[Closed] Getting a bike fit - essential or snake oil?

Neither essential nor snake oil. Any help?

As far as the trainer goes, consider a wobble-board (rocker plate) for it. That definitely improved things for me.

If you are comfortable with your bike and can do long distances without pain then why **** about with it according to what some "expert" says?

If you aren't comfortable with it then some guidance might help.

If you're struggling to get comfortable, then possibly worth it. As you have a baseline that you find comfortable, I'd try replicating the position and setup as a first step.
Same saddle on both?
Set at same angle?
Set at same measurements saddle to bars, both length and height?
Is it just as simple as you move about on your road bike a bit more than you do on the trainer? Even if it's just a brief change of position such as coming off the saddle to stop at junctions on road that doesn't happen on the trainer

What kind of trainer are you on? The geometry of your trainer is probably very different to that of your road bike so those measurements might need a tweak.

If you were able to get your road bike set up such that you can ride for a long time without issue then you probably know enough to get the trainer in the same place. Agree with scotroutes that a rocker plate might help, I was getting pretty numb on my trainer before getting a rocker plate. It's helped me a lot on anything over an hour.

I've never had a bike fitting as I like to think I know just about enough to get me close enough to optimal. I am considering one for my next bike purchase though, simply because of availability - if I have to order one I want to make sure I order the right size (will be my first gravel bike and the sizing is different enough to road/MTB that it's not worth guessing IMO).

I got one when I was having knee pain on long rides.

I went to NJD in Clitheroe as they're not far away and I was attracted by the combination of physio & bike fit skills.

As well as making a few tweaks to my bike set-up (I was pretty much there TBH) they gave my shoe wedges and insoles, which made a massive difference in counteracting my slight bow-legs and flat feet.

Would recommend a similar service if available in Spain.

I had one as I had a few issues on the road bike, bit of knee pain, bit of foot pain, bit of neck pain.
For me, it dealt with the issues and was worth the money. They didn't do anything revolutionary, just a tweak or 2 that fixed the issues.

Interesting one. As with many things, fitters cover a spectrum. This seems to run from a sales tool to make people more confident in their size choice to people who are biomechanically aware. Somewhere in the middle are the ones who will adjust your position so it matches the ranges found on the fastest riders in the world whose full time job is riding a bike.

A good fitter shouldn't be charging you extra for tweaks. I'm also weary of anyone who bike fits from one side only. Bikes might be symmetrical, but the riders aren't.

It's not about whether you knee is between X and y but more about how changing things effects the rest of your body on the bike.

I think the good ones can make a difference. How much can vary depending on how off your position is to start with.

On the rare occasion I use a trainer, my nob goes numb. However, it's the same bike at the same angle that I can ride all day on so there is probably something in the above suggestion of a wobble board.

Bikefitjames might be worth a look. His delivery might be an acquired taste but the content seems to pass the logic test. He'll often point out that fitting a bike to a slightly overweight middle ages desk jockey is completely different to a 20s pro athlete.

My advice would also be to avoid anyone who uses knee over pedal spindle and ball of foot over pedal spindle as a set. As a start point, maybe, as a set point, no.

I was behind a friend on a road bike and told him his hips were rocking so his saddle was too high.

A week or so (and £130) later he told me that his bike-fit had made him much better. The conclusion was to drop the saddle a touch.

told him his hips were rocking

Wish I got compliments like this from my riding buddies.

Thanks all, I've never really had to tweak anything on a mtb or road bike to get comfy. I adjust the saddle height and that's about it. But the trainer at home (a Wattbike) that I got in September does give me numbness even when I'm trying to get out of the saddle at every opportunity. Not sure if a rocker plate works with Wattbike. I did buy a new saddle for the Wattbike the same as both the mtb and road bike (a Genesis saddle) but didn't help much.

Also I'm not in Spain anymore unfortunately, so there are plenty of places around London to choose from. Any particular local recommendations welcome

I had a bike bit many years ago (came free with a new bike). Came home with the newly fitted bike and measured it against my existing bike. Exactly the same. The original bike had just been tweaked iteratively till it felt 'right'. So unless I was after a new position eg TT bike, I wouldn't bother with one again.

My bike fit was ... meh. Seemed competent, but the only real upshot was "you're flexible, the exact fit won't matter too much, you can probably ride anything." Which is kinda useful, but not exactly what I was expecting.

Trying a few different saddles helped more - I've actually gone with a very-narrow-with-a-cut-out one for the Zwift bike.

Also, rather than spending loads on a wobble board, I cut up a 7 or 8 quid camping mat from Sports Direct and put it under my trainer and its legs several layers deep (also raised front wheel) to give some movement, and comfort increased massively - struggling to reach an hour went to ok for 2 hours.

Also I’m not in Spain anymore unfortunately, so there are plenty of places around London to choose from. Any particular local recommendations welcome

If you feel there may be any underlying MSK issues, it might be worth thinking about the place I recommended.

Not exactly local, but you could make a trip of it and enjoy the road riding in the nearby Trough of Bowland or head over to the Lakes.

I would say it's just a step in the process.

I've been plagued by low back and hip issues which are more postural/physio related rather than bike fit, but last time I went to fitter (I was convinced I was sat squint in saddle) he confirmed my suspicions and gave me a few pointers that I would never have though of myself (lowering bars and pushing saddle back, exactly the opposite of what I had been doing).

In general it has helped but I'm still fiddling a lot with saddle position (amazing how much difference a bit of tilt can make) and I'm still squint in saddle, but that's not the fitters fault, it's my horrific muscular imbalances!

I’d say yes possibly if you’re an athlete/competing or spend all day on a bike (courier etc) and so need to maximise performance and efficiency to the nth.

But how to choose a bike-fit expert may be an issue. We are all different with different levels of conditioning. So I think the first goal is to Know Thyself.

But how?

Use readily available calculators to buy (or adjust) a bike in the right ballpark (seat-tube, top tube, crank length) and then fine-tune adjusting stem length/orientation and seat-height/tilt/fore/aft.

If a road bike (ie you find that your optimal seat-height doesn't change throughout a ride) then you could additionally use the KOPS rule (plumb line from knee bump to centre pedal (when positioned at 3 O’ clock) as a general guide for weight distribution/efficiency.

Beyond those simple measures (unless experiencing pain or discomfort* from regular riding) then you’re into peak athlete territory and may benefit from a professional fitting. But even Q-factor is marginal regarding performance so you may not experience any miracles unless you got it very badly wrong to begin with.

I know that I’m a 55cm road bike and 17.5 MTB, 170 cranks, no probs there - but after 35+ years am still messing around with bars and grips seemingly every few months 🤣

*Not including pain/discomfort from poor-conditioning

Bucket loads of really useful info here...

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com/faq/

I certainly felt more efficient and comfortable on the road bike after a bike fit. It was worth it for me.

Fwiw, I ignored the local £150-200 "super video studio" fitters and like a lot of local riders went to Andy Bishop in Worksop - basic video and loads of experience for what was at the time (5 years ago) £65.

Edit - not so much for the bike tweaks, as I'd got it fairly close, but cleat set up was slightly out.

(To the room self) Mustn’t forget the all-important contemporary metric in addition to traditional fit-systems. By that I mean PIe (AKA mid-section interference)

ie: Where PIe = N+1 ∴ (danger-zone)

Radically-sloping top-tubes* are also not just for fitties. A radically-wide Q-factor** coupled with a dropped top tube can allow for a wider-range of PIe.

*This can effectively solve ‘pork-panniers’ where a rider may before have no choice but to bisect/fold the PIe-zone with/around the TT, forming a kind of fleshy ‘pannier’ either side of the tube.

** Widening the knees can allow the PIe-zone to escape knee-battering.

@eckinspain

Reviews tend to be either a) these are amazing, it’s such a great thing to do, it’s helped me loads or b) I had to go back three times and they charged me extra each time and I went to two guys and they told me different things so they are clearly making it up.

The good guys are very very good, the bad guys are terrible, there are a lot of conmen and incompetents in the business (like coaches as well).

There are also three or four systems/concepts, all that will give you a slightly different answer to the same question...

@onzadog

My advice would also be to avoid anyone who uses knee over pedal spindle and ball of foot over pedal spindle as a set. As a start point, maybe, as a set point, no.

This can't be over emphasised enough, there are a *lot* of fitters who start with getting balls of feet over spindles, then knees over spindle and considering that as a firm foundation for an entire fit.

The good guys are very very good, the bad guys are terrible, there are a lot of conmen and incompetents in the business (like coaches as well).

I suspect it's more like the fitter you see is using a system that works for you or doesn't - it's not a black and white subject and there is a huge variety in physical differences between riders. Just like physios, sometimes they can find a quick fix to your aching back, sometimes they can't. Doesn't necessarily mean they're crap.

I ride with a coach who does bike fits and he has interesting stories. The biggest problem he finds now is modern road bikes with bespoke seatpost, integrated stems etc make it very hard to adjust the position. He's had customers quite upset when he basically tells them that the multi £k bike they've bought doesn't fit them and in some case refunded them as a result. With standard 27.2mm seat posts he has a stock of different types (layback, seat rail position etc) so he can make adjustments during the fit. Turn up with a custom aero seatpost and you can't change the saddle position and it won't fit half the saddles he stocks. Also fitting a longer stem with internally routed gear cables and hydraulic brakes can be a total nightmare.

Eg my wife and I have had completely different experiences with the chap. About 15 years ago I was getting ITBFS and mentioned it on a ride. He looked at my position while riding along and said move your saddle forward an inch. I did and the ITBFS vanished and never came back. I was very impressed.

My wife gets back problems riding and has had multiple multi-hour bike fits with him and they've made no difference.

Same person, different experiences.

I keep seeing ads for the myvelofit app & have considered giving that a go for the turbo trainer & road bike.

"Neither essential nor snake oil. Any help?"
Question answered.

But on the subject of indoor training and saddles.

Ex-professional bike fitter here. For a few years I did nothing else (not even bike sales) as I was so busy. That doesn’t mean I was any good by the way- just shows the demand at the time!

Agree that some are good and some terrible. My first thought is to decide what you are trying to achieve (comfort/ pain relief/ performance/ injury prevention etc). And secondly talk to a few fitters, then decide if/where to spend your money. Don’t just walk into the LBS and ask if they do them.

In London Cyclefit used to be excellent, but I’ve been out of the bike fit world for 3+ years now so things may have changed.

I'd say a bike fit, from a good bike fitter is essential, but maybe not the only way of solving your problem.

Under carriage pain on the turbo is pretty common. You're not moving in the same way you do on the road and are much more static in the saddle. Use a good chamois cream to ease friction and look at a rocker plate for your turbo.

As for a bike fit, if you're in West Yorkshire, speak with James at http://www.fit2ride.cc/

I've been to James twice and his knowledge, patience, expertise and attention to detail are second to none. Things that made a huge difference to my ride were saddle angle (very minor tweak), saddle and custom insoles (a huge difference).

At my second visit I went to get insoles for new shoes and check some overall fit issues due to a knee injury. Rather than just take my money for a full appointment, he explained why my choice in shoes was completely wrong, made a minor tweak to a wedge in my existing shoe and also my cleats. He charged me a fraction of what a full fit would have cost and solved my issues.

A good fitter makes a huge difference.

I rode around for decades on a setup arrived at through feel, experimentation, and using self-taken measurements inserted into free online guides and the classic methods available in many guide books. I then decided out of interest to have a full blown Cyclefit fit just in case, mostly to prevent future injury. After a few hours and many hundreds of pounds later the fit output recommended that all I needed to do was lower my saddle height by 2mm, everything else was spot-on. I rode around for a few months with the 2mm lower setup then put it back up to exactly where it was before, as that felt better....so to conclude, I'm not sure its necessary in all cases - but perhaps only if the individual is willing it put the effort in themselves to 'find' their position in a more oldskool way, and accept that it's something that evolves as you age/ train and change equipment.

Anyone can go on a Retul bike fit course and be able to follow the programme in order to claim to set you up properly.  A good bike fitter, uses the tool alongside their knowledge and experience to adjust that to suit your feedback and requirements.

If they just use Retul and say you are good to go, that is not the bike fit I would be expect to give you the best results, which ultimately you are after.

My bike fit include analysing my flexibility for example to help to determine a comfortable yet efficient position.

@eckinspain you say it's a wattbike? They have a setup tool to mirror the position from your bike of choice. Doesn't take long and worked well for us, give it a try.

Wattbike

Use Wattbike a lot. Things that may help.

Their standard racing saddle is not very comfy, especially if you’re not wearing a chamois. Buy their comfort fit saddle or a decent bib / chamois.

If you are short their standard cranks may be longer than your bike. My preference is 165mm rather than their standard but I don’t have a choice at current studio.

Make sure your cleat position is correct. A lot cheaper than a bike fit if you installed yourself. Most fitting places seem to do it for 20 or so.

Most people come out of a fit being told to lower their saddle.

@snownrock thanks - I didn't use that when I measured up so I'll try it.

@sillysilly that's interesting because I did an hour's workout tonight in my new bib shorts and it was much better than my others which I've realised are 15 years old! So that's a good start and an excuse to buy new bibs!
I think the comfort saddle is out of stock and has been for some time. I did replace the original Wattbike saddle.
I'm currently using toeclips so that my wife can use the pedals too, but frankly she uses it so infrequently that I'm going to change to SPDs soon which may also help.
I'll measure the cranks too.

Aaaa, toe clips & trainers suck. The second you are putting anything approaching decent watts down they will flex and everything upwards will fall to pieces.

Get some rigid carbon soled cycling shoes that fit well and it will make a massive difference.

Where in the country are you. I tried to get bike fitters to fit me for a wattbike and they looked at me like I was on crack even where they had them in the same building. I got fitted on road bike to get geometry to set up watt bike.

If you just go to a studio/gym that has wattbikes and turn up before the class there are usually people around that can give some good tips on fitting for free. Few round London that do Coaching sessions that can look at fit for a 3rd of the cost of a full fitting. Very different and not fare to compare but can also be very helpful.

I do have cycling shoes but yes using them without SPD pedals is rubbish, you're right.

Thanks for the tip about trying gyms and studios.

I rode around for a few months with the 2mm lower setup then put it back up to exactly where it was before, as that felt better

Did you remove the pea from under the mattress after you put the saddle back? 😉

BC Coach and sometime bike fitter here. People really aren’t THAT variable (Excl. the Isla bike thread). It’s not that hard to get people to a decent position on standard bikes with so many stems available. A fit can help but I personally think the fundamentals are relatively straightforward. I can look at a rider and assess gross positional errors in an instant. Normally it’s saddle position too high or far back. Get that right and then set reach and stack for day long comfort with ability to control the bike.

Also you can easily ride a modern bike a size down and sometimes two sizes down. You can go one size up, but handling suffers on a bike that’s too big. I’ve on occasion had to tell people their bike is too big and that affects handling, but too small is less likely.

Normally it’s saddle position too high or far back.

This is why I think there's still something very wrong with me, comfort seems to get better the further back my saddle goes! I've maxed out how far back the Power Arc saddle can go ony turbo bike (short rails and only 15mm layback post right enough)

Used Cyclefit in London many years back (top tip, don't drive out of the lane they're based on, and into the carpark opposite unless you want an extortionate charge, there's an NCP to the right, apparently), came to the conclusion that the bikes were set up fine, and sold me new insoles and wedges to help with my left knee problem (it did help, but didn't fix). A couple of years later, still suffering the same issues, I found a local physio that did cycle fitting (Andy Berry, in Cardiff), who picked up in minutes that it wasn't actually a knee problem, but the muscles in my left butt-cheek not firing. Some simple exercises sorted the issue that i'd been trying to fix with shoes, pedals, and fiddling for more years than i'd like to admit. Take from that what you will, but sometimes it's not the obvious things that cause problems, and having an expert involved can save both time and money

comfort seems to get better the further back my saddle goes!

Exactly the sort of thing where a bike fitter may be helpful. Having seat far back will lower weight on arms/hands which may feel more comfortable but may mean you are not pedalling as efficiently as using one muscle group more than other.
You can get a similar effect by lowering saddle without the muscle imbalance.
I am clearly just guessing based on bike fits I have seen but I do think you have a use case that may benefit from it. Either that or just stay as you are if you are comfortable...

As a new roadie in 2014, i was suffering with numbness on longer rides.

I went to twenty3c in Stony Stratford (MK), for a bike fit, it made a big difference.

It was definitely worth the money in my mind at the time though, they also provided a pdf of the fit which has been used since.

Sounds like I have to go up North (of Watford) to find a decent fitter. Surely there must be some advantages to living in London - any decent London fitters/physios?

This is why I think there’s still something very wrong with me, comfort seems to get better the further back my saddle goes!

Do you lower the saddle at the same time? Giant produced a semi-recumbent with exactly this exaggerated geometry. If you don't lower the saddle, you'll over extend your ITB as the saddle moves back.

BTW Knee over pedal spindle is really about where the weight is taken through the legs. When well-placed on the saddle most of the rider weight will be through the legs (which are pushing down), so the arms and especially wrists and palms don't get stressed. It's a decent starting point.