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Have we done this yet?
http://www.goinggoingbike.com/blog/stop-and-proof-campaign-brings-results/
Feeling somewhat torn about this. It's great to see any initiative aimed at tackling bike crime, but personally I'd be hard-pressed to prove that any of my bikes were mine (as they are pretty much all custom builds, second hand, etc).
I know people who've been given multiple "producers" for no clear reason other than that they were driving ratty old cars, and I have to wonder whether more widespread use of this could result in a similar massive waste of everyone's time.
If some copper wants to sit through my Forum activity and ebay account he's welcome too.
But realistically if it just "people who arouse suspicion" then suppose its not that bad. But in practise that rarely works.
a purchase from the classifieds on here or ebay is no guarrantee a bike is not stolen.
But realistically if it just "people who arouse suspicion" then suppose its not that bad. But in practise that rarely works.
Spend you're days riding round Fulwood on a IBIS Mojo wearing your burbery cap backwards, scouse tuxedo, and a joint behind your ear?
If not I suspect you wont be stoped.
Innocent until proven guilty?
Sure bike theft is a problem, but if the Police can't prove that my bike isn't mine, they shouldn't be anywhere near it.
It is mine btw.
It's an interesting idea but, surely, it can't be legal???
To take something away from someone, they must need to prove it doesn't belong to them??
Rachel
oh and I love the bit about targeting men on women's bikes because they are more likely to be stolen! I ride a man's bike - is that stolen, too???
Rachel
The rider is then asked to prove, either with a receipt or some other proof, that the bicycle actually belongs to them. A failure to convince the police that the bike is not their own will see the bike being confiscated by the police.
Yes I always carry this with me at all times when on a bike.
That second sentence is so baddly worded ....if I fail to convince them it is NOT my own will that not make them convinced it it is mine?
Rachel can I have permission to make a hugely inappropriate but well meaning joke about what has been stolen 😉
I would join the police force if they would put me full-time on this.
.
In fact I'd be willing to offer my bike thief identification services for a small fee (one of those police issue SC Chameleons) - I can spot a stolen bike at 50 paces.
.
oh, and try to see through the poor editorial, I'm sure* the police should be give some credit for their discretion
*not that sure
A more detailed definition of what consititutes "proof" would probably help here, but it sounds like some discretion and common sense would be used.
I presume they have checked that it is legal to do this, in which case I presume they could also confiscate most of my clothes and my groceries (as I don't keep my till receipts)?
oh and I love the bit about targeting men on women's bikes because they are more [b][i]likely[/b][/i] to be stolen! I ride a man's bike - is that stolen, too???
Statistics! And yes, I'd hazard a guess that anyone in general riding an (for want of a better word) unsuitable bike is more likely to have nicked it than to have been to a shop and had advice, it correctly fitted, etc. doesnt mean that evry woman on a mans bike nicked it, but it's probably a greater proportion than in the larger population.
50% of the worlds population are women, does that make me a woman?
A higher percentage of men riding womens bikes than men riding mens bikes are riding stolen bikes, should we leave the men riding womens bikes allone as they're also a minority and their right to ride a womens bike should be respected despite the fact it's more likely to have been nicked?
oh and I love the bit about targeting men on women's bikes because they are more likely to be stolen! I ride a man's bike - is that stolen, too???
I've just dialled 999, expect a visit from the cozzers shortly and we'll find out.
And this is what got my son's bike back. I just happened to drive past as the police were 'interviewing' a couple of kids who had aroused suspicion and there was the bike stolen from my son a couple of days before.
I think the 'proof' required from them was something like 'Is this bike yours?', 'Where did you get it?', 'How long have you had it' then they started to wriggle.. 'So, you found it dumped behind West View did you?' (No they didn't.)
I understand the reservations about this approach but it's really exactly what goes on here when some reports a bike stolen. It's paying attention to someone riding a bike that doesn't fit with them.
whilst i can see the logic i would be massively pissed off if they took my bike halfway to work.
While I'm not that keen on all pervasive police powers this does actually seems like a good idea.
I think most police know the difference between a genuine cyclist without a receipt and a scally on a ripped off bike
As hesitant as I am to assume common sense from the police, surely this has to be a good thing? The thing about the man on a woman's bike sounds to me like a very lame made up answer because they had to give some explanation of who they'd think was suspicious without giving their real reason. Most of us on here would have a pretty good idea of what's a stolen bike, and I'm sure the officers involved in this do too.
i would be massively pissed off if they took my bike halfway to work.
Which is fine, because they won't be doing that.
Rachel can I have permission to make a hugely inappropriate but well meaning joke about what has been stolen
What [i]has [/i]been stolen?
When they talked about doing this is edinburgh one of the criteria for suspecting someone was that they had no helmet. I ask you! you couldn't make it up! Of course you are a bike thief if you have a nice line in natty flat caps 😯
"Thats a nice bike Sir. But..."
Looks a bit small for you?
Isn't that a womens bike?
Haven't you got shoes for those pedals?
Single pivots are a bit outdated 😉
Would sort out 90% of riders on stolen bikes!
So a man on a pink 456 - would this be suspicious? Seanodav - you reading this?
When they talked about doing this is edinburgh one of the criteria for suspecting someone was that they had no helmet. I ask you! you couldn't make it up!
Again it's probably either statistics (or as someone said, made up to hide the obvious statement "they look like they nicked the bike").
The average expensive bike owner has been conditioned by the evil capitalist governments who are funded by the helmet manufacturers into believeing they should wear a helmet. Bike thieves have nicked the bike to try and keep up with the capitalist society but not nicked a helmet.
Of course you are a bike thief if you have a nice line in natty flat caps
Prove it, I need to see this fact referenced.
I think that despite being a fully paid-up Guardianista bleeding-heart, I would like to see this rolled out more widely. The reason being that, as Lootenant says above, hardly any stolen bikes would be recovered if it wasn't for use of this tactic (albeit on a less widespread basis). You'd basically be restricted to bikes that turned up at the scene of another crime, or ones that were advertised for sale and spotted by the owner.
The common sense approach is a good thing but I'm not that convinced most of the bobbies have any these days!
To take something away from someone, they must need to prove it doesn't belong to them??
Think you're confusing reasonable suspicion (the grounds for stopping and searching someone or confiscating property) with reasonable doubt (the standard that has to be exceeded to convict someone of an offence).
I reckon that to be effective it would need to be backed up with a fair bit of training, or assigned to officers who were reasonably bike-savvy. Stopping someone for not having a helmet is clearly imbecilic (although I do like the idea of this happening to TJ), stopping someone riding on SPDs in Nike Airs may not be.
I just don't believe this is a power the police should have. They're essentially being allowed to pass judgement on whether or not a bike is stolen - this goes beyond their remit.
Stopping people not wearing helmets isn't that daft an idea though is it. While not wearing a helmet or any riding gear (eg gloves / cycling jacket) on an expensive bike doesn't always scream thief its a better indicator than someone on a similar bike clearly in riding gear.
If it means fixie fashionistas in funny trousers gettin stopped then i'm all for it!
They're essentially being allowed to pass judgement on whether or not a bike is stolen - this goes beyond their remit.
No it doesn't.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/your_rights/legal_system/police_powers.htm
Stopping people not wearing helmets isn't that daft an idea though is it. While not wearing a helmet or any riding gear (eg gloves / cycling jacket) on an expensive bike doesn't always scream thief its a better indicator than someone on a similar bike clearly in riding gear.
Outside of That London, I suspect this approach would lead to police giving grief to at least 50% of people on bikes.
Got stoopped riding a Raleigh clubman road ,with only the raleigh badge on the front, and raleigh bike stamped onto the seat stays, blue lights and sirens, they said they had a report of a bike being stolen, plod 1 looks at the bike, and says no thats not the one its a shimano 105, says so on the chain stay, the one we are looking for has big tyres, and is called an orange.
When i pointed out the bike was a Raleigh, and they made a raleigh Banana, and it was bright yellow he told me he wasnt stupid.
When I commute to work I hardly ever wear cycling clothing as its only 5 miles so there's no point. I don't always wear a helmet either. Would that be good grounds for stopping me seeing as I either ride a Ti Brompton or a bespoke 853 Salmon mudguarded road frame with Campagnolo. I do quite often wear a [i]Save Herne Hill[/i] cap though... ...and trouser clips
Sounds like a good idea to me.
Ha Fulwood! I regularly stopped at the lights at the junction at the top of Eastway and Watling Street Road on the way back in to barracks from a jaunt around Longridge and had assorted spotty yoofs on their rusty BMXs saying I had a nice bike and asking me how much it cost - told them I'd give them an answer if they could keep up with my Cav-like sprint (I wish) the last couple of hundres metres to the front gate of camp. If they could, the men with guns soon put them off any thoughts of trying to swipe my bike...
What has been stolen?
It was a poor choice of word and I I should have said what was missing and t was just a joke. Just leave it as I may have over stepped the humour mark...SORRY rachel if i did
It also seems to me anyone not dressed in nice riding gear will be more prone to getting harassed by the police. Much the same way that drug dealers that go about in 50 grad BMW M3s do. Then they pull up all the honest people driving old shonky cars who drive them because they can't afford a flash motor.
I would be we pissed off if a cop came asking me for proof the bike is mine and then taking it off me just because I can't be arsed carrying around the till receipt.
I got a phone call a while back, regarding a bass guitar I'd had stolen some time previously. The officer asked me how many strings it had, when I said 4 he said "oh, sorry, this one's got 6".*
Mind you, I would be equally useless if I was put in charge of car crime. "We're currently in pursuit of a.. car. Appears to be... blue"
*Yes I fully accept it's possible that they had just arrested the bloke out of Primus. Bit of a long shot though.
Seems like a reasonable plan, as long as common sense is applied (not always a police strong point IME).
Would that be good grounds for stopping me seeing as I either ride a Ti Brompton or a bespoke 853 Salmon mudguarded road frame with Campagnolo.
As if any self-respecting bike thief would be interested in either of them. 😛
Great idea, especially if combined with a free to user 'bike marking' campaign.
Last year out local police (in conjunction with Cycle Woking) ran a week long campaign of marking bikes with a tamper resistant bar coded sticker, my bikes are now linked to me via a police maintained database so proving ownership is pretty easy 🙂
It's a free country I swear.
Prove it's mine? Prove it isn't Mr Policeman.
....and no I won't carry an ID card or any other form of identity. Because it's a free country.
seth-enslow666 - Member
I would be we pissed off if a cop came asking me for proof the bike is mine and then taking it off me just because I can't be arsed carrying around the till receipt.
sounds like you'd also be so rude to the officer that you'd pretty soon escalate the matter into an arrestable offence anyway 😆
Seems like a great idea to me although does need some care in it's execution. As others have alluded to I'm sure it's mostly aimed just to get scrotes to admit they 'found it' and hand it over without a fuss. Hopefully if you look like a chav, are a teenager and riding what looks like an expensive or inappropriate bike you'll get stopped. I seriously can't believe the people that commute to work are worried about it.
They could probably recover a fair few of Bristol's stolen bikes by doing this in Southmead for a few days. Plus it acts as a deterrent, OK a lot of bike theft might be organised and they're broken up and sold off but a lot seem to be used as currency between scrotes (like a bag of weed for a full suss or something :p ) if people were too scared to ride them as police might stop them then their value would drop so some might not get nicked in the first place.
"Because it's a free country."
No it isn't. You're not allowed, for example, to drive at 100mph down my street.
Mr Agreeable - MemberNo it doesn't.
Depends on the definition of reasonable grounds though and i don't think not being able to produce a receipt is reasonable grounds. If they just saw you cut the lock off a bike on a sheffield stand that might though.
ransos - Member
"Because it's a free country."No it isn't. You're not allowed, for example, to drive at 100mph down my street.
Oh here we go.
Speeding is against the law.
Riding a bicycle is not.
I don't carry proof of purchase for my underpants either, do you want to confiscate them too officer?
Figure it out.
innappropriate bikes? Ooh so riding my 8" gnarr bike down the canal towpath is gonna get me nicked? oops
D0NK - Member
innappropriate bikes? Ooh so riding my 8" gnarr bike down the canal towpath is gonna get me nicked? oops
Unfortunately being a bellend is still not an arrestable offence so I reckon your safe for now........
phew
😆
Are people being dleiberately thick?
Mr. Chavy Scrote in shellsuit and nike airs riding a Trek Fuel EX9.9 with SPD pedals gets stoped.
Mr. Middle Class in a suit riding his titanium brompton (wtf?) or nichemonger steel racer to work probably wont be stoped.
And the article says the bikes aren't confiscated if you can't produce the recipt there and then, you're given aproducer which gives you a few weeks to turn up at the police station with ID and the recipt/owners manual/ebay add/whatever proof of ownership.
Unfortunately being a bellend is still not an arrestable offence so I reckon your safe for now........
refering to it as a "gnarr bike" shoud be though!
no I got it, not a bad idea I guess but could it be considered chav-ist? There's plenty of people I see and think hmm, you, on that bike, seriously? But it could just be someone nipping to the shops on their bling bike dressed however. I'm not sure if I have issues with police being able to stop you just coz you [i]look a bit shifty.[/i]Mr. Chavy Scrote in shellsuit and nike airs riding a Trek Fuel EX9.9 with SPD pedals gets stoped.
While riding I generally have enough lycra about my person to be firmly marked out as [i]cyclist[/i] (or possibly weirdo) I did get stopped once on my bike, it was midnight, I was a bit erm medicated and I had my gfs bank card with me, lucky escape there really.
oh and I lied, my bike hasn't got 8" of travel.
it may have gnar written on it tho 😳
I... ride a Ti [b]Brompton[/b]
You should be chucked in the back of the vayn and given a proper beating for that. 😡
Hmm, dunno about this. I'd imagine there could be potential for legal problems with such a scheme, no matter how well intended. There's the 'reasonable suspicion' thing, and 'you look a bit too scrotey/poor to own a bike like this' isn't really something that can be covered by RS I woon't have thought. I suspect Liberty might have a better idea on this than me, but people should have the right to move about without being treated as potential criminals.
titanium brompton (wtf?)
I know. Disgusting, isn't it?
Thin end of the wedge and all that....
Oh here we go.Speeding is against the law.
Riding a bicycle is not.
I don't carry proof of purchase for my underpants either, do you want to confiscate them too officer?
Figure it out.
You are not free to drive at 100mph down my street, and neither are you allowed to ride a stolen bicycle. A police officer may wish to speak to you if he or she reasonably suspects you of doing either of these things. Therefore it is not a free country.
Do you get it yet?
Ah, Elfinsafety is back. How is the head? Did sir have a few beers last night maybe?
Mr. Chavy Scrote in shellsuit and nike airs riding a Trek Fuel EX9.9 with SPD pedals gets stoped.Mr. Middle Class in a suit riding his titanium brompton (wtf?) or nichemonger steel racer to work probably wont be stoped.
Similar logic is what led to black people being stopped because they were driving a nice car. I don't know what the answer is!
WOAH THERE!
black people are allowed to drive cars? next thing women will be voting and gays will be allowed to celebrate their relationships with some kinda civil partnership!
will somebody please think of the children?!
(i like this idea if it reduces bike theft, but i'd probably like the idea less if i was being stopped and had my winter hack bike taken from me when i'm riding to the gym in tracksuit trousers and an old t-shirt)
Prove it's mine? Prove it isn't Mr Policeman.
A textbook example of What Not To Say. 🙂
Similar logic is what led to black people being stopped because they were driving a nice car. I don't know what the answer is!
No thats racism, prejudice against chavy scrotes is perfectly acceptable in my world.
Similar logic is what led to black people being stopped because they were driving a nice car. I don't know what the answer is!
It's not against the law to discriminate on the basis of fashion sense yet though (re. burberry caps)
I'm sure the few people on here complaining about civil liberties would soon change their tune if their stolen bike was returned to them.
Just out of interest how many people in favour of this have had a bike stolen recently, and how many against haven't? Suspect there's a neat looking Venn diagram to to drawn...
No thats racism, prejudice against chavy scrotes is perfectly acceptable in my world.
The principle is the same - you're stopping someone because of the way they look. As I said, I don't know what the answer is.
Just out of interest how many people in favour of this have had a bike stolen recently, and how many against haven't? Suspect there's a neat looking Venn diagram to to drawn...
I applaud the police for taking more action, but I'm not sure this is the best way of doing it.
Ah, Elfinsafety is back. How is the head? Did sir have a few beers last night maybe?
I coon't possibly comment.... 😳
I'm sure the few people on here complaining about civil liberties would soon change their tune if their stolen bike was returned to them.
Might as well just arrest everyone because of crimes they might possibly have committed, then?
No?
See, the problem with something like this is, if the police do stop someone and seize their property, that person may well have grounds to argue against 'reasonable suspicion' and then you've got another problem. You stop me and take my bike, ruin my day, make me miss my train/appointment etc, you better bloody well be able to prove 'reasonable suspicion' or I'm having you up on harassment dirty babylon.
The principle is the same - you're stopping someone because of the way they look.
this is not the case, they're stopping someone because they look like they're riding a stolen bike - not, for example, because they have a big nose and big nosed people steal more bikes (true fact).
there is a difference.
As I said, I don't know what the answer is.
Probably something along the lines of:
[b]Repressive fascist state funded babylonian/Law enforcement officer[/b] (delete as preferred) "Excuse me Sir, we're looking into bicycle theft locally, could I ask if you have any proof that you own that bike or have permission to ride it"
[b]STW liberista[/b] "You'll never take me alive cozzer, I has rights innit [throws policeman the Vs and tries to make getaway on woefully undergeared SS]"
[b]Normal person[/b] "Sorry officer, not with me right now, but I do have receipts and details at home, also have plenty of pictures of me riding/racing/posing on it I could show you"
Which response do you think is going to get a polite "Thank you Sir, that's fine" and which is going to get a lot of hassle (subsequently whinged about on t'inernetz) ?
People ask for common sense from the Police, but it cuts both ways doesn't it........
this is not the case, they're stopping someone because they look like they're riding a stolen bike - not, for example, because they have a big nose and big nosed people steal more bikes (true fact).
there is a difference.
It depends how you do it. If someone riding an expensive bike is stopped because they're wearing a burberry cap, that's little different to stopping someone driving an expensive car because they are black. I guess what I'm saying is they could probably enforce this with some knowledge and common sense, but it's a big "if".
no you are stopping someone because they appear to not "look right" on the bike they are riding
How would you tell a bike looks stolen from it being ridden down the road?
Magic eyes?
Probably something along the lines of:
If you're going to use the word "probably", it's best not to follow it with an improbable scenario born in your over-active imagination.
STW liberista "You'll never take me alive cozzer, I has rights innit [throws policeman the Vs and tries to make getaway on woefully undergeared SS]"
😆
no you are stopping someone because they appear to not "look right" on the bike they are riding
Let's be honest, this applies to most STWers really, dun't it?
Magic eyes?
you know what I mean, I'm not getting drawn into an argument over semantics.
you know what I mean, I'm not getting drawn into an argument over semantics.
I don't know what you mean. How does someone look like they're riding a stolen bike?
ransos - Member
If you're going to use the word "probably", it's best not to follow it with an improbable scenario born in your over-active imagination.
"....tries to make getaway on woefully undergeared SS"
You're right of course, that would never happen, not ever, at all....
Another point: if you've got a bike and don't have anything that would prove ownership (such as a record of the serial number, a detailed description, or even a photo of the wretched thing) how do you expect to be able to prove it's yours if it gets stolen and then recovered?
You're right of course, that would never happen, not ever, at all....
Exactly. I, for example, wouldn't be seen dead on a SS.
Next!
you know what I mean, I'm not getting drawn into an argument over semantics.
I know the point you are making but I reject it. I cannot see how you can stop someone without Pre-judging [using prejudice] them as you cannot tell a bike is stolen by looking at the bike ergot you must look at the rider and judge.
I see the point you are tryin gto make thiough but hopefully yo see th eproblem with it...how can we implement this fairly
And I bet in a town the size of Preston many of the people stopped will already be known to the police.
I live near Preston, and have a bright pink bike.
I'm f--ked then.
Elfinsafety - Memberno you are stopping someone because they appear to not "look right" on the bike they are riding
Let's be honest, this applies to most STWers really, dun't it?
'ello, 'ello, 'ello - scuse me Sir, you seem to be looking like a right wrong'un and riding that there bicycle in a manner most inappropriate, I'm going to 'ave to stitch you up like the proverbial kipper and take you back to the station for a proper good kickin'
Acceptable documentationAcceptable documentation regarding ownership is a receipt, a photograph of the rider on the bike seized, a house insurance document/bicycle insurance document that has the bike listed or a bank statement showing the purchase of the bike from a cycle shop. [b]Lancashire Police said that inquiries could also be carried out with the shop that the bike was bought from to confirm ownership[/b].
How's your Spanish fellas? 😆
Love the bit of Old Skool racism at the end! 😆