[Closed] Future of UK Gravity Enduro?

It would be a shame to see the series disappear.

Last I heard was Si Patton from British Downhill was taking it on.

Glad it's surviving. Any word on the the miser sponsors?

Some info in here Wrecker...
[url= http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/what-bike-for-uk-gravity-enduro/page/2#post-4166066 ]
http://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/what-bike-for-uk-gravity-enduro/page/2#post-4166066 [/url]

I certainly wouldn't buy anything from that company.

Steve did throw some Fetish T Shirts to the crowd on Sun stating "Anyone want some rags?"

Having raced the last 2 years I'm really sorry to see Steve go, the series will lose that friendly, chilled out touch and will probably scare some of the new riders away.

None of this was Steve's fault, he had so many balls to juggle that yes, once or twice balls were dropped but this was inevitable in a new sport. The timing was bollox but again, this wasn't Steve's fault. But this undermined the whole event/series. The timing company should be ashamed of their performance over the last two years because its been a shambles

If the timing element is sorted Steve leaves behind a lasting legacy that I'm certain will succeed.

Sooooo, Fetish bikes; soon to be bankrupt then.

The timing company should be ashamed of their performance over the last two years because its been a shambles

Two years of ****ing up? I wish my customers were this tolerant...

What timing do they use for the Irish enduro series? Do they have the same problems?

Dyfi was my first round and I was hoping to do a few next year, shame it's gone this way.

Balls I'm gutted at this news, I had to pull out of the Dyfi round due to injury but I was planning to do two rounds next year. Such a shame.

Shame that, i did a few over the last two years and had a great time.....even the one where i concussed myself out of practice was a good weekend....the better half and me decided to go into town, book into a hotel instead and come back and watch the race on Sunday, the atmosphere was great, sound system playing excellent music, no elitism....the girlie isnt really into bikes but even she said it was a great event....she normally does Horsey stuff and to say they are stiff and snooty is an understatement, i hope Gravity Enduro doesnt go the same way.

the x-fusion enduro1 timings been pretty pants as well, if you overtake someone on a stage you invariably **** up the timings, they have no electronic system at all though

the x-fusion enduro1 timings been pretty pants as well, if you [b]are[/b] overtake [b]by[/b] someone on a stage you invariably **** up the timings, they have no electronic system at all though

ha ha scott we are gonna have your team at the next one!

Why you got more ringers? 😀

Looking forward to it!

shame to hear this. I entered 3 this year and had a great laugh. OK, maybe not so much at Coed Y Brenin but I dont think Steve could be blamed for the weather.

I hope the series keeps going next year

[url=

Gravity Enduro on Facebook[/url]

Mentioned this in the other thread, but contact tags as used by Innerleithen MTB Racing, No Fuss and the Transprovence among others are proven reliable. Steve made the call not to use that type of system because he felt noncontact systems were more professional IIRC, but IMO they did bring the problems on themselves a bit (there's a reason xc races using timing mats usually have a manual backup...). And the times-for-starts system adds a ton of complexity on top of that of course.

Not to fixate on negatives, just hoping to reassure people that there are methods that work, it's not an inherent issue with enduros. The Gravity Enduro series looks like it's using yet another system, hopefully it'll work out!

Main thing is- even with timing issues, people had a blast at these events. Enduro's a superb format because it can be great fun from the top to the bottom. That'll continue regardless of who's in charge or how it's run I'm sure.

Looks like it will be a series after all...

"The UK Gravity Enduro Series has proudly led the way for the UK Enduro racer. Sadly she is no longer so we are stepping upto the plate to deliver a national level series."

and

"The ball is rolling, lets start with timing:
This includes all timing services as used at BDS, plasma TV for commentary purposes at the final stage finish, gantry LED display, professional printed results, internet results hosted on our website and available for you for your use as required.

Results will be available for every category for individual stages and overall event classification for each category. We can also look at other classification methods you may require.
As usual, we guarantee 100% accurate, reliable and punctual results.

As usual – I would be happy to bring on board TAG Heuer
Dave - Sports Timing."

🙂

chakaping - Where did this info come from....enlighten us!

Chakaping's info is from here (link in my post)

mikesmith's link above

It is a shame about the UK Gravity Enduro but I'm glad there is going to be a British Gravity Enduro. It will give me a target for getting fitter than I was.

If Si Paton has anything to do with the project, it will be fantastic.

Just look at what he's done to the BDS - a truly world-class downhill race series

I wonder if they will have a minimum points entry system (like the BDS) ?

I wonder if they will have a minimum points entry system (like the BDS) ?

I'd be very surprised if they did. The discipline is sort-of pitched at people who don't want to race DH or XC, so I don't know where they'd get points from?

I wonder if they will have a minimum points entry system (like the BDS) ?

There would have to be regional rounds first wouldn't there for this to happen?

I expect it to be hugely popular - hopefully they will keep numbers to a sensible amount.

Maybe as more Enduro race series pop up in the future (and have BC points available), BES (British Enduro Series...) will become the 'fastest' Enduro racers

Essentially the same as the BDS..

EDIT: Sorry, should have made myself clearer - points in the future, not in 2013!

If Si Paton has anything to do with the project, it will be fantastic.

Just look at what he's done to the BDS - a truly world-class downhill race series

I wonder if they will have a minimum points entry system (like the BDS) ?

As someone who has raced numerous BDS rounds, I can view it without the rose tinted spectacles.

From a promotional perspective, yes i'll agree & will probably do a good job of ramming down everyone in the indutry's throats, which is what it needs to make it what it should be.

From a riding perspective. Probably not so great. Still at least with a Gravity Enduro there won't be 12 hours worth of uplift queues for 30 minutes of riding over a weekend...

Irish enduro also used the contact tag system northwind mentioned, didn't seem to be any problems with it.

I hear strava will be sponsoring it.....only joking.

If timing is sorted out then the series will be fine. 2 years in and still having timing problems is bad.

A smaller national series with more regional events would probably be good for longevity. Driving is getting to be one of the biggest costs in racing these days.

The plot thickens...

[url= http://wideopenmag.co.uk/news/15797/steve-parr-back-on-board-for-2013-uk-gravity-enduro ]Steve Parr will run a 2013 series after all[/url]

😐 Hmmm 24h that was a quick turn around.

scottfitz - Member

Hmmm 24h that was a quick turn around.

24 hours is a long time in racing 😉

24 hours is a long time in racing

He did this at the end of 2011 as well - decided there wouldn't be a 2012 series, got his ego massaged a bit from those who'd had fun racing and told him what a great all round chap he was for doing such a [s]half-arsed job with loads of timing issues and general teething problems that lasted the entire series[/s] great job. A week later he announced a 2012 series...

Shame none of the issues of the earlier 2011 round have ever been sorted out though 🙄

Well it'll be interesting to hear how his game is going to be upped.

The racing was great at the rounds I did. Just needs the timing sorting and the communications improving really.

See, I know he doesn't agree with this, but to me it's this simple...

1) bin the seeding.
2) remove the start times for stages
3) use a timing system that you know will work and which is simple.
4) there is no 4.

1 and 2 go together, this is how many other events run- you get a total time to complete the lap, and make your way between stages as fast or as slow as you like, as long as you complete them all within the allotted time. Because you decide when you start the stage, you can manage gaps and reduce holdups/overtaking - "You look a bit keen, go in front of me", that sort of thing, or waiting til there's a gap, etc.

Seeding's only needed to set out the stage start times, which in turn adds a massive stack of complexity and confusion, and that's where so many of the problems have been.

3, we've covered. It's ridiculous that their timing still doesn't work though.

The downside of this to them, is that without the seeding it becomes more of a 1-day event, and maybe that has an impact on cost/value. But on the other hand, rounds have sold out, and removing seeding would allow single-day attendance which is bound to draw more people. Practice on saturday would still be part of the weekend for most people though but at least it gives the option- which saves a lot of money and time, not having to stay overnight etc.

I agree with what Northwind said.

Have watched all this with interest, the format is still new so good to see people doing different things with it. The Gravity series has a more DH style ethos, with seeding runs and millionth of a second timing being v important, but lets face it a bit of a phaff. I did one event but I can't remember - do the fastest people go first ? That would make more sense to me if the idea is to prevent people catching each other. Actually I vaguely remember getting passed by Helen Gaskell so I think the fastest people went last which makes no sense for the ladies with such small fields and is DH style.

But I digress - Enduro race series need to decide to aim at Elite riders or weekend warriors. What pleases one group is largely just a hassle for the other.

1) bin the seeding.
2) remove the start times for stages
3) use a timing system that you know will work and which is simple.

1. Disagree, on a long stage I shudder to think that Dan Atherton/Crawfy/Clementz could come thundering past/through me at some point. Yes you can be all polite and sensible, but a lot of overtaking can take place on some of the stages that have been used. Seeding helps to lessen that..... I really enjoyed the seeding run at Inners this year and come Sunday it made perfect sense imo

2. This is where things get tricky as if you have point 1. you obviously need some control. Which is where sorting out the late-comer rules and communication between stages becomes critical, not quite sure (like the organisers) how that could/should work though.

3. Absolutely. Dibbers (the nice new wrist-bands ones they used in Ireland especially) all the way, until a genuinely fool-proof gate method can come along and better it

Women must be way more sensible, they tend to seed themselves anyway. But I guess the groups are smaller. In small groups it makes more sense to reverse seed, there must be a tipping point somewhere.

One aspect of seeding tho is that you can't ride around with your mates unless you are all in the same cat and roughly of the same ability, unless the transition times are super generous. But the up side of that is meeting new people, I rode around with all the ladies at the Inners one last year and met some new people, had great fun ! I was also the only person with a map so was a bit pied piper anyway.

The problem with 'aiming' at Weekend Warriors, is the Elite racers will still turn up - an easy podium for them...

1) i like the seeding, im crap so it means on race day im not holding up really fast boys

2) i agree a lot of the problems originate with the start times but, im sure that with decent organisation it can be sorted out, and they were pretty close to perfect at the 2 rounds i attended

3) this is obvious, get a decent system and the series will eb perfect everything else is running pretty well

i also like the fact that its a weekend,it adds to the atmos- the dates are given well in advance so people can book them well ahead

Absolutely Hels, Mr Legend does the occasional SDA and it's a far more sensible/civilised affair than the men!

Yeah the social side does completely change when you bring in seeding. I found the same as you, in February (or was it January?) I trundled around with folk I knew (then stopped and had lunch between stages 8) ) but at the UK one I trundled (at a slightly faster pace) with a bunch of friendly strangers - both were great!

Northwind's suggestion makes sense to me! The Enduro1 series used a manual synchronised clocks and clipboards approach which doesn't work terribly well (too much confusion when riders arrive out of sequence) and the results took an age to collate (race finished on Sunday, results out on Thursday - my team still hasn't been given the correct position for the last race because someone doesn't appear to be able to add up!)

It doesn't seem hard to split the event into two halves, elites vs the rest of us. Have the elites go first, then the rest of us.

For timings, ParkRun use some kind of fancy stopwatch whereby everyone shares a start time and then each person through the finish line is clicked in. You're given a barcode when you're clicked through the finish, which denotes your finish position (and thus your finish time) and then you get your personal barcode and position barcode scanned, which ties you to your position and thus your time. Some variant of that would work fine - scan your barcode when you start a stage, scan it when you finish a stage.

Personally I'd prefer the events to be one day, not two day - finding a whole free weekend, especially enough whole weekends for the entire series, is not logistically easy!

If you go unseeded, you don't need to worry as much as you might think about the fast boys- this aggregates itself out naturally, the quickest and keenest people want to be on the stages earlier than the slower people (and if they can't pull that off, well, that's part of the format, it's not all about descending).

Whereas with seeding, an unlucky moment or mechanical in the seeding run could leave Affy immediately behind you anyway, with no option to avoid it. (or, the organisers could stuff it up, I remember someone fuming about elites being sent out first after the woman's field at one event)

So it's not as though either is a perfect answer but only one of them can lead to total chaos on race day, whereas the potential issues with the other are more in control of the riders.

Anyway- so it seems to me, when you've got a complex system that doesn't work reliably then KISS is even better advice than normal.

For timings, ParkRun use some kind of fancy stopwatch whereby everyone shares a start time and then each person through the finish line is clicked in. You're given a barcode when you're clicked through the finish, which denotes your finish position (and thus your finish time) and then you get your personal barcode and position barcode scanned, which ties you to your position and thus your time. Some variant of that would work fine - scan your barcode when you start a stage, scan it when you finish a stage.

That sounds like a more complication version of the dibber setup. For dibbers you press your dibber against a box at the start, the again at the end of each stage. Repeat n times, hand over dibber get an instant print out of your results.

Personally I'd prefer the events to be one day, not two day - finding a whole free weekend, especially enough whole weekends for the entire series, is not logistically easy!

Given the level of riding/trails at the UK rounds (well the Inners round anyway + the Innerliethen MTB Racing series) having practice is a very sensible idea

Whereas with seeding, an unlucky moment or mechanical in the seeding run could leave Affy immediately behind you anyway, with no option to avoid it.

You would hope (and it's pushing it in MTB racing) that common sense would prevail and stick someone like that in a more appropriate starting position (the SDA have always been very good that way)

Future of UK Gravity Enduro?

hopefully: long and succesfull.

hopenotfully: even less accessible for useless mincers like me...

That sounds like a more complication version of the dibber setup. For dibbers you press your dibber against a box at the start, the again at the end of each stage. Repeat n times, hand over dibber get an instant print out of your results.

This sounds like BY FAR the best system to use. I've enjoyed the two Enduro1 races I've done but I've been frustrated by the poor timings and results - even if my times are right, what's the point if others' times aren't? And how hard is it to add up the teams' times? And then a special stage where the points were discarded for some reason... One has a degree of tolerance on the first race, but things should get better, not worse, as the series progresses.

The ParkRun results system works for having thousands of runners, across the country, with dozens of races on every Saturday, where the runners can turn up (or not) at any of those UK wide events. The events are free and all the results are usually up within hours.

Main downsides of the dibbers is that you can have multiple riders arrive at the end of a stage at the same time (or damn fools dib out at the end of the stage then get in the way). And you can get a wee difference in timing just due to how fast you can dib in or out.

Also occasionally people can't find them- I saw one poor sod somehow miss the dibber at a race, then get confused, and fall off his bike... (the Tweedlove enduro had massive yellow boards with start and finish on and the dibber in the middle- very good idea!)

But that's all minor compared to the alternatives...

Hmmmmm. Just saw on the Gravity Enduro (ie Si's series) is planning mandatory full face helmets, and also mandatory helmet wearing at all times including climbs. (so, 2-helmet time probably, like some euro enduro)

So, hopefully they're planning some very challenging courses because if not, they must be nuts.

Could the dibbers not be sensed automatically as they cross the finish line so you're not looking for the post and faffing about trying to slow down etc.? Seems perfectly doable to me.

Dib to start, cross line to finish.

I noticed that too Northwind. Seems a bit OTT. I think if I had to climb Dyfi with my full face I would have passed out shortly after leaving the 1st segment.

That's in effect what the UK Gravity system was supposed to do - it didn't work (well it did, but not reliably).

Yeah, takes you back to the basic problems of the existing noncontact systems, ie, they don't really work.

Hmmmmm. Just saw on the Gravity Enduro (ie Si's series) is planning mandatory full face helmets, and also mandatory helmet wearing at all times including climbs. (so, 2-helmet time probably, like some euro enduro)

That would massively put me off entering. Doing any significant climbing in a full face helmet is just horrible. 😕

In reality I'm not sure they would be able to police the helmet wearing at all times very well.

Depending on whether the UCI (and in turn BC) put enduros into the XC or DH category, full facers might become mandatory at all (sanctioned) enduro events

I'm re-imagining the Tweedlove enduro with mandatory full faces in the timed stages... Climb up Janet's Brae under the clock? My full face is pretty well ventilated, but still, no. And I'd like to say common sense will apply, but this is BC, so what are the odds?

I have very politely expressed dissatisfaction to BC, an organisation that is supposed to speak for cycling but instead speaks down to us. They've not bothered themselves with enduro til now and it's thrived without them, due to the hard work of organisers and the passion of the riders. Their duty is to respect that, not to arrive late and try to take over. If anyone feels similiarly, I'd hope they'll do the same.

having done some of 2011's races.

1)Keep seeding. - Any Cat with low turnout gets reversed.
2)Keep start times but lock them down.
3)Make the transitions challenging.
4)GET A PROPER TIMING SOLUTION
If it needs a full set of laser timings for each stage then thats what it needs
5)Sort out who you want - A mix of trail that rewards fitness, technical ability and stamina.

4) fixes everything

As for BC they seem to be a waste of time in some areas. Look at their facebook/twitter while there is a DH WC going on they are prattling on about commuting etc. If it's not olymipic or TDF who cares.

Mandatory lids is normal for any racing these days.
Mandatory full face is a bit annoying though as said would probably end up with a light xc lid in on the bag.

It seems that the BGES are going to announce their series Woo. And open entry's on Jan 1st. Not knowing the background I'm slightly confused as to why the two organisers already seem to be bitter rivals.

I might do one of each next year just to see how they compare. Some fans seem strangely loyal to UKGES and are badmouthing BGES9, I don't get it.

The 2 guys used to work together and now don't.

Mandatory full face lids would piss me off. There's little to no reason for them as Europe don't have that rule as far as I'm aware?

As for these people asking for an unbelievably tech track, that's not what its about. It's meant to be a mixture of fitness AND skill. Timings between stages this year were a joke, you could have walked between them easily and these need to be tightened up, however there needs to be a robust way of dealing with people who are late, and I suspect there will be a lot of them 🙄

Simple Neil

YOu have a start time and the clock starts then, you are late you can slot in at a 15s interval between other racers.

Did the first 2 last year and it was an utter joke, as you say bike optional for the transitions.

There definitely needs to be a way of making sure riders follow the full course, not taking short cuts on linking stages. I only did Rd 2, so can only comment on that but saw several top riders, including one that finished on the podium taking a big short cut, completely missing a big climb.

YOu have a start time and the clock starts then, you are late you can slot in at a 15s interval between other racers.

Exactly. That was the rule at the Avalanche Enduros that ran in the UK a few years ago, miss your stage start time and the clock starts ticking anyway.
The rules at the UK Gravity Enduros seemed to change from round to round....

There definitely needs to be a way of making sure riders follow the full course, not taking short cuts on linking stages.

At the first one people were encouraged to take whatever route they wanted by the organiser. Which included pushing up the trail people were about to race on.

Some nice order from the start would be good. Nobody seemed to try the idea of a test event to try any of this out before having a go at running a series.

Perhaps the avalanche guys should be invited to come and play.

Perhaps the avalanche guys should be invited to come and play.

Sensible idea surely?

Perhaps the avalanche guys should be invited to come and play.

They have held some races in the UK Kielder and I think Glentress.

YOu have a start time and the clock starts then, you are late you can slot in at a 15s interval between other racers.

So you then up late and get slotted in between two riders that are faster than you? With only a 15s gap behind you, potentially messing up their day too?

This is one of the biggest headaches Steve had, very difficult to safely slot people back in - especially when it's actually only 20s gaps!

Perhaps the avalanche guys should be invited to come and play.

I did the Kielder one a few years ago and I seem to remember there were a few issues. Sounds like possibly not as many as this series.

I think the seeding needs to stay. It works well and adds a nice extra dimension to the race.

It's good to be racing amongst people of roughly the same level and the UK GE races attract some seriously fast riders - who wouldn't want to be held up by the likes of me.

The transitions are about right IMO. Proved by the fact that nobody was racing a DH bike at the rounds I did. Only did Inners and Eastridge this year though.

As Mike said, it's really just the timing. And maybe getting the marshalls better drilled too. Riders had to organise themselves at one stage in Eastridge where one poor guy on his own had lost the plot.

For people missing their slot - wait them until end of their cat where there's a gap of a few mins - then send them down with a 10s penalty or whatever.

Seeding should stay, but if like me you pull a good seeding time out of the bag, only to get someone who's time was blatantly wrong and held me up on every stage, pretty annoying.

For people missing their slot - wait them until end of their cat where there's a gap of a few mins - then send them down with a 10s penalty or whatever.

That's what Steve was doing the last couple of rounds as there was a 3 min gap Btw Cats to enable this, however he didn't actually add any penalty time on, since he's such a nice guy 😆

Also I also agree and disagree with seeding, yes it's sorts out the fast DH riders into order, problem is it doesn't sort them into the correct order on the pedally bits! I caught the rider in front on the various pedally bits at Dyfi and then was held up on the subsequent DH runs in to the finish, since TBH, it was just too fast/dangerous to try and overtake.

i missed my slot on the last stage at dyfi, i was dropped in at the end of the cat with a couple of other guys we were told we get a penalty 20s?* which seemed fair to me!

*but not enirely sure i did??

100mph+ i let a guy overtake on the dh stuff when he shouted to get past me seems only fair

Also I also agree and disagree with seeding, yes it's sorts out the fast DH riders into order, problem is it doesn't sort them into the correct order on the pedally bits!

Sort of goes with the seeding being DH focused - make seeding representative of the whole course easy.

Would go with the idea of not making the event a mini DH

mikewsmith-did you actually race the first stop at Inners? I did and not only did I not encounter anyone pushing up any of the timed descents but I'm not sure exactly where this could have been done. Judging by your comments on this I'd have to assume that you are for some reason anti Steve Parr and almost certainly full of shit

mikewsmith-did you actually race the first stop at Inners? I did and not only did I not encounter anyone pushing up any of the timed descents but I'm not sure exactly where this could have been done. Judging by your comments on this I'd have to assume that you are for some reason anti Steve Parr and almost certainly full of s***

1st race as in last year at Ae Had people pushing up while I was racing Having been told were not checking what route you take. Not anti Steve as much as not impressed with the attitude then. I had heard better things about the series and worse like the short cuts ambiguity Over rules and poor timing systems still.

The format has something to offer hitting the middle ground between xc and dh and I wish it well. However patience will probably expire if the timing goes wrong again. I'm now in oz so can't have another go. I would probably wait until I see what timing was proposed before parting with cash.

Oh and no swearing in here.

Read the comments with some interest, including the 1 "about having my ego massaged" well James, i presume your Mr Coulson? Tally could not do 2012, so I had no partner to run series, thats a nonstarter, needs at least 2 to run the series, Adrian Bradley bravely stepped up to fill Tallys shoes.
The UK Gravity Enduro series is the National series 2013, no one elses, lets just clear that up right now!
We will not be using dibbers, it may be reliable, but its no where near accurate enough for what we are trying to achieve here, oh and we will have a new timing company on site for 2013 😉
Full face helmets, as in Europe, will be compulsary on stages, waiting to clarify with BC about XC lids on transitions, but expect this will be the case.
This is for your safety, not to increase helmet sales etc... i've been watching you guys race all year and seen you getting faster and faster, when you hit 40mph + on stages, its time to have full face lids.
Title sponsor/sponsors will be announced very shortly as will the PR guy's.
There are numerous new rules being imposed on us by BC affiliating Enduro as a discipline, we will keep you updated on these.
Hope this helps, but if you need further info please get in touch via website of facebook page
Steve Parr

Shame about the helmet rule. Surely it should be rider choice?
I only did the CyB round, but I felt quite happy in a XC lid.

Think I'll say the same thing as I told Si- if you're going to make us wear full face helmets, you'd better give us tracks that make me feel like I should be wearing a full face helmet 😉

Really would appreciate if you would push BC over the transition stage helmet rule, full face is at least justifiable but mandatory helmets on the transitions is another thing entirely. If the descents are risky enough that we should be wearing fullfacers then they're risky enough that attaching extra crap to our spines isn't that sharp. At very best it's hassle without benefit.

Oh God BC (bumbling cockmeisters) are involved. That's that buggered then :o(
Also means having a BC license (£50 for silver) or paying an extra £10 for a day one.On top of whatever levy they impose which will have to be passed on the competitor. It's not exactly cheap to begin with.