Ah well, no money for the rest of SoS then.
Is this the end result of the £5m funding bid for the 7 Stanes that we were surveyed about last month then?
Surely not?
49 pages in the masterplan document and from what I can see it seems to be suggesting building a cabin site and some landscaping. Need another read as I suspect there is a lot more to it (or there should be!)...
Need another read as I suspect there is a lot more to it (or there should be!)…
building a cabin site and some landscaping.
It mentions a new access road to the top carpark in the linked page, a and a few new bridges that alone will swallow about 90% of the funding.
All new visitor facilities too (Shop/cafe etc.) . Didn't see any new trail plans which is what i was looking for mind.
16km of new trails.
I can't help feel that building a bunch of cabins on the site will change it fundamentally. Low rent CentreParcs?
Weren't the cabins planned a few years ago? They were gonna be glamping accomm around where Zoom or Bust is IIRC?
Or are these different cabins?
Isn’t this just the one from a few years back where they’re flattening they freeride park and Zoom or Bust, then building a load of chalets?
From memory they were building a new skills area at the Peel car park and maybe a new blue descent.
Edit: too late , but at least I was remembering correctly.
*fist bumps Clubby*
Hopefully a clued-up local will be along shortly to clarify matters further.
cabins are good. Good because Airbnb is often bad for communities, and loads of visitors that just rock up, ride some trails and leave also are not helping the cause for sustainable MTB in the valley. Cabins will provide accommodation for all kinds of visitors (including bikers) that doesn't absorb housing stock, while allowing for people to stay and spend which provides jobs for people in the valley.
Reminds me of when they "improved" Glentress with the current facilities and didn't allow the amazing Emma and Tracy to stay. Best post ride bacon rolls and coffee ever in that there portacabin.
It's "progress", and I am possibly a curmudgeon... 🤠
Is this the end result of the £5m funding bid for the 7 Stanes that we were surveyed about last month then?
Surely not?
As said above, this announcement is unrelated to the recent survey / potential funding bid.
This announcement was originally made five or six or more years ago. I remember riding the Glentress 7 at the time and there being a general feeling that it would be pretty much the last time zoom or bust could be ridden. Then nothing happened for a couple of years, then Scottish government made a big announcement about putting money, I think £1 million, in to it as part of supporting rural economies or some such. then nothing happened again. I personally assumed that it had been shelved or abandoned but apparently not!
From what I remember before, it was mostly building a load of chalets where the freeeide area & buzzards nest car park is now. A new freeride / skills area was to be built next to the cafe alongside an extended green / blue route also at the bottom of the hill.
sas78
Full MemberReminds me of when they “improved” Glentress with the current facilities and didn’t allow the amazing Emma and Tracy to stay.
From memory they made a complete arse of their bid and were turfed out accordingly.
Anyway, yeah this is the plan the kicked off a few years back:
- Flatten current freeride/skills area
- New road up
- Chalets
- New freeride/skills area at the bottom
Moving the skills area to the bottom of the hill makes a lot of sense to me. No issue with the cabins either. Just hope the work doesn't drag on too long as I imagine we'll lose trails before gaining any
IIRC I think that the cabins development was supposed to fund (or help fund) the new trails and facilities. FLS has previously emphasised that replacement trails would be put in place before existing trails are removed so hopefully that will still be the case.
Relocating the main jump trails to nearer the visitor centre and the road has been a goal for some time I think.
Its the same old project that was proposed years ago- new visitor stuff and freeride skills area at the bottom, new blue, red black and "natural" descent on the hill behind the FC building and the holiday cabins. Buzzards carpark, berm baby berm and zoom or bust likely to vanish along with the existing skills and freeride areas.
The cabins are Forest Holidays, similar to Strathyre- quick look at the web suggests £2k+ for a week..
In theory, great- but I'm not convinced by moving the skills area out of the forest itself, and I wonder if this will also kill off the new Glentress Uplift service.
Maybe I'm just being too cynical in thinking that the 16km of 'new trails' may just be them making the unofficial trails official and adopting them into their trail network...
Fairly sure all of the new road work that the black spits out on (Ponduro road) was for drainage and access as a starting point for this master plan but could be mistaken!
We're there not also shops to service the chalets so no need to take hard earned cash and spend it in the town.
stevemtb Free Member
Maybe I’m just being too cynical in thinking that the 16km of ‘new trails’ may just be them making the unofficial trails official and adopting them into their trail network…
That was definitely not the plan, they're getting a trailbuilding company in to design and build the new trails and some of them will be going down the hillside near the visitor centre that FLS only acquired a few years ago.
The DMBinS post mentioned Back on Track putting the new trails in, is that Rowan Sorrell's firm?
The DMBinS post mentioned Back on Track putting the new trails in, is that Rowan Sorrell’s firm?
Yes indeed; was originally supposed to go ahead in the spring of 2021, before the contract collapsed due to issues between the Scottish Government and the overarching contractor who had apparently become somewhat greedy (Balfour Beatty if I remember correctly?)
The loss of the contract had a major impact on Back on Track; not only had the company invested vast amounts of time and effort into surveying and designing the trails and negotiating the details, but had scheduled in the work and bought additional plant in preparation, the fallout left staff without work (or updates) for months on end.
However, hopefully lessons have been learned and the newly rebranded On Track can put their experience and expertise to good use
If it's done right it could be a net gain but it does all revolve around losing the perfect "hub" that is the buzzard's nest. Which is the bit I just don't understand, it surely can't be the only place the cabins could be put? It's got a road to it, but the plans seem to involve rebuilding that anyway. And it's not even the nicest bit of the glentress forest.
But yep there are plans nailed to plans here, the building of a new skills area is massively overdue, and relocating the jumps to the bottom would be a big positive both for family access, and for ambulances.
To me it feels like it wouldn't take an awful lot of changes to make it really good news, but instead it's probably a fairly even mix of good and bad.
What it's definitely not, is sucking up money that was supposed to go elsewhere but I know there's little chance of convincing anyone of that.
It’s pretty awesome as it is.
Seems like a total waste, why not just add a load of cabins next to where there are already cabins and fix the potholes in the road that already exists?
Maybe add a swimming pool, showers and other facilities next to the cabins to make them more popular.
If it’s done right it could be a net gain but it does all revolve around losing the perfect “hub” that is the buzzard’s nest. Which is the bit I just don’t understand, it surely can’t be the only place the cabins could be put?
That's the bit (well, one bit) I'm struggling with too - the buzzards nest area is awesome, just hanging out there for a snack or bit of lunch with the kids is great. Bikes everywhere, folk mucking around on the 'box', etc. I jokingly made the comment its the true reincarnation of the old 'Hub In The Forest', but it's somewhat true.
It's a big forest. **** off and locate the cabins in another part of it.
If there’s any change leftover can Mabie get a new hose for the bike wash?
Not much on the planning portal maybe new trails. But nothing on new roads etc. So it'll be a fair while yet unless it goes through with a little help. But I'd say the sepa and ecological surveys will be extensive.
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I don't understand killing off Buzzards Nest either, the only thing it needs is a toilet block, maybe a roll/coffee van and it would be sorted.
Presumably the existing cabins and camping are a seperate entity? If not why couldn't the hill above them get built on? They could put hook ups and waste points in whilst they're at it.
It does explain the broken, never repaired bits of the Freeride area though. It does need a refresh tbh.
Relying on vague memory here, but were the new cabins to be installed and operated by an external provider? And were they more like luxury chalets than basic pods?
They'll have had to make it an appealing proposition to their commercial partner, hence the prime site.
I'm sure many of us will have mixed feelings as we ride up past these new holiday places though.
Where will the new skills area be then?
Yup proper cabins rather than camping pods. Can’t remember the proposal (sure someone will dig it out) but I’d imagine the normal trails will skirt round the accommodation areas.
New skills area will be beside the cafe. Makes much more sense to me, and will certainly help business at the cafe
The new cabins are Forest Holidays, definitely more luxury chalets than pods.
Reminds me of when they “improved” Glentress with the current facilities and didn’t allow the amazing Emma and Tracy to stay. Best post ride bacon rolls and coffee ever in that there portacabin.
I remember them, real shame they didn't stay on.
Also reminds me of the CyB upgrade where they removed the old small cafe on the Redbull side and replaced it with a soulless motorway service station on the other side. I can see why they wanted something larger, but the old one was lovely and the new one is just meh....
I don’t understand killing off Buzzards Nest either, the only thing it needs is a toilet block, maybe a roll/coffee van and it would be sorted.
It makes a lot of sense from a business perspective. The bottom of the hill has those facilities already. It has a visitor centre already.
Move the skills area etc down the hill, you reduce traffic going up the road which makes it easier to maintain & better for non car users.
You keep more users at the bottom of the hill where they're more likely to spend some money in the cafe etc. that they don't when they're at buzzards'.
Parking up at Buzzards is often terrible because people are unable/unwilling to make the climb up so they abandon their cars, moving the reasons to be at Buzzards down the hill fixes that too.
Litter, bins, etc all move down the hill where they're more readily dealt with.
The cabins don't need any of the additional facilities you mention so there's no need to site them near them and there's no need to build them.
Access to Buzzards Nest is already there for construction traffic.
Once the skills area etc have gone it can be more readily landscaped and made to look pretty for the cabins. Access to those once finished is already there so doesn't need a new road junction and all that that entails.
squirrelking Free Member
Presumably the existing cabins and camping are a seperate entity? If not why couldn’t the hill above them get built on? They could put hook ups and waste points in whilst they’re at it.
I think that the existing camping pods at the bottom of the hill are indeed a separate entity, I maybe that land is owned by a farmer who saw an excellent opportunity to make more money off it.
I think that generally a lot of the land above the existing camping pods isn't part of what FLS owns - the edge of the forest is very close to the walking and MTB trails there. I think that a lot of the funding for this whole project comes from the leasing income FLS will get from the company running the cabins, so they need to be on FLS land.
From memory they made a complete arse of their bid and were turfed out accordingly.
Was it not that they were realistic but the FC at the time went with the proposal that promised more income? Which didn't happen, and so the tender moves on every 2 years to another average provider.
Anyway, I'm sure that's been done to death elsewhere.
Was it not that they were realistic but the FC at the time went with the proposal that promised more income?
The FC provided the numbers iirc, they put in their own. They probably were more realistic but you can’t just ignore the brief and expect it to go well
You’re right though, been done elsewhere and we’re now dangerously close to being told how good the (small, damp, good luck getting inside any day you need to be inside) portacabins of The Hub used to be
Looks very disappointing to me. It’s clearly about extracting money from families and not that interested in mountain biking. I will stick to the off piste and riding in inners
Can't figure out where a new, presumably tarmac, road will go to access the chalets.
Presumably the trails will be away from the chalets too. So berm baby berm and the ones down to skills loop possibly surviving. Riding traffic and chalet traffic will need to be separated so the long road drag up to the bench at the bottom of spooky climb?
Can’t figure out where a new, presumably tarmac, road will go to access the chalets
I'd be very surprised if it is tarmac, I've been to a couple of the forest lodges sites and they're not at those, can't see this one being any different.
Riding traffic and chalet traffic will need to be separated
No more than it is currently, there will be less traffic to the chalets than the carpark too.
Given that the existing access road is often closed during winter when it's snowy or icy, that would limit access to these new cabins. Unless they are going to build a tarmac road that can be gritted or allow a snow plough
Is that because they can't keep it open or just don't bother though Bob? Currently they've no reason to keep it clear I should think. (there's also the road up Janet's brae which, oif the other sites are anything to go by seems more likely, They prefer to keep the entrance separated, stops the great unwashed tailgating through the barrier and the like)
Can’t figure out where a new, presumably tarmac, road will go to access the chalets.
Presumably the trails will be away from the chalets too.
From memory, it's to be the same road to Buzzards, which will become the carpark for the site and no public access, with an access barrier just past the Go Ape cabin.
As for the trails, I asked the staff at the consultation event several years ago. They had no clue that there were even trails in that area, which speaks volumes. The maps being bandied about at the time suggested Blue Velvet, Berm Baby Berm and Zoom or Bust were all within the area being built upon.
I'd also hazard a guess that with no parking at the top, the Upper Green is unlikely to be restored, as who's going to take kids from the bottom carpark all that way to ride a green?
I'd be interested to see how much of the existing network is being lost to this development, and how realistic the 16km figure for the new trails is.
and how realistic the 16km figure for the new trails is.
How long is it possible to make the climb up various fire roads that only need signage...
I imagine a big chunk of that 16km will be green trail(s) out of the bottom carpark because that's what families want, and they're what pay the bills. Pure guess work mind.
the Upper Green is unlikely to be restored, as who’s going to take kids from the bottom carpark all that way to ride a green?
Equally if that's where I think it is, that's exactly the sort of thing that attracts people to stay in the forest lodges so I can well imagine it being restored/new one built up near the lodges.
Which is sort of good, because if no one payed they'd probably take a much less enlightened attitude to the unofficial trail building.
There's a map of the new trails in Masterplan doc, 16km is possibly rather more than optimistic. There was never any information about trails beyond the hill directly behind the Peel at any consultation or planning, so that would appear to be the sum total of new development.
The Upper Green is the one past the existing skills loop, heading for Peebles, and is currently well borked after Arwen. I hope it is repaired, but have my doubts.
The "new car park management" page with it's spurious "benefits" suggests it'll be some hateful app-based system.
Saying that, the machines in the current car park did seem a bit shonky when I was last there.
Riding traffic and chalet traffic will need to be separated
I wonder if there's projections about the holiday makers at all? If it becomes a popular destination with non biking families, and I can't see that it wouldn't, then will it start to create conflict between non mountain biking holidaymakers? Who may see the trails and decide they'd make nice walking paths for instance, or just don't want to be sharing their quiet forest holiday with "hooligan" bikers - you all know how this goes...The folks paying the most cash will get the biggest say.
Berm baby berm going? Do these people even ride bikes? That’s got to be one of the most fun and accessible trails in the whole of the UK. ****ing idiots…
mtnboarder Full Member
As for the trails, I asked the staff at the consultation event several years ago. They had no clue that there were even trails in that area, which speaks volumes. The maps being bandied about at the time suggested Blue Velvet, Berm Baby Berm and Zoom or Bust were all within the area being built upon.
That's surprising, one of the MTB rangers for Glentress and the surrounding area has been very much up to speed about the plans when I've talked to him about them and the rangers seem to have been heavily involved in identifying what trails would be affected. As I mentioned earlier he was emphatic that any trails being decommissioned would get replacements and that the replacements would be in place before the old trails were removed. I hope that principle hasn't changed over the past couple of years of delays.
mtnboarder Full Member
As for the trails, I asked the staff at the consultation event several years ago. They had no clue that there were even trails in that area, which speaks volumes. The maps being bandied about at the time suggested Blue Velvet
TBH the only volumes that speaks, is that they'd send someone to the consultation event who hadn't a clue (I went to a careers event at Peebles High School and they sent people who could talk about forestry careers but had no idea that there were bike trails in the FC forests in the borders!).
the Upper Green is unlikely to be restored
Have you seen it lately? It's absolutely destroyed. Probably the worst I've seen post Arwen. I don't imagine they'll ever ben able to bring it back
I really hope that everything is replaced, the consultations were 8 years ago! It would be great if the plans were published somewhere, anybody got a contact at the trailbuilding company?
Removing the heart around buzzards nest is a huge mistake. Plenty of room around. Commercialising / privatising even worse. It also means any trip has to start with that tedious slog up the hill.
The current facilities are nice buildings in the wrong place (cafe facing the side of hill? Well done) can’t see adding to it is going to create anything more than empty units.
If this is done well it could be a big positive for the widest range of user groups (many of whom are not, or not yet, bikers). Strength comes from quality and diversity of offer.
If it is done badly, it will rip the heart out of the place.
The main aims are to provide accessible facilities at the base of the forest, reduce vehicular traffic (& potential conflict) in the forest, and to diversify into accommodation.
In the UK we need to learn from places that do this well. cf. Whistler. Nevis is good, but essentially has no variety, and a pretty high competency bar to access the trails. It is orders of magnitude below Whistler. To generate multiple repeat visits there needs to be a variety of trails at all grades, retaining the ability to close some sections (repair, etc) without a significant detriment to the overall network.
An observation is that GT is very up-up-up, down-down-down, even the easier trails. It would benefit from some trails similar to the Minotaur trail at CyB, which is a stacked-loop Blue graded trail.
Removing the heart around buzzards nest
What heart? There's nothing there.
They're selling a thing, what's being bought at buzzards?
will it start to create conflict between non mountain biking holidaymakers?
Maybe. But let's not look for the negatives, eh?
will it start to create conflict between non mountain biking holidaymakers?
Not on a cold Wednesday night in January.
Or alternatively, let's plan things so that any conflict is minimised? I'm generally an optimist, but it's an obvious failure point given the history in this country between groups who are forced to share leisure space; who see access to;and use of that space in wildly different ways.
Saying that, the machines in the current car park did seem a bit shonky when I was last there.
Haven't worked for the best part of 2 years, probably more.
Berm baby berm going? Do these people even ride bikes? That’s got to be one of the most fun and accessible trails in the whole of the UK. ****ing idiots…
My thoughts too, my missus and daughter loved Berm Baby Berm.
What heart? There’s nothing there.
Except all the riders that congregate there. You know, the natural centre and meeting point rather than the soulless Crieff Hydro franchise with great views of **** all and something that looks like a horror set behind it.
dangeourbrain
Full MemberWhat heart? There’s nothing there.
Except people, and the start and end and middle of rides. It's not by design and it's not really exploited but the buzzard's nest is a natural hub. I mean, it doesn't even need to be a car park, what really matters is having a centre that you can build varied rides out of. A hub, dare I say it. It's a huge strength of GT.
I suppose this is for the oldies.
Way back in the mists of time. I seem to remember the trails coming down from what is now the black to what would be the car park.
Instead of cutting right off the boundary for deliverance etc you went straight on to the next hill top. Am I misremembering? Maybe 1990s.
IIRC. the only trail that's going to be lost is Zoom Or Bust. Although there may be a way to divert or rework it. Berm Baby Berm should be ok although there was talk about moving the start point closer to Cool Runnings.
Car park to go to make room for more building.
Actually the more I look at the master plan the more issues I see. I have no idea how it got through planning and can guarantee that it'll neither look nor operate as promised.
Except people, and the start and end and middle of rides.
Except all the riders that congregate there.
I dare say a lot of that is because that's where they park, the middle of rides might stay there but start and end won't. GT might be an exception but the car parks in most places are full of people meeting at the start and end of rides, walks, sitting in cars reading their phones whilst their dog is ignored for half an hour etc.
The bike park area helps but if I'm not mistaken, that's moving to another [same] location (with a car park) anyway.
Move the carpark, you'll move the people and that "heart" will move just fine.
It sounds like the 2023 World Champs XC is going to be at Glentress and will probably be using some of these new trails. The press release hinted at this too. I assumed it would be at Cathkin but sounds like its not. Will look forward to that! At least it should ensure some interesting features get built if its to be worthy of the World Champs.
I would expect champs-only sections and features to be build then taken down again. Still cool to have the race there though
I would expect champs-only sections and features to be build then taken down again. Still cool to have the race there though
The stuff at Dalby stayed for years, shame a lot of it like the board walk fell out of use.
I would expect champs-only sections and features to be build then taken down again.
Why?
I dare say a lot of that is because that’s where they park, the middle of rides might stay there but start and end won’t.
Buzzards Nest is a good start because that's where all the trails are, barring a blast down to Peel at the end of the day on whatever trail takes your fancy there is no real reason to be there barring the cludgies. The trails up are a non-event (unless you really want that extra climb with no technical merit) and are only a feeder to Buzzards. Just look at a trail map, it's the natural centre, Peel is the equivalent of parking up at Torlundy for Nevis (measure it) and just as sensible.
Bring back the log skinnies on the climb!
Why?
Because they can put in any features they want without fear of some mincer nailing themselves and trying to sue (MVdP excluded)
As far as I remember, the worlds xc was planned for Cathkin with the xc marathon at gt..
dangeourbrain
Full MemberMove the carpark, you’ll move the people and that “heart” will move just fine.
Maybe we're not explaining it well- the buzzard's nest is in the middle. The bottom car park is on the edge. Being able to drive into the heart of the trails and then choose rides around it is way more useful than driving to the edge and ending at the edge. The way you can mix up GT trails is one of the things that's kept it popular despite the low level of new trails.
Hubs work better when they're not on the rim
Agree with the thinking but I never do that as it means ending with a climb back there...so I get the climb out the way first (but can't see anything by the time I get to Buzzards so no idea if I'm alone of surrounding by riders!
Buzzards nest is also perfect for kids to start at. loads of stuff around that they can ride without having to climb too much
You lot should try to see the bright side here. Think how awesome it'll be for little Tarquin and Jocasta when they're staying at the luxury lodges that are going to be built there.
Having the kids/skills/free ride area in the middle of the trail network brings everything together. The new layout almost completely separates them from the trails, brining with it a barrier of sorts between the learning/play areas and the riding areas.
But all this discussion is years too late, hopefully things will be better than I expect and we don’t lose too many trails in the process
I'm pretty sure all this discussion was had way back when first talked about and also during the consultation that was held at Glentress...none of this is new, but it doesn't appear to have altered any considerations - so either they know they are on to an absolute winner; they are hoping this is a winner; or they really don't care what the public that use the area already think as it had already been decided and the public consultation was simple a box ticking exercise.
GT confirmed as location for both XCO and Marathon XC World Champs!
https://dmbins.com/blog/mountain-bike-cross-country-marathon-2023-uci-cycling-world-championships-venue-announcement-glentress-to-host/
"The new developments will include a new skills area, new trails and trail features, and are all being taken forward as part of our Glentress Masterplan, bringing 45 miles of mountain bike trails up to national and international race specifications."
Whatever that entails!
I emailed FLS asking for some concrete info on what's actually being built and what's being lost to the development but have been studiously ignored so far.
Good to see ESO are in there in some capacity though!
