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To me this reads as if applying to all their production, not just products branded “Giant”.
Which other brands to they handle the manufacturing for these days?
Just in case anyone thought it was just some MAGA politicking….
Well, now I'm even gladder I didn't buy a giant recently.
I have always wondered how the Taiwanese can produce stuff at such low cost. Disappointing that the answer isn't just economies of scale.
Well, that's enlightening, and also depressing.
Thanks also for the link to Le Monde diplomatique - some very interesting articles from a source I've never seen before.
Well, now I'm even gladder I didn't buy a giant recently.
Or Merida, Bianchi, Canyon, Scott, Specialized, Trek, Pinarello, it would seem from the article. Or Maxxis tyres. Depressing.
Well, now I'm even gladder I didn't buy a giant recently.
Not just their own stuff though. They have built frames for Trek, Scott and Colnago, as well as own brand components for lots of brands. If it was lower price and alloy, there’s a good chance it came out of a Giant factory.
I genuinely thought this was just an inconvenient truth that people accepted tbh. 🙁 to be clear, it's in no way acceptable IMO, but to think that anything made in Asia doesn't carry a moral weight around the labour is likely kidding yourself.
However, the fact it's being raised as an issue now seems absolutely politically motivated.
However, the fact it's being raised as an issue now seems absolutely politically motivated.
Right action, for the wrong reasons perhaps? If it gets Giant et al to change their practices, maybe it's a good thing.
That article is very good and a new source of news so thanks for sharing. Maxxis being on the list had me thinking time to switch to Conti, then bloody hell, Conti rock up in the article. Do they still manufacture myb tyres in Germany?
Which ethical rubber supplier to choose then?
Panaracer?
Just in case anyone thought it was just some MAGA politicking….
Thx for sharing, sometimes bad people (e.g. the Trump administration) end up doing good things. That's just how the world works.
But that's a very concerning article and I'm slightly puzzled why it's not come to wider attention before.
Whatever they say, we all know the cycling media can't rock the boat too much as they depend on advertising - but I'd have expected this to spread on social media and places like this forum, or even the national press.
Anyway, hopefully there will be more supply chain transparency in future.
Which ethical rubber supplier to choose then?
Compass Pass/René Herse?, perfectly niche 😉 but made by Panaracer in Japan.
I sometimes feel a bit like an apologist for Giant in this place, but by the sounds of things their business and recruitment practices are improving. How transparent that improvement is remains to be seen.
As has been said here already, there's a reason that so much of our stuff comes from a long way away and people in the Far East don't work for cheap because they want us to have nice stuff for less money. As business practices improve in one location, so the industry (most industries) will look to the next cheap source of questionable labour.
How many contributors will jump onto this thread to bash Giant? Of those, how many will have been on the thread extolling the bargain goods of Temu and AliExpress?
Anyone here saying 'Im glad I didn't buy a Giant' while riding some other Taiwanese made bike frame or product is fooling themselves - you have no idea under what conditions your product was made unless you have specific information about the conditions.
This adds to the Myanmar situation where Evil and Pivot were found to be making bikes in a factory that employed violence against workers who attempted to unionise.
There's a cost involved in allowing middle aged men to bumble around the woods on expensive (but affordable) push bikes but its the same for almost every product we own and use - clothes, white goods, etc etc.
As business practices improve in one location, so the industry (most industries) will look to the next cheap source of questionable labour.
Good point.
We've been hearing for years about how Taiwanese workers get a decent wage and bike manufacture is considered a skilled job there. But it seems that's not always the case.
I've noticed more prestige bikes getting made in Vietnam and China in recent years too, and there has to be a financial reason for that.
Anyone here saying 'Im glad I didn't buy a Giant' while riding some other Taiwanese made bike frame or product is fooling themselves
Absolutely. Seems like it could be an endemic issue and I have no idea where my carbon Orbea frame was made.
I'd feel more smug about my Halifax-made Orange frames, but they went bust and stiffed their suppliers IIRC.
Good report, the ugly truth of a lot of Asian manufacturing.
To Giant’s credit (for want of a better word), they are the only company, according to the article, to provide a response, recognise the issues or change practices.
There is no high horse to sit on here, for the majority of us at least, who are surrounded by and wearing stuff which will have similar back stories.
Interesting that migrant workers paying recruitment fees and living in poor conditions is not just a Taiwanese/Asian issue........
lets be honest here - is anyone actually surprised?
thats why its cost-effective to ship this stuff half way across the world and then sell it for a profit.
How many contributors will jump onto this thread to bash Giant? Of those, how many will have been on the thread extolling the bargain goods of Temu and AliExpress?
I don't know if it's "extolling the virtues" Just recognising the financial benefits and trade-offs (as a consumer). In all instances it is worth being aware that many (most?) products, manufactured in the Far-East are affected by poor/illegal labour practises that most of us would not accept here in the west (yet).
Those (like me) occasionally buying crap direct from AliExpress are at leas partly aware of the conditions over there, it can't be denied. Those paying some middlemen a bit more for a locally supported warranty and a recognised brand name on the downtube were maybe under the (false) impression that their purchase had a bit less exploitation and forced labour associated with it because they paid more... But are they really shocked to discover that wasn't the case?
I suppose the real question is, would people accept substantially higher prices and/or just buying fewer toys to be assured of a completely ethical supply chain?
And What multiplication factor of current prices would you accept?
To me this reads as if applying to all their production, not just products branded “Giant”.
That's how I read the summary. It seems to apply to anything from that specific company. What would be interesting is if the non Giant brands are actually made on the same sites by a different legal entity to the one named (even if it's under common control). In which case they might be getting through.
It is conceivable that this is an attempt to disrupt and hurt those volume US brands that produce overseas to the point where they return to US production.
I'd wager it has been 20 years+ since many of them had US based manufacturing and the lead time on skills, equipment and supply chain will be enough to cause very significant losses if a solution is not found.
"Whatever they say, we all know the cycling media can't rock the boat too much as they depend on advertising"
There's stories about this on PinkBike, BikeRadar, BikeRumour and Road.cc .....
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I've noticed more prestige bikes getting made in Vietnam and China in recent years too, and there has to be a financial reason for that.
I'd feel more smug about my Halifax-made Orange frames, but they went bust and stiffed their suppliers IIRC.
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Pretty sure I heard the shift to Vietnam (and Thailand, Laos, etc) is political and down to Western Governments (well, USA really) moving money away from Taiwan as China is getting it's claws in, or something like that? South East Asian countries are seen as less volatile and more open to Western influence. Might have been on The Rest is Politics?
As an avid Orange fan and someone considering another I'd love to know more details on the fall out of admin as I keep catching whispers of naughty stuff but non of it's evidenced or confirmed? I'd be less inclined to buy another if staff and suppliers were treated badly.
Do they still manufacture myb tyres in Germany?
The high end tyres are made in Germany, at least the GP5000 range anyway.
"Whatever they say, we all know the cycling media can't rock the boat too much as they depend on advertising"
There's stories about this on PinkBike, BikeRadar, BikeRumour andRoad.cc.....
This story has been widely picked up because it's the US Gov't actually doing something.
I was talking about the Le Monde piece linked above, which appears to have been published in Feb. Perhaps some cycling media did pick that up, but I didn't see anything (and TBH I wouldn't totally blame them for leaving it, as they wouldn't have the same legal support as Le Monde).
It is conceivable that this is an attempt to disrupt and hurt those volume US brands that produce overseas to the point where they return to US production.
I'd wager it has been 20 years+ since many of them had US based manufacturing and the lead time on skills, equipment and supply chain will be enough to cause very significant losses if a solution is not found.
That's my take on it. Basically, anything made in Taiwan will be a target. A lot of the manufacturing will be outsourced to contractors so the actual bike brand may (often willfully) have no knowledge or control of the working conditions.
The main issue, as I understand it from skimming that article, is that the immigrant workers owe money to agents back in their home countries. The Taiwanese manufacturers are paying recruiting agents to find workers, but the agents are abusive. I'm sure the companies line will be that they have no knowledge of all that, which is a bit hard to believe. Taiwanese companies will be hiring immigrant workers because there aren't enough locals willing to work at a wage to compete with Vietnam or China. If they can't hire those workers, the factories will move offshore, probably to places with even worse working conditions. Whatever the case, they won't be moving to the U.S., labour costs there are much too high to make entry level bikes at a competitive price.
^ pretty much. Duty rates also create changes in where products are made, the GSP system will give preferential rates to countries that need economic development.
Now I'm not excusing the low-wage manufacturing economy here .. but this point about forms of labour exploitation for cheaper products, it's kinda the same in the UK. e.g. we all want cheaper food. Supermarket staff earn min wage and so many are eligible for in work benefits. The Govt pays them benefits because the supermarkets say they have to raise prices if workers earn a realistic wage. So the taxes paid prop up a supressed labour force, the big business is subsidised and we all get cheap stuff while a small number at the top of those big businesses get wealthy enough to lobby the govt.
Capitalism is a scam that takes many forms, one form that is always true is that the lower down the earning scale you are the more you get screwed and it's ************ that's driven by greed at the top. Bikes, energy, food, all of it.
It’s the same manufacturing model that Dyson use, contact manufacturers in cheap countries who bring in even cheaper labour from places like Tibet, Laos etc. They live in dormitories and get shipped out as soon as the work drops off. American retailers like Costco have called them out on this and stopped accepting their products for a time.
As an avid Orange fan and someone considering another I'd love to know more details on the fall out of admin as I keep catching whispers of naughty stuff but non of it's evidenced or confirmed? I'd be less inclined to buy another if staff and suppliers were treated badly.
We're a very minor supplier to Orange. When they went onto administration we feared the worse but when they were resurrected they paid off the debt and also paid and received the components that we had just finished the day they went under. They continue to order from us too. Proforma now though.
Unfortunately we haven't been so lucky with other customers who went under.
It’s the same manufacturing model that Dyson use, contact manufacturers in cheap countries who bring in even cheaper labour from places like Tibet, Laos etc. They live in dormitories and get shipped out as soon as the work drops off.
It's not just Dyson, to some extent it's a significant amount of things made overseas.
If you go to China you'll see large factories that have recently opened and there's new dormitory villages and infrastructure built to support the labour force. They're like labour centres. The workers move around based on pay - after Chinese new year we used to commonly have issues at a bike factory based on a large number of workers who didn't come back after CNY, they went elsewhere for a bit more pay. Fair dues, why not? Much of these labour/debt bondage methods may be attempts to limit free market labour values for the benefit of large business profitability.
I think there's less of this in Taiwan ime than there is / may be other places, but my experiences are limited to a few companies and longer-term relationships with them. There's also companies with facilities across Asia (Taiwan/China/Vietnam/Cambodia is common) who may have different approaches based on local practices. At good bike factories I know of in places like Indonesia the labour supports local life in the way it would over here - many people in the factory have worked there 10+ years and most live locally and travel from home to work.
So it does vary. It's good to pay attention to how a factory labour is managed. That article describes a brand not being aware of this debt manipulation happening .. that's what audits and time in the factory are for FFS... 'Do your work'.
As an avid Orange fan and someone considering another I'd love to know more details on the fall out of admin as I keep catching whispers of naughty stuff but non of it's evidenced or confirmed? I'd be less inclined to buy another if staff and suppliers were treated badly.
We're a very minor supplier to Orange. When they went onto administration we feared the worse but when they were resurrected they paid off the debt and also paid and received the components that we had just finished the day they went under. They continue to order from us too. Proforma now though.
Good to know, cheers.
An update, of sorts:
"Giant Announces Plans to Repay Migrant Workers' Recruitment Fees"
https://www.pinkbike.com/news/giant-announces-plans-to-repay-migrant-workers-recruitment-fees.html