbon 27.5 frames that I'd be interested to hear.

I’ve ridden xc on my heckler built up heavy with dh kit on it and a burley 4x bike.

Obviously it's physically possible, the real issue is what was it like?

I don't actually mind riding the Patriot up and along, it just takes so much longer than my XC bike. I'll always keep an XC bike of course, I'd only take a long travel bike.when I specifically want to do the big descents. I just don't want it to take so long.

In the spirit of recommending what you have

Orbea Occam AM - preferably last year's model with 27.5 and 150 travel.

It complements my XC bike pretty well, you notice the difference in climbing/road ability, but not half as much as you'd think. A proper fork/shock lockout helps, obviously.

But one of the main limitations on some modern trail/enduro bikes is max chainring size. Occam can only take 32, which might not be enough for 'making progress' on road.

It doesn’t sound like what you want is an xc bike - as effectively you’re wanting to ride it like enduro. Steep / tech trails but that you ride between them. Just what you have is a bit too slow between them, or on the flip side too steep / xc to enjoy the steep stuff.

So you need to decide what compromise you want - it sounds like you’d compromise a bit more on the downs to make the ups a bit easier?

That said, you Patriot is pretty old now and more modern but shorter travel bikes are likely to out decend it anyway, as well as out do it uphill.

The likes of a Bird Aeris 120LT / Whyte T130 and other stuff like that would probably do a great job for you. 140mm forks / 130mm back end but with quite progressive geometry - without being hugely long and slack is likely a good place to be for your riding.

Either that or a similar travel 29er with decent but not mental geometry.

Looking at it from the other perspective- how gnarly a bike do you actually need- as said above length and angles will get you down most stuff these days.

I've an Aeris 145, but when I tested the 120 I felt that it would go anywhere the 145 would, with as much control, albeit with not quite the same ultimate speed.

EDIT: aagh, never refreshed the page before posting and joe's written basically the same as me.

Looking at it from the other perspective- how gnarly a bike do you actually need- as said above length and angles will get you down most stuff these days.

I’ve an Aeris 145, but when I tested the 120 I felt that it would go anywhere the 145 would, with as much control, albeit with not quite the same ultimate speed.

EDIT: aagh, never refreshed the page before posting and joe’s written basically the same as me.

Funnily enough I also have an Aeris 145LT and it does get me round a 50km ride, but I’d imagine a 140/130 bike would probably get round a bit quicker overall. That said I live for the down sections so I’m happy to drag round 170/160mm travel and a 64 ish degree headangle etc for that.

If money was no object I think I would also get a 140/130 trail bike - preferably one a few lbs lighter than what I have - for the big days out in terms of mileage.

riding both the heckler and 4x bike were fine as it was only local xc just a bit slower although I only ride for fun. Didn't really notice the extra weight. The 4x bike although burley is actually quite light and is good for general riding too. It's very similar to hardcore hardtails of today although it has a 69 degree head angle.

I'd just say look for something with a bit less travel than your patriot and maybe airsprung, possibly consider a 29er? OP...

I've recently picked up an older Stumpy evo 29er: 140mm front/135mm rear travel and I'm pretty pleased with it. It'll roll along nicely enough to cover some miles and handles itself well enough with rough stuff, jumps and "gnarr". That's after a couple of years of riding HTs, preceded by several longer travel, coil sprung bikes. Sometimes it's nice to lug about a bit less machinery but still have some bounce in the back...

If you like oranges perhaps look at a five? They're popular in the UK for a reason...

Patriot is air sprung. It's the last model year of the old ones, in XC build.

2007 Marin Quake with Coil 66’s up front, weighed around 40lbs!  May a happy XC ride, bloody mindedly spinning up the Sarf Downs.

“I’d only take a long travel bike.when I specifically want to do the big descents. I just don’t want it to take so long.”

In that case I can heartily recommend my Levo. 160mm fork, 150mm rear travel, long-ish and slack-ish. And you’ll get everywhere far faster than your XC bike will manage, thanks to the motor! 😉

you just need a fs trail/endure bike that's fun to ride at slower speeds and not to worry about the extra time. Doubt you will find an acceptable compromise on the tyres front as you like the steeper stuff although some will ride faster than others.

Maybe put some more air in your aggro tyres for a faster ride.

Things you need before you worry too much about geo/travel

1) A light frame (carbon it is then)
2) Light strong wheels (ally if you're carbophobic)
3) Long travel dropper post (so UP is right up, and down is right down)
4) Good quality suspension, with ideally some lock outs

And then the one that imo, really makes the biggest difference, and yet is always going to be a compromise - tyres! The question becomes: "how light /slick a tyre can i fit to make the uphill bits easier, before i fall off / puncture the whole time going down" Here, there is little that tech can do to help, although some tyres try to combine low central rolling resistance with aggressive side knobs for grip (which only work if you remember to lean the bike in the turns....)

For me, i HATE punctures, and HATE skidding down hill out-of-control with both wheels locked up, so i generally build the lightest bike i can afford, but then fit heavy, grippy tyres, and put up with the drag.

I certainly don't really think that 20mm of travel here or there actually makes much difference (given that your legs have feet of travel (sic) themselves. One thing i do try to have though is two sets of wheels, fitted with different tyres, to allow me to make a choice before any given ride as to the best flavour of tyre to run for that individual ride. So, i it's mainly an upwards, low gnarcore type XC tour, i'll grab the lightweight wheels with the more XC tyres fitted, but if it's a winch up, smash it down affair the heavy wheels with the SuperGravity tyres go on!

My mate bought a capra, 160/160mm bike. It was carbon and light ish, but he always seemed to get dragged slower on it. He's since changed it to a white 13/120mm bike and much prefers it.

I went for a 140/130 bike and it's been great up and down hill. It was super at whistler with the fork extended to 160mm.

My answer for the peaks, Scotland, lakes, trail centers and the odd holiday is a geometron 🙂

My answer for the peaks, Scotland, lakes, trail centers and the odd holiday is a geometron

I part agree with this and part diss agree.

I've got a G13 29er and a G16 27.5er
They're both more than capable in the steep tech but the G13 is so much better on Alpine climbs. While the G16 is great for smashing more hi speed DH runs
The thing you need to focus on is the shape of the bike rather than the travel.
Slack and long with short travel is what you will appreciate most for S Wales off piste trails.

Orange segment, managed 100 miles in 11 hours at this year's twenty-four 12.

Orange segment, managed 100 miles in 11 hours at this year's twenty-four 12.

A demon on descents.

And then the one that imo, really makes the biggest difference, and yet is always going to be a compromise – tyres!

I suspect this tbh. Sure the bike has its foibles climbing and the position makes me want to spin rather than hammer up, but that wouldn't really account for slowness once I get used to it.

But they aren't mega beefy downhill tyres, just Hans Danmpf tubeless.

Which are draggy AF for XC

So what should I look at for large tyres with reasonable grip for soft loamy type trails that will be less draggy than HD? In 26?

“So what should I look at for large tyres with reasonable grip for soft loamy type trails that will be less draggy than HD? In 26?”

I like the DHR2 2.3 Exo Dual compound on the back for everything. It’ll be slowest and least grippy in 26” (if that size exists), fastest and grippiest in 29”. Foam inserts help in the rocks. The same tyre in a 2.4 is much more gnarly and slow rolling.

Sorry to say a change of tyres aren't going to make you fastest down the trails at Pontypool and also over a 100K loop over the Beacons.*

*or even a change of bike...

shit bike with shit tyres and shit rider isn't ever going to be particularly quick or skillful anywhere.
Stop worrying about it.
it's tedious AF

BOOM! Geex is in the house...

Having ridden some of the more well-known steep-off piste trails in those parts, you don’t really need a lot of travel, more the right angles and low standover/as long a dropper as you can fit for the steep.

I’ve done some 1000m descent days, with some localish riders on Whyte s-150 or t-130’s in the Wylie and Tirpentwys areas while I was on my Bird AM9, and they weren’t slowed down or holding back! Some of the newer slack XC bikes like the SC Tallboy, or the Yeti SB-100 would probably be ok if they have low standover and you’re not planning to ride that stuff for the whole ride?

Sorry to say a change of tyres aren’t going to make you fastest down the trails at Pontypool and also over a 100K loop over the Beacons.*

Where did you get that from?

I want to go quicker because I'm time limited, it turns a 3hr ride into a 4hr ride at which point it starts to get too long to fit into my day.

Patriot is air sprung. It’s the last model year of the old ones, in XC build.

Patriot 66? wasn't that a ~160mm travel bike? XC build/air shock or not, that is always going to wallow a bit.

I suppose the question you're really asking is can you use your current bike for mile munching and Gnarr?

And the answer is probably yes life might be better with some adaptations fo course, consider a newer shock with some vol reducers and perhaps a low speed compression switch to flip for climbs there should be one about in your required size, and look at some more sensible tyre (weight and Drag wise)...

of course you're going to want to put the heftier kit and (assuming its plusher) the old shock back on for uplift days or whatever, which essentially means swapping stuff about, which will get old and you're mind will eventually turn to wanting a new bike and for what you describe yourself as wanting My shortlist include a Whyte T129, Bird AM9, a stumpy Evo and as you already have an orange a stage 5, all 29ers

I want to go quicker because I’m time limited, it turns a 3hr ride into a 4hr ride at which point it starts to get too long to fit into my day.

You are talking to Geex and have just recited one of the main justifications for an E-bike... Do you want an E-bike? Because that's what He's going to recommend next...

Patriot 66? wasn’t that a ~160mm travel bike? XC build/air shock or not, that is always going to wallow a bit.

Patriot 7+ with 170mm travel, and 66 SL ATA on the front. It does wallow around on tech climbs but I can ignore this. It's the spinning up fire roads that takes forever. Thinking about it, it's likely a combination of riding position (seat angle is about 72), tyres and the fact I'm just not used to flats.

I'm considering getting rid, so the question is what replaces it? On the face of it, any Enduro bike, but I've no idea what they are like to ride in XC mode which is necessary to get to the trails that it'd be bought for.

And I'm not averse to E bikes except on cost grounds.

Hightower?

I had no problem riding my Trek Slash from Cardiff to Dreathen Woods yesterday if that's of any help. Good few laps an all.

TBH anything's going to go faster than a Patriot. And I speak from experience.

Any of the modern crop of trail/enduro bikes (140-160mm travel) should be fine - lock out the shock and fork and pump up the tyres for the road/XC stuff, then unlock and let a bit of air out for the fun stuff. Lock them out again for the ride home. Job's a good 'un.

Canyon strive with the shapeshifter tech? 130mm rear on the road/XC then a 160mm enduro rig on the downs.

130mm-150mm light full sus ought to fit the bill. I personally don't want that much travel for my local trails and don't do much trail centre/gnarly stuff these days, so my choice of bike is a Cotic Flare.

130mm travel Fox 34mm forks, X fusion shock, 150mm dropper, not a particularly light build, but it doesn't weigh a ton and does everything I ask of it incredibly well. 650b just works for me as an all round wheel size for a bit of everything, and I do like 29ers. I keep thinking I want/need a 29er XC bike as it'd be faster on some of my local terrain/rides. But I've been there twice before and the Flare really is the sweet spot for me, it pedals well, zips along the flat, is good on the ups and flatters me on the downs. Added bonus is that I don't feel beaten to shit after rides on the open hill where it's bumpy AF and a hardtail gives you some serious stick. And, no it's not all technique, you have to sit and pedal on a lot of that bumpy crap.

Watch this:

...then go an buy a Genius.

It's always going to be a bit slower, but if you swap out the rear for something in a faster compound that should speed you up a bit. I was running MM front and rear (trailstar/Addix soft) and switching the rear to a NN in Addix speedgrip made a fair difference, without making any significant difference to how you can ride it down descents.

(It's on a Speicialized Stumpy Evo 29er, so 135/140mm of relative heft. I've done 10UTB solo on it with faster tyres on as I knew the HT would beat me up too much. So I certainly don't beat your Patriot, but I'd happily ride that if it was what I had and it fitted me.)

I've got a 2017 Five and 2016 P7 - pretty much interchangeable in terms of what they can handle, which is pretty much everything (apart from jumps, which I don't do anyway). I use both for 20-35 milers, on moorland single track, Lakes epics, steep technical cheeky trails in Calderdale and the Lakes. I'd happily ride either in the Alps too, though the P7 would beat me up too much nowadays if I rode it all day, day after day. I always used to ride Patriots until around 5 or 6 years ago when I bought my first Five. My current Five is the most fun and versatile bike I've owned, set up with 150mm 36s and decent Maxxis tyres. Weighs around 30-31lb all in.

How do NNs compare to HDs?

Patriot 7+!!!??!

Awesome, but that is most definately a "Mini DH" bike.
You are lugging about too much metal with a DH bias, it's certainly not an "XC" bike...

So if it's a new bike is budget a factor, would you be looking used, and will sir be keeping the old Patriot for Uplift and Alpine smashing duties to save the new dandyhorse?

I would say don't focus on the travel too much, anything in the 120-150mm ballpark can be made to suit the mileage and trails fun application.
Despite getting on well with my stumpy I do struggle to ignore the AM9 as a VFM Gnarr capable trail bike not a million miles away from what I am already riding but with just a bit more Grrrrr to it... YMMV of course.

If you're looking 2nd hand there are probably a lot of decent options about depending on wheel size preferences, which brands and suspension layouts you'll consider...

fuel ex? 2017-19. some cheap ones about. the blurb says it'd work on your stuff anyway
yes i have just bought one, or a frame anyway

marin rift zone?

it’s certainly not an “XC” bike

No I know, I already have one of those that I use weekly. This is for the occasional ride seeking out the hard stuff.

So if it’s a new bike is budget a factor, would you be looking used, and will sir be keeping the old Patriot for Uplift and Alpine smashing duties to save the new dandyhorse?

No, I'd be replacing it with something that's similar capabilities (or even better, based on improvements to geometry) but is better at riding along and up. TBH given the rocky trails I sometimes have to climb just bigger wheels would help a lot.

You're probably right about the travel. What I like about it is the whole package - big grippy tyres, flats (I do my XC riding in SPDs), mega brakes (Hope V2s) slack angles and so on. It has adjustable geo and I run it in the slack setting too which lowers the CoG. It does ride along and up much better in the steeper setting but it's nowhere near as much fun on the descents.

As for too much metal - it's 'only' about 31lbs.

I would have to replace it with a s/h bike, I might be looking around the £1k mark. The bike is so old it's just not upgradeable in any meaningful sense.

I think you and Weeksy should throw all your spare parts in a bin, have a few beers together and will eventually both build yourselves the bikes you can't name out of each others hopes & dreams.

I mean that kindly coming from a former Indecisive. 😉

I might take out out on my local loop to time myself. Usually takes 1h10 if I take it easy and my PB is 1h01 (annoyingly) but from memory it's about 1h25 on the Patriot.

I mean that kindly coming from a former Indecisive.

Heh. I'm not actually indecisive when it comes to this stuff - just window shopping, it won't be for ages yet.

I replaced a 2013 Five with a long, slack 130/120mm 29er (FlareMax). It's faster along and up while being even more capable and confidence inspiring on the way back down. The only thing it's not as good at is super tight turns, but since I ride mainly natural Scottish tracks I don't see any downsides.

Personally, in your situation, I'd be looking for:

29er - I know some prefer smaller wheels but if you are looking for speed along and up then it's hard to deny that they roll over stuff more easily.

Slack - More confidence/capability on the way down at the expense of not being quite as good in super tight situations.

Shortish travel - I know longer travel bikes climb a lot better than they used to but shorter should still be faster along and up.

I use a 28.5lbs Mondraker Foxy XR Carbon for both Enduro and XC. That's with 2.6R and 2.8F NN. It's neither optimised for one or the other but it's really good at both and makes my 1 bike cycling life simpler.

I use a Bird Aeris 145. Does everything for me, even did the South Downs Way in a day back in July.
I just run 2 wheelsets and swap linkages, so 145mm travel and Hunt trail wide wheels for "xc" and 160mm and DT Swiss E1700 (the most bombproof wheels I've ever used) for uplifts etc.