Full fat eebs and technical riding?

Beware the Boost / Turbo button ! 😁Catch you unawares have you in the undergrowth if you aren't paying attention 💪

Riding my Orbea Rise up a narrow gulley on the Quantocks yesterday flipped to Boost just to clear it , little too much on the pedals into the side of the gulley and stop ! That's only half fat , had it for 18 months still continues to reward if you aren't paying attention 😁

My experience and I am not that good or techy rider:

Its astonishing what you can climb on an ebike  I can ride up stuff I do not have the power to get up on a non ebike and the extra power makes getting up over rocks much easier so for me technical bits on climbs are much easier

Downhill the extra weight is really noticeable on trails where you need to move the bike around and I get home with aching shoulders.  the bike is much less agile.

better riders / folk with more upper body strength might not find this

A lot of the guys at Risca are riding big heavy full fat Eebs and they don’t seem to have too much trouble going down the trails at a rate of knots.

Although the official off piste trails aren’t generally that tight there tbh - and looking at videos on YouTube the likes of Network R are mostly about how flipping steep they are as much as anything.

I do find the extra weight a bit disconcerting on the steep techy descents - arse over the back wheel stuff. They don't want to slow down so much. Better riders than me seem to cope fine though.

Everything else it's fine

I did find though, after being clipped in for years, I was having too many comedy (sometimes painful) sideways falls. The extra torque when climbing slippy rocks, or rooty sections, means the rear wheel can spin out a lot easier and you're down in a flash. Much happier on flats

It does take a little bit getting used to with the extra weight. 

I did an ebike specific “steep and technical” course at the golfie with dirt school and it helped me a fair bit. 

i think they're great on techy trails and descents in particular, the extra weight gives them great traction and personally think it makes the suspension feel more active (could all be in my head though).

i'be had 2 - a trek rail full 29 er, which could be a bot of a handful on tight twisty tech because of the larger wheels and wheel base, and my current levo mullet,  which I think is one of the best handling bikes i ever owned in the past 30 years (that could just be the geo & fit rather than the e-bikeness of it). had the levo out in the al[s on some steep techy stuff in la thuile and it was brilliant and often take it to wharncliffe etc. I choose the levo over the nomad for the steep techy stuff as it just feel more planted and holds a line better, which i'm convinced  a large oart of it is the additional weight

you'll have to work harder to move the bike about though, and there's a bit of a learning curve about re-adjusting your braking spots and speed management, but for me the pros outweighs the cons

Round my end of Calderdale the lads are riding the steep stuff on full fat eebs. They do admit that on the really extreme end of stuff, the combined weight of them and the bike means that some trails are harder unless conditions are perfect. These lads are proper talented.

The flipside being that they can keep nipping back round for another lap, so they get plenty of practice.

I've also noted that its opened up areas of woodland that was previously deemed to short a run to bother building on. The fact that its so easy to get back up means that they can fill a whole hillside with lines and get 5 to 10 different trails in, (whether this is a good thing is obviously debatable).

I'm still old fashioned so I quickly get bored of climbing/pushing up the same hillside.

Tweed Valley

if numbers alone are anything to go by, you’ll be fine

As above, the extra weight and therefore grip, is a big bonus I find. My Rail is also my smallest bike in terms of reach, I think that helps keep it a bit more agile. It'll still do plough because of the weight, I think there's definitely an argument for a slightly smaller full fat than other bikes. 

Full fat ebikes are just different to a regular enduro bike in terms of downhill handling, better in some ways, worse in others, but you get used to it quickly. I found that you feel the extra weight under braking , ie they dont quite decelerate at the same rate as an equivalent non ebike, and it takes a more deliberate move to make the bike change line, or lift the front end, or hop the back etc. BUt the flip side is that on rough trails the suspension feels like it works way better than the lighter bike, and you can just plough through stuff easier.

I switched from full fat to a lower powered and lighter ebike because I preferred the agility of the lighter bike, vs the plough of the heavier bike

My middle aged mincer view

Uphill - fantastic fun. Grip is a balancing act with power. When new to e-bikes the speed at which you go up stuff you are pleased to clean without a dab on a regular bike is just grin inducing.

Downhill - All that weight pushes the front which is disconcerting but you get used to it. Best have good brakes.

Flat/rolling - Exactly how the power kicks in can take you by surprise coming out of turns depending on what settings you have for the motor.

Tweed Valley local here and have no concerns about riding my Levo on any of the trails here.
The little bit of extra weigh of an eeb really isn't a problem and can be used to your advantage in some situations.

I also ride my pedal bikes on the same trails and it takes a matter of seconds to adapt to whatever bike i'm on.

If you come up to the valley give us a shout and you can have a rip down a couple of trails on mine.
It's set up for a 6 foot and 80KG rider.

Techie climbs are just easier.. especially with the overrun on the Bosch motor - when you get used to how that works, it amazing how much easier it makes things. ie, you kind of pre-pedal to get up techie bits, motor drives you that extra metre and you don't have to worry about pedalling.
First time I rode a full fat (Orbea Wild) on tech stuff in Spain, I could tell there was potential to ride stuff that I couldn't on my normal bike, but wasn't quite adapted to the technique, meant the occasional foot down was needed. I'd love to go back there now I've had some practice, but the fella who showed me the tech stuff and loaned me the bike has left the area 🙁

Mostly okay, but I find the weight on  downward-pointing, steeper, nadgery terrain disconcerting in a run-away train sort of way. It's fine on stuff where you're just ploughing through, less so on more subtle things where you're trying to modulate speed and steering. I'm sure people who are more used to big, heavy e-mtbs and better riders than me to start off with would find it less of an issue and if I rode an e-mtb more often, I'd probably be more used to it. I'd like to try something like a Spesh Levo or Kenevo SL. 

Uphill fine, though you need to be careful with boost - brakes are a useful modulation device...

better riders / folk with more upper body strength might not find this

you get conditioned and your body adapts. for the first 6 months i noticed this. now i dont. i do notice that i'm now on the last uplift at BPW rather than having to stop early as i couldnt hold on any longer/feel my arms. i've a desk jocky job, so upper body strength has never been my fortei

steep is great on the eeb. you need to brake a bit earlir/more on stuff you know well. new stuff you just need to take care like you would anyways.

the heavier the bike/ longer / bigger the wheels the less agile it is for defo.

i ride a Levo SL, it has landed on me a few times when I've come a slow speed cropper.  I have often wondered how the rider would fare in a higher energy tumble with a full fat version !

I have often wondered how the rider would fare in a higher energy tumble with a full fat version !

That's what I was thinking of TBH, heard a couple of stories of riders being nailed by their own bikes and needing to be extracted.

If you come up to the valley give us a shout and you can have a rip down a couple of trails on mine.<br style="box-sizing: border-box; --tw-translate-x: 0; --tw-translate-y: 0; --tw-rotate: 0; --tw-skew-x: 0; --tw-skew-y: 0; --tw-scale-x: 1; --tw-scale-y: 1; --tw-scroll-snap-strictness: proximity; --tw-ring-offset-width: 0px; --tw-ring-offset-color: #fff; --tw-ring-color: rgb(59 130 246 / 0.5); --tw-ring-offset-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-ring-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow: 0 0 #0000; --tw-shadow-colored: 0 0 #0000; color: #000000; font-family: Roboto, 'Helvetica Neue', Arial, 'Noto Sans', sans-serif, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, 'Segoe UI', 'Apple Color Emoji', 'Segoe UI Emoji', 'Segoe UI Symbol', 'Noto Color Emoji'; background-color: #eeeeee;" />It’s set up for a 6 foot and 80KG rider.

Very gracious ta, likely to be buying before I'd be up again though. Current deals look v tempting and may never be that cheap again.

Me and the boys were just talking last night about a thursday night mission up to rivi in the next couple of weeks. If you fancy popping over and having a go there's a SC Bullit and a Scott Ransom you could have a go on. They're both ridiculous machines which has led me to order an Orbea Rise to try and keep up with em!

I’m not great at super techy riding but I’m definitely no worse at it when I’m on my Levo vs my previous full-sus bikes.

The thing I most notice about it is how much more stable it is, so it’s harder to knock off line, and thus less work for the rider in that respect. Conversely it requires more effort to make it change direction but not to a crazy degree - yes it might be over 50% heavier than a normal bike but it’s not that big an increase in weight to the whole bike+rider system.

There’s a lot of grip from how well the suspension works so it’s easy to go up a brake disc size to stop it feeling like runaway train - I’ve got 220/200 on mine with Hope Tech 3 V4 brakes.

I agree that I’m not that keen on it falling on top of me but I’ve never ridden another bike that seems as keen to keep me on top and its tyres doing what I want.

I find them crap for trail centre flat stuff as you tend to be faster than the motor assist and you notice the weight.

But they're great down steeper stuff, dh tracks etc. The weight really makes the suspension work. Dont notice the weight in terms of agility, jumping etc when you're up to speed. Only when trying to brake late and unexpectedly i find the weight an issue!
Sort of an older downhill bike if you like.

And you get more riding!

Me and the boys were just talking last night about a thursday night mission up to rivi in the next couple of weeks. If you fancy popping over and having a go there’s a SC Bullit and a Scott Ransom you could have a go on. 

It would be awesome to take one down one of the rut tracks, yeah 🙂

Sort of an older downhill bike if you like.

A friend who has one compared it to riding a Kona Stinky 😀

My GF does often comment (on certain tracks) that she feels the bike is "taking" her down the trail rather than her in full control. It might be a confidence thing or maybe related to weight (she is 70Kg on a Merida e160 that is probs 25 Kg).

Jeez, not that bad! You dont need a ladder to get on them to start with!

I find them crap for trail centre flat stuff as you tend to be faster than the motor assist and you notice the weight.

But they’re great down steeper stuff, dh tracks etc.

^^^^^Pretty much sums my thoughts up
Also great for getting a ride in when you haven't got much spare time, whack it on turbo and go flat out for an hour, surprisingly hard work and I end up aching in places I never have on a normal mtb

it makes the suspension feel more active (could all be in my head though).

It changes the relationship between unsprung mass (Wheels, swingarm sliders/lowers), sprung mass (frame, battery, motor, stuff) and the rider (who may also be sprung mass, or maybe not, depending on how they are moving around on the bike, its complicated). So it's almost definite that the suspension will be working more, and on a reasonably well specced and set up bike, it'll probably work "better". For a given value of better.

And Danny MacAskill seems to manage alright doing techy stuff on his EEBs.

You dont need a ladder to get on them to start with!

Ha. Just might need a forklift if you have to get over a fence.

And Danny MacAskill seems to manage alright doing techy stuff on his EEBs.

Yeah, people often compare my riding to Danny Mac's so I'm sure I'll be fine, eh? 😉

I wonder how many motors have been tuned to cut out at a higher speed?

Mostly okay, but I find the weight on downward-pointing, steeper, nadgery terrain disconcerting in a run-away train sort of way.

This.
Especially on wet slidey rocks (e.g. lakes slate)
As soon as tyres start sliding it's very difficult to bring back under control compared to a normal bike.
Due to its lower weight & momentum, normal bikes can often find the grip that will arrest the slide where on an eeb it isn't possible.

And Danny MacAskill seems to manage alright doing techy stuff on his EEBs.

Seen the way the riders control em on the EWS-E racing?! Phenomenal 😀

I've had one big crash on my beast, luckily I managed to land on soft mulchy ground and stay away from the bike! Escaped with a few scratches on my arm. 🙂

It's only a few kilos difference. Yes, it does make a difference but it is a small one in the scheme of things, not like a motorcycle that outweighs you by a significant amount

I would say a couple of minutes down a trail & you will be used to it. I don’t notice any down side to it on steep techy stuff. It’s different, but not in a bad way.

The only time I ever have an ‘oh sh*t’ moment, is when I’m trying to be a hero & be the last of the late brakers, but that’s a me issue.

Thanks for all the responses, it's really good to have a spread of experiences like that and it's reassured me a bit.

On the other hand, does anyone find they make local trails a bit dull?

On the other hand, does anyone find they make local trails a bit dull?

You're now on the perilous edge of the precipice beyond which your perfectly reasonable and on topic thread descends into a generic, repetitive argument about whether Satan rides e-mtbs or they're the inevitable future which will envelop us all like a run-away steam-roller - with added hyphenation.

However, my take is that it subtly changes the rhythm of local rides. Because the climbs where you'd normally spend a fair bit of time contemplating the universe and everything can - note, 'can' not 'must' - be dispensed with effortlessly, it can feel like the entire ride happens on some sort of bizarre fast forward setting. You can also hit level stuff fast enough to make it disconcertingly 'interesting'.  I also don't really like the motor noise, it's a bit like having your own personal drone at all times.

Edit: so not 'dull' I guess, but definitely 'different'. You can, of course, ride all the climbs and flattish bits in eco, which slows things down again, but then you wonder why you're riding an e-bike in the first place. Chiefgroovegnu will pop up shortly to humble-brag about how he climbs on group rides with his motor turned off and can toss a 60lb bikes over a deer fence with one hand, while making pan-cakes with the other... 😉

But I guess it depends on your local trails tbh. Mine are classic Dark Peak stuff. I suspect if your local trails are gently undulating and some of the fun is from battering yourself hard enough to ride them fast and neat, then maybe. All imho, ymmv etc.

On the other hand, does anyone find they make local trails a bit dull?

It makes them short, so what used to be a big ride becomes a small one, and what used to be an epic ride just becomes a regular after work blast.

Haha, hope I'm not opening a cab of worms asking that. This thread has been very positive and helpful so far.

My local trails are Rivington and the west Pennine Moors so similar to the Peak District in places, with tracks in the woods as well.

There are sure to be ebikers here who ride there actually.

It makes them short, so what used to be a big ride becomes a small one, and what used to be an epic ride just becomes a regular after work blast.

But you can do 1,200m ascent when you'd normally do 500m, yeah?

But you can do 1,200m ascent when you’d normally do 500m, yeah?

Yes, exactly that

s, exactly that

Sorry that was a stupid question really.

Do I remember right that you had a Fuel exe or was that someone else?

How do you find that, if it was you?

But you can do 1,200m ascent when you’d normally do 500m, yeah?

Yep. Also I find myself riding climbs in particular that I wouldn't bother with on a non-assisted bike. And odd stuff like some of the undulating, stepped, slabbed tracks below Kinder that are quite dull and slow on a normal bike, but become oddly amusing ridden at full chat on an e-mtb. Also, there are various footpaths I can't be doing with because repeatedly lifting 60-odd lbs of awkwardly shaped e-mtb repeatedly over stiles gets a little irksome.

Sometimes ride some of my normal routes in reverse too. I don't obsess about how much ascent I've done or how much ground I've covered though. I'm more interested in just being out on a bike, but yes, you can cover more climbs in the same time if you want to.

Do I remember right that you had a Fuel exe or was that someone else?

Yep, that's me.

I've also got a full fat orbea wild fs, I had the orbea first, owned it for a couple of years then bought the fuel exe.

I pretty much only ride the fuel exe these days, the orbea has become a spare ebike for use when the fuel is out of action, which so far has been once when the motor failed, I'd also use it if everyone else is on full fat bikes and it's a turbo all the way round kind of ride.

I like the fuel, it's a decent bike, less tank like than the orbea, more agile, but definitely less powerful and more effort to ride. There are things that the orbea can ride up that the fuel (and my legs) doesn't have to torque to do. The fuel also won't keep up with a full fat ebike if the rider on the full fat ebike is putting a fair bit of effort in.

I like the near silence of the motor on the fuel, I think I would find it hard to go back to a regular sounding motor, and the fact that I can lift it over stiles and gates without much more effort than a regular enduro bike, I also like how it's more agile than the full fat bike, I find it easier to change lines, lift the front or back wheel etc.

It's also a very versatile bike, you can run it with no battery at all and there's no noticeable resistance from the motor or significant extra weight (2kg heaver than a normal enduro bike), or you can run it on solely the range extender battery and can a small amount of assist. The range extender is allowed on planes so you can take it abroad and whilst it won't be like riding a full ebike when abroad you can still get a bit of assist from it, depending on how far you need to make the battery last.

Ideally the rear suspension on the fuel would be a bit more progressive in my opinion, but it's fine as it is, it is quite hard to find the sweet spot in setup between blowing through the travel and never getting near full travel.

The first fuel frame I had cracked and was replaced under warranty, and also the motor failed, that was all in the first 3 months of ownership, the replacement frame and motor has been fine for nearly a year now.

On the other hand, does anyone find they make local trails a bit dull?

They definitely can, but can also make trails that would be dull on a normal mtb a lot more fun. My ebike is heavy (over26kg) but it makes techy climbs that I wouldn't even think about on an mtb great fun, I now regularly ride local stuff that I'd never bothered with before I bought it

“Chiefgroovegnu will pop up shortly to humble-brag about how he climbs on group rides with his motor turned off…”

Nowadays my singlespeed hardtail has become the group ride bike of choice. </fresh humble brag> 😉

“However, my take is that it subtly changes the rhythm of local rides. Because the climbs where you’d normally spend a fair bit of time contemplating the universe and everything can – note, ‘can’ not ‘must’ – be dispensed with effortlessly, it can feel like the entire ride happens on some sort of bizarre fast forward setting. You can also hit level stuff fast enough to make it disconcertingly ‘interesting’.”

This is all very true! Uphill singletrack suddenly has corners that weren’t there before and it’s very easy to understeer and run wide until you get used to it. It can feel quite strange having to do so much concentrating on riding in the right direction rather than just pedalling.

It makes you realise that there’s a nice rhythm to normal MTB rides, with the uphills being more like going for a run and the downhills being like playing a sport that’s more about skill than cardio fitness.

Thanks for the responses.

I guess a 625w battery with Bosch CX line motor would be more than adequate for a 78kg rider who's not averse to pedalling anyway?

Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?

Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?

I've found i just use the Eeb for specific days, but still 80% pick the manual. I'll be using both this weekend, the manual on Sat and the eeb on Sunday as an uplift bike.

This may change in summer, but i don't really want to ride every day currently. Today was Zwift instead as rainy and wet.

Mine is the Rise with the 500 ish battery and i get more even in boost all the time than my mate does on his 625w Rail 9.

I’ve found i just use the Eeb for specific days, but still 80% pick the manual. I’ll be using both this weekend, the manual on Sat and the eeb on Sunday as an uplift bike.

That's interesting, ta.

Does it feel like you're turning anywhere into an uplift venue? I do like the idea of that 😀

Does it feel like you’re turning anywhere into an uplift venue? I do like the idea of that

Yeah deffo. FoD/Dowies/Shutcastle has turned into a bit of a blast fest in some ways. Just head there, loop, loop, loop x 5-6 then head to the Fountain for beer. Not every day has to be a day out slogging (or not) trails and covering 40 miles for me, i'm more than happy doing 2 hours quick blasting trails, then hit the pub/cafe (or more often than not back to Pedalabikeaway to uplift the boy in the van)

Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?

I do a hundred miles a week on the road bike, so no. With regards to handling I had a few wee episodes at Tarland where I couldn't bring the rear around as quick as my old full sus. However that passed and I am getting the hang of it now. For multiple days/camps/getting to hills I will take my hardtail. Otherwise, it is the ebike.

Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)

I'm definitely riding more.

Tuesday and Thursday rides are for the hardtail and weekend tends to be an ebike ride where I can explore a bit to find new trails on my own or if in a group we'll go for a big ride.

Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?

No more rides but an e-bike ride will include more laps of fun downhill bits. I don't think there is much impact on my fitness either way but I don't solely ride e-bikes.

Does it feel like you’re turning anywhere into an uplift venue?

Pretty much that

I guess a 625w battery with Bosch CX line motor would be more than adequate for a 78kg rider who’s not averse to pedalling anyway?

Depends how far you like to ride but I would think so.  I have a 750 battery in mine and its range is better than I expected.  I wouldn't go any smaller on the battery

Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?

Depends. I’m sure you will have the honeymoon period where you are hammering the ebike & neglecting everything else, then you will slowly migrate back to a more balanced mix.

Personally, when I am time crunched, it’s the ebike for for me. I am fortunate enough to be able to do enough fitness stuff around work in the week that I am not really having to go out & do all day epics at the weekend, nor do I have the time to, as we both ride & need to fit it around childcare, etc.

You can work yourself as hard with one & not lose fitness, but I’d say 90% of people don’t. Sometimes I do, sometimes I’m cooked from a heavy week & just want to get out and smash some laps, so I let the bike do the work. It’s nice to have the choice.

Actually, it is rather up to you. I've happily stated what I do but I do know others whose ebike just means they aren't last up the climbs on mixed group rides and I'd suggest their fitness has slid a little further as a result. If they still have regular bikes in their garages that tends to be where they stay, gathering dust.

“Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?”

I don’t think it’s one or the other, I think it’s how you choose to ride the ebike, if you keep riding your normal bike and if you do any other fitness stuff. I’m sure it’s possible to keep your riding fitness by just riding an ebike and I’m sure it’s possible to lose most of your pedalling power and endurance from riding an ebike.

I don’t ride any more than before I got an ebike but I haven’t lost any fitness because I don’t want to lose any fitness (I’m trying to rebel against this annoying idea of getting old, I’m really not up for it!)

For my first few years of ebike ownership I used it for the vast majority of my rides, and it’s only recently I’ve gone back to riding a normal* hardtail for my local-ish group rides.

*If a singlespeed MTB is ever normal!

My experience is you have less of a say over what the bike does, but you get away with more, so it evens out

@oldfart … get the E-TUBE app and reduce the aggressiveness while keeping the max torque up in the boost setting. Better for setting off and to ramp in the assistance rather than getting caught out with initial pedal strokes in more technical stuff.

For full fat? If it’s “not steep enough” it’s hard to adjust to how the bike can slow when you choose not to pedal for corners or obstacles. Not keen. And when it’s “too steep” you soon feel the full effect of all the weight. Eep! Not for me for tech steeps… but you might be a far stronger bike handler than me… that’s not hard.

I did the first proper ride on my Rail at the weekend after using the Kenevo SL almost exclusively for the last 2 years and definitely noticed the extra weight over the KSL; the Rail was harder to turn, hold a line and stop. That said, the climbs were much more fun. As to whether or not it's a workout, here's my HRM readout;

I suspect most of the Zone 5 time was fear rather than effort though... 🤣

Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?

Definitely do more rides and often further.

You do lose some bike fitness though, hence I'm making myself go out on a leg powered ride once every week where I can

I’ve rode mine plenty times on all styles of steep techy trails and it coped really well

the weight is something you find is hard at first,braking sooner

most weekends I ride the Tweed valley etc and love the quick climbs and more trails

even rode the Fort Bill DH track on mine

My experience is you have less of a say over what the bike does, but you get away with more, so it evens out

Haha.

Some more interesting comments thanks, it seems like you need to be clear about how it's gonna fit into your riding and whether it's "instead" or "as well".

Personally I'd like to think I'd still keep riding my short travel trail bike plenty, but that my chonky enduro bike might see more occasional use.

I imagine there's more chance of one of the half-fat eebs becoming "instead".

I guess if you always ride a full-power ebike on steep trails which aren't super long then you could let your cardio fitness drop and it not affect your riding significantly. But I think for most of us, even if we were to just ride ebikes all the time, having good cardio fitness makes the downhills more fun too. Obviously that requires putting the effort in to keep that fitness which for some people will outweigh the positives when they've got a motor to get them back up the hill.

“Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?”

I definately ride more. an hour ride is a feasible timeframe for a decent number of laps. rather than 1 or 2 pushups and descent. Previoulsy I wouldnt bother going out for just an hour on the normal mtb. now i do.

I am no less fit from having hte eeb - i was suprised, i built a single speed up in the summer (after about 1.5yrs eeb only) and it was totally fine to ride without being knackered. If you ride hard on the eeb its a workout - the weight helps with this!. even uphill if you pick the techy route up.

I think my trouble with the ebike is a good percentage of my rides are with leg powered (who I struggle to keep up with on a normal bike - regular riding, or not), so the general pace is slow for the ebike and I'm not working myself. I keep dropping the power - 18% assist generally now, but sometimes I'm just turning the pedals while they are blowing

Have you lot found you really do more rides? Or just ride the eeb instead (and maybe lose fitness)?

Na, I ride quite a lot anyway and mostly the Levo gets saved for recovery days, which it's really good for - you can riding interesting trails and stay at a really low HR if you want to. I did a group ride with unassisted mates last year where my average HR was around 105bpm - and days when I just feel a bit lazy.

Then again, I'm not a very typical e-mtb rider. I only have the thing as it was a brilliant training aid when I had long covid, sort of a bridge between walking and riding mountain bikes again. There's an aftermarket Specialized app called BLEvo which allows you to set a HR target and makes the bike automatically adjust assistance levels to keep you in that area - a sight more fun than Zwift.

Tbh, I should probably ride it more often than a few days a month, but there you go. It just depends on you really. The only thing that was stopping me riding was being ill or convalescent, so at that point, yes, the e-bike was the only way I could be out on the trails. But once I was a bit more normal, I just rode my non-assisted bikes. I think I might have said it earlier, but the Levo and Kenevo SLs would probably be more up my street, though I can't begin to justify spending that much tbh.

"I keep dropping the power – 18% assist generally now, but sometimes I’m just turning the pedals while they are blowing"

Maybe you could try treating it like interval training? So reduce the power even further (or turn it off) and then when your legs/lungs are about to give up and you're about to lose the group, then up the assistance to give yourself a rest. You could also have a go at steep/technical climbs that you can do on your normal bike and see how much of them you can do without assistance on the ebike, and just when you're about to stall/fail, then hit the power.