[Closed] Geometry, princess and the pea

How close were the angles, weights, and tyres?

I think some folks can genuinely feel it.

For most folk it's a case of "Mleh, that's about right/ I can get used to it) and after 5 mins you've totally got used to it.

It may not have been the geometry that made those two bikes feel so different.

We humans are very very sensitive to all sorts of things and we can detect 'stuff' that shouldn't make any difference but just make us feel different. Brake lever 'feel' is a classic example; brakes still slow the bike but some 'feel' better than others etc...

Everyone has different opinions - so all sorts of bikes are available for sale but not all sell that well due to these minor variations in peoples feelings and preferences :o)

The only 2 differences I can pick out is the overall length and head angle. There's a 1.5 degree difference (72 vs 73.5). Apart from the weight that is, there was about 3 kilo difference. Both rolling on 25mm tyres.

My worry is that my newly ordered frame (Trek Crockett, if it ever turns up) has very similar geometry to my Croix de fer, which I hated.

Strangely with my Croix de fer, I thought it handled much nicer when loaded up for some light touring.

There’s a 1.5 degree difference (72 vs 73.5). Apart from the weight that is, there was about 3 kilo difference. Both rolling on 25mm tyres.

Paddy could never tell his two horses apart, until one day he spotted that the white horse was three inches taller than the black one.

My worry is that my newly ordered frame (Trek Crockett, if it ever turns up) has very similar geometry to my Croix de fer, which I hated.

Sorry, but i have to ask... Why have you just ordered a bike with the same geo as one you hated if you have any reservations that it may have been the geo that was the issue??

Apart from the weight that is, there was about 3 kilo difference

Definitely down to the geometry, and nothing to do with the weight. Oh no.

They rode totally different though

What were the differences in how they rode? Did one feel generally quicker (handling) than the other?

I couldn't notice 1 or 2mm between bikes but I would notice 3kg and I woudl notice a change in lenght but not if only 2mm.

I had grail rims on XT hubs so the wheels weren't super heavy compared to the Alex rims on deore hi s they replaced so from what I've ever been told it should still have been quick on the flat as a lighter framed bike bike with similar wheels but it wasn't 😭

Like I said up above, just worried that my new cross frame will ride like sh+t. As the geometry is almost the same as the Croix de Fer.

Paddy could never tell his two horses apart, until one day he spotted that the white horse was three inches taller than the black one.

Hilarious. Those Irish people are so stupid aren't they.

So if a few milimetres aren't really noticeably then is it all marketing bollocks about changing seat and head tubes by half a degree.

As my newly built bike (if it ever turns up) will be er new, I'm sure I'll convince myself it's the dogs b$llocks even if it's just a dog.

Croix de fer (now sold) and Ritchey road logic had quite a similar geometry and dimensions with only a few milimetres difference.

Really? I doubt that but, maybe. The Ritchey will be made of much lighter tubing though. And almost certainly a steeper head angle, faster steering. Might be 3kg lighter, could feel lighter still to ride on road. The CdF was designed fairly stiff partly so it wasn't too flexy when loaded. Not really an ideal bike to ride on 25C as a road bike imo, I wouldn't like it set up that way.

is it all marketing bollocks about changing seat and head tubes by half a degree.

Depends on the bike, half a degree or 6mm offset on a FS bike with all that's going on and moving about, not many would spot it compared to shock set up or tyre pressure. On a light road bike half a degree HTA or 5mm on the offset is a change in feel imo/ime, but still no real difference to others.
Where I do think differently to many these days is that a change on a road bike top tube or reach isn't anything to worry about, I shuffle about and get in balance on bikes between 560 and 580ish on the top tube, all with similar 73 seat angles. Bar and saddle shape, where I hold the STIs etc, all makes as much or more difference in where I'm positioned than 10mm reach. Yet some riders have bike fit numbers in mind that have to be within 5mm or less. You get used to a bike and adjust though, fit's not a fixed thing and shouldn't be.

Blackdog, I never checked. 🤫

Silly I know. 😖

I've never really bought into the whole bike fit thing as a general rule all my bikes are different so it's not like I could transfer the numbers over so they were all the same. But then would you want them all to be the same?

I have in the past fallen into the trap of buying a new bike only then to slowly change components, to end up with a bike that looks similar to my old bike.

But then would you want them all to be the same?

imo not unless the bikes are all the same and ridden in the same way? Maybe a summer/race road bike and a winter road bike would be close in fit. Mine aren't, they're close but not the same. If I was a pro I might need them to be / coach might say they should be.

Maybe others have already said this in a more subtle way, but I consider 1.5 degrees difference in head angle to be a huge difference. Like “slap you in the face on every steep corner” Huge.

Maybe others have already said this in a more subtle way, but I consider 1.5 degrees difference in head angle to be a huge difference.

Yep. And 73.5 degrees is STEEP! Pro-road racing bike steep.

Which one has that HT?

My Ritchey Logic 2, I like it. It is rather nippy but I've descended down a few 2000+ metre alpine mountains on it and it handled well. I run it with 100mm stem too but with 440mm bars.