You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Self proclamined or certified experts, either way is fine.
The stack height on my bike (Orbea Rise) is fairly low. It also feels quite short and tall. None of those things are particularly helpful when it comes to handling.
It was incredibly unstable on flat twisty stuff when I first got it and on steeps, I always felt I was teetering on the edge of going over the bars. It's the first 29er I've ever ridden and havi g a massive ehweel hitting me in the arse doesn't help.
From standard, I've added 20mm of spacers under the bars and gone up to a 30mm riser that I trimmed to 760mm. It's better in that the bike handles better on flat ground and it does feel more stable generally but its made a short bike feel even shorter and still doesn't go round corcers anywhere near as well as my HT (Orange Crush). In comparison, the HT feels like a missile on twisty stuff where the Rose feels like I'm just aiming for a corner and hoping for the best.
I'm sure part of this is technique but I can definitely ride the HT way more aggressively that I can the Rise.
Last ride, I tried slamming the stem (50mm 0 rise) to see if the marginal gain in effective reach made a difference and while it still felt comfortable and didn't lift the front wheel so much on climbs, it made movements like popping the front over a rain bar and manuals really difficult. The front end felt heavy and dead and felt like my hands were too low. My neck and shoulder were sore which I assume is from forcing myself to keep my head up.
Part of me thinks that lifting the bars up again and fitting a longer stem (+10mm) would help. I'll be getting more reach and my hands won't be so low but at the same time, another part of me thinks that I'll just be moving my weight even further forward so getting my weight back will be even more difficult.
Ive just fitted an offset bushing to try and mitigate the tall, balanced on top feeling that I was getting. I'm aware that will have moved my hands closer to me which probably isn't what I needed but at the same time a slightly slacker front and lower BB should be helpful.
Other options I've considered is going +10mm on the fork or a 9point8 slackeriser (but inline) to extend the reach. I've considered going to a 27.5 rear wheel but the geo changes that come with it are quite big and there's no compensation for it in the frame (flip chip or whatever).
Extreme option is admit that the bike isn't quite the right shape for me but a new one is most certainly not on the cards for the foreseeable. £30 on a stem however is something I can stomach.
Do we reckon it'll make it better? Or worse? Any other options to make the bike feel more roomy and less wobbly?
I the time it's taken me to type all that, I could have just ordered a new stem...
Maybe a layback seatpost is what you need rather than more weight forward. Is that even a thing with droppers? How much slide do you have on the saddle rails. That'd not even cost 30 quid to try.
But yeah, sounds like it might be too small for you.
Your stem is already what I would consider a bit too long… your descriptions are also a bit at odds so I wonder what is missing from the puzzle?
What size are you and the bike? Re the current info, personally, and clearly these are my just my musings, I would be setting up my suspension from scratch (sag first then rebound and damping, bracket to see if anything changes that dead feeling) and sticking on a slightly higher and wider riser bar. Obviously if the bikes geometry is wrong for you then it may be a challenge… too small and good geometry still feels lively and flickable to me. Crap geometry that doesn’t suit me just feels, well, crap, whatever the size. Good luck sorting 🙂
I’d be more worried about the steering characteristics change going longer than a 50mm stem than being pulled too far forward but that may not be an issue to you depending on how and where you ride.
You can also use bar roll to adjust where you are in relation to the front wheel, rolled back will move you off the front but be prepared to have to trust the tyre grip more. Personally I’d go with a 50mm stem with some rise and a 50mm bar, play about with roll then look at suspension settings
Interesting thoughts. I dont have any suggestions, but am keen to see what others say. I have a similar situation myself. Bike feels slightly short which is great for trail riding but not perfect for steeper/faster/rowdier descending.
You mentioned feeling like you're going over the bars on steep stuff. I'd expect a longer stem would make that worse?? Becuase it would pull you further over the front wheel. I'm currently running a 42mm stem and have not gone to 50mm beuase this is my assumption, but I might be compeltely wrong. I guess I should try it 🙂
It definitely sounds like it doesn't fit you or at least doesn't suit you but that is a big thing to handle. So yes you're right, stems are so cheap that it's not even worth writing threads about it, just experiment. Probably someone will have a nice one if you ask in classifieds, because 60mm stems are so very uncool
Cheers guys.
What size are you and the bike?
Sorry, I forgot to add that. I'm 5'7 with a 30' inseam. Bike is a medium. A large wouldn't have worked because of the seat tube length. Even on a M, the seat tube is a bit long for my liking.
It's weird, the bike doesn't feel too small and it isn't really cramped when I'm riding it. The saddle to handle bar measurement is definitely shorter than my HT and I think the steeper seat tube angle on the Rise exaggerates that.
Whenever I think about it being too short, I remember the days of my old Kona Coiler where I used to hit my knees on the bars if I wasn't careful. That was a short bike and the Rise is nowhere near that.
On suspension settings , fork is a Mezzer pro and it rides beautifully. I'd like the rebound to be faster but I'm already running it wide open. Next time I service it, I'll be removing a shim from the rebound to speed it up a bit but it's only borderline too slow. Like I want one more click. Otherwise, it nice and supportive and eats chunky stuff. Read shock is a Float X that's 'ok'. It's not as active as I'd like but it it was cheap. And, it's better than the DPS that came on the bike.
I'm thinking higher rise bars (50mm) and perhaps shifting the saddle back makes more sense than a longer stem.
The feeling of going over the front on a modern geo bike makes me think it's with too small 5'7"/medium doesn't sound small though, or you're riding too low in the fork travel.
People can often run low pressures chasing a supple feel and then use ramp chamber or tokens to resist bottom out. Try setting it more linear but at a higher pressure to give less dynamic sag. More supported front end might help with the confidence and allow you to weight the front wheel more giving more traction. While moving forward sounds counter intuitive, loading the front will give more traction and help even out the imbalance between front and rear centre that's often not discussed on modern bikes.
This might also explain why you feel you're outside of the rebound adjustment. More pressure will make it rebound faster. Rebound damping is more dependent on spring force whereas compression is more about rider feel. Unless you're silly light, I'd not expect you to be outside the rebound range in a Mezzer.
Stack height is way too low on most bikes IMO.
Spacer stacks shorten the reach, so the answer is the highest bars you can find.
Both of my sussers are now running unfashionably long 50mm stems and Whisky Milhouse bars. Sadly no longer available, and expensive.
Everything about it is better for me.
I would second @Onzadog and the higher pressure as a simple starter for 10. The pressure can be too low but they feel “nice” yet still upset the balance and feel in other areas.
The bike does also have a lower stack height than some so a riser bar will sort that but I would have thought it shouldn’t be too small. 🙂
If you are
New bike 🤣
What size is your Crush? Rise is an E-bike isn't it? If so I'd imagine the extra weight will be the biggest factor in it feeling different to the Orange? Looking at the current Rise geometry it seems pretty middle of the road?
Is yours the H with a 140mm fork?
My rise came with 140mm but I changed the fork to a 160mm Lyrik before I even rode it.
It does feel a bit short for me pedalling but fine descending.
I’ve got a 9point8 angleset in mine which made it feel more confident coming down. I’m actually considering removing it to see how it feels and see if it makes it feel a bit more lively.
I've had a couple of Cube bikes, both of which felt shorter than the numbers suggested. Never could work out why?
You sure this isn't just a shorter vs longer chainstay handling difference? I'm 179cm and ride a large Occam - fits me like a glove. Chainstay is on the longer side for a trail bike (440) compared to a few years ago, so does require a slightly different approach to a short CS 27.5" hardtail. Swapping wheel size at the same time won't help either.
Try it and see, I put a 70mm stem on a modern bike and haven't looked back.
More weight on the front wheel, more grip, more control, more speed.
Had to push the saddle right back on my other half's Rise. You're probably used to a slacker seat angle.
Does it have a high/low flipchip in the rocker? Set it low.
If not (or already done this), run less pressure in the rear shock. It's a very progressaive leverage curve so is fine running loadsa sag IME. And defo run high rise bars. The answer is not a longer stem. Ever.
I've had a couple of Cube bikes, both of which felt shorter than the numbers suggested. Never could work out why?
My "58cm" Cube Attain GT Disc '16 is smaller than 58 suggests, no tube is 58cm long (the top tube is 57cm, seat post 54cm iirc) and I'm hardly a giant at 177cm with 82cm cycling inseam (so short legs, long torso).
It's the stack on my Cube that makes it feel small/upright at a whopping 610mm compared with 388mm reach (the "56cm" is 591/385mm iirc), but when my lower back goes ping as if often does, that extreme endurance or gravel geo it's very welcome.
Given you've got the Mezzer Pro, that's an easy option to try it with increased fork travel (assuming you've got the travel spacers. It'd reduce your reach very slightly is the downside but might be worth it for the increased stack.
Ok, lots to reply to! Thanks for all the suggestions.
On the fork setup, it's not too soft. I hate the low pressure high ramp feeling (rockshox... Grrrr). Mezzer is pretty linear with the air pressures where they are (43 main, 68 IRT). If I go softer on the main, it's super supple but mushy. If I go higher (50ish) it's skittish over fast repeated hits (so anything rocky). I arrived at these pressures after a lot of tinkering.
Slow rebound is a 'feature' on the Mezzer. The rebound is digressive and it's only the LSR that adjustable. HSR is too slow so you end up running the LSR wide open to compensate. It's poppy enough on jumps etc.
I guess if I speed up the HSR by losing one of the shims, I could probably get away with more LSR which might mean I can up the pressure in the main chamber slightly.
What size is your Crush?
Its a Medium also. The biggest difference for me sitting on them both is that the Crush feels longer. I think the difference is this
You're probably used to a slacker seat angle.
I might take some measurements so properly compare the two.
Is yours the H with a 140mm fork?
It's is an H but came with a 150 Bonber Z2. I swapped for a Mezzer @ 150 which is the same axle to crown measurement as a fox 36 @150. Still considering upping it to 160 becaoit only take 5 mins and costs nothing.
If not (or already done this), run less pressure in the rear shock. It's a very progressaive leverage curve so is fine running loadsa sag IME
I have tried dropping the pressure on the shock but if I go much lower than where it is now (175psi) it feels fine for slow techy stuff but anything fast(ish), the back end starts to hang up on stuff which makes it really hard to carry any speed.
The answer is not a longer stem. Ever.
This seems to be what everyone is saying and I'm starting to agree with it. I don't think my problem is reach. Although the bike feels short, I think the issue is that my body position puts too much weight on the bars and that the bars are too low. I just looked at the bike side on and with the stem slammed, the bars are way below the level of the saddle. I'll put the spaces back under the stem for a start.
General consensus so far is higher rise bars. I think I'll give that a go. 50mm seems fairly common and gives me +20mm over the 30mm riser I've already got.
The answer is not a longer stem. Ever.
110% this ^^^^
Sometimes it is though. Both my main bikes have literally the shortest stems I could get on them but the previous one, despite everything saying it'd be the same, with similiar geo and literally the same forks and bars, was just better with 50mm. Couldn't tell you why, just some mysterious Personality Of The Bike thing.
Higher bars for sure - with the battery weight and longer chainstays on e-bikes the balance is so different - higher bars give you more leverage to chuck the bike about.
I tried a 35mm stem once, didn’t like it. And I think my Levo came with a 45mm stock stem. But both bikes have 50mm stems and I like how the steering and balance feels with them - maybe that’s because I ride a lot of natural trails with loose flat corners?
I went down to 35mm and it ruined the ride of the bike so went back up to 50mm. No idea if 35mm would work with my current bikes as I carried the other stems over.
I know it doesn't make any sense (for stood up riding) but... try sliding the saddle back on its rails a bit. The steep seat angle might be making the bike feel rather Jekyl and Hyde when seated vs stood. Where the saddle is does still affect stood up handling IME.
Maybe I have missed it, but I am reading the comparisons based on sitting on the bikes.
Is this a seated while pedalling problem, or a descending while standing problem?
I know it doesn't make any sense (for stood up riding) but... try sliding the saddle back on its rails a bit. The steep seat angle might be making the bike feel rather Jekyl and Hyde when seated vs stood. Where the saddle is does still affect stood up handling IME.
Yeah, this makes sense. I had shifted the saddle as forward as possible (I have a moon light mount on the rails). The seat tube is the worst combination of being tall yet not allowing a decent insert depth for a dropper. I've squeezed a 180 one up in there but I've got ~45mm of post above the ST. That means the saddle is still in the way slightly so I shifted it forwards so I had a bit more space off the back.
It didn't really make a difference and I never slid it back so I'll do that next ride.
Is this a seated while pedalling problem, or a descending while standing problem?
To be honest, I think I've got more than one problem with position/ fit. The main issue here is more obvious when seated but still present when standing. At least when I'm descending, I can move around to shift my weight. When I'm seated, it feels like all my weight is on the bars and I haven't really got anywhere to go.
Also feels like my arms are over extended and I'm having to push myself up to keep my head up. I'm trying to figure out whether this is because the bars are too low or whether the bike is too short. It's possibly both but based on the input so far, I'm leaning towards the bar height being the bigger issue.
My Levo initially felt short despite being similar reach (3mm shorter) to my Big Al that feels long - 28mm less stack though. I wanted a different colour stem anyway, so I went from 35mm to 42mm and put 50mm risers on. Feels perfect now
Try ditching the stem spacers and fitting a higher rise bar. The spacers will bring your bars backwards as they get taller, the high rise bars will just go up and not back.
if you can borrow a longer stem then try it, although it probably won’t make the bike any better
Also just ride it a shedload and you’ll probably get used to it.
“The spacers will bring your bars backwards as they get taller, the high rise bars will just go up and not back.”
Well that depends entirely on your bar roll. If it’s adjusted so the rise is parallel to the head angle* then it’ll be the same as using spacers to gain height.
*It’s not just me that has the roll around this angle on one bike, there’s pro bike checks with the bars like this.
One of the effects of steeper seat angles is that reach when sat down is shorter, and you can feel like you've got more weight on your hands. It's a mix of getting used to it, and adjusting seat height/angle/position plus your bar height. I wouldn't compare too much to your hardtail as that will have a slacker SA.
I agree that on that type of bike you want between 30-50mm stem. It might be worth adjusting your seat angle as well, perhaps posting a picture of your bike would be useful. If you tilt your seat more forward it can take pressure off your behind, meaning you put more weight on it, therefore reducing pressure on your hands.
Right, this afternoon I took delivery of some 60mm Renthal Fatbars. They're on the bike ready for a trial run tomorrow
Sitting on the bike in the garage they seem to put my hands in a nice position, I don't feel quite so 'on' the bike. I'll probably look at shifting g the saddle back a bit too once I'm out tomorrow.
Something which I hadn't even considered is that I don't enough slack in the brake hose and dropper cable to run them at full height. Previously, I had 20mm of spacers under the stem and a 30mm rise bar. I'd cut the hoses to work with that. I had to trim 10mm off the brake hose recently when I fitted a new chainstay so the hose is technically too short now.
It's a motor off, battery out job to replace the hose and having dropped the motor 2 weeks ago to swap the chainstay, I'm in absolutely no hurry to do that again quite so soon.
I trimmed the bars down to 800mm and settled on 7.5mm spacers under the stem and 12.5 on top. I've got just about enough slack to make that work. I'll fit new hoses/ cables at some point and then I can experiment going higher if necessary.
I've fitted them with the rise pretty much vertical so as not to reduce the reach. Feels good sitting on it so we'll see how it goes tomorrow.
Also feels like my arms are over extended and I'm having to push myself up to keep my head up. I'm trying to figure out whether this is because the bars are too low or whether the bike is too short. It's possibly both but based on the input so far, I'm leaning towards the bar height being the bigger issue.
I have this exact problem when my saddle is tilted too far down at the front.