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So, I'm in the market, possibly, for a new FS bike.
As may be implied by my username, I don't have a lot of FS experience. Have had my Swarf Contour for a little under 2 years, and dabbled with a Cannondale Prophet a few years ago, but other than that, I've always ridden/owned HTs.
I realise I know very little about the different types of FS design; I've heard terms being bandied about ... single pivot, 4-bar, VPP, Maestro, DW-link etc, but have very little idea about how each works, what are the pros and cons of each, and the different variations on each system. You see designs where the shock is mounted vertically, or on the underside of the top tube, or on top of the downtube ... some with lots of linkages and pivots, others that seem more straightforward.
So, firstly, is there a good Web page, article or whatever that can give an up to date overview? (Found a wiki link, but seems quite old-fashioned). Diagrams and or videos showing how the suspension moves would help.
Secondly, is there a 'best'/'worst' system? Or is it all swings & roundabouts that I'm in danger of overthinking about, and that pretty much all modern bikes have pretty sorted suspension?
Thirdly, is there a 'design' for a 150/160mm bike that would work 'best' for a medium guy, 75kg weight, for all-day pedalability but capable of some (not very fast, ie rather mincy) steep/tech?
Ta!
You might need to change your username!
You might need to change your username!
That has been pointed out before in other threads. But, I can't! STW won't let me.
Lots of swings and round abouts.
dont believe the hype about needing less bearings with things like single pivot / flex stays.
dont believe the hype about overly complex linkages.
The only thing i would consider is, coming from a HT are you going to be wanting to lock it out a lot. if so piuck one where you can acess the shock easily (some are tucked away). Otherwise go for it and enjoy.
go and demo some, their aren't that many bad bikes these days.
ps. i'd think your "not very fast, ie rather mincy) steep/tech" riding will change massively.
safer, faster and comfier..
Most of them were invented purely so that they could be a patentable USP IMV.
They do feel different, due to the different ratios of lever sizes, but it’s not that any one is better than the others.
It’s interesting that now that the Horst Link is off patent, many companies seem to be going that route.
Single pivot means that the suspension isn’t as isolated from braking or acceleration forces, and so may feel more lively and less plush.
Linkages mean that the progression curve can be tuned for different types of shock if needed.
IMV you get used to what you ride. Getting the correct sized bike is much more important.
As a bit of a luddite with full suspension, I think Vpp, Maestro and Dw-link are slightly the same thing...I can't explain why but over the years I've picked up that they seem to the the same suspension solution just slightly different ways of doing it...
However as a luddite, I suspect there are differences but I don't know what they are.
Best solution is to try as many as you can and see which one works best for you, then go from there.
Try 'Trail POV' on YouTube. He compares and explains quite a few of the different designs, their pros and cons.
I think Vpp, Maestro and Dw-link are slightly the same thing
They’re all rigid rear triangles that are floating and attached by short links. The difference is in which way the links rotate in compression. Which each manufacturer will tell you their way is the best and anyone else is a heretic.
I'd go off reviews (edit: of how it rides, not the theory of it, plus any other upsides/downsides), plus also my own consideration if what other benefits/problems a particular frame design brings with it.
E.g. does it constrain or make room for bottles or bags? Stash garage?
I wouldn't be set on one particular design over another, just what the balance of trade-offs is based on the information available
The only one I’d straight out avoid if I was riding in muddy conditions is the Switch Infinity. It’s meant to be a great platform, but I’ve just heard about far too many durability issues in wet riding.
Which companies are the best for demo days? Cotic, Bird and Geometron are easy to test ride. Most decent shops have demo bikes available.
Just pick something you like the look of and have a day out on it. All the words and numbers won't mean anything until you feel something that you either like or dislike.
DickBarton
Maestro and Dw-link are slightly the same thing…
Dave Weagle certainly thinks so, and took Giant to court over it
Don't listen to the bs that "o it's horst link so it'll ride like y and it's vpp so it'll ride like x". The ride feel those kind of people experience is down to how that particular brand has decided the best balance of compromises for their chosen platform for the specific application.
Don't go reading anything into generalisations on this subject.
I don't think there's a 'best' design.
If you've come from hardtail, and so expect zero or easy maintenance. perhaps something like a Santa Cruz with VPP?
The bearings are pressed into the linkage itself - not the frame - so replacing is easier than other frames. You also get free bearings.
The only consistent generalisations are that common-rotating Horst link designs have less anti-rise than most and true single pivots have close to zero progression.
The rest (anti-squat, anti-rise details, progression, axle path etc) comes down to the specific pivot locations.
I'm a very fussy bugger. I will tweak the angle of my bars by a few degrees during a ride or trial fore/aft saddle adjustments by a few mm. I buy different styles of handlebar and even grip shape is part of my tuning programme.
However, I don't think suspension design makes much difference. They do feel a bit different, but not in a meaningful way. Geometry and weight distribution are FAR more important IMO than anything, even amount of travel. Then suspension setup i.e. damping and sag.
I think there’s something to be said that single pivots are less isolated from braking forces than the other designs?
No, not really. More isolated if anything because there are no pivots between the axle and brake caliper. Some designs might actuall use braking force to counteact the extension of the suspension when your weight moves forward under braking.
My first long travel bike is a Patriot 7+, 180mm of single pivot travel. It boings around a lot with body weight shifts so it feels terrible at first, but you learn to ride it. You move your body weight around a lot, anticipate its movement, and it's an absolute blast. My second long(ish) travel bike is a modern Nukeproof Reactor. It doesn't require the same degree of movement and doesn't really allow it, and tbh it's less fun at times. I rather enjoyed working the travel on the Patriot, it was almost like skiing, you'd move your body along with the trail.
My experience is similar to molgrips above I'd say. My single pivot orange rode much better if you worked it. Was a bit wooden if you didn't. I prefer a decent four bar, it just seems to behave nicely all the time. I think it suits my very unaggressive riding style.
There are very few bad bikes these days.
- Go for the one that looks the nicest with the best colour and the components closest to what you want at a price you can afford.
- Remember that all reviews are written by people who have to string words for a living and can't get away with "They're all as good as each other really, but a horizontal shock on a purple frame with Fox forks looked the best to me."
- Do not read any reviews with kinematic graphs. Their comments are irrelevant to 99% of riders.
- Spend the minimal amount of time faffing with the various damping options, go for the standard settings and tweak out slightly based on your weight/size compared to average
- There will be riding characteristics that are different to your old bike but you'll learn to love them so ignore them when you first ride it
- Remember, riding bikes is fun. Any bike is fun. But you've just spent money on the nicest looking, greatest coloured, finest equipped bike you can warrant spending money on so go and love it despite what the internet might say
It's always a trade off between several characteristics. In theory, single pivot will feel weird to ride (especially when pedalling) as it pulls on the chain when going up and down.
The other main design is 'active' ie the rear axle is not directly connected to the chainstays. This includes 4-bar linkage . So you shouldn't get any feedback through the chain. Downside is it will squat under pedalling.
The VPP designs (like DW link) aim to give active suspension with no squatting
Don’t listen to the bs that “o it’s horst link so it’ll ride like y and it’s vpp so it’ll ride like x”. The ride feel those kind of people experience is down to how that particular brand has decided the best balance of compromises for their chosen platform for the specific application.
To an extent this is true.
But at the same time generalizations do often bear out.
Horst link bikes brake better, it's just one of their inherent benefits.
Single pivots feel like you can preload it and pump it more because they tend to be very active. They're very predictable. I like riding them for fun, but not sure I'd want to live with it if it was my only bike and had to do both fun and 50mile rides.
Horst links tend to mask what the suspension is doing. it just gets on with it, you can feel plenty of feedback, but it's using all the travel. Feels very efficient. It's what I currently have (a Vitus) and what I had previously (a Specialized)
DW and Maestro feel like someone's taken the best bits of a Horst and a Single Pivot and made something that (to me) feels like a full suspension bike should, it gets on with the job but you can feel it a bit more when you load it up. It's efficient, but a bit more fun than a horst.
VPP is weird and I hate it. Feels like a single pivot without the predictability. Others like them though so that just proves that it's a personal preference.
Shock tunes make a massive difference. Up to a point spending ££ on a custom tune of an entry level shock is better than spending £££ on an off the shelf expensive one. Shock models have their own character too.
IME, having ridden hardtails, then rigid bikes, then back to a hardtail when my wrists started to give up. As long as it deals with the big hits, keeps things under control and reacts to both me and the ground in a predictable manner and it's not beating me up then I'm satisfied. I like having lots of dials to adjust, but equally I ride cheap products too and just learn to ride around whatever limitation they have.
In theory, single pivot will feel weird to ride (especially when pedalling) as it pulls on the chain when going up and down
Yeah this was the case on my Orange. When hitting a bump on a technical climb you felt it through the pedals, but it really was of no consequence. I mean you feel the same bump through your arms and arse so no big deal.
what difference does it make?
To the journalist who has to find something to say to fill the review, professional riders/racers who have the ability to work stuff to it's limits, or the punter who has to justify a particular purchase? A lot.
To the majority of recreational riders? Bugger all (assuming it's a reasonable but from a reasonable brand).
professional riders/racers who have the ability to work stuff to it’s limits
They don't ride what's best, they ride what they are given 🙂
Which proves my point even more.
“It’s always a trade off between several characteristics. In theory, single pivot will feel weird to ride (especially when pedalling) as it pulls on the chain when going up and down.
The other main design is ‘active’ ie the rear axle is not directly connected to the chainstays. This includes 4-bar linkage . So you shouldn’t get any feedback through the chain. Downside is it will squat under pedalling.
The VPP designs (like DW link) aim to give active suspension with no squatting”
This is all the kind of misinformation you get from bike reviews and marketing blurb.
It isn’t the suspension design that matters most, it’s where the pivots are placed and their interaction with all the force vectors from the chain tension, rear contact patch and, brake caliper and rider’s mass.
Loads of 4 bar bikes pedal really well. Loads of single pivots feel good because chain forces balance out rider mass forces. DW link etc still have pedal kickback and brake squat.
This Spanish blog is good:
https://linkagedesign.blogspot.com/
Just how bogged down do you want to get in the science behind suspension?
Like most aspects of bike design, it's often a compromise between opposing desires. For example, higher anti squat values will make a bike feel more like a hardtail when sprinting but less active. Lower anti squat numbers will feel active all the time but you don't want to get out of the saddle and sprint.
Some bikes will feel really absorbent and as if they have more travel than they do. Conversely a bike with the same travel can feel more poppy and playful but not as much of a trail tamer/bulldozer.
Are you happy to stick with an air shock, or do you want something progressive enough to take a coil shock of you so desire?
There is no "best" design as there's no ideal set of aims.
It can sometimes help to look for a bike that was designed in an area similar to where you ride or how you ride.
If you want to get into the nitty gritty of anti squat, anti rise, chain growth, axle path and progressively, then povtrail on YouTube is not a bad start point.
A good one compares a Kona process to an evil following, both linkage driven single pivots but with very different results.
Or just buy a pretty bike that speaks to you and makes you want to ride it.
It's not wrong. Single pivot and 4 bar are 2 different designs. And I said 'in theory'. i also said it's a trade-off so like you pointed out, how the bike rides isn't just down to the type of suspension. However, single-pivot will in theory pull on the chain.
4 bar won't 'cos the axle is connected to the vertical, rather than horizontal. That's a fact, not marketing!
However, single-pivot will in theory pull on the chain.
Idler enters the chat
U Wot M8?
4 bar won’t ‘cos the axle is connected to the vertical, rather than horizontal. That’s a fact, not marketing!
No, but what is marketing is how much it matters.
“4 bar won’t ‘cos the axle is connected to the vertical, rather than horizontal. That’s a fact, not marketing!”
Unfortunately this fact is wrong. The theory behind this is now well established and you can buy software to model suspension designs accurately:
Almost all full-sus MTBs without idlers use chain growth to reduce suspension bob. And that means they also suffer from pedal kickback.
dont believe the hype about needing less bearings with things like single pivot / flex stays.
Surely those are just facts? Designs that have fewer bearings.
I had my DH bike nicked in the Alps and had a week of hire bikes
Horst link- my canyon torque
Single pivot linkage- morewood
Dw- pivot
Vpp- Santa Cruz v10
POLYGON COLLOSUS DH8- no idea what the suspension type was.
The biggest difference was the fit of the bike. I'm 6"4, the Santa Cruz was XXL. The polygon was medium and the rest were large. The size was the biggest thing.
The morewood had too soft a spring
The pivot fork hadn't been serviced recently
The polygon was massively too short in the reach, but I couldn't hire anything else that day.
None of my riding or experience revolved around the suspension type.
So for me, on rides that were on terrain out of my comfort zone the suspension type had no impact on the amount of fun I had.
I've had
Yeti straight 8
Cannondale scalpel- softtail type.
Giant reign- vpp type
Orange segment- single pivot
Geometron- horst link.
Longer term the suspension type has made very little difference to the amount of fun I've had.
Secondly, is there a ‘best’/’worst’ system? Or is it all swings & roundabouts that I’m in danger of overthinking about, and that pretty much all modern bikes have pretty sorted suspension?
For me, no it's all about the ride, not the suspension. If it breaks that's a problem.
Thirdly, is there a ‘design’ for a 150/160mm bike that would work ‘best’ for a medium guy, 75kg weight, for all-day pedalability but capable of some (not very fast, ie rather mincy) steep/tech?
For me at 94kg a mix of all day pedaling, mucking about in the woods and the off uplift-no.
Are demo days still a thing?
You might be able to try a bunch of bikes in a day.
Bike hire- not cheap, but cheaper than hating your ££££ bike and selling it on after a short time.
I think there’s something to be said that single pivots are less isolated from braking forces than the other designs?
From riding single pivots back to back with a concentric axle pivot design (Trek/Split Pivot type) I'd say that's true, thought it mainly depends how the non single pivot's isolated seatstay rotates during compression. Braking still has an effect on the suspension, it can be just less obvious than it can be on a trad single pivot. And whether it's really an issue is another matter, I like single pivot bikes for XC / trail, can be very direct and predictable feeling.
I'd agree with others saying most sus designs are about patent use or avoidance more than engineering, some are about both. I'm tempted to say as long as the actual or effective pivot is in a suitable place, the spring/wheel rate and damping make the biggest difference to the ride feel. The rest (though obv linked to wheel rate) might be a bit like worrying about the detail of a rear mech's parallelogram - we don't as long as it moves the right way. Maybe axle path becomes more of an influence on longer travel bikes.
Just go and demo a Cotic, they work brilliantly and from a maintenance perspective, my 5 y/o and +1 million feet of Scottish climbing/descending Flaremax only needed it's bearings etc replacing when 4 years old.
Feels a 'bottomless' rear (I've the Cane Creek).
I've also a Spesh eBike with their FSR, and while it feels different, it still works well.
to add some extra complexity into the mix, the shock tune can make a big difference
you can use your shock to hange how the bike feels
if youve got an air shock (hiring) a shockwiz can really help, especially if you have a lot of adjusters to twiddle, im heavy and my bike rides much better with lots of LSC
Don’t go reading anything into generalisations on this subject.
While this is true as a generalisation, you might decide to consider (or rule out) certain suspension layouts because they tend to favour certain characteristics.
I choose a single pivot for my trail bike because I like the feedback and immediacy - and I know recent Orange ones pedal very well.
I chose a four-bar for my big bike because I know they tend to keep the suspension working under braking and can be tweaked to pedal fairly well too.
I've had a couple of linkage single pivots and they tend to be fun to ride, very predictable but can stiffen a bit under braking. Pedal efficiency varies wildly.
But you absolutely have to test ride, read reviews, talk to owners etc.
Pick the one you like the look of / can afford / liked on a ride and make sure you can get a water bottle in there somewhere, job done.
CRC/wiggle are that desperate to unload stock they are now doing a 30 day trial on vitus. not happy send it them back :0).
santa cruz doing a demo day on 5010 in edale/peaks sat 14th october.
a great allround full suspension. mullet these days i think
Bike fit, head angle, BB height, and the various components of wheelbase (front centre, chain stay etc) probably make more of a difference than suspension type.
Of course the suspension type may affect how these basic geometry components can be varied (eg axle path and chain stay length), but fundamentally you can design a bad bike around any suspension type or a good one.
And what good or bad means may vary with your preferred terrain and riding style.
Biggest difference I’ve found is in how easy they are to set up. DW and Horst link had a pretty big sweet spot, where as VPP had a very small range where it felt good. Once set, all performed well, with only subtle differences. I’ve never had a single pivot design though. Going from one bike to the next, it was the geometry updates that made a way bigger difference to how the bike felt rather than suspension type.
Looking back I’ve had more Horst link bikes than anything else, but that could just be because it’s so widely used rather than an actual preference.
As has been said above, the suspension design doesn't much matter - I'd first focus on what you want from the bike, the brand, their philosophy and how they work and then look into the models they offer.
I went for a Starling because it was a small brand that actually manufacture their own frames in house (quite literally at the time) in the UK. It is as sustainable as a mountainlike can be, I have a relationship (in that we actually know each other not anything else :o) with the guy that built my bike and it can be fixed because it's a fillet braised steel frame. It's a bike for life (or until standards render it obsolete). it's now 7 years old and I don't need anything else, though a newer mullet jobber would be nice ;o)
I'd currently be very interested in looking at an Atherton, even if it doesn't necessarily fit the repairable brief, I like the tech, the brand and the shape of them. the suspension maybe awesome but it's a fairly secondary consideration. though it is nice they all look a lot like an Iron horse Sunday ;o)
Good luck
Here is even more far fetched proposal - if you have selection of nice well-stocked LBS you could go there and ask what other riders in the area are riding and what they would be suggesting?
I am this situation myself but unfortunately riding locally is quite different from what I would prefer to ride.
However, I don’t think suspension design makes much difference.
Over the last few decades, a lot of different ideas were tried and the only ones that survived were single pivot and variations on 4-bar. Well designed single pivots work fine, so do well designed 4-bars. Badly designed suspension bikes will not work well, but I think everyone has learned enough that everything on the market now works ok.
In my personal experience, single pivot bikes tend to skip the back tyre a lot more under braking. I've ridden a Giant AC (110-150 mm adjustable travel, single pivot), Spesh FSR (80 mm 4-bar), Giant NRS (80 mm 4-bar), Giant Anthem (80 mm 4-bar), and BMC Speedfox (120 mm ). The NRS is an outlier, it was designed as an XC race bike so the suspension is meant to be run topped out so that feels like a hardtail to pedal. The other 4-bar bikes are noticeably more settled under brakes than the AC, but that's really a minor thing, the extra travel of the AC made it much better at descending than the FSR and Anthem. The BMC is a much better trailbike than any of them, it pedals as well as the Anthem and FSR but has much more travel for rougher descents. I'm sure an Anthem or FSR with 120 mm travel would be pretty much the same though.
As previous people have noted, it’s really difficult to give anything other than very broad ideas of how various suspension designs will behave. I’m a serial bike swapper and have tried pretty much the whole family of suspension designs in search of the elusive holy grail bike.
IME there can be a significant overlap between various suspension designs. I guess it comes down to what the brands engineers have tailored the suspension kinematic and shock tunes to do..i.e. efficient pedalling for XC/general trail type riding, or full grip and compliance for Enduro/DH trails.
Again, IME, although lots of brands claim their system gives the best of both worlds, there always a trade off between a stable and efficient pedalling platform and suppleness and grip for rougher trails. What I’ve found peculiar is that uphill pedalling performance doesn’t necessarily require less suspension travel. I’ve had a couple of 160mm travel enduro bikes that have climbed better than bikes I’ve owned with travel in the 120-140mm range (all in off the shelf shock tunes).
IMO, the only main downsides to single pivot bikes is that the suspension can stiffen up and lack grip a bit whilst braking on descents, and very occasionally you can get something called pedal kickback on tech climbs (but then IME some more complex systems like VPP can also be prone to this). If you’re coming from a hard tail background, a single pivot bike like an Orange can be amongst the easiest of FS bikes to clean and maintain, and the climb switches on their shocks are usually very easy to reach if you do need to use it.
Personally, most of my FS bikes are now Horst link/4 bar type, as I find they give the best blend of suppleness and grip, without too much trade off for pedalling uphill. I’ve have had some Horst link bikes that have been energy sapping climbers, but had more that have been good climbers (Specialized seem to have really got the suspension performance dialled in their current range).
For reference, I’m a 60+ y.o. slightly arthritic (maybe due to over 40 years riding bicycles off road?!) fella who now takes it quite steady on descents, and tend to prefer suspension with lots of comfort and grip to super ‘efficient’ mile muncher type set ups.
My advice would be to keep an open mind and try bikes with suspension designs from at least three of the main suspension families - maybe, single pivot, Horst/4 bar, and VPP type. It’d be interesting to hear how you get on, coming from a HT background.
HTH
The Swarf Contour is a superlative bike IMO - what's the reason to change it up?
When people talk about feeling the brake effect more on a single pivot than a horst link, do they mean a pure single pivot or are they including linkage activated single pivots?
Looking at the anti rise analysis on certain bikes, this shouldn't be the case.
Is it real, or a self fulfilling prophecy?
Just wondering as I'm considering a move from DW to linkage single pivot with flex stay but loved the suppleness of my old Turner 6 pack HL frame.
Hey Onzadog, I’ve notice it on both, but to a lesser extent on the last linkage activated bikes I’ve had (Cotic drop links). Nicest DW suspension I’ve ridden recently was on a Pivot Shuttle LT loaner - it was outstanding, but did wonder whether it’s grip and suppleness was exaggerated by the weight of the bike (circa 23kg).
Reading endless internet warrior arguments about pivot placements and the relative merits of this linkage Vs that is a bit pointless (IMO) it's all pretty much qualitative, how doe the bike as a whole 'feel' to ride and is the suspension damping out the bumps and vibrations you want it to while still providing feedback and feel for the terrain.
I'd watch this video through a few times (there are others like it out there too) simply because it shows a variety of suspension and HT bikes put through the same simple 'test':
As I said watch it a few times and you'll probably note a few different things each time like how fast some bikes compress vs others, how much of the impact is being passed onto the rider (feet and ankles), how the wheel moves through it's travel, how much work the tyres do in soaking up the load, etc, etc, if a picture paints a thousand words, a HSV is a mini thesis...
Then go ride a few if you can and see what you notice (or don't).
Or just go and buy whatever you can afford/like the look of and stop worrying about all of the details...
When people talk about feeling the brake effect more on a single pivot than a horst link, do they mean a pure single pivot or are they including linkage activated single pivots?
For the rotation of the wheel Vs the brake link (the swingarm itself for a SP bike) under compression, that aspect of 'braking effect', it it doesn't change between a linkage-driven SP and a swingarm-only SP assuming the main pivot is in the same place. But the way the bike sits in its travel under braking might be different if it's linkage-driven, ie the wheel/spring rate can be different and that could change how noticeable the wheel to swingarm/brake rotation feel is. Not something I've been able to tell or ride enough bikes to get into. Linkage SP bikes can feel really good in terms of spring rate or progression feel though.
When people talk about feeling the brake effect more on a single pivot than a horst link, do they mean a pure single pivot or are they including linkage activated single pivots?
Linkage activated designs give more scope for varying the spring rate throughout the travel but the chain growth will still be determined by the pivot location and chainring size. My old Giant AC was linkage activated but it really skipped the back wheel around a lot compared to all the 4-bar bikes I've ridden. To be fair, a modern shock might improve that noticeably.
This (and similar videos) may actually be more use actually:
It lets you see different bikes tackling some real world features and you can gauge to some extent how they respond to brake dragging through a steep off-camber turn, leaning into a blown out berm or dropping into a chute with roots and rocks I'd just search YouTube for "EWS Slow Mo" and you get lots of footage to pour over.
The Swarf Contour is a superlative bike IMO – what’s the reason to change it up?
Yeah, its great. And I might not end up getting rid. But, I've a little bit of money burning a hole in my pocket, so exploring getting something with a bit more travel. The new Bird Aeris AM appeals (I'm going to demo one on Monday), possibly the Transition Sentinel, either as a 'capable-but-all-day-rideable' sole FS bike, or as a second FS (and I'll shorten/lighten the Contour)
I think I've owned all the major suspension types bar Maestro (if that is actually distinct enough).
Single pivots are pretty distinct in how they feel, but the rest are similar enough that I'd say there is as much variation in suspension feel between the same type of design as there is between similar types of bike that uses a different suspension design.
Geometry and whether a bike suits what you intend to use it for are far more important than the intricacies of supsension design. A Horst link might claim to be "the best" suspension design, but if you bought a 100mm travel XC and then smashed it down bike parks every week how good its suspension design was wouldn't really matter.
But the rear axle path is very similar between SP and HL. It's a well established fact that the HL pivot doesn't move much at all, hence why flex systems like the Spur have become popular. The chain growth numbers are within a couple of mm of each other so when we're talking mid to high 20s of chain growth, that's really not a noticeable difference.
Anti rise is about controlling the pitching forward of the bike under braking which unweights the rear and causes brake skipping. Given that the job of the brake is to limit rear wheel rotation, I don't see the arc of the swingarm making much difference unless we consider the Lawill rear end on the old Fisher RS-1.
As far as I understand it, and that's not that much from not a lot of work a long time ago, anti-rise is a different dynamic to the brake skipping or 'stiffening' that a SP bike can exhibit more than a HL or short-link bike. The brake skipping of a SP is about how the brake pad against the rotor has an effect on the wheel rotating relative to the swingarm, a force that limits compression if the wheel needs to rotate vs the swingarm to compress freely. But as you say, the brake is meant to slow the wheel and separating this out from the other things going on at the time esp at speed makes it all a bit fuzzy.
A HL bike can have very little movement at the HL pivot but it can have closer to as much rotation as at the main pivot if the rocker is very long - the upper and lower links (CS and rocker) dictate the effective pivot point of the brake link (seatstay).
Where split / concentric pivot bikes are interesting is they have a fixed wheel pivot but a virtual braking pivot so the 2 are independent and can be be very similar or separated to an extent via the upper rocker position and movement (again as far as I understand it, how useful that is in ride terms I'm not sure).
do they mean a pure single pivot or are they including linkage activated single pivots?
Pure single pivots it's a consistent thing, I ride two at the moment (Orange and Starling).
Linkage SPs, depends on the frame. Typically still noticeable, but to a lesser extent.
Pretty sure I'm not experiencing a placebo effect 😀
There’s some sense on here and some nonsense.
Go find some different designs that fit you each with sagged geometry appropriate to the riding you want to do a then test ride them.
‘Cos I don’t know what you ride or how you like a bike to feel.
hardtailonlyFull Member
The Swarf Contour is a superlative bike IMO – what’s the reason to change it up?
Yeah, its great. And I might not end up getting rid. But, I’ve a little bit of money burning a hole in my pocket, so exploring getting something with a bit more travel. The new Bird Aeris AM appeals (I’m going to demo one on Monday), possibly the Transition Sentinel, either as a ‘capable-but-all-day-rideable’ sole FS bike, or as a second FS (and I’ll shorten/lighten the Contour)
That Bird looks decent - 160mm travel but meant to be quite light and poppy for the travel. I’m slightly tempted but I have a Transition Sentinel alloy with a coil shock and equally love it at the moment. I reckon it’s a few lbs heavier on the frame than the carbon Bird from what I’ve read - but it’s build a bit sturdier and it’s pretty slack.
It’s my main full suss bike - it does everything from big ish laps to uplift days at Dyfi. It’s definitely on the extreme end of trail / light enduro I’d say.
I’ve had 2 Birds before the sentinel - an aether 7 and an Aeris 145LT. Both were decent but the sentinel moves the game on (but it’s a 29er and both of those were 650b). I don’t know if I want to give up the way it smashes through stuff - I think the weight comes into the sturdy feel.
So maybe try and test ride both and see which you prefer. The Ibis Ripmo af probably falls between both those bikes - similar travel but DW link suspension. Might be worth a look at that too.
But the rear axle path is very similar between SP and HL. It’s a well established fact that the HL pivot doesn’t move much at all, hence why flex systems like the Spur have become popular. The chain growth numbers are within a couple of mm of each other so when we’re talking mid to high 20s of chain growth, that’s really not a noticeable difference.
Not sure how true that is, some designs put quite a considerable kink in the chainstay at one end or the other of the travel.
The radius that the rear wheel is moving through can be determined by drawing a line through the linkages, .i.e. the two short maestro links, or the chain stay and rocker of a horst/FSR deign. So in most cases what's happening is the pivot moves down and backwards. So for the most part the rear wheel can be traveling closer to vertically initially than a single pivot (because the center is somewhere near the front wheel) which gives more chain growth. Then towards the end then the upper link is almost vertical the center is around the main pivot which gives zero chain growth so you don't feel the big hits through the chain.
One thing that shows most people don’t know / can’t feel the differences is that they talk about four bars / Horst links like they’re all much of a muchness.
The reality is that 4 bar designs with a counter-rotating upper link that hangs from the top tube behave far more like short-link 4 bars (DW, VPP, etc) or even linkage driven single pivots, than they behave like all other 4 bar designs. This is because the hanging lower link gives a projected pivot point close to the BB rather than out towards the front axle, and that massively changes the brake anti-rise.
I like DW the best of those I've tried. That is all.
Although a suspension design can have a huge effect on how it rides and performs, but so does the shock that is installed and how it is setup.
My pal had a shot of my Scalpel and hated how firm it rode. But that's because I had it set up for fast xc not for comfort.
I've also ridden specialized suspension bikes in years gone by and hated how 'soggy' they felt, rode a newer one and loved how supple it was. Just shows how similar suspension designs can ride totally different.
It's so easy to make a bike ride like crap if you mess about with the suspension settings.
When you first get a full sus, I'd recommend spending a good bit of time with suspension setup. Start with the recommended settings found on the manufacturers website/guidem. Then if you're not happy with it then incrementally adjusting one thing at a time (with a short test ride in between) to the sweet spot you like. Maybe even take a shock pump on your rides. Also make a note of the settings including your weight, this will have an impact on your settings.
If you look at the linkage analysis from bikes over the last 10-15 years you’ll see that they used to vary tons - all sorts of weird leverage curves (regressive stupidity!), huge variations in anti-squat, etc. Nowadays everything is far more similar - so many bikes are in the 90-130% anti-squat at sag, and leverage rates are generally linear or progressive, averaging around 2.5:1 and 0-30% progression.
If you look at a Banshee from 10 years ago, like the Spitfire v2, they’d nailed it back then. Everyone else has ended up in much the same place. It’s quite like how so many bikes have converged on Geometron geometry after a decade of sliding towards it.
The only bigger variations now are brake-squat aka anti-rise, and axle path (which is quite hard to detach from anti-rise because of how the forces and torques work) due to the high pivot movement.
A while back I figured out that possibly the best configuration for racing would be a Split Pivot aka ABP high pivot design, to get a high pivot axle path, and high anti squat with minimal kickback, a progressive leverage curve and avoid the very high anti-rise of a high single pivot. Some months later Trek or Hope or someone else launched a bike with that suspension.
No real experience as I'm a hardtail owner. But I'd say just demo some bikes.
I demod a cotic Jeht and a Bird Aeries. I really wanted to like the cotic as they're a 20 minute ride away from me and put loads into the local riding community. But it just didn't gel with me, or maybe me with it. I was even riding on local trails. The bird, even though it was more bike than I'd need, was great, and I was riding it on trails I didn't know that well (Wolftrax).
Currently looking at getting an Aether 9 when funds allow.