[Closed] Getting back in the saddle; what's new?!

Any advice for a returnee?

Don't spend too much to start with - try out as many mates bikes as you can too. Rediscover what style of riding you most enjoy and have access too.

The issue here is you may not have much choice with stock issues this year.

Where might you ride?
What riding do you enjoy - distance, gnar, steep, flow, trail centre, natural, Alps?
What is your riding style - keeping up with Aaron Gwinn, lecking about in the woods, or keeping it real and he who has most fun wins?

"Where might you ride?"

Epping Forest, nearest place. But I can travel to anywhere really, plus abroad of course. So anything from forests, to actual mountains.

"What riding do you enjoy – distance, gnar, steep, flow, trail centre, natural, Alps?"

As above; all round, more on the 'XC' side as they used to call it. But not full on XC race.

"What is your riding style – keeping up with Aaron Gwinn, lecking about in the woods, or keeping it real and he who has most fun wins?"

I don't know who or what Aaron Gwin is, so I'm not sure if they're local to me. Mostly just having fun, riding along, enjoying the view, not about to break any speed records!

Price isn't something that's much of an issue, I'd rather get a decent bike that will last, and have decent components that won't let me down. Had Hope/Shimano XT on the FSR, so that kind of level.

Not tall at 5’7″, so I think I’d prefer the smaller wheels over the ’29er’ style. Any advice for a returnee?

You're a little shorter than the male average, and still significantly taller than the average caucasion woman, many of whom manage to ride 29ers fine.

For XC type riding your choice of bike, and selection of suitable replacement tyres once you wear yours out, is going to be limited quite a bit if you restrict yourself to 650b wheels.

If you like specialised, the Epic Evo seems to fit the bill.

It does appear things have moved on slightly since those days, not least in the bewildering array of wheel sizes,
you arent wrong, plus there is tyre width, and rim width to consider.

numbers of cogs,
there are 11 or 12 on the back, but only one on the front, so its now a simple one button for faster, one button for easier interface, which also frees up your left thumb for...

seatposts that move up and down,
Greatest invention since disc brakes. I use mine more than I shift gears on terrain like you describe.

and myriad different suspension designs
They are all good these days.
They can all be made bad by completely messing up the shock settings.
95%+ of riders probably cannot tell what suspension design they are on by feel alone - and about 50% probably counldnt identify it by looking at it.
If you had a 2008 hatred of single pivots or something, disregard it.
Alternatively, seeing as your terrain is going to be mud and roots rather than big rocks, have you considered a hardtail?

Thanks. Re wheels size; 29ers just look huge, to my eyes, but that's coming from 26" of course. And I don't really want a bike just for 'XC type riding'; I'd like it to be able to handle tougher terrain that you generally find in the UK, so yes, the longer 'Alpine' style trails with much greater elevation gain/loss. An all-rounder, much like the FSR was. I appreciate things like dropper posts can be a game-changer, but I've never tried one. Tbh I never dropped my saddle much anyway, so such a thing would be a radical change from what I was used to.

"95%+ of riders probably cannot tell what suspension design they are on by feel alone – and about 50% probably counldnt identify it by looking at it."

Yes; waffle about the various merits of all the different systems bores me rigid (!), quite frankly. I just want it to work, and to not bob about too much (the FSR was very good on the rough bits, but did bob a bit on climbs etc, and I'd always forget to switch th

e shock to the 'doesn't bob as much' setting.

"If you had a 2008 hatred of single pivots or something, disregard it."

Had a Marin Mount Vision prior to the FSR; it was ok, but the FSR was a lot more sensitive, I felt. That could simply be subjectivity though. It felt 'clumsier', somehow.

"Alternatively, seeing as your terrain is going to be mud and roots rather than big rocks, have you considered a hardtail?"

No; I have said it'll be a mixture of different types of terrain. Plus I'm getting a bit old now, and prefer a bit of shock absorption!

Tbh I never dropped my saddle much anyway, so such a thing would be a radical change from what I was used to

I know I'm a bit of an evangeliser for the things, but bike fit has changed.
While you could move around the high seat o shorter bikes, longer reaches of todays bikes, even conservative ones (so not the latest race machines) mean its no longer as easy.
as an example, my previous bike - 150mm travel bird Aeris mk1, 2015ish - it was not possible to get behind the saddle with it at pedalling height. My current bike it is just doable, but still have to really stretch and worry about catching the shorts on the way back forwards.

I think I missed this line

I’ll be able to travel further afield again, plus going abroad

So you'd not go far wrong with a current stumpjumper I'd say. Trek Fuel EX is similar

Bird Aether, Commencal Meta TR are some slightly cheaper/better specced for the same money.

Sounds like you just need a decent trail bike which there are many of. Your biggest issue will be finding stock.

All the decent bikes will make your old bike seem like a complete pile of crap.

Geometry has changed a lot. In 2013 I had a very modern brand new 'enduro' bike in size L it had a reach of 410mm and a head angle of 67 degrees, I picked up my new L RocketMAX yesterday it has a head angle of 63.5 and a reach of 490mm. A long stem these days is 50mm and most of the time they are 35mm length. Therefore riding position has changed.

Another area of massive bike improvement is tyres. No matter what bike you get make sure it has a decent set of tyres.

You have a lot of good things to come back to.

Chains don't fall off
Dropper posts are awesome
Brakes are brilliant
Gears are far simpler and quiet
Most suspension is pretty decent
Tyres that grip and don't puncture
A bike that you can ride all day but stil ride down a DH track.

"All the decent bikes will make your old bike seem like a complete pile of crap."

Really? In what way? Are they faster/lighter/stronger/easier to maintain? These are the criteria I'd be most interested in examining. What I have noticed, is that designers have shifted towards the more 'MX' style riding position; steeper seat angle, slacker head angle, longer wheelbase. I'm sure such changes can offer advantages on particular types of trail, although I think lengthening a bike would compromise its agility in more 'technical' scenarios. And bike companies are still as reticent to display bike weights, it seems, but research suggests that bikes seem to have got heavier, if anything. A thread on here about the Bird Aether reveals weights 'start' at over 28lbs, and go up over 30! My FSR was a little under 26, and that felt 'heavy' in comparison to the Trek hardtail I had, which was about 22lbs. I accept this isn't really a fair comparison as they are very different bike types, but I'm not seeing any real significant weight loss across bikes. I'm 10.5st, so I don't need anything super tough.

"Therefore riding position has changed."

Yes, seems to be the fashion for a more 'central' position between the wheels, wider bars necessitating shorter stems, fork rake is longer, which would be good for fast descents, but not so good for climbing. Swings and roundabouts. I wouldn't want something that is great on descents, but a pig on climbs. Hoping to be able to do long day rides in mountainous European places, Spain, Italy,German, Switzerland etc. So a 30+lb 'freeride' type bike isn't what I want.

"If you like specialised, the Epic Evo seems to fit the bill."

Yes; this seems to be very much in line with what I'd be looking for. The Epics of 12+ years ago were very light, 'XC race' oriented machines with about 80mm travel; I went for the Stumpjumper because it was a little less 'racy' and had a bit more travel, 100mm I think. I bought it off someone who hadn't got on with it, for a really good price, and it was definitely an improvement over the Marin. The current Stumpjumpers seem to be a bit more 'Freeride, and even the top end one is over 30lbs!

"Your biggest issue will be finding stock."

Yes, this is clear. Not only that; what on earth happened to bike prices?? The S-Works Stumpjumper was about £3500 I think; even allowing for inflation, that's still only around £5500, which is still a lot of money, yet the current S-Works Epic is £11,500! That's insane! What are bikes made of now, Platinum??

You really should just go ride some bikes and find out.

From your comments and descriptions, I'd say you'd actually want to steer clear of anything with more than 120mm travel tbh. Compared to your old bike you'll think it's heavy, slack, ponderous and slow. Something along the lines of the Specialized Epic Evo, as suggested, will be much more your thing.

fork rake is longer, which would be good for fast descents, but not so good for climbing.

Apart from wiggling your way up trail centre switchbacks, the slacker head angle doesn’t affect climbing.
If anything, the longer wheelbase is a benefit as you have a broader central comfort region where you are neither wheelieing or going so light on the back end that it slips.

I agree that the quest for slacker head angles has gone too far in some bikes, to the point where some bikes are only fun going fast. But there are plenty that aren’t, including the ones already mentioned by me and others.

Yes, this is clear. Not only that; what on earth happened to bike prices?? The S-Works Stumpjumper was about £3500 I think; even allowing for inflation, that’s still only around £5500, which is still a lot of money, yet the current S-Works Epic is £11,500! That’s insane! What are bikes made of now, Platinum??

Was that in about 2008, when it was 2 USD to the pound?
Up until COVID, few people actually paid RRP for bikes from the ‘big’ brands.
This last year, seems they will shift at any price.

A few months back I bought a new mtb after nearly 15 years. Last bike was rockhopper hard tail with discs (that was cutting edge back then I think). New bike is Stumpjumper Comp carbon. I’m about 5’8” and got an S3 size frame but you could go down a size if you wanted. I was unsure about the 29” wheels and, when I collected the new bike, I thought I’d made a mistake on that front. Only when I took it for a “proper” ride in Gwydir Forest did I realise how good they are.

I think any bike you get will be so much better than your old one that you’ll be very impressed with it.

I don’t know who or what Aaron Gwin is, so I’m not sure if they’re local to me. Mostly just having fun, riding along, enjoying the view, not about to break any speed records!

Compared to your old bike you’ll think it’s heavy, slack, ponderous and slow.

That is what I think of modern bikes but luckily there are other options. I also don't really like 29" wheels even though I ride them. They are no doubt faster but I actually preferred 26"

"Apart from wiggling your way up trail centre switchbacks, the slacker head angle doesn’t affect climbing."

Well, it does, and climbing entails a bit more than just 'wiggling up trail centre switchbacks'. Try Alpine or Pyrenean mountain trails, where you can ascend many thousands of feet over a ride.

"You really should just go ride some bikes and find out."

That would be nice, wouldn't it? Not gonna happen for a while yet at least. I have ridden a few friends/hired bikes over the years, but I can't remember what I liked/disliked. I'd happily pay good money to have some test rides, but I think I'll be waiting until next Autumn at least, for such a thing to become possible.

"From your comments and descriptions, I’d say you’d actually want to steer clear of anything with more than 120mm travel tbh. Compared to your old bike you’ll think it’s heavy, slack, ponderous and slow. Something along the lines of the Specialized Epic Evo, as suggested, will be much more your thing."

Yes; that really does seem like the kind of thing I'd like, more than say the current Stumpjumper model. A bit of a Google suggests an Epic Evo Comp is around 27lb, so a little heavier than I'd like, but nothing that can't be solved with a few 'upgrades' 😉 And there's always the frame only option, although the current colour scheme is a bit nasty.

Anything else in that kind of area? So; 120mm travel, closer to 25lbs than 30, not too slack and long?

Part of the reason that bikes have gotten heavier is that they're a lot more durable now than they used to be, and have to be to pass the requisite CEN testing. Once you're actually out on the trails, 25lbs vs. 27lbs isn't actually a huge difference, and anecdotal evidence shows that a little more weight and solidity actually contributes to a more stable ride.

Have a look at the Canyon Lux CF, Trek Top Fuel, Orbea OIZ, Scott Spark RC for starters.

Well, it does, and climbing entails a bit more than just ‘wiggling up trail centre switchbacks’. Try Alpine or Pyrenean mountain trails, where you can ascend many thousands of feet over a ride.

There are lifts in the Alps, used them many times. If you really just want to do XC then buy an XC bike. Mountain biking and in particular UK Mountain biking is very descent focused these days.

If you are really into doing epics and big climbs then get an XC bike like the Epic EVO or a Top fuel. If you want to enjoy descending then get a trail bike.

That is what I think of modern bikes but luckily there are other options. I also don’t really like 29″ wheels even though I ride them. They are no doubt faster but I actually preferred 26″

That's interesting. My only experience of larger wheels is from y hybrid, and on borrowed/hired bikes. I found them all a bit ponderous by comparison although that is from memory, rather than side-by-side testing. Turning circle is definitely more barge-like.

Part of the reason that bikes have gotten heavier is that they’re a lot more durable now than they used to be, and have to be to pass the requisite CEN testing. Once you’re actually out on the trails, 25lbs vs. 27lbs isn’t actually a huge difference, and anecdotal evidence shows that a little more weight and solidity actually contributes to a more stable ride.

Yet the Specialized Epic Evo frame is just 1659g/3.65lb? I think that's lighter than my old Trek hardtail frame! Astonishing. And whilst 25 v 27 lbs might not be too noticeable, 25 v 30+ definitely is. As for 'durability'; aren't the CEN tests way in excess of what is necessary for a bike frame for the vast majority of riders?

Have a look at the Canyon Lux CF, Trek Top Fuel, Orbea OIZ, Scott Spark RC for starters

I will, thanks.

There are lifts in the Alps, used them many times. If you really just want to do XC then buy an XC bike. Mountain biking and in particular UK Mountain biking is very descent focused these days.

If you are really into doing epics and big climbs then get an XC bike like the Epic EVO or a Top fuel. If you want to enjoy descending then get a trail bike.

The lifts are limited to the ski resorts, mainly, and kind of defeat the object, for me. Aaron Gwin might be quick down a hill, but he's not taking in the lovely view. Shame.

A lot of bikes are heavier now because tyres are more durable, as are forks / brakes / shocks etc.

A lot of ‘trail bikes’ are around the 30lb Mark. I have a Bird Aether 7 and with a Pike and sensible levels of kit (carbon cranks / bars / Hope hubs / XT 12 speed / code brakes / Oneup dropper) it weighs in about 31lbs. It’s very robust and will take a lot of abuse though. Yesterday I did just under 40km on it of bridleways joined by roads and 975m of climbing and still felt fairly fresh at the end as it climbs well with minimal bobbing and is brilliant on the downhills. If that sort of rising was all I did I’d probably go for something built lighter and shorter travel - see the newest ‘niche’ called ‘down country’.

At the opposite end my current bike will happily smash down trails at uplift centres like BPW / BMCC all day - it’s a genuine do it all sort of bike.

Genuinely weight isn’t the be all and end all with modern geometry and kit but I get what you’re saying. It sounds like the down country niche is where you’d be happiest - generally around 120mm of travel with light carbon frames but modern geometry. So not quite as slack as some trail bikes have got (mine has a 66 degree head angle) but enough to be stable and fun on a mixture of trails.

I’d look at:

Transition Spur

YT Izzo

Trek Top Fuel

Santa Cruz Tallboy (maybe a bit more trail than down country)

Scott Spark (possibly more xc leaning but still a good all rounder)

Edit - on dropper posts once you have one most people struggle to go back. When I first tried one (100 travel but with a 50mm and 75mm setting) I thought in the lowest setting the saddle was too low and felt like I missed having it there for support. However once I tried one on a modern geometry bike at 120mm I felt I’d like more travel - so have gone 150 - 180 and now to 200mm travel. You can corner better with the saddle out of the way and you can get lower in the middle of the bike on really steep trails. Would genuinely take a loss of rear suspension from my full suss than lose my dropper post.

Nice. Some brands I've never heard of. What happened to Marin? I'll be more interested in brands that are (normally) readily available form a 'proper' bike shop, rather than online only, as I'll be wanting to actually test ride anything, plus, I'd quite like humans to deal with for after sales service etc. I wouldn't even discount Halfords, because for all their many faults, they do tend to be good at refunding stuff etc, and there are branches everywhere. The small independent bike shops round here tend to be rip-off joints in my experience. And what happened to Evans? Gone? Shame.

Marin went backwards a bit for a while, but they seem to be on a run now and bringing some more interesting bikes out. Not sure if they have a bike like you’re after - most of the ones I’ve seen are more trail leaning towards enduro.

Some online brands do test days (Bird do demos from several sites but they don’t have a bike in the area you’re looking at), YT / Canyon / Radon I think have some test tours round the U.K. in normal times.

If you’re buying a brand from a bike shop it’ll generally have less spec for the price vs direct brands as there are more costs to pay for in the supply chain. Just a fact of life.

The best value lbs brands seems to be Cube / sometimes Whyte who fit in some decent spec for the money. Cube tend to be less progressive geometry though - Whyte are decent. Guess something like a Whyte S120 might do the job - although I’m not sure what the weight is like.

The mainstream brands like Specialized / Giant are always going to come with a premium - as are the more boutique brands like Santa Cruz / Yeti etc.

On wheel size both my bikes are currently 27.5 as I haven’t yet ridden a 29er I like more. But I’m not ruling out 29ers - next time I look at replacing my full suss then I’ve be demo-ing some of those as well as 27.5. In the type of riding you’re planning on doing a 29er is probably going to be more efficient at covering ground and smoothing bumps out.

Evans cycles is still around but they’ve closed some stores and are now owned by Mike Ashley. In my experience they hold some stock in stores of everyday sort of stuff - but they’re usually under staffed as the cost cutting has hit to try and make them profitable.

As for ‘durability’; aren’t the CEN tests way in excess of what is necessary for a bike frame for the vast majority of riders?

I think if you're wanting LBS backup, then the brands you're looking at for XC FS bikes will be limited to:
Giant
Specialized
Trek
Scott
Cube

None of which will do their short travel bikes in anything other than 29er - and there's a reason for that.

I forgot about the Giant Anthem as well; in fact, I think that might well be your best starting point given how well-regarded they are for the type of riding you want to do.

None of which will do their short travel bikes in anything other than 29er – and there’s a reason for that.

Which is?

Most people wanting to go fast xc will want 29er wheels - because they’re faster.

Edit - my only recent 29er experience is having a quick go on a mates white t129 at night with not powerful enough lights and not enough air in the shock for my weight and I pb’d down a section I ride frequently in the light. It’s a flat ish trail centre route on hardpack with some little berms and rollers etc so not some rugged rock fest - and yet the 29er was still quicker.

because they’re faster.

Are they? Hmm. I would have thought it was a trade off between acceleration and agility of smaller wheels, versus the 'flywheel' effect of larger wheels at constant speed. So, swings and roundabouts? In fairness, my hybrid is actually not bad off road; not Alpine type stuff, but the more gentle forest trails etc. I'm also wondering about centre of gravity; surely smaller wheels place this lower down? It is certainly interesting that 27.5" wheels have appeared; a compromise between the two? Could 27.5" wheels be put on a bike designed for 29"? How might that affect things?

27.5" wheels appeared (they're actually closer to 27" in reality) because designers hadn't really figured out the geometry of 29ers properly - now that most 29ers come with shorter offset forks, better balanced geometry, etc, the traditionally perceived downsides have mostly been mitigated.

It's not just the flywheel effect that makes 29ers faster - the angle at which a larger diameter wheel impacts upon obstructions is shallower so it's marginally less likely to get hung up, and so on.

We can talk about the theories being this endlessly in all honesty, but (and I know we keep saying it, and it's difficult to do so with lockdown, etc) you really need to go and try some modern bikes out to see what you like the feel of. I have a sneaking suspicion that you might actually just be better off finding a used version of your old Stumpy and just buying that.. 👍

On the speed thing virtually everyone racing professional xc, and a large proportion of enduro and DH racers are now on 29ers. Some of the DH people didn’t seem to o like them at first for the ‘feel’ but did find they were faster. They drop into holes / ruts etc less than a smaller wheel so smooth things out more.

I haven’t really enjoyed the 29ers I’ve ridden so far as they haven’t felt as manoeuvrable / playful but the geometry on them seem to be getting better all the time. If you can wait for some test ride options to become available then do that - if you can’t wait I’d just get what is available in budget and go for it. There aren’t many bad bikes these days out of the main brands.

Or you could try to find something secondhand (wondering if some of the bikes impulse bought in lockdown will be finding their way into the secondhand market yet?) and try something a few years old for less cost that new to see if you like it.

I've not been away from MTBing but I did update my bike last year.

I'd been riding an Orange Sub3 since around 2002, using it for XC racing, MTB Marathons etc.

Absolutely loved it, along with its triple chain set, narrow bars, bar ends etc, 26 inc wheels.

Just over 12 months ago I bought a 29er Orbea Oiz. It took a couple of rides to get used to, mainly the bigger feel of the bike and the wider bars but it very, very quickly felt just right. The Oiz feels like a rocket ship compared to the Orange!

Riding the Orange is now a very scary proposition! It feels absolutely tiny.

"None of which will do their short travel bikes in anything other than 29er – and there’s a reason for that."

Which is?

Nobody (or a very small number of people) want to buy them, for the reasons, real or percieved, already mentioned. Yes they tried. Scott and Giant especially. The used market may be worth a look if you want to go down this road.

some exception made for the smaller sizes - I think trek for example make the small and xs of their XC bikes as 650b. At 5'7, I doubt squeezing onto a small is going to work out for you.

I’m also wondering about centre of gravity; surely smaller wheels place this lower down?

CoG of the wheel, yes that is at axle level, so an inch or so
CoG of the bike, minimal change maybe a mm or so.
CoG of the bike+rider. So infinitessimally small, and irrelevant compared to how other differences between bikes will have more of a difference.

It’s not just the flywheel effect that makes 29ers faster – the angle at which a larger diameter wheel impacts upon obstructions is shallower so it’s marginally less likely to get hung up, and so on.

Interesting.

you really need to go and try some modern bikes out to see what you like the feel of

Yeah, not so easy at the moment. I was hoping for things to have settled down by now, so I could at least be riding this summer, but I think we're probably looking at next autumn now, realistically, and certainly no sooner for foreign holidays (if we're ever allowed to go to Europe again...).

I have a sneaking suspicion that you might actually just be better off finding a used version of your old Stumpy and just buying that..

I did peruse a few on Ebay recently, but the prices seemed a bit steep for such old bikes! Covid premium? I'd quite like to try something new; it's nice to buy new things. If bikes have improved as much as people are saying, surely I need something new, right? 😉

Or you could try to find something secondhand (wondering if some of the bikes impulse bought in lockdown will be finding their way into the secondhand market yet?) and try something a few years old for less cost that new to see if you like it.

That is also a consideration. I had thought about that. A neighbour paid £200 for a real piece of crap advertised as 'vintage', some old Peugeot thing from the 80s. The kind of thing someone would have gladly given away, prior to Covid. So I'm wondering if the 'end' of all the lockdowns etc, coupled with the shortening days and colder/wetter weather, and xmas coming etc, might see a few bargains start to emerge. One can only hope.

At 5’7, I doubt squeezing onto a small is going to work out for you

How very dare you!! Oh, 'onto', sorry...

CoG of the wheel, yes that is at axle level, so an inch or so
CoG of the bike, minimal change maybe a mm or so.
CoG of the bike+rider. So infinitessimally small, and irrelevant compared to how other differences between bikes will have more of a difference.

Interesting. Thanks.

Also

Could 27.5″ wheels be put on a bike designed for 29″?

Modern bikes are waaaay more capable than old stuff used to be, at the expense of immediacy of steering (read: uncontrollable twitchiness). A current model trail bike is capable of most stuff a DH bike from the mid-00s was, with the added bonus of being able to ride it uphill as well.

Turning circle is definitely more barge-like.

I've owned two 29ers, and they are absolutely lightening fast handling - by far the quickest and best handling bikes I've had. Partly because, with more modern geometry (and they aren't really modern at all) the front wheel is no longer underneath my chest with all my weight on it, which means I can change direction really fast without worrying about the front wheel washing out. Back in the day, almost all my effort was expended in the fight to keep my front wheel from washing out in corners. This is no longer necessary, both my 29ers just drift nicely when I lean them over. This is what makes them 'better' in my view - far more satisfying to ride!

idiotdogbrain
Free Member

designers hadn’t really figured out the geometry of 29ers properly – now that most 29ers come with shorter offset forks,

Longer offset, surely? To cancel out the increased trail that the larger wheel will give you.

Orange stage 4 or Evo

A do it all mtb, some famous mtber was only 5 seconds slower down an enduro trail than his time on the much bigger travel stage 6.

I've done twentyfour12 (24 hour pairs) racing with it and got my best ever time/distance. The previous bike being something very similar to a Spec Epic with 2002 xc marathon race geometry. The only difference from the supplied 28.5lb spec was to add barends and remove the enduro tyres for easier rolling (so lighter again).

I was in much better shape at the end of the event on the newer bike, it's crazy how much better they are as an all around MTB.

Anyone else thinking of Steven Toast at the title of this thread?

MTB's have changed massively in the 12 years you've been away, and presumably your FSR was even older than that. Steeper seats, slacker heads, longer reach plus droppers, wider bars, short stems, axles not QR's. Not sure if you were tubeless back then, as I know I was?

Based on the limited amount of travelling you're going to do this year, buy something for riding in the UK and more aimed at local (Epping, Chilterns, Surrey Hills etc) - that way you'll get back into it through just riding more.

A HT will more than suffice for that, and HT are far more capable than you'll remember.

And don't worry about weight, as unless you're spending a serious amount of cash, it'll be heavier than the past - as it's far, far more capable. And if weight bothers you, and you're a "wheels on the ground rider", get a gravel bike.

MTB’s have changed massively in the 12 years you’ve been away, and presumably your FSR was even older than that. Steeper seats, slacker heads, longer reach plus droppers, wider bars, short stems, axles not QR’s. Not sure if you were tubeless back then, as I know I was?

This

A HT will more than suffice for that, and HT are far more capable than you’ll remember.

And don’t worry about weight, as unless you’re spending a serious amount of cash, it’ll be heavier than the past – as it’s far, far more capable.

Ht’s are more capable - I love my new one and it can do most of what my fs can do and it’s a lot more comfy than my last ht (new one is steel and on 2.6” tyres) - but the fs is definitely more comfy and saves you more doing reckless stuff. If the op wants a full suss then get a full suss.

Weight generally is higher now even using exo casing style tyres - tyres back in the day were substantially flimsier on average. Tubeless is definitely worth having!

And if weight bothers you, and you’re a “wheels on the ground rider”, get a gravel bike.

Erm, don’t do this. Just because you keep wheels on the ground doesn’t mean you should buy a road bike with big (ger) tyres 🤣

Anyone else thinking of Steven Toast at the title of this thread?

I can hear you, Clem Fandango...

And don’t worry about weight, as unless you’re spending a serious amount of cash, it’ll be heavier than the past – as it’s far, far more capable.

It's such claims that are quite mystifying. Far, far more capable? Will it pedal up the hills for me then? As for weight; see above for my views on that. Cash? I think, from a bit of research, I'd be looking at around £4-6k for something I'd be happy with spec wise, as prices seem to have inflated somewhat in line with spec levels. I will not be spending £10k though. That just seems silly.

And if weight bothers you, and you’re a “wheels on the ground rider”, get a gravel bike.

I could just put drop bars on my hybrid, if I wanted that. I don't.

Seems you won’t be swayed by anything we say, despite us all having ridden since you gave up. Get out and test as many bikes as you can, inc 27.5, 29ers, HTs, FSs even ebikes, which will take you up the hill. Your mind will be blown.

Everything has changed, vastly for the better. Weight doesn’t matter anything like what you think it does.

Seems you won’t be swayed by anything we say

Not at all; I'm merely trying to ascertain the facts, rather than simply acting on the subjective opinions of others. And I didn't 'give up', I just didn't ride off road much in all that time. And I have ridden various bikes in that time; if you read my posts, you'd have understood this. And far from not being 'swayed' by advice; I'm now looking at the more 'XC' type of bikes that are out there. So that's been very useful.

It feels like one step back towards trail from ‘xc race’ could be the sweet spot from what you’re saying. It’ll be a bit sub 30lbs with your budget - something with the new 35mm stanchion sids / Fox 34 stepcasts, light wheels, XT / GX 12 speed, fast rolling tyres etc.

Or if you decide you want 27.5 and there’s not much in the above category that hits that criteria then something like the Santa Cruz 5010 CC might tick a box. Maybe go frame/fork only and then build it up with a light build. I did a build for a mate on a 5010 CC recently and came in about £4200 all in. Frame / pike ultimate bargain on the outgoing version of the frame. Slx 12 speed, DT Swiss XM481 rims / 350 hubs, brand x dropper, brand x carbon bars, fabric scoop elite saddle, Maxxis dhf / Dhr2 tyres, slx 4 pot brakes etc. Think it came in between 30-31lbs.

If you did that but went lighter on the wheelset / lighter and faster rolling tyres / 2 pot brakes (maybe Hope X2), XT groupset, lighter dropper post etc it would come in south of 30lbs.

As I built it, the bike already pedals brilliantly on flat trail centre twisty stuff and my mate is getting climbing pr’s everywhere at the moment. Really lively ride feel.

Santa Cruz 5010 CC

Too heavy. I'm looking for something around 25lbs or lower. I don't mind a pound or so over that, but I really don't want a 30+lb bike. I think I've said this enough times now.

I was away from MTB for a long time and built myself an XC hardtail last year (Sonder Broken Road) and had some similar thoughts to you. I also had a Stumpy FSR as my main MTB. FWIW here are my experiences:

- I was not expecting 29ers wheels to feel as good as they do. I assume there's some kind of geometry magic going on, but they don't feel like they used to back in the early 2010s.

- It took me less than half an hour for the dropper post to become an instinctive part of the bike for me. Worth the extra weight IMO.

- I've ridden stuff comfortably on the Broken Road that I used to find reasonably challenging on my Stumpy. I have definitely not become more skilful.

https://www.mtbr.com/threads/anyone-knows-the-weights-for-epic-evo-2021.1147389/

The $11k sworks comes in at 22ish, but the more normal spec ones are hitting the 26-27 mark with pedals, on what is considered an exceptionally light weight bike these days.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-dangerholms-insanely-light-scott-spark.html

This is the level you need to go to these days to get to a weight that was not unusual on the XC race circuit back in the 26er hardtail days.

He (gustav dangerholm) has done some other impressive builds, where lightweight is a feature, but not the only end goal, if you want to read about the level of customisation to achieve it.

Yeah sub 25lbs is a big ask on a full suss bike these days. You’re probably talking big money unless you’re going 100mm travel xc race rigs I’d have thought.

You missed off the bit about the 5010 CC where I said for your budget you could probably get it sub 30lbs. I wasn’t suggesting you go over 30lbs when you’d clearly stated you thought that was mental heavy already (it’s not).

I feel deja vu on this thread with someone else who’d been away a long while from mtb and couldn’t get their head round how things have changed and what’s good / what’s not good / what is important / what is less important etc.

https://m.pinkbike.com/news/bike-check-dangerholms-insanely-light-scott-spark.html

This is the level you need to go to these days to get to a weight that was not unusual on the XC race circuit back in the 26er hardtail days.

Now we're talking! 😀 The bootle cage reminds me of a prototype one I saw years ago, at a bike show I think. Made using kevlar shoelace impregnated with epoxy or something. Looked like it would snap in seconds, but apparently very strong.

The $11k sworks comes in at 22ish, but the more normal spec ones are hitting the 26-27 mark with pedals, on what is considered an exceptionally light weight bike these days.

Well there's a couple there that are sub-25lb, so that's encouraging.

Yeah sub 25lbs is a big ask on a full suss bike these days.

But why? People keep saying that bikes are 'far, far better' these days, yet many seem heavy. Whilst weight might not be a priority for others, it is for me. As I've said in my original post; my hiatus from MTBing was mainly due to injuries. I don't want to be putting myself at risk of further injuries, trying to lift a heavy bike over a stile, for example, so for me at least, weight is important.

You missed off the bit about the 5010 CC where I said for your budget you could probably get it sub 30lbs.

The lightest model is just a fraction under 30lbs. You could have suggested the Blur, which is a lot lighter.

But why? People keep saying that bikes are ‘far, far better’ these days, yet many seem heavy.

tyres are 20% wider, and 10% bigger diameter. Rims too, and they need to be stronger due to the bigger diameter. Fork legs have also lengthened, and as they are a cantilever, need more thickness for the same stiffness. Larger brake rotors are needed to get the same braking, as they are stopping a larger diameter wheel

we've ditched the tubes, but the tyre casing has often got a little thicker to keep it airtight.

The new rockshox Sid has 35mm stanchions. not long ago their downhill fork had 32mm. The DH ones were obviously thicker, and heavier, but the new Sid is still going to outweigh the old Sid.

Everone apparently needs huge 4 pot brake calipers even on trail bikes these days. (I've had my own thread about this, recently)

You could even say that as frames have got bigger - eg the reach has increased - they will weigh more. if you make a 10% longer beam it will have 21% more bending force in it, and therefore more material needed for the same strength and stiffness. Add in the extra length and you are at 30% more weight.

The dropper adds a pound or so, is well worth it, but especially as

I don’t want to be putting myself at risk of further injuries,

going "OTB" is staggeringly rare these days, (racing steep downhills at the edge of control, and messing up jumps excluded). The dropper and slacker head angle have "solved" this issue pretty much.

Every weight adding thing above has been partly counteracted by the weight saving improvements by the manufacturer. They havent quite kept pace.

Every weight adding thing above has been partly counteracted by the weight saving improvements by the manufacturer. They havent quite kept pace.

Right. But lightweight bikes are still available; the weights suggested for the Epic Evo, for example, are in the same area as 'XC' full suspension bikes were back when I was MTBing regularly. Perhaps a little lighter, even. 25lbs was around the mark, proper light bikes were 23/22lbs, and full on race weapons were 21lbs or lower. Hardtails were silly light. A friend had a Santa Cruz Blur (the original model) with full XTR, and that was about 23lbs I think.I know it didn't feel noticeably heavier than my Trek hardtail, with Hope and XT parts. There were quite a few 'freeride' bikes around, they tended to be upwards of 30lbs, and were fun for an hour or so, but then just felt sluggish once you got tired. I'm not as fit as I was back then, not likely to be so again, so a nice light bike will be of benefit.

The new rockshox Sid has 35mm stanchions. not long ago their downhill fork had 32mm. The DH ones were obviously thicker, and heavier, but the new Sid is still going to outweigh the old Sid.

The original Rockshox Judy DH forks had 28mm stanchions, I think. And 80mm of travel! The current Sid Ultimate is 3.4lbs, so a bit heavier than the 2.8lb versions that were around then, but as you say, they have to deal with having longer travel, and for bigger wheels etc, so are going to be beefed up a bit. Those earlier ultra light ones were quite flexy though, and 63mm travel? So I accept things have got stronger and more 'capable' as they've got heavier.

There were quite a few ‘freeride’ bikes around, they tended to be upwards of 30lbs, and were fun for an hour or so, but then just felt sluggish once you got tired.

Well, it does, and climbing entails a bit more than just ‘wiggling up trail centre switchbacks’. Try Alpine or Pyrenean mountain trails, where you can ascend many thousands of feet over a ride.

If you're not in a rush it matters far less than you might think.
The steeper it gets though the more the geometry plays a part.

Partly bigger wheels .. when you climbed on a 26" a small root would be a obstacle that doesn't exist on a 29er (I'm more a 27.5 guy but) so you can winch your way (in combination with modern suspension) rather than have to use momentum.

It really does go back to trying some ... even if that means delaying a purchase or just finding some local riders who'll let you have a go.

I lent a modern 27.5 HT to a mate of a mate on Saturday... he sold his really really nice but old Intense and bought a HT the same day!

The biggest thing I am trying to rationalise in my head is the lack of front derailleur. Been such a part of mt riding life for years that I am struggling to think about doing without it. Even though, if I'm honest, I very rarely used the granny ring. And the prices seem to have gone up a fair bit and not a big fan of how may are using SRAM. Maybe I'm just a bit of a Shimano fanboi in denial. 🙂 Although I don't need to change my bike at the moment I can't help thinking about it as I am still riding 26" rims. I really do like the composite frame and geometry of my bike (probably surprisingly old Giant XTC) and love the feel of it but can't help casting envious glances over at the 29er world. But finding something comparable for a reasonable price doesn't seem to be as easy as I thought it might be!

That’s not just the weight though – suspension kinematics and shock technology have moved on so much that a 32lb bike with 160mm of travel doesn’t feel like you’re pedalling through treacle any more.

This so much. We (as mtbers) have obsessed over and categorised bikes by weight, then suspension travel, then headtube angle.
Sometimes overlapping.

Statements like "bike A climbs better than bikes B and C" and "bike A has a head angle 2 degrees steeper" "bike C is 2lbs heavier" get combined into a possibly erroneous conclusion.

Something like a money no object, weight saving build on a Santa Cruz Megatower is going to come in lighter and in all probability climb better than my Alloy trail bike with DH rims, which comes in at 32lbs, and doesn't feel at all heavy.

Conversely I could drop a load of weight from my bike with some compromises and a lot of cash; but I don't want to, because after many years of breaking wheels, burning out brakes, but not using all travel or all the gears, I have arrived at the bike that works for me. And its great we all have that option.

But why? People keep saying that bikes are ‘far, far better’ these days, yet many seem heavy.

Better is very subjective... more fun and more versatile.
Back then (whenever) manufacturers convinced us lighter was better ... as it MTB matured people questioned that
as ajay points out

The dropper adds a pound or so, is well worth it, but especially as

People tried one, found riding more fun without all the OTB's .. found their pedalling position was better because they could optimise it .. and that it was actually better going up as well as down and the extra weight was well worth it.

the weights suggested for the Epic Evo, for example

Another mate sold his old Epic 26er last year after riding an Enduro for a year. He simply wasn't using the Epic even though his love is ultras and XC. He replaced it with a heavier ? XC 29er..
(?) is because i don't know the weight but I don't think he does either ...

(probably surprisingly old Giant XTC) and love the feel of it but can’t help casting envious glances over at the 29er world. But finding something comparable for a reasonable price doesn’t seem to be as easy as I thought it might be!

Make me a decent (sensible) offer and a 2015 - 27.5 medium advanced is yours.... (No Covid tax)

Santa Cruz 5010 CC

Too heavy. I’m looking for something around 25lbs or lower. I don’t mind a pound or so over that, but I really don’t want a 30+lb bike. I think I’ve said this enough times now.

Orbea Oiz. Mine weighs a shade under 25.5 lbs

Step this way.

But why? People keep saying that bikes are ‘far, far better’ these days, yet many seem heavy.

Because they are.

My Cotic Flare Max 29er is streets ahead of my old 2006 S-Works Enduro 26er in every single aspect, except weight, even though it's got less suspension travel it's still way, way better. In fact it's streets ahead of the 2015 Camber Evo Carbon 29er it replaced too.

It's ability to get down anything is unreal, stability at speed is brilliant and it climbs better than even my old Ti HT.

Take a look at a Cotic.

Ok. So it really is a matter of trying to filter out the marketing spiel, and looking at what people actually ride. I'm assuming a current XC type bike may be 'better' in some respects, than one from 15+ years ago. That, I would expect, given the amount of time technology has had to improve. I can accept a 30lb 'trail' bike might be 'better' in some respects than a 25lb XC bike from 15 years ago. It's still heavier, although I can accept this might not be quite the downside this once was. And I would ovbiously like to try some bikes out, this is not quite the right time for that. I'd planned to travel and hire bikes this last summer, and when that didn't happen, really thought I'd be doing that this summer. That's not looking likely either. Such is life. So it's probably good to enquire first, on such a forum as this. And it seems quite a number of people want something different from a bike, than what I do. We're all different.

Orbea Oiz. Mine weighs a shade under 25.5 lbs

And we're back on track. Thanks. They do look good; the Oiz M Pro TR looks good, but then the Oiz M Team has XTR...

Take a look at a Cotic

I did:

Weight - Gold Spec Bike 30.3lbs w/o pedals

I'll say it again, because some people obviously aren't paying attention:

I’m looking for something around 25lbs or lower

I’m looking for something around 25lbs or lower

And you're asking for advice, and we're telling you to ignore weight as your key requirement.

Or get a gravel bike - they're light. Although I've just added a dropper to mine 🙂

How much do you weigh OP? What percentage difference will ~5lbs make to the total system (you, riding kit and the bike) weight?

As everyone has said, suspension, tyres and geometry have a FAR bigger effect on how the bike feels/climbs. The only time I really notice the weight difference between my 27lb bike and 36lb bike is when I’m lifting it over/into stuff.

Your obsession with weight suggests you are after a pure speed machine. Lycra, disco slippers, performance over fun, than kind of thing.

For most of us though, fun is the key factor.

The original riding you described (Flat XC all the way up to 'proper' mountains), to me suggests you want a true all rounder, which to me means a 135-150 mm travel 29er (Santa Cruz Hightower as an example), but that's going to be even heavier than the 5010 you've already said is too heavy!

I’m looking for something around 25lbs or lower

It's REALLY not worth worrying about that.

I used to have a 21.5lbs top bling XC FS race whippet from 2007. After I'd ridden a rigid 29er for a while on some local rocky trails I decided to bring my race whippet out on a dry day to smash all my times. Not only did I not smash my times but it took me three goes to clear the big climb. That bike got stripped for parts PDQ.

The reason bikes are now heavier is that MTBers realised that light weight is not as important as a well functioning bike. I used to be a right weight-weenie (which is who I ended up with the above-mentioned bike at significant expense), but even now I've realised that whilst light weight is nice it's a lot less important than people used to think. I'm quicker up hills on my very much XC racey 29er because it is a 29er and it has better tyres at lower pressures.

OP, if you're happy to pay £6k it sounds like what you want is a Transition Spur X01 - 24.8lbs.

I just went back to check what you originally wrote and it included;

Mostly just having fun, riding along, enjoying the view, not about to break any speed records!

That seems entirely inconsistent with all the weight-weenying.

Make me a decent (sensible) offer and a 2015 – 27.5 medium advanced is yours…. (No Covid tax)

🙂

That's probably about the age of mine 🙂

That seems entirely inconsistent with all the weight-weenying.

I disagree. Hauling a heavy bike with big draggy tyres around is just a miserable experience, totally negating any pleasure to be gained from the view. I don't understand why people do it.

I'd love a Spur, but it's only a pound or so lighter than my Jeffsy, so I'll probably be sensible and not blow my pension on it.

I disagree. Hauling a heavy bike with big draggy tyres around is just a miserable experience,

So change the tyres? Spend a hundred, rather than thousands.

Forgot about the Spur!

OP - watch this and see if this is the sort of thing you're after:

if you’re happy to pay £6k

I'm not happy to pay £6k at all! It just seems that that is around the price the kind of bike I'd like, will cost. That does look quite nice though, so thanks. The frame is a little heavier than some others, but not too bad. The X01 appears to be 25.2lbs on Transition's website, but we'll not quibble over a few ounces. 😉 Can't find a price on the XX1 version though; that has the lighter wheelset. Of course, another option is a frame only build, might be a little more than a complete bike, but perhaps more suited to what I want.

That seems entirely inconsistent with all the weight-weenying.

My idea of 'having fun' is not

Hauling a heavy bike with big draggy tyres around.

So change the tyres?

A light bike, with light tyres, is still going to be a little more preferable to me than a heavy bike with light tyres.

The original riding you described (Flat XC all the way up to ‘proper’ mountains), to me suggests

I want a nice light bike. Yes I know, thanks.

OP – watch this and see if this is the sort of thing you’re after:

Well, apart from the looking scary in lycra bit, yes, pretty much. The Spur is perhaps a little slacker than some other 'XC' bikes, no? But it's in the right area, roughly. This is about getting an idea of what to be looking for; sorry to anyone who thinks' I'm being a bit dismissive of your suggestions, but there's literally thousands of different bikes out there, and the choice is utterly bewildering. I remember the days where you got a Raleigh, a Peugeot and that was about it! 😀 So if I can narrow the field down even a bit, it's very helpful.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/yt-izzo-review-trail-bike-2020.html

26 and a half pounds without pedals. various levels of spec for different prices.

sorry to anyone who thinks’ I’m being a bit dismissive of your suggestions, but there’s literally thousands of different bikes out there,

At least respect our advice enough to listen, eh?

I am. But when yet another person comes along and suggests something that isn't what I've specified, it gets a bit tiresome. Remember; this isn't a bike for you, it's a bike for me. With my money. Quite a lot of my money, it appears. I've specified 'around 25lbs or below', to try to steer things away from 'oh what about this nice 30+lb bike?' type responses. To little avail, it seems. It isn't 'advice', as much as 'this is the bike I would buy'. Which isn't what I'm asking. I'd quite like my request to be 'respected'.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/yt-izzo-review-trail-bike-2020.html

26 and a half pounds without pedals. various levels of spec for different prices.

Starting to creep up above my ideal 'zone', but I'll give it some consideration, thanks.

I get that, but the bikes that are intended for the sort of riding you want to do (general trail) don't weigh sub-25lbs any more! To get that sort of weight, you're looking at much more race-focused bikes, which won't be as suited for general trail riding.

Honestly, it's like rocking up to a car forum and saying:

"Right, I haven't had a car in 40 years; I want something for general everyday driving but it must weigh under 1000kg."

So everyone says:

"Well, cars have gotten a bit heavier, but honestly it doesn't matter as they're so much better now regardless."

They you ignore that and insist on some arbitrary number that isn't relevant any more, someone says "Well, the Lotus Elise weighs under 1000kg but it's not really the most suitable car for the driving you want to do."

See what I'm getting at here?

See what I’m getting at here?

Other than trying to explain something in a very bad way, no, not really.

the bikes that are intended for the sort of riding you want to do (general trail) don’t weigh sub-25lbs any more! To get that sort of weight, you’re looking at much more race-focused bikes, which won’t be as suited for general trail riding.

A bike with around 100-120mm travel is exactly the kind of bike I'm after. Just because they are 'race focussed', as you say, doesn't mean I can't just ride them on gentle trails, or in Alpine type areas, or indeed anywhere really. I don't have to race on one. And it appears there are bikes that weigh sub-25lbs; I've had several suggestions so far. Those are very close to what I'm after.

insist on some arbitrary number that isn’t relevant

To you. It's relevant to me. Because it's about a bike for me. If I'm after something like a Lotus Exige, why recommend a Ford Fiasco or whatever they're called these days? If I'm in a restaurant, and fancy something with chicken, why suggest something with beef? See what I'm getting at here? 😉

You know what, I've tried to help but I'm out.

. If I’m after something like a Lotus Exige,

But you are wanting that Exige to pootle to the shops, then occasionally drive across Europe. Great track day car, shit for the weekly shop or grand tours (or rather, there are much better options)

Did you mention how much you and kit weighed?

There’s nothing quite so irritating as someone who thinks they’re still an expert, asks for advice from people who know what the current state of whatever it is is, and then ignores any advice that doesn’t match with their outdated views. Welcome back to mountain biking. Update us next year when you realise you were wrong. Cheers.